Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis

[Bob]

How does the Toyo built Atlantis differ in quality and/or geometry
from the Waterford edition? Exclude differences in braze-ons,
kickstand plate and range of sizes.

In other words, what, if anything, was gained or lost by the change in
builder?

[Benedikt]

The pride of having something still built in the good ole US of A.
The reduction in pollution caused by shipping the frame all the way
across the Pacific Ocean.

[Bruce]

Rivendell has said on several occasions that the quality of the bikes is the same. The noted that the tubing is a different mix of brands, but also equally good.

---

From: Bob <pro...@umbc.edu>
To: RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, January 22, 2011 10:34:28 PM
Subject: [RBW] Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis

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[Angus]

Bob,

I've had two Rivendells (non Atlantis) built by Waterford. They were
very well done.

I've had two Rivendell (one an Atlantis) built by Toyo. They were
also very well done.

I have not been able to detect a difference.

Angus

[Bob]

Grant has emphasized the special qualities of the Toyo fork and how
such geometry could not be matched on the Taiwan Sams. So is the
Waterford a match or improvement over the Toyo edition? Also, does
the Waterford Atlantis have the same impressive chainstay geometry and
form of the Toyo? I don't doubt the quality of the Waterford product,
just differences in production. Put another way, if they were standing
next to each other, could you tell the difference? Is there any
reason for a person to prefer one over the other?

[Kelly Sleeper]

I am the last one to comment on this but maybe I can learn something.  I was under the impression that the geometry was mandated by Rivendell period.  I know on the AHH the only differences were things like 2 water bottle cage mount vs three, a nice paint accent on the fork on one and not on the other and paint color.  So Geometry and tube thickness etc for ride is at a spec and the same regardless of who made it.

 

Just my impression..:)  I have no clue if I'm right... but then truth being the satisfing representative of the holder what difference does it make it's true.. or spelled correctly.

 

Kelly

[cm]

I have seen several Waterford and Toyo built Rivs and the only obvious
differences are the things you point out-- braze ons, color
(Waterfords seem lighter/ millky). I would think any variation would
come from the individuals who braze them-- not the factory they were
brazed in.

Cheers!
cm

[James Warren]

Well, I don't remember the exact quote, but it was something along the lines of Toyo's fork curve being a home run while the curve done by Taiwan is a solid double.

Puts the Taiwan product in a more positive light, which it deserves. (New Hillborne owner talking here!) We're talking about different levels of greatness. My Hillborne is a Taiwanese. I also own a Waterford-made AHH a Toyo-made Atlantis and I wouldn't advise anyone against getting the one made in Taiwan.

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[Benedikt]

From what I read somewhere (correct me if I'm wrong) this last line of
Sam's, including mine, ALL have Taiwanese forks, even the Waterfords.
Fame was made at Waterford, fork Taiwan. Whatever, I love it.

Now I've side tracked the subject from Atlantis to Sam & from Toyo to
Taiwan.

[Garth]

It doesn't matter what factory makes your Rivendell, period.

In truth, any of them can be near perfect, and any of them can have
flaws.

I have a frame from Waterford that was made with a mistake that needed
repair. I'm not here to denigrate them, rather to point out no one ...
absolutely no one is perfect.

Any Rivendell frame is a great frame to own. Don't worry about where
it was made!

[Bob]

Following the Taiwan tact of this discussion, the issue of the
Hunqapillar build is yet more complicated. On the Riv site, after
describing the wonderous tubing used in its build, it's reported that
the fame is made in Taiwan under the direction of Toyo, with the fork
made by Toyo, the suppliers of the well regarded fork they provided
for their Atlantis. Does this make Toyo the "A" Team, with Taiwan the
backup, lower cost,and perhaps lower skill provider? Is this Toyo/
Taiwan collaboration still in place, and is Waterford contributing
anything to the project? Is Waterford limited in what it can do, or
do for Riv at a competitive price? Such production details tend to
drift and the Riv site is not always updated in a timely fashion. I'm
impressed by Riv quality and am the happy owner of a first edition
green, Taiwan Sam. These are the kind of esoteric details one asks
about products one cares about, and of a culture that invites
them.

[cm]

"Well, I don't remember the exact quote, but it was something along
the lines of Toyo's fork curve being a home run while the curve done
by Taiwan is a solid double."

That quote was referencing the Bleriot fork it is from the comparison
to the Saluki in RR37. It is probably true of the SH too. Here is
page:

http://www.cyclofiend.com/Images/rbw/rr37_pg15.jpg

I think that a Riv(taiwan) is a Riv(toyo) is a Riv(waterford) but
maybe not a Riv(custom).

Cheers!
cm

[James Warren]

And the key thing is how they are attentive if there is a flaw. They want you to have a good experience with the bike.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Garth <gart...@gmail.com>
>Sent: Jan 24, 2011 7:09 AM
>To: RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>

[Benedikt]

Just the other day I read on the Riv website that they are raising the
price of the Waterford Sam's to cover the cost. I believe it costs
more for them to have frames built from Waterford. Not that this
makes them any better, just that it costs more to have the same
product built in the U.S. When I was waiting for my Sam (and waiting,
and waiting, and waiting) they started the Waterford option.
Apparently it was taking longer then expected to get the shipment in
from Taiwan and they worked a deal with Waterford to "catch up".

I wonder if people are willing to pay more for the Waterford's would
they be willing to pay more for one made in Japan as opposed to
Taiwan, all quality and everything else being equal?

Although (as I've said before) I love having a product that was made
in the U.S. I will have to agree with Garth and say that wherever they
are made all of them are great.

[Peter Pesce]

I have a pretty limited bike budget, so when I bought my Sam last
summer, a $1000 Riv frame was already a stretch, but for a Riv it
seemed like a good buy, and then the idea of getting a lugged steel
frame hand made in the USA for $1250 was VERY compelling. (Ironically,
the double top tube and "indeterminate" delivery date led be to buy a
Taiwan Sam at the end of the day). However, a $1400 price tag probably
would have led me back to the Surly site. I know it seems trifling,
but not all buying decisions are rational.
I sometimes think that Riv causes itself a lot of grief (and they say
as much on their site) with the combination of highly "variable"
sourcing and a high degree of transparency about that sourcing. It's a
necessary evil, of course, and I can appreciate that it's really hard
to meet the price points they are trying to, and live up to their "Buy
American" mantra at every opportunity.

I'll add my voice to the "A Riv is a Riv is a Riv" chorus...

-Pete

[Ryan]

As far as I know, Atlantises (Atlanti?) were only Toyo-built. But I'm
sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

My impression is that later models...I'm thinking of the AHH in
particular ...were either Toyo or Waterford-built. And as others on
this thread have noted, the Sams are either built by Waterford or in
Taiwan under the supervision of Toyo

That being said, regardless of the origin, Grant's design philosophy
and attention to detail are evident...you say tomaytoes and I say
tomaahtoes . Rivendells are great bikes

Regards,
Ryan in Winnipeg,MB

[Bruce]

Current Atlantis production is Waterford. Up until last year (I think), they came from Toyo. Toyo was the only source for Rambouillet, Saluki and Romulus/Redwood. AHH was blended as you suggest, and is now all Waterford. I think if you get them to take an order for a Legolas, it would come from Waterford as well. The website currently shows Bombadil, Rodeo, Atlantis, and Hilsen as US made (Waterford). Hunqapillar, Gomez, Foy, Amos,  Simpleone as Taiwan made (Maxway)

---

From: Ryan <ryte...@mts.net>

To: RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Wed, January 26, 2011 12:19:28 PM
Subject: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis

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[jose]

It comes down to your aesthetic sense. If you are not that much into
the details of how things look, then it doesn't matter because quality-
wise they are identical.

But if you do care about the details, then I think you'd have to look
at the specific bike to determine what you like more.

Totally subjective.

I do remember a Grant post mentioning he really liked some of the
details on the last run of Toyo Atlantis. Here it is:

http://www.rivbike.com/blogs/knothole_post/196

I have both a 2006 and one of these last-run 2010 Atlantii. I like
both (a lot), but I overall I prefer the look of the 2006. For
example, I like the curvey lugs of the 2006 more. Many people have
said they prefer the newer, pointy lugs.

Tomato, jitomate.

On Jan 26, 3:52 pm, Bruce <fullylug...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Current Atlantis production is Waterford. Up until last year (I think), they
> came from Toyo. Toyo was the only source for Rambouillet, Saluki and
> Romulus/Redwood. AHH was blended as you suggest, and is now all Waterford. I
> think if you get them to take an order for a Legolas, it would come from
> Waterford as well. The website currently shows Bombadil, Rodeo, Atlantis, and
> Hilsen as US made (Waterford). Hunqapillar, Gomez, Foy, Amos,  Simpleone as
> Taiwan made (Maxway)
>
> ________________________________

> From: Ryan <ryter...@mts.net>

> rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

[doug peterson]

Holy rack mounts, Batman! Just back from my wanderings & of course
can't resist a thread with "Atlantis" in the subject line (really wish
I'd had mine with me but that's another story). IIRC, GP specs the
bike and the vendor builds it to spec. A brazed joint can only be so
good and both Waterford and Toyo have proven they pass the test.
Therefore, there should be no functional difference between the two
builders, and a frame from either should perform equally well. Riv is
pretty careful about the quality of their vendors so spend your energy
on which Riv meets your needs and don't stress who built it. If in
doubt, just get an Atlantis.

dougP

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Bob]

The current Riv Atlantis is built by Waterford. My original question
concerned whether, excluding paint, braze ons and probably tubing, the
Waterford is identical to the Toyo build. This is not questionaing the
obviously excellent Riv quality, but about subtle specifics of
interest to velohistorians an bike nerds. The question remains
unanswered. For example, are their differences between the acclaimed
Toyo and current Waterford forks? What about subtle bends in the
chainstay and other tubing? There must be things that Toyo and
Waterford do uniquely well. What are they?

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Over the years, there were numerous changes from batch to batch, even among just Toyo Atlantis frames. Different lugs, different headbadges, different decals, different braze-ons, different forks, and it seems like tire clearance possibly improved in later incarnations. I have not seen a Waterford Atlantis in person, but I suspect the small details continue to evolve.

[James Warren]

Or Sam Hillborne!

[James Warren]

I'm not sure if this is so easy to answer. I think in the small details, the bikes are always morphing some. My early Toyo Atlantis from 2001 has pretty substantial differences from later Toyo models. For example, mine is a 64 frame size, but at that time, the top tube on that size was 62 cm. Afterward, for the later part of the Toyo run, that top tube in the 64 size was only 60 cm.

Also, the lugs changed at least twice in the Toyo Atlanti, meaning three different lug sets. Kickstand plates came along later too.

I think that even within a certain manufacturing source, the details of the frame would change as different batches are made. Sorry I can't be more specific and less speculative.

Maybe a good way to answer this is to go on Riv rides and compare the different Atlanti among the different participants. I'm guessing the owners could be coerced into talking about the finer details of their bikes a little bit.

-Jim W.

[robert zeidler]

If they are built here, they are better. Think about everything bad
that's associated w/ a Taiwanese made product.

[robert zeidler]

If it's made here, it's better. Think of everything bad (and there
are many things) associated w/ a Taiwanese made product.

[Shaun Meehan]

On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 1:46 PM, robert zeidler <zeidler...@gmail.com> wrote:

If it's made here, it's better.  Think of everything bad (and there
are many things) associated w/ a Taiwanese made product.

None of the Atlantis frames have ever been built in Taiwan. At least not that I know of.
They've only been built in Japan (by Toyo) and in the United States (by Waterford).
Aside from that, I've seen some of the Maxway built frames up close and the quality
seems pretty damn good. So I don't know that I would agree that there are inherent
problems with Taiwanese made products in the case of the Maxway frames.

Shaun Meehan

[Bruce]

Maxway sells pre-designed frame sets for re label purpose and some of them are very nice. Especially the lugged ones. They don't sell onesies though...

Toyo sells its own frames as well as having a long history of making frames for others.

---

From: Shaun Meehan <meehan...@gmail.com>
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, January 27, 2011 2:15:36 PM
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis

[JoelMatthews]

> For example, are their differences between the acclaimed Toyo and current Waterford forks?

Does Waterford make the Atlantis forks?

Nobilette made the early Waterford Hilsen forks.

> > > builder?- Hide quoted text -

[PATRICK MOORE]

On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 12:46 PM, robert zeidler
<zeidler...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If it's made here, it's better.  Think of everything bad (and there
> are many things) associated w/ a Taiwanese made product.

?????

Patrick "thinking until it hurts" Moore who is just beginning,
*beginning*, mind you, to suspect that RZ was being facetious but
forgot his emoticon.

[robert zeidler]

My faux pas, but I'm not talking about quality, but rather sourcing
from overseas. Not a flag-waving exercise, though I'm beginning to
thik we should do more of that, but just the fact that the profit,
wages etc., go overseas rather than someone here reaping that benefit,
which we all will end up paying anyway, plus the fact all of this
stuff has to be shipped across the ocean. I'm not talking about a
not-available-here-in-any-way-shape-or-form item, but rather something
that can sourced closer to home. Shimano? Campy? no problem, not
made here, but anything that can be...

Sorry, I read a lot about how the business model is to"send the labor
overseas", and I know that's a complicated, OT, lengthy discussion,
and don't mean to get that started here, but it is Riv-related in a
big way.

[robert zeidler]

No brother, sorry, no tongue-in-cheek here. See my other post.
RGZ-living w/ VT-like snowfall Z.

[Steve Palincsar]

I have no idea what Robert means, but I suspect his concerns have to do
with politics and economics, not with the quality of Taiwanese products.
It's even possible he's confusing Taiwan with the PRC. I wonder, do
those same concerns apply to Japanese-made products, or German-made
ones? At least, Taiwan was never part of the Axis...

[William]

Those New Zealand and Aussie wool baselayers are a curse on the global
economy. I can only countenance bicycle equipment and accoutrements
delivered themselves by bicycle.

I kid! I kid!

[robert zeidler]

Anything that can be gotten here, as long as it's not prohibitively
more expensive, should be. Can make a BMW (m/c) here, I get it, but
if, as is the supposed case with these frames when there is no other
real difference. Get it made here. Who doesn't see the logic of
that?

[PATRICK MOORE]

This I agree with, by and large.

Of course, you know, the Great Invisible Lobster Hand In The Sky
secretly and silently coordinates all the infinitely various and
multitudinous single acts of greed into a general, All Pervading
Harmony that lifts every boat higher and higher toward the Empyrean
until everyone strangles on his own wellbeing.

Patrick "and multiplicity as such is the source of unity, too" Moore,
in a Metaphysical mood.

--
Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact
Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumesp...@gmail.com

[robert zeidler]

Great!! I'll get the butter and the lemons!

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2011-01-27 at 16:57 -0700, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
> This I agree with, by and large.
>
> Of course, you know, the Great Invisible Lobster Hand In The Sky
> secretly and silently coordinates all the infinitely various and
> multitudinous single acts of greed into a general, All Pervading
> Harmony that lifts every boat higher and higher toward the Empyrean
> until everyone strangles on his own wellbeing.

The 'Invisible Hand,' I believe it's called.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_hand

[William Pustow]

My 2007 Hilsen was made by Waterford. It took awhile because the story I got from Rivendell was that Grant was not happy with the fork and was having Mark Nobilette build it.
Bill - who loves his Homer and thinks the fork was waiting for.

[benzzoy]

On Jan 27, 11:45 am, robert zeidler <zeidler.rob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If they are built here, they are better.  Think about everything bad
> that's associated w/ a Taiwanese made product.

OK, I give up. What's bad that's associated with a Taiwanese-made
product?

(BTW, Taiwan != China)

[PATRICK MOORE]

No, this one is the invisible Lobster hand, the one that, hidden,
benevolently pats each individual on the head.

Patrick "skipped my Wealth of Nations Seminars in college" Moore

[doug peterson]

I wouldn't doubt that by now the OP (Bob) has given up. But recall
his original question:

This is not questionaing the
obviously excellent Riv quality, but about subtle specifics of
interest to velohistorians an bike nerds. The question remains
unanswered. For example, are their differences between the acclaimed
Toyo and current Waterford forks? What about subtle bends in the
chainstay and other tubing? There must be things that Toyo and
Waterford do uniquely well. What are they?

The "subtle specifics of interest to velohistorians an bike nerds" may
require an assemblage of Atlantises to sort out. With running
changes, production of 400 per year (or something like that), and
small production runs, Riv probably can't track them that well. Other
than really obvious stuff like the pointy vs roundy lugs (I had mine
for several years before knowing about that) and kickstand plates, the
really subtle stuff would be hard to quantify.

That's an inadequate answer but the only one I can come up with.

dougP

[frank]

I have an Atlantis built in early 2009 by Mark Nobilette. It's a 61,
I waited almost a year for it. It's an excellent bike!

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -

[newenglandbike]

On Jan 27, 11:38 pm, doug peterson <dougpn...@cox.net> wrote:

> but about subtle specifics of
> interest to velohistorians an bike nerds.  The question remains
> unanswered.  For example, are their differences between the acclaimed
> Toyo and current Waterford forks?  What about subtle bends in the
> chainstay and other tubing?  There must be things that Toyo and
> Waterford do uniquely well.  What are they?
>

This thread needs pictures

[Angus]

I think, Robert, that this all depends upon ones perspective.

Angus

On Jan 27, 1:45 pm, robert zeidler <zeidler.rob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If they are built here, they are better.  Think about everything bad
> that's associated w/ a Taiwanese made product.
>

[zeidler...@gmail.com]

How so my friend?
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

[MichaelH]

I must say that the variety of attitudes toward products made in the
USA which get expressed on this site very often leave me scratching my
head. Some people who fall all over themselves praising MUSA clothes,
regularly diss and compare excellent US bike products to cheaper
Tiawnese. About the only producer who escapes this is Phil Wood.

The primary reason for buying local is the contribution to building a
sense of community. I live in a rural state and have the opportunity
to source a very high proportion of my food, some of my clothing and
my grandsons toys from people in this state. These products are
invariably more expensive, but the quality is excellent and they are
my neighbors.

All but one of my bicycle frames were made in Asia, and they are very
good. However, I try to dress them up with "local" products - White
hubs & cranks; PW BB, Paul's brakes; Chris King HS. It's a community
thing; I spend my money here and they pay their taxes here. One hand
helps the other.

michael,
westford, Vt

[robert zeidler]

I'm not saying we have to be "green", but every product has to be
shipped by plane, boat or something equally inefficient from a long
way away. You'll have to ride it every day, a long way to offset
that. The wages are paid to someone who will spend that money... not
here. You on the other hand will pay a little less to support that
person, but will pay a lot more in taxes, to support the person(s) you
did not pay for his labor etc., here. You will pay taxes on borrowed
money (mostly form mainland China). It's true that there are wars
etc., to support , also w/ borrowed money. That's besides the point
here. If the product is equal in quality and every other facet of its
existence doesn't it make sense to spend that money here, even if it's
a little more?

I'm not a big business supporter but I'm always amazed when people
talk about the "greed" of big business. They, just like a person who
is thrifty or cheap, just want to keep more of what they earn. The
numbers are just larger but it's all relative. So by purchasing
something made overseas that can be sourced here is in effect screwing
your fellow American, even if unknowingly, or unintended. And to top
it off, it's often said that every one of those borrowed dollars,
that's paid in unemployment returns $1.60 to the economy. Then why
don't we just lay everybody off and watch things take right off!

RGZ

[Steve Palincsar]

On Fri, 2011-01-28 at 18:05 -0500, robert zeidler wrote:
> I'm not saying we have to be "green", but every product has to be
> shipped by plane, boat or something equally inefficient from a long
> way away. You'll have to ride it every day, a long way to offset
> that. The wages are paid to someone who will spend that money... not
> here. You on the other hand will pay a little less to support that
> person, but will pay a lot more in taxes, to support the person(s) you
> did not pay for his labor etc., here. You will pay taxes on borrowed
> money (mostly form mainland China). It's true that there are wars
> etc., to support , also w/ borrowed money. That's besides the point
> here. If the product is equal in quality and every other facet of its
> existence doesn't it make sense to spend that money here, even if it's
> a little more?

So, you are against all international trade?

>
> I'm not a big business supporter but I'm always amazed when people
> talk about the "greed" of big business. They, just like a person who
> is thrifty or cheap, just want to keep more of what they earn. The
> numbers are just larger but it's all relative. So by purchasing
> something made overseas that can be sourced here is in effect screwing
> your fellow American, even if unknowingly, or unintended. And to top
> it off, it's often said that every one of those borrowed dollars,
> that's paid in unemployment returns $1.60 to the economy. Then why
> don't we just lay everybody off and watch things take right off!

I find arguments like this much more persuasive when they focus on
things like importing garlic from mainland China (like, we don't grow
garlic here?) than bicycle frames and components from Taiwan.

[zeidler...@gmail.com]

No of course not. Just home-team 1st trade.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com>
Sender: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com

[Angus]

Perspective.

I was born in the UK, grew up in Missouri, lived half of my life in
California, now in Texas. Sometimes Texas acts like it is/wants to be
a separate country. Toyota Tundras are advertised as "Made in Texas,
by Texans, for Texans."

Am I a member of the "Texas" group?
Am I a member of the "USA" group?
Am I a member of the "North America" group?
Am I a member of the "Earth" group?

I'm not suggesting one perspective is better or worse than another, I
guess our perspective depends upon where we want to draw the line
between "them" and "us".

Angus

[robert zeidler]

Tundra is a perfect example. 76% US made content. If you are a
citizen and pay taxes you are obviously earth group first followed by:
1. USA 2. Texas 3. North America. Texas is the best state in the
union IMHO. "Us" and "Them" is pretty difficult to define in today's
world. That would go way OT but it's agreat concept to ponder whilst
riding one's Riv down a long, lonely country rode (shameless Riv
tie-in there).

[eddi...@gmail.com]

This is such a good discussion, because it points out that Grant P. is
looking out for his customers. If someone asked me, which builder
would you rather have -- Waterford or Toyo? -- I'd say, sure. It's
nice that Waterford is U.S.-based, but I look at it as supporting
Rivendell first, and I'll let Grant decide which builders to patron.

I was skeptical of Maxway when Grant contracted them for the Bleriot,
but once I got my frameset I found it was as nicely built as my
Rambouillet and Atlantis in the areas that matter. Maybe not as nicely
painted, but it was much less expensive. I used the savings to help
offset the cost of couplers and a repaint to a different color.

I'm now a fan, generally, of Maxway for less-expensive bikes. I
believe my Rawland dSogn was built there and it's just great.

Ed Felker

[Steve Palincsar]

On Sat, 2011-01-29 at 06:18 -0800, eddi...@gmail.com wrote:
> I was skeptical of Maxway when Grant contracted them for the Bleriot,
> but once I got my frameset I found it was as nicely built as my
> Rambouillet and Atlantis in the areas that matter. Maybe not as nicely
> painted, but it was much less expensive. I used the savings to help
> offset the cost of couplers and a repaint to a different color.
>
> I'm now a fan, generally, of Maxway for less-expensive bikes. I
> believe my Rawland dSogn was built there and it's just great.

That's a common observation - the Kogswell frames are nicely built in
the areas that matter, too - and the reason why the casual comment about
Taiwan manufacture and "problems" attracted such notice.

I like beautiful expensive custom frames as much as anyone does, but I
also think there's a lot to be said for inexpensive but well built
"working class" frames.

[robert zeidler]

I think Toyo was a second choice because Waterford either couldn't or
wouldn't keep up with demand. And that kind of makes my point. Maybe
he'll (GP) browse this and weigh in real the actual story. I'm also
pretty sure Chris @ VO made attempts to get stuff made here but it
didn't work out. Again, maybe he'll comment.

RGZ

[James Warren]

I agree. I think my favorite Rivendells are the single-classy-color (like orange Hillborne!), plain headtube, less ornate lug (like Romulus) bikes. I love the understatedness accompanied by the functional awesomeness.

It's kind of like how Gandalf, even Gandalf the White, would keep his power under the surface until it was absolutely necessary.

On Jan 29, 2011, at 6:44 AM, Steve Palincsar wrote:

>
> I like beautiful expensive custom frames as much as anyone does, but I
> also think there's a lot to be said for inexpensive but well built
> "working class" frames.
>
>
>

[James Warren]

But I'm pretty sure your first sentence below is false. I remember the development of the Atlantis, and Grant's discussions in the readers talking about going with Toyo to build it exclusively (same thing later with Rambouillet). I'm pretty sure the establishment of Toyo as the builder had nothing to do with the reason you give in the first sentence below; I also saw no evidence that Waterford was ever involved with the making of those bikes for the Atlantis's first eight years at least. However, don't take my word for it, because I might not have all the details. Read the old readers, or ask Grant or someone at Rivendell directly, if you're interested in knowing how Toyo came into the picture.

-Jim W.

[robert zeidler]

...and I might be mistaken also. A million apologies if that's the case.

[cm]

I think there are too many unknowns here. All we get to do is look at
the finished frame and speculate as to the quality we cant see. We
don't get to see the tubes being mitered, prepped, brazed or anything
else until it is done. We don't know the brazers or the amount of time
they spend on each frame. I have no idea if the brazers at Toyo are as
good as the brazers at Waterford and how those compare to the Maxway
guys. Does anyone besides GP? So I take Riv's word that they are all
good. Sure my Bleriot is not as fancy as my wife's Ram but there is no
quality difference I can see and I have inspected the both pretty
closely. Are the lugs less fancy? Is the paint not quite as nicely
done? Yes and yes but I dont see those as quality differences in terms
of how well the bike is built. I do feel like there is value in buying
US made things, but after that it doesnt matter to me if they are made
in Japan or Taiwan. I think that someone in Taiwan can braze just as
well as someone in Japan who can braze just as well as someone in the
US. I think Rivendell oversold the fact that their frames were made at
Toyo and are having to overcome the idea that frames from other places
(excluding Waterfrod/US) are inferior.

Cheers!
cm

[PATRICK MOORE]

Aside: in NM, you have six traditionally distinct ethnic groups:
Indians, Hispanics, Mexicans, Anglos (includes Poles, Italians, etc,)
and Texans.

[robert zeidler]

I give up.