Commuting home on the Saluki raises bike etiquette question!

[Liesl]

Hi Riv Chicas y Chicos, Here's one to throw in the hopper! Yesterday
on my commute home, I was stopped close to the right curb at a light
for a busy cross-street (Hiawatha Ave at 35th st in Minneapolis for
you twin cities folk). I heard a horn behind me; not a blaring one,
just a can-I-get-your-attention one. I turned around to look, and a
bit behind me was a man on a bike who was square in the middle of the
right lane. Behind him was a woman in the car from whence the beep
came. She asked in a very reasonable tone if he could move over so
she could make a right turn. He replied no; the light was about to
change. Then there ensued a brief but escalating argument while the
light didn't turn green with the biker vocally refusing to move over
and the frustrated woman asking why he wouldn't just move over. I
refrained from turning around and watching the whole thing much less
getting involved. The light finally turned green. I, out in front,
sprinted across Hiawatha with the argument still going. The last I
heard was the man shouting over his shoulder in a sarcastic tone: "I'm
sorry I made you wait 40 seconds."

Curious to know what y'all think...would you have moved over? stood
your ground? In similar instances that I've been in, I know that I've
moved over and didn't think much about it.

The trees are leafing out here a full month early.

Liesl

[Peter Morgano]

Hmm, I often encount situations like this riding in NYC. The difference is that though I know what the laws are and the drivers dont I am still a dude on a 30lb bike and they are driving a 2 ton missle that can crush me like a bug.  I will usually err on the side of "courteousness" even though I will grumble under my breath about how I had the right of way or when some idiot honks at me for just having the audacity to rid on thier roads but again, they can kill us and we cant do much to them. I find this is especially true in NYC where the Village Voice has finally torn the lid off of a systematic plan by the NYPD to blame all bike related injuries and fatalities on bike riders and hardly ever if at all on the drivers of cars since the NYPD is not in favor of increased ridership advocated by the transportation commissioner Sadik-Khan.  So I would say, there is a time to stand your ground and a time to realize you are at the position of vulnerability and to just complain when you get home or on this list even.  I know there are people who will see this as being too capitulating but as a grown man with kids at home I have to prioritize safety over pride.

Liesl

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[PATRICK MOORE]

This is a pet peeve and concern of mine. First, the woman is an idiot,
as usual thinking that bikes don't belong, really, on the roadways.
Second, if you pull to the far right, you risk a fool making a right
hook just as you are moving off -- the one time I have been hit by a
car it was in such a situation. When people honk at me in such
circumstances, I point to the red light.

BUT!!! There is a way!! I, myself, pull out to the left side of the
lane at a red or sigh. This has two benefits: first, I prevent fools
from making tight right hooks around me. Second, it allows cars to
make rights without me getting in the way. In fact, I usually motion
right-turning cars to "go ahead." The downside, and this seems rare,
is for some fool to try to pass you going straight while he is on your
left.

The other solution is to say, "Pog Ma thoin" pron "poog MAhoon" and
meaning "Kiss my ass." http://www.irish-sayings.com/cats/irishwords/

I myself fancy the Ulster dialect.

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[Jay in Tel Aviv]

The driver was asking nicely?
I'd move over if I reasonably could.
If she was obnoxious about it I wouldn't hear her. My ears are funny
that way.

Jay

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[Jay in Tel Aviv]

To be clear, I would move forward and to the left.
Moving right would be dangerous.

Jay

[Lyle Bogart]

Like Patrick, I will always pull as far to the left as I safely can and, if I hear a vehicle come up from behind, will make eye contact and motion they're free to make a right. When the light changes, I get through as quickly as possible and move rightward.

 

Cheers!

 

lyle

On 21 March 2012 14:29, Jay <robi...@gmail.com> wrote:

The driver was asking nicely?
I'd move over if I reasonably could.

If he was obnoxious about it I wouldn't hear him. My ears are funny
that way.

Jay

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156 bradford rd

wiscasset, me 04578

207.882.6494

206.794.6937

[Ryan Ray]

I pull over to the left at red lights too.

- Ryan

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[Brian Hanson]

Same - but it depends on the intersection.  I tend to try to leave space to my right for a turning vehicle (or bike) if I'm heading straight.

Brian

Seattle

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[Cyclofiend Jim]

Mmmm... based on what you related, I'd have to fault the grumpy cyclist. 

Since we can turn right on red lights (generally) here in CA, any time I'm stuck at a stop light, I'll attempt to favor the left side of the lane (assuming I'm in the rightmost lane).  It's just seemed to be the appropriately polite action for my fellow road users.  I've even lifted the bike up and moved further left if a larger vehicle is behind me with their blinker on.

I just tend to try to do those things which don't get me run over.  For example, there are actually a number of places in my commuting/riding area where the prevailing traffic flow turns right in certain areas - for example a three lane section where 99% of the center lane traffic is turning right to access a freeway onramp.  When there I'll actively move to the leftmost lane if I get caught by the red light.

I dunno - just the way I'm wired - I just figure that I'm an ambassador when out on the roadway.  You don't have to (and arguably shouldn't) be passive in traffic.  But that seems a bit more confrontational than I'd be comfortable with.

- Jim

cyclofiend.com

[William]

I'm similar to Jim

Technically, isn't it flat-out illegal to occupy a dedicated right turn lane with your vehicle and then go straight?  From the original description it sounded like both the bikes were in a right turn lane and neither one of them actually turned right.  I think that's a no-no.  

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2012-03-21 at 11:13 -0700, Liesl wrote:

> Curious to know what y'all think...would you have moved over? stood
> your ground? In similar instances that I've been in, I know that I've
> moved over and didn't think much about it.

I never get close to the curb at an intersection like that. I generally
get in the middle of the lane with an eye out behind me for someone
signaling to make a turn; if there is someone signaling for a turn I
move left to leave them room.

And I am *NEVER* going to get into an argument/shouting match with a
motorist at a traffic light.

[Joe Broach]

On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 1:17 PM, Cyclofiend Jim
<cyclo...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Since we can turn right on red lights (generally) here in CA, any time I'm
> stuck at a stop light, I'll attempt to favor the left side of the lane

> (assuming I'm in the rightmost lane). [...]

This hasn't worked so well for me here in Portland. Either the driver
is hyper-polite and won't pass me to turn right even though there's
room, or else they're aggressive enough that they pull up to my right
to go straight, leaving me in a lousy spot. I generally just stick to
the center of the lane. I figure if I were in a car going straight
they'd be just as stuck.

On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 1:20 PM, William <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Technically, isn't it flat-out illegal to occupy a dedicated right turn lane

> with your vehicle and then go straight? [...]

Original poster didn't mention anything about a right-turn only lane.
Those are pretty rare in this neck of the woods. My opinion is the
motorist had no business honking and asking the cyclist to move. Maybe
the cyclist could have handled it better, but he may also have had
past experiences that justified his response.

Best,
joe broach
portland, or
http://cyclerslife.blogspot.com/

[Peter Morgano]

Now that I think about why this hasnt happened to me, we dont have any right turn on red here in NYC so really not an issue. Of course when I am going straight and see the guy next to me is turning I will eithe cheat up past his bumper so I can clear the intersection before he turns or hang back and wait for him to to turn if he seems aggressive or I cant get up into the intersection before him. 

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[Liesl]

"From the original description it sounded like both the bikes were in
a right turn lane and neither one of them actually turned right.  I
think that's a no-no. "

To clarify: There were two west-bound lanes, and the right-most lane
was/is not a dedicated turn lane, so the bikes were not doing a no-no
by proceeding straight. Also, it's legal to do a right-on-red in
Minnesota unless otherwise posted, and this light isn't posted no-turn-
on-red.

-liesl

[Anne Paulson]

Like the others, I would certainly not move to the right of
right-turning cars if I were planning to turn right. Nor would I wait
on the right edge of the road in a situation where I expected
right-turning cars. That is a recipe for being Right Hooked. When I'm
waiting at a light, I will move left to allow cars to turn right on my
righthand side, and motorists often do make a right turn from my right
side.

I often find myself more or less straddling the lane line between the
right-turn lane and the straight-through lane at less-busy
intersections, although at a busy intersection I'm more likely to just
take the rightmost straight-through lane, which in many cases is also
the lane right-turning cars would be in. If I can't find a safe place
that will allow me to be to the left of right-turning cars, well,
they'll just have to wait. I was there first.

I loathe honking drivers and idiot drivers who go around to my left to
turn right. In my opinion, cyclists should not encourage such
imbeciles.

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[Anne Paulson]

In that case, I would move left if possible. If not-- what would that
driver do if a car were ahead of her, waiting for the light? She
would wait for the light. And that's what she should do if the
cyclists can't safely allow her to pass on their right. And she should
shut up.

[William]

Sorry I missed that detail.  I've got a dedicated right turn lane on my commute home, so I deal with this particular maneuver daily.  

[Philip Williamson]

If I were a Riv Chico in this scenario, I would be farther into the road so that lady would have to pass to the right of me to turn.

If I were that guy in the scenario, I'd be right next to you, center or left of center. It seems weird to hang behind another cyclist.

If I were the lady in the car... I'd respect the cyclist's refusal to move. Arguing when someone refuses my request would expose my politeness as a simple tactic to get my way, not a show of respect for them.

 Philip

[David T.]

"And I am *NEVER* going to get into an argument/shouting match with a
motorist at a traffic light."

This sounds like an excellent policy, but seriously, how do you do it?
If someone honks at you and you are both sitting there, how do you
manage not to turn around and say a few choice words? I don't ask this
facetiously. What is your secret?

[Steve Palincsar]

"Say what? If you want to insult me, young fella, you're going to have
to speak up..."
;-)

[Bryan]

Funny. I did one of Jim's lift-a-bike-to-the-left moves just this
morning! I thought after such a dramatic display of accommodation, I'd
get a little wave or something from the motorist. Nope. That's
alright. Better than having someone seething behind me.