My trials and tribulations with upright bars

[Dave Small]

Hi all,

As I read more and more testimonials from people about how awesome their switch was to upright handlebars, I wanted to try 'em.  I like drop bars as long as they're saddle-height or higher, but there's a semi-conscious part of me that feels the teensiest-bit compelled to push drop-bar bikes just a little, and sometimes I want to just putz along and enjoy the scenery, and not even consider my speed or trip time.  Plus, as I get older I thought that uprights may be in my future anyway, so why not give 'em a shot now?

So, I took a Velo-Orange Polyvalent and replaced the drop bars with porteur bars.  It's okay, but I feel like I'm kinda caught between a forward lean and sitting upright, in a no-man's land of Tweenerville.  So maybe this isn't the right bike on which to test upright bars, I thought, so I converted a V-O Campeur from drop bars to V-O Left Bank bars.  Nope, I thought, not fond of this.  But those Albatross bars that everyone thinks is the bees knees?---let's try those on the Campeur!  It was better, and I thought it might actually be fine, but the more I rode it the less I liked it, so I swapped the bars back to drop and was reminded of what a great bike the Campeur is---with drops.  

Maybe those are the wrong bikes for uprights, I though, so I bought a Cheviot and set it up with Albatross bars, 'cause the Cheviot was designed for Albatross bars and Albas are the best, right?  Right?  Everyone says so, so it must be true.  As I was engaging in this experiment I thought to myself that would be the Gold Standard of Upright-Bar Setups, and if I don't like this then I must not like upright bars---but meanwhile I was sure it'd be good because everyone says it is.  

I don't like it.  A couple of days ago I took it out for what I'd intended to be a 13-mile trial ride to see how things went at that relatively short distance, and ended up going 24 miles.  That's a typical ride for me on a drop-bar bike, and know how I feel when I get home.  On the Cheviot I felt slow and never quite comfortable in a upright position, with the most natural feeling coming when I was stretched out (relatively speaking) and holding onto the bends that are furtherest toward the front.  But that's close to where the bends would be on a drop-bar bike, so in essence I was mimicking the position I'd be in on such a bike, and wasn't comfortable in the position in which the Albas were designed to put me.  Also, my hands got kinda numb and didn't work well; toward the end of the ride I tried to wave a car through an intersection ahead of me by waving my fingers, and they wouldn't bend.  I went a longer distance than I'd initially planned to on that ride because I thought maybe I needed more time or distance to acclimate to the Albas, but instead of things feeling better they felt worse as the ride progressed.  

With that background, I have 2 questions for the group:

1.  Has anyone else experienced something similar and then fixed it, for example by raising or lowering the bars or the angle of the bars or changing the stem extension?  There was a recent thread that indicated not everyone likes upright bars (which I read only after I'd built up the Cheviot), but it didn't get to my specific question about whether someone could convert from nonliker to liker of uprights by adjusting 'em.  

2.  Has anyone used drop bars on a Cheviot?  I know they're not designed for drops, but given that I liked the extended position the best, I'm thinking that drops might be more suitable for me than uprights.  And follow-up question:  Would drops on a Cheviot make it essentially a mixte Sam Hillborne but with longer chain stays?  I'm thinking yes, and I don't need to duplicate the 2 Sams I already have.  

Thanks in advance for any input on this.  I know I could continue to play with set-ups and hope to stumble across a solution, but I'm tired of that and about ready to give up on the Cheviot and am hoping to find a solution more efficiently than trial and error, if one exists.  If I can't get to liking the Cheviot then I'm gonna consider that I'm in the don't-care-for-uprights camp, but first wanted to eliminate the possibility that there's a simple solution I'm just not seeing.  

Dave

[William!]

I haven’t experimented nearly so widely, but this has been my experience riding upright as well. Closest I’ve come is with Alba bars on a tandem, but nothing I’ve tried is as comfortable as I am on above-the-saddle noodles.

[Deacon Patrick]

I can’t answer your question as I shifted from Albatross to the new Moustache (Albastache). The New Moustache is a bar you may want to consider. Curves are a semi-agressive forward position and the upright position offers varity based on how you set up stem length and height.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Kainalu V.]

I like albatross with a 13cm quill stem that's able to drop a bit lower than your threadless adapter will get you. It's what works for me on my Rosco, but I like semi upright tweensville.
-Kai
BK NY

[nash...@gmail.com]

I like upright bars.  I have surly open bars on my bike because they are wider.  I found I had a hard time being comfortable until I got a longer frame and a longer stem.  Comfort on a bike is a balance between your butt and your hands.  You are putting too much pressure on your hands and they are going numb.  You could move your seat back and more weight would be on your butt.  But if your seat is where you like it get a longer stem.  Drop bars and Upright bars put your hands in totally different positions if you use the same frame and stem then they will be super close to you.  And you won't be able to balance.  

[Patrick Moore]

I find that bars that are too high and too close affect me the same way: I feel awkward and as if I can't generate torque. We've discussed this at length before, but I have long "felt" (that's a metaphor; ideals are not "felt"; it's an intuitive mental grasp rather than the Cartesian clear and distinct) that one needs among other things a sufficient bend between hips and torso for comfortable riding, and I've also noted that some of the fastest feeling (literal) bikes I've ridden also fit the best; this regardless of weight and even to some degree tires.

After all, I don't believe that this design is an accident, however much it has been improved upon since it was first conceived.

Note that there is also the matter of back, neck, and hand comfort; some have found a  more forward position more comfortable. But for sit up and beg:

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[Michael Rivers]

I have drop bar bikes, and albatross bikes. On my drop bar bikes (Quickbeam, old steel Bianchi, Colnago Master), I know how many miles I travel, because that is the point. On my alba bikes (Cheviot, AHH), I never know how many miles. I am far more concerned with making sure I remember to put my lunch and photo equipment in the bag or basket.

Specific differences between the bikes are gearing, which is lower and, pedals, which are always flat, and saddle which is always a bit wider on the alba bikes. I also prioritize flat resistance for tires on the alba bikes.

My alba bikes are never as fast as my drop bar bikes, but they are more comfortable. Saddle width and distance from the stem are different between the two. The length of the stem, for me is always 2-3 cm longer, even on a bike made for Alba’s. The angle of the Alba’s and the grips ( I like ergons) can also make a difference. Shifting on Alba’s is thumb or bar-ends. It did take some time for me to set up the Alba bikes after building drop bar bikes for years.

I’m 58, and the Cheviot is my bike for the next 30 years.

Good luck with your journey.

Michael

[Palmer]

Hello Dave,
Upright is relative. I ride “upright” bars, Soma Oxford, VO porteur ,and sunlight alloy touring. It is all about back angle for me. Because the bars come back a lot, I have shifted to very long stems and longer top tubes than my drop bar bikes. I check the bike coop regularly and scored a 150mm and 140mm last week. The back hand position is even with or a little forward it the head tube. This is comfortable all day and leaning in enough to feel powerful and efficient. Yesterday was really windy, 20-25 from the south. Going north was sitting up on the ergon grips and fast feeling. Return trip into teeth of the wind I was on the bends with slightly bent elbows and feeling fine. Still a hard ride in the middle of winter in Michigan, but enjoyable. A low stem, not necessarily slammed helps too.
I have ridden group rides with the Oxfords and did fine even in front. Sitting up behind a big guy almost feels like cheating because I am so comfortable.
Good luck on the quest, ride what you enjoy.
Tom Palmer
Twin Lake, MI

[RonaTD]

On Sunday, January 21, 2018 at 2:16:13 PM UTC-6, Dave Small wrote:
> 1.  Has anyone else experienced something similar and then fixed it,

> 2.  Has anyone used drop bars on a Cheviot?
>

Sounds VERY similar to my own experience. I’ve been thinking about writing a post on this, following the earlier thread on upright riding. I first tried Albatross bars on a Quickbeam and didn’t like the way it handled (squirrely front end). We also have a CoMotion Periscopa tandem that has Albatross bars because it’s our “kids and guests” tandem so gets used by people of widely varying sizes, and it works well for that.

I have gone through a number of iterations with my Cheviot, today being iteration number 6 or so. I just took drop bars (on a short Dirt Drop stem) off of it and replaced them with VO Belleville. Haven’t gone anywhere on it, yet, but initial feel is “wow are these narrow!” I’ve now tried Albatross, Choco, Mustache, and drop (Nitto 176) with a variety of stem lengths and heights, ranging from a bolt upright (think Dutch) position to something close to my normal road bike position.

I bought the Cheviot intending it to be my daily commuting bike. It’s an 8.5 mile mostly flat, half on a bike path route with a small amount of “urban” riding at one end. Here on the shores of Lake Michigan, though, there is always the wind. And, like Dave, I find the Cheviot to be very hard to ride. Objectively, measured over many rides, the bike adds around 5 minutes to what is normally around 35 minutes, much more if using upright bars and there’s a headwind. Coming home last week, riding with a guy I occasionally meet on the commute, he dropped me like a rock on the little hill near home. Normally I can keep up with him with a bit of effort. Yeah, snow tires don’t help, but it wasn’t just that. The Cheviot simply doesn’t reward you for pushing harder on the pedals. On the contrary, it makes my knees hurt when I try to ride it like my other bikes. It’s plenty comfortable as long as you don’t try to accelerate. Slow, steady, build up momentum over time, and it’s fine. My commute is just long enough that most days I want a more sprightly ride. The riding position with drop bars and a short stem is nice and familiar, and I’m sure I could ride a long distance comfortably with it but I’d be working harder than on my other bikes. All that said, the Cheviot is great for running errands, and a more upright position for that is just fine. I’m trying the Belleville bars because I find Alba and Choco to be too wide. The Belleville might be a bit to much the other direction - we’ll see!

As for commuting, I’m in the fortunate position of having a Terraferma Corsa 650B that I replaced with a Waterford ST for brevet riding. The Terraferma is brilliant for commuting - handles my backpack on the front rack perfectly, low BB, cushy tires, very responsive frame for sprinting to make a light.

Ted Durant
Milwaukee, WI USA

[Antone Könst]

I used to have a 62 Surly CC with Albas, and had the same problem you're having...uncomfortably in-between.  Sadly (and luckily?) it was stolen, and I got a 60cm Cheviot that I use for long rides and commuting, with the largest (58?) boscos and bar tape on the flat part by the stem.  Against wind or on long distances I drop to that, which is about level with my seat, and otherwise I'm up with my hands about 4 inches above my seat, very very comfortable either way.  I think try the Boscos so you can get your hands UP and BACK, so you are truly upright, and get them wide enough to fit your shoulders, and importantly get a different seat.  Yours looks great for drops but if your hands are above your seat I'd get the C19, which really changed my comfort sitting upright, as most of the weight is on the saddle, but doesn't become uncomfortable when i drop down. 

If you try drops on the Cheviot tho I'd be curious to hear about it...sometimes I rest my hands on my basket, about where the bottom of drops would be, when I'm really tired and upwind. 

[lconley]

I have tried albatrosses and boscos on a variety of bicycles, as well as basically flat horizontal bars (Nitto Jitensha) as well as bullmooses on a variety of bikes, Sam Hillborne, Betty Foy, Bombadil, Clementine, a couple of different kind of Roscoes. The only really comfortable bike with uprights is the Clementine with bullmoose boscos. I have been riding drops since 1970 (I turn 62 this year) and it could be that I am just used to them. It could also be that my body proportions are several standard deviations from the norm - I am 6’ tall with a 83.5 PBH - short legs, long torso - the upright bars just seem too close - I find myself gripping the bars forward of the brake levers. I like the flat bars on some bikes until I start doing distance. I am currently converting my Bombadil from bullmoose to randonneur drops.

Laing

[Lester Lammers]

I'm 65 and got a 55cm Cheviot 15 months ago as my old man's paper boy bike. It has been frustrating to get it dialed in. Being bolt upright was not for me. This helped: http://zedmartinez.com/category/personal/biking/ So did the recent posts here on the subject. I won't go intp all the iterations I tried but I *think* I have settled on 58cm Bosco bars with Dia Comp stoker knobs, saddle back more than a drop bar bike and a 130cm Nitto Talus stem. The wider bars, longer stem, more weight on the front wheel, seem to make steering snappier and the knobs are handy for cruising. It's my first upright frame in 50+ years and is now growing on me.

Since you have the threadless stem converter you could try flipping the Albas with a VO stem with a 17 degree rise. I have a 120cm that I can send you.

On Sunday, January 21, 2018 at 3:16:13 PM UTC-5, Dave Small wrote:

[Deacon Patrick]

This is a nuanced thought I’m not sure how to best convey, but riding between my new Moustache’s curves and more upright shifts how my core is engaged. I suspect if you live/ move in a way that has your core strong one way but not the other, it makes perfect sense that one would feel better than the other. This is all conjecture on my part, but if the core is more fully strong and well ballance in it’s strength, perhaps that would make both positions more comfortable?

With abandon,
Patrick

[Chris Lampe 2]

I've put a set of albatross bars on almost every bike I've had in the past few years, including one with the same geometry as some current Rivs, and no amount of tweaking could make them feel good or even bearable.  I think upright, pullback bars just aren't for everyone.  I say this as someone who really, really wanted to like them.  

On Sunday, January 21, 2018 at 2:16:13 PM UTC-6, Dave Small wrote:

[Eric Karnes]

I'm another rider who really, really wanted to like the feel of albatross bars as much as I love the look. But alas, after trying them on three Rivendells and multiple other bikes, I have to admit that they just ain't for me. When it comes to upright (i.e. non-drops), I seem to prefer the 45 degree angle of Jones Loop or Ahearne bars. As my long legs and T-rex arms won't allow me to use drops on any production bike I've yet come across, I've also had luck mimicking the hood position on a couple of other uprights, such as barends on a narrow flat bar or the front of VO Porteur bars. 

Good luck with the Cheviot!

Eric

[dstein]

I kinda went through something similar. I could never get it dialed in right. I had a cheviot briefly, a hunqapillar with a million different handlebar combos including albatross, an old rigid mtn bike I put Rosco's on, nothing really worked for me. I was riding around on a cruiser in Amsterdam for 3 days when I realized, it's not really the bike, it's the riding. At home I like to ride for recreation, but even for short errands I tend to go fast since in the US it's still a mile or 2 to run errands and you have to weave in and out of traffic and generally can go faster. When you're in a dense city where you can get everywhere you need in a few square miles and there's plenty of bike infrastructure, and everyone is going slow talking on their phones, checking email, toting a kid and grandma, it's just a whole different type of riding that lends itself really well to upright bars. Then I see pictures of Riv employees tearing it up in the nearby Shell Ridge open space on lunch....

[Surlyprof]

I'm right there with you, Dave.  My Hillborne came with Albatross bars and I never warmed up to them.  My old Bianchi was the swan song for drop bars for me.  The more upright riding is great for urban riding and as I've been getting older I was getting a little neck pain from drops.  I finally bit the bullet and dropped about $300 on a set of Albastache bars, brake levers and stem.  Absolutely love them!  They still provide the fast-ish-feeling lean that I missed from the drops but still enabled me to get a bit more upright when I wanted a new body position.  Lots of others say how they just can't get used to Albastache or get hand pain from them but I feel the same about Albatross.  The past year I've had to go back the Albatross bars because of a shoulder ailment and, although it is a very nice set up (Paul levers and thumbies and beautiful Brooks slender grips), I desperately miss the Albastache.  As soon as I get the time to convert back, I will.  You may want to try a set.  They are in between, but in a good way.  They feel somewhere between Albatross, Dirt Drops and straight bars to me.

John

On Sunday, January 21, 2018 at 12:16:13 PM UTC-8, Dave Small wrote:

[tc]

Great pic here of a Blue Lug Chev with Albastache bars.  Looks pretty cool to my eye....

My first Sam had Albatross bars.  Comfortable, but I felt kinda "pokey" after riding around for 10 min.  I'd sit up for a while, then find myself slipping forward into the curves so I could turn it up a notch -- but that wasn't the best hand position on those bars for a lengthy ride.  My wife rode it and loved it, and it became her Sam.

I ordered another Sam for me with Noodles with bar ends, wrapped with the black cork tape that Riv sells, and love them.  They're set about a 1/4" above saddle height.  Very comfortable and of course many hand positions.

I'll be installing Albastache bars on the SimpleOne I got from group member Ben.  We'll see how that goes.  Live and learn...

Tom

[Dave Redmon]

You might find a sweet spot by flipping your Albatross bars upside down and placing your brake levers on the curves toward the front a la the Moustache and Albastache bars. Combined with a long stem, placing my hands forward near both levers provides fun control and the comfortable stretch I need most of the time. When I need to shift gears or just take a break in t'other direction, I grab the bar ends. I count three hand and wrist positions with my bars flipped in this manner. On longer rides (more than 40 miles) I prefer my second bike with drop bars. On a third bike equipped for errands, I have Ahearne-type bars with grips set at 45 degrees.

Dave in Kansas

[Garth]

Seems to me Dave all you are saying is that you experienced the fallacy of all the assumptions you bought into being "true". As you can see, truth is not relative to anyone or anything, truth is truth, Absolute, absolutely. Any idea to contrary the Absolute could only confirm the Absolute. It's like claiming "I am not". So it's not the fault of the frames, or the bars, or the stems, or even you..... there is no fault at all in truth ☺

[EasyRider]

I love my albatross bars but the key for me is

1: a long stem to let me lean forward, a little less than I would riding the hoods of a drop bar

2: using them for stop and go downtown commuting at a slow to moderate pace, and grocery getting. They are called cruiser bars for a reason.

[RichS]

Dave,

First, I have to say your Cheviot is gorgeous! With all the images of great looking Cheviots that have been popping up here I'm trying hard to resist the temptation to jump in. 

Secondly, I've had the same handlebar experiences that others have related. I have drops on two Rivs and Albatross bars on my Atlantis (after the initial period of using drops). I enjoy alternating between bikes with different cockpits. My thrice weekly long rides are 14-18 miles with some shorter ones in between. 

The Albas are nice because they permit multiple hand positions and varying degrees of lean to more upright. The Atlantis uses a thumb shifter for the rear derailer and a downtube shifter for the front giving my left arm a chance to "shift" to another position. 

If I recall correctly Michael H. from the group has posted pictures of a Cheviot and/or a Betty? in his stable with drops. 

Don't give up. You'll eventually find the right solution.

Best of luck!

Richard 

On Sunday, January 21, 2018 at 3:16:13 PM UTC-5, Dave Small wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

I prefer pullbacks to drops, but I've noticed that I really don't use them for a more upright position than the flats/hoods stance on drops, they just look better than drops jacked up that high. I suspect your problem is you've moved the grips too close compared to that hoods position and it's making you feel cramped. Most people think of numb hands as a problem of being too bent over, but you'll get the same problem with bars too close: your hands will keep trying to "push" the bar away, creating extra pressure. Maybe a 13cm stem will help.

[Dave Small]

Thanks much to everyone who responded.  I've read all the replies---twice---and here are my thoughts:

1.  A common theme is to try a long stem to get more extension.  I'll try that.  I don't think it'll help, but it's an easy experiment and I don't trust my expectations enough to not try it.  The stem on the bike now is 100mm and I have a 120mm available, so I'll swap them.  BTW, this is why I like the threadless stem+riser setup so much; it's not as sleek, but I don't have to disassemble anything but the stem itself to change it out.  

2.  Raise or lower the bars.  Again, raising is easy and I'll try it.  I think it'll put me too much in the sit-up-and-beg position, which I don't think I'll like, but again (again!), I don't completely trust my expectations and it's easy to try.  I don't have enough room to lower them by more than a few millimeters, and flipping the Albas would be almost like trying another kind of bar, which leads me to.....

3.  Try different upright bars.  I have a Bosco and an Albastache that I could try, but I'm not sure I'm motivated enough to do it even though I have the bars.  The Bosco would put me higher and further back; the former change I'll have mimicked by raising the Albas, and the latter change is the opposite of swapping to a longer stem to get more reach.  It's that sit-up-and-beg thing again.  I won't rule out trying the Albastache, mainly because I want to try them on something and here's my chance, but I think I'd be stretched way out unless I went with a shorter stem....but I might try it to be sure.  As much as I'd like to like the Cheviot with uprights, swapping bars could lead down a rabbit hole of trial-and-error.  I won't rule it out if I learn something from #1 and #2 that leads me to believe that a certain bar would work, but I'm not inclined to go to exhaustive means to Find the Right Setup.  I'm happy with my Sams and my other bikes with drops, and was curious about upright-bar setups in general and the Cheviot specifically, but I might just be in the camp of "don't like 'em" and will want to cut my losses after trying a few reasonably easy solutions.  

4.  Try drop bars.  No one mentioned this option, but it's something I've considered.  As it's set up now, the reach to the center of the stem clamp is 1.5 cm longer than that on my Sams with Noodles, so I could replicate the Sam's reach on my Cheviot by replacing the 100mm stem with an 80mm stem.  Then what would I have, if not a Sam with longer chain stays and a stepover option that I don't use now anyway (old habits are hard to break)?  But I'm curious enough that I might try it to see.  It would let me assess the Cheviot as the only variable.  

That's it for now.  Again, thanks for everyone who weighed in.  If I learn anything relevant that might help others then I'll add another entry to this string.   

[Bill Lindsay]

Don't be afraid to conclude that you just prefer drop bars. I run my Rosco Bubbe step through with drop bars and I like it very much. I think a Cheviut with drop bars could be a really slick setup.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Dave Small]

Thanks, Bill.  I won't be afraid to conclude that I prefer drop bars, but want to be sure I'm evaluating the uprights properly and thoroughly, because if I conclude they're not for me then I'm never gonna try them again.  I started down this trail because I'd considered the Cheviot to be my eventual old-man bike, and wanted to know if would be suitable for that.  Variables can be confounded so I might think Thing A is the problem when it's really Thing B, but which affects Thing A and is misleading me.  I tend to overthink things like that, and want to be sure that any conclusion about the unsuitability of uprights for my riding is justified, but if it ends up there then so be it.  

Dave

[Surlyprof]

Dave,

When I switched from Albatross to an Albastache bar, I had to switch from an 11 stem to an 8 as Riv suggested. That was the right fit for me. The switch was needed anyway because the clamp sizes were different.

John

[Lester Lammers]

Do try the Albastach and Bosco. The 120mm VO stem I offered has a 17 degree rise and you may like the flipped Albas. These are what I have on the Boscos https://www.benscycle.com/dia-compe-drop-bar-hand-rests/bar_end_dia-compe__188-179/product kind of like riding on the hoods with drop bars. You're close don't give up now.

[Pondero]

Dave,

I'm an albatross fan, but it took me awhile to find my sweet spot.  I'll mention it here because seems a little different than what works for many of the folks who have commented.

Instead of higher bars and a longer stem, I found that using the same stem I used for my drop bars works for me.  However, I put the grips at saddle level.  When I sit on the saddle, and extend my hands with a slight elbow bend, the grips are exactly where my hands are.  The other key comfort move was the addition of Ergon grips.  They seem to be just right for taking the bar axis out of the nerve in my palm, and spreading any pressure across my entire hand.  Bar and grip angle help dial this in.  This formula provides ideal balance of my weight between saddle and bars.  During easy/moderate effort I have minimal weight on my hands on the grips.  During moderate/harder efforts I counter balance the increased weight on my hands on the forward curves with greater pedal pressure.  I know this wouldn't work for everyone, but it is delightful for my situation. 

Best wishes with your experimentation.  I hope you find the right bar/position for you.

Chris Johnson

Sanger, Texas

[adam leibow]

Hey Dave, 

I have gone through a similar process. I wanted to get what everyone else got with albatross. I found that I liked a bosco bar for riding two blocks to the grocery or bar, but not for "real" rides, and not on my nicer bikes. I bought a Cheviot because I wanted the full upright, true Rivendell experience, but when I tried it with Choco bars, took them and sold them after one ride around the block. 

I found a great happy medium with regular nitto bullmoose bars.  Since I am on the smaller end of who fits a 60cm chev, my seatpost is slammed and the bike is upright no matter which bars I put on it. The slight rise of the bullmoose makes it even more so. I find that with a drop or regular flat/riser/mountain bar, my weight is more evenly distributed over both wheels, and with a bosco or alba, my weight is shifted more towards the rear, and that these bars prevent the style of riding I appreciate with drops or bullmoose. You can see pictures of this set up on the Blug, under "Adam Leibow's Cheviot" in the user-submitted rides part. 

hope this helps!

[Deacon Patrick]

Also, play with hip positioning (rotation forward or back), saddle position, and position forward or back on the saddle — that can all make a difference. I realized on this morning’s ride that I change my hip rotation and saddle position depending on how agressive my position is. However, I’m used to doing that, as I floor live (no chairs or cushy mattresses), which strengthens the core and limbers the hips and legs and back.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Bill Lindsay]

Dave Small indicated that he’ll never try uprights again if he can’t get them to work for him now.

I’d recommend that you never say never. Particularly since you claim that this project is anticipating you getting older and your needs changing over time. Maybe in 5 or 10 years you won’t be the identical human that you are today. There’s nothing wrong with concluding that you prefer drop bars today and you might be open to something else at another time.

Try to have fun with it at any rate.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito Ca

[Scott McLain]

In the past I tried a SOMA Oxford bar on a Surly Cross Check and really didn't like it.  It was just too twitchy!  I attributed it to two things, the upright angles of the seat and headtube and the stem was sized for drop bars.

So I was curious to try albatross bars on my AHH. But before I took the plunge, I decided to call Riv and ask a couple of questions about stem lengths when going from drops to upright.  Guess who picked up the phone, Grant.  He had a couple of experiences to relate and told me that the frame angles were probably important to the feal of upright bars, but not necessarily the stem length.  He said if it felt to twitchy after the change to put on bigger tires.  So far I would say I am still getting used to a different riding position.

I am curious to try a drop bar with large flare like these on my touring bike.  They would look tough on a Chev and seem like you would use the drops more.

https://velo-orange.com/collections/handlebars/products/dajia-cycleworks-far-bar-handlebar

I agree that I feel a bit in no mans land when I ride the albatross, but at the same time there is no right and wrong.  I do like how it changes your "attitude" to relax a bit more and take in the scenery.  It helps me ride like a kid again.  My hands were a little sore because I was riding with thick ragwool gloves which couldn't grip the cork, so I couldn't use different hand positions.

My wife has a bosco bar on her Betty Foye.  It has a huge 13cm stem and it still has a cramped cockpit feel to me.  She loves it.

https://flic.kr/p/Eiwm5c

[Lester Lammers]

Don't give up yet Dave but don't expect the Cheviot to be a road bike. I was going to throw in the towel until I got the cockpit right for me the set up is much different than any road bike I have had. The new Cheviot geometry/design is different from the Foy/Gomez and Mountain mixte. More laid back and forgiving. However, we are all different and upright bars may never work for you.

[Mark in Beacon]

 Lester Lammers wrote: However, we are all different and upright bars may never work for you.

Well maybe. But, imagine if we lived in a parallel universe, one that was exactly the same as ours, except drop bars had never been invented.

Muscle memory combined with mental attitude (I'm enjoying the scenery. I'm enjoying the sce--Hey, that guy just passed me. Gotta crank it...) is not always so easily shifted. I gave myself 100 days to get used to the Boscos that came with my Clementine. Took less than that, but 100 days is what my tai chi teacher believed it took to develop new habits. I didn't have the luxury on the Boscomoose bars, but with unmoosed bars the easiest thing to fiddle with is the angle. Perhaps try slightly less of a downward slope.

I am blessed in that I can get comfy on just about any bars eventually, but of course frame angles, stem length, bar position, etc. can all make that more or less optimal.

The barman says, “We don’t serve time travelers in here.” A time traveler walks into a bar. Two men walk into a bar. You’d think at least one of them would have ducked.  “Poor Old fool,” thought the well-dressed gentleman as he watched an old man fish in a puddle outside a pub. So he invited the old man inside for a drink. As they sipped their whiskeys, the gentleman thought he’d humor the old man and asked, “So how many have you caught today?” The old man replied, “You’re the eighth.”A man walks into a bar with a chunk of asphalt under one arm. The man says, “Beer, please, and one for the road.”A man walks into a bar with a chunk of asphalt under one arm. The man says, “Beer, please, and one for the road.” A grasshopper hops into a bar. The bartender says, “You’re quite a celebrity around here. We’ve even got a drink named after you.” The grasshopper says, “You’ve got a drink named Steve?” A dog goes into a bar and orders a martini. The bartender says, “You don’t see a dog in here drinking a martini very often.” The dog says, “At these prices, I’m not surprised.” Several fonts walk into a bar. “Get out of here!” shouts

[Brian Campbell]

I don't like upright bars. There, I said it! I have tried: Albatross/Dove/Moustache/Bullmoose/ GB All Rounders/MAP Aherne/ Flatbars/ Riser Bars/Arced bars and trekking bars. All make my right palm numb. Sometimes in minutes and sometimes longer. Height reach have en effect but never eliminate it.

46cm Nitto Noodles on a 61cm AHH w/ a 9cm Nitto Pearll Stem and I have no issues. I did a 200k Brevet ( on the bike for about 12hrs) and had zero hand pain. Some things just don't work for some folks. 

You can make yourself use this set up but why would you? If you put a pair of shoes on and they didn't fit would you keep forcing yourself to wear them? Sell the bike and move on. 

Bike lists on the internet seem to draw a large number of people who like to tinker, experiment and record data. The idea of a "fitment mystery" that needs solving is almost as much fun as riding to many. I am not one of them. My experimentation phase is waning. I know what I like and what works for me. 

[Dave Small]

Thanks to everyone for the continued discussion.  My experimentation phase has waned, but it hasn't disappeared.  I also know what I like and what works for me---for now.  But my preferences have changed over the past 10 years, and are continuing to change.  I'm trying the anticipate my continued evolution, with mixed results.  

I find this intriguing about all the responses:  

One camp says "I tried uprights and loved 'em right away; they're the best!"  Probably not many fall into this camp, but I've read those testimonials.

Another says "I tried uprights and didn't like 'em at first, but then I found the right combination of handlebars/bar height/stem extension/bar angle/grips that worked for me, and now I love 'em!"

And a third camp says "Don't like 'em.  I tried this and that and other things---42 things in all---and I never found something that feels good."

It may be that the only thing separating the third camp from the second camp is the 43rd attempt, and the question becomes how motivated is that Third Camper to continue experimenting in the hope of becoming a Second Camper?  That person never knows that the next combination of factors won't work, he or she finally just gives up.  

When I think about why I care, I realize that I'm just curious---have been for a long time, and I've often acted on that curiosity by trying new things.  Lord knows I don't need to; I have more bikes that I can justify even to myself, much less my wife, and I love enough of them enough on every level that I don't need to follow any more strings.  I say I want to go the N-1 route, but then I continue to buy bikes I don't need---'cause I think they'll be great (and usually they are)---and I struggle to find ways to "save" bikes that don't seem to work well for me---such as the Cheviot---when I should be saying "oh well, nice try and I learned something."  

So much for my inner workings.  Back to the Cheviot:  I took it for a short ride last night and simulated body positions that I'd expect from a longer stem and also from higher bars.  I'm gonna try those changes because they're easy to implement, and see if that helps.  I don't know why I want to like the Cheviot but I do, and I'll try a few more things but will stop well before #42.  I think.  

[David Stein]

This is a really interested and thorough review of someone who went through something similar on a Clem Smith: http://zedmartinez.com/2016/06/rivendell-clem-smith-jr/

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[Joe Bernard]

My very specific reason for trying to make uprights work is I don't like the braking situation on drops. I'm too old a creaky to ride in the drops so all my braking is on the hoods, which feels unstable on steep descents. I like mtb levers I can get to.

[Mark in Beacon]

Or the fourth camp, which says "Stick with one setup for a while. You might like it."

I will say I'm surprised at how many folks say they outright dislike upright bars. Again, count me grateful that my body is just not that challenged by various positions on a bicycle. Within limits, especially with non-competitive riding, I find the software often successfully reprograms itself to the hardware. 

[Patrick Moore]

Me too, except it's my left palm that goes numb anywhere except ramps and hoods, though I can go further in the hooks without the numbness than I can using non-drop bars.

But, that said, I do want eventually to try Albatrosses or somesuch with a more upright position, on a frame with a sufficiently slack seat tube angle. I don't see myself needing Albastaches or Bullmooses, since the virtue of these is that they also allow a forward position, right? And for that I use drops.

I use the original Moustache bar on my Hon Solo, because it allows more compact folding than a drop bar, but I can't ride it for more than 12 miles or so at a stretch without enough discomfort to make riding an annoyance rather than a pleasure. Still it's a heck of a lot better than flipped and trimmed North Road bars!

[Brian Campbell]

Meh. If it continually causes pain, even after futzing around with the different variables, how long are you supposed to "stick with it" before it suddenly works? My motto: "If it don't fit, then you musta quit!"

On Tuesday, January 23, 2018 at 1:03:17 PM UTC-5, Mark in Beacon wrote:oo small bikes to people and telling them thier muscles will adjust

[adam leibow]

OJ!

[Steve Palincsar]

I've never had an upright bar that didn't make my hands numb by 40
miles, and in most cases a lot quicker than that.   For short distances,
maybe riding in suit jackets and slacks 3-speed Raleigh style, fine; but
in my experience, not for sporting rides.

On 01/23/2018 01:03 PM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:
> Or the fourth camp, which says "Stick with one setup for a while. You
> might like it."
> I will say I'm surprised at how many folks say they outright dislike
> upright bars. Again, count me grateful that my body is just not that
> challenged by various positions on a bicycle. Within limits,
> especially with non-competitive riding, I find the software often
> successfully reprograms itself to the hardware.

--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/23/2018 11:53 AM, Dave Small wrote:
> Thanks to everyone for the continued discussion.  My experimentation
> phase has waned, but it hasn't disappeared.  I also know what I like
> and what works for me---for now.  But my preferences have changed over
> the past 10 years, and are continuing to change.  I'm trying the
> anticipate my continued evolution, with mixed results.
>
> I find this intriguing about all the responses:
>
> One camp says "I tried uprights and loved 'em right away; they're the
> best!"  Probably not many fall into this camp, but I've read those
> testimonials.
>
> Another says "I tried uprights and didn't like 'em at first, but then
> I found the right combination of handlebars/bar height/stem
> extension/bar angle/grips that worked for me, and now I love 'em!"
>
> And a third camp says "Don't like 'em.  I tried this and that and
> other things---42 things in all---and I never found something that
> feels good."
>
> It may be that the only thing separating the third camp from the
> second camp is the 43rd attempt, and the question becomes how
> motivated is that Third Camper to continue experimenting in the hope
> of becoming a Second Camper?  That person never knows that the next
> combination of factors won't work, he or she finally just gives up.

And honestly, what would motivate you to try those 43 different setups
if drops already work for you?   What could you possibly be looking for?

[Mark in Beacon]

I don't think giving your body a little time to acclimate to a certain piece of equipment  is equatable to selling someone a too-small frame. That said, if people are experiencing sharp or debilitating pain, as opposed to mild discomfort or a little initial soreness, I would never say keep on keepin' on--I assume we are all adults here. The OP wrote things like "It's okay, but I feel like I'm kinda caught between a forward lean and sitting upright, in a no-man's land of Tweenerville" and  "Nope, I thought, not fond of this." It wasn't until he went 25 miles, 10 over the plan, when his fingers went "kinda numb" and would not wave. Each comment was about a different ride with a different setup, bike and bars. My camp would say, stick with the tweenerville feeling for a few weeks and see what happens. I know, meh, right?

 I think in addition to not being concerned about weight or speed, not being oriented to counting the miles or hours in the saddle is part of the "make bikes fun" approach. I think the overall Rivendell view of bicycles does not necessarily incorporate long distances (long being a relative term, I know). I'm pretty sure I recall Grant writing that he does not do long rides. I'm guessing for the most part 15-25 mile rides, couple hours in the saddle. Please don't misread this as me saying Riv is against rando rides or doing centuries or charity centuries or what have you. Of course not. And they still carry a drop bar, and make bicycles optimized for them.

I've never ridden an upright 40 miles. I use drop bars for that. I have upright bars on the bicycles I use for scooting around town, shopping,riding the tandem with my son, visiting friends. Sometimes I'll take one a bit longer, especially if I am riding with someone who might be put off by a drop bar bicycle.  I don't do the kinds of distances required for completing a 1200km brevet, but I do like to do the occasional 50-60 mile ride, and last year I did the 115k option at D2R2. Not that many years ago I would have only considered doing the 180k. And it's not being too old--I could handle that distance if required--but it's more fun to take my time and enjoy the ride. I also did it in sandals and flats. Old dog, new tricks. As I get to be an even older dog, maybe the range on the uprights will increase (right now I ride an upright every day, so the frequency is already higher.)

On Tuesday, January 23, 2018 at 1:49:57 PM UTC-5, Brian Campbell wrote:

Meh. If it continually causes pain, even after futzing around with the different variables, how long are you supposed to "stick with it" before it suddenly works? My motto: "If it don't fit, then you musta quit!"

On Tuesday, January 23, 2018 at 1:03:17 PM UTC-5, Mark in Beacon wrote:oo small bikes to people and telling them thier muscles will adjust

Or the fourth camp, which says "Stick with one setup for a while. You might like it."

I will say I'm surprised at how many folks say they outright dislike upright bars. Again, count me grateful that my body is just not that challenged by various positions on a bicycle. Within limits, especially with non-competitive riding, I find the software often successfully reprograms itself to the hardware. 

orks for me. 

[Eric Norris]

I bought a bike from a fellow list member about two years ago that has “upright” Soma Oxford bars on it. I found the bike’s initial setup to be uncomfortable even for short-is rides, and ended up getting a longer stem that puts me in a position somewhere between “upright” and “road bike.” Summary: It wasn’t the bars, but the position … and it didn’t take very long at all to figure it out. Once I made a few changes, the bike became comfortable enough for a 400-mile tour down the California coast.

I can easily envision a setup with drop bars that would be just as uncomfortable (I’ve seen photos of many such bars-in-the-stratosphere bikes on this list).

To each his own, but I’ve found a more road-ish body position (leaning slightly forward) more comfortable than sitting straight up. And it’s not just the bars, but the combination of frame, bars, stem, and seat position that makes the difference.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

@CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)

[Dave Small]

Quick update:

dstein, the blog post you linked to resonated with me.  I, too, have fought a Bosco-high setup, deliberately going for an upright build that's not too upright so isn't sit-up-and-beg.  But the blog post's author finally realized that Grant knew more about bikes than he did, so gave the Boscos a try and loved 'em.  I didn't want to uninstall and then install bars on speculation that I'd react similarly, but I raised my stem to the minimum insertion point (about 2 inches) to get partially more Bosco-like and took it for a couple spins around the block.  Not far, mind you, but enough to know if I'd hate it.  I didn't---in fact, I might have even liked it a little.  Less pressure on my hands, which wouldn't be a big deal after only a couple of miles, but it suggests that the change was in the right direction.  Holding the grips I'm still 17% in Tweenerville, but I was there 72% before so again, the right direction.  And when I reached forward to hold the furthest-forward point of the bars, it felt good.  

The position is still unfamiliar to me, and I feel 8 feet tall in the saddle, but I can get used to that and adapt.  I'll take it for a longer ride when I get a chance---not tonight---and see how that works out.

By the way, I'm not planning to take this touring, and have plenty of other bikes to take for longer rides.  I'd like to be able to enjoy this for, say, a 13-mile ride which is the up-and-back distance of a local trail that's sometimes relaxing after work.  Or to the store, or just buzzing around the neighborhood for 8-10 miles.  The 24-mile ride was unplanned, but I extended my initial ride to see if I'd acclimate to a position that seemed awkward over the first 10 or so miles.  I didn't, and it got worse.  

[tc]

Albastach held over top of an albatross mounted on a 12cm Tallux stem on a Sam.

You can see the albastach curves are more forward.

The teach to those curves is less than it would be to drops on a drop bar.

So, an in-between bar.

Might be worth a shot. You can even get 23.8 levers I believe if you don’t like drop levers on it.

On Sunday, January 21, 2018 at 11:22:19 PM UTC-5, tc wrote:
> Great pic here of a Blue Lug Chev with Albastache bars.  Looks pretty cool to my eye....
>
>
> My first Sam had Albatross bars.  Comfortable, but I felt kinda "pokey" after riding around for 10 min.  I'd sit up for a while, then find myself slipping forward into the curves so I could turn it up a notch -- but that wasn't the best hand position on those bars for a lengthy ride.  My wife rode it and loved it, and it became her Sam.
>
>
> I ordered another Sam for me with Noodles with bar ends, wrapped with the black cork tape that Riv sells, and love them.  They're set about a 1/4" above saddle height.  Very comfortable and of course many hand positions.
>
>
> I'll be installing Albastache bars on the SimpleOne I got from group member Ben.  We'll see how that goes.  Live and learn...
>
>
> Tom
>
> On Sunday, January 21, 2018 at 10:40:02 PM UTC-5, Surlyprof wrote:
> I'm right there with you, Dave.  My Hillborne came with Albatross bars and I never warmed up to them.  My old Bianchi was the swan song for drop bars for me.  The more upright riding is great for urban riding and as I've been getting older I was getting a little neck pain from drops.  I finally bit the bullet and dropped about $300 on a set of Albastache bars, brake levers and stem.  Absolutely love them!  They still provide the fast-ish-feeling lean that I missed from the drops but still enabled me to get a bit more upright when I wanted a new body position.  Lots of others say how they just can't get used to Albastache or get hand pain from them but I feel the same about Albatross.  The past year I've had to go back the Albatross bars because of a shoulder ailment and, although it is a very nice set up (Paul levers and thumbies and beautiful Brooks slender grips), I desperately miss the Albastache.  As soon as I get the time to convert back, I will.  You may want to try a set.  They are in between, but in a good way.  They feel somewhere between Albatross, Dirt Drops and straight bars to me.
>
>
>
>
>
> John

[Lester Lammers]

Zed got the Diacomp knob idea from another list member. I've seen the post but can't find it now. Check this post too: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rbw-owners-bunch/U08zKHxtpwY His saddle is way back. Looks like the VO long setback seat post. A similar position worked for me too. The Paul thumbies will be replaced with IRD stem mounted shifters. FWIW, I hesitated about the 58cm Boscos but Grant was right, wider bars quicken the steering. On the latest Cheviot geometry, 70 degree head tube, the steering feels right with them.

[Glen]

I had the same feeling before adding interrupter levers to my noodles. Now riding around town in traffic is just as nice on the noodles as the albas.

[tom horton]

all of my drop bars have interrupter brakes…Paul Components makes nice ones, but cheapies work just as well…probably works best with wide bars.

[Tom Horton]

dave, your experiences in uprightness mirror mine to a tee...have tried on a quickbeam an appaloosa and a waterford and gone back to drops, usually mounted a little below or about equal to the seat...I too would love to know how drops would work on a cheviot. even at age 72 I need to be a bit stretched out it seems.

[Chris Birkenmaier]

Eric hit it on the head for my experiences and thoughts on the topic.  I don't ride drops any more but neither do I like riding like Mary Poppins.  Also when I see bikes with drops that are hiked up well above the saddle it kind of takes me back a bit.  Always appears to be ungainly but if someone prefers to ride that way, let it be so,

[Larry Charlton]

I'm struggling similarly.  I set up a prototype Appaloosa last spring and rode the past season with Albastache bars.  But I always felt like I was "in-between" comfort locations.  When sitting upright I found myself holding onto the very end of the bars, often actually holding the bar-end shifter in the palm of my hand and wishing there was another couple inches to grab onto.  But when I stretched out I found the "hooks" of the Albastache to be too close.  So I've been sitting here most of the winter debating whether to go to something like a Bosco to get the bars closer to me or just install some drop bar.  Still can't decide...

[Philip Kim]

Loved the Bosco bars on my appaloosa

[Ann L]

Me too :)  Bosco bars rock!