Do you Rapid Rise? (Share pics and thoughts)

[Eric Marth]

Do you run a Rapid Rise derailer? Do you like it? Have you had one before and just didn't get it? What's the deal?

With all the commotion over Rivendell's plan to build their own production low-normal derailer I figured I'd try one out for myself. The first one I picked up was an XTR RD-M951 which I suspected had a bent pulley cage, some of you may remember I posted about this mech a few weeks ago. 

I found this Nexave on eBay for $17 so figured I'd give it a shot. This model, to my mind, is the classic rapid rise derailer. Silver, shiny, long cage, external guide pulley, pivoting cable guide for a short bit of housing over the rear dropout. Grant mentioned that this was his favorite model, cosmetically. I like it, too. 

So far I haven't put many miles on it but no complaints. I like getting into the easier gears with a light touch. I'm running the derailer on my Appaloosa with a Silver 38/24 crank and a 9-speed 11-36 cassette. It's wired up to the original Suntour Power Thumb shifters which are mounted in the reversed, under-hand style also known as the Riv-versed or Rivendell brifter style. 

With the reverse-mounted shifters I did like pushing the lever away from me to get an easier gear with a high-normal derailer installed. That made sense. Pulling the lever to me for an easier gear is taking a bit of getting used to but the action required is so light that it's not a problem so far. 

Unfortunately, I haven't yet been in a situation where I'm climbing and experience a mis-shift under torque resulting in the derailer bumping me to an easier gear. I'm looking forward to it, really. 

One thing I can't get my head wrapped around is why Grant and Rivendell want to make this happen and go through so much trouble and expense. It is quite a complicated undertaking. It seems if you're into low-normal derailers they're out there if you look hard enough and have some patience. Perhaps it's just what they do and what they're about. They want something to exist that has gone out of production, they make it so, and that is the purest expression of their ethos and what they love about bikes and components. "Isn't this great? People should be able to find and use these!" 

[Eric Norris]

Path Less Pedaled just did an entire video episode on Rapid Rise/Low Normal derailleurs that’s definitely worth watching.

One point that came up in the comments from viewers is that shifting to lower gears is done entirely through the strength of the spring in the derailleur. Move the shifter to release more cable, and the *spring* pushes the chain onto a larger cog. In practice, according to people who had used RR/LN extensively, was that normal stuff that happens to derailleurs (they get dirty or muddy, or need lubrication) makes that spring’s job harder, with the result that it doesn’t work as well. 

Shifting to a larger cog also benefits from a slight decrease in pedaling pressure while shifting (again, to make the spring’s job easier). That’s not always possible when you’re grinding up a steep incline and need to grab a lower gear. This may be part of the reason why RR/LN was phased out … along with the fact that it was “different” in an industry that mostly prizes conformity.

Full disclosure: I’ve never used a RR/LN setup, although I do ride almost exclusively with friction-shifting downtube levers.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com
Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy
YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

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[J J]

I've been exclusively running low normal for a few years. Here's a pic of the XT M770 on my Hunqapillar. When I first started using Rapid Rise I had a few muscle memory misfires (getting the opposite of what I wanted when I moved the shift lever). It lasted a couple of weeks, but then it was like a flipping a switch in my brain and motor coordination. The logic just made so much sense, especially the consistency in left and right shifting, easier in one direction, harder in the other, on both sides. I run them with friction shifters only. It's like second nature.

I've tried XTR 970, 960, 950 series, LX and Deore models, and XT 760 and 770. I sold a few of my still-too-large hoard of Rapid Rise on this forum. Never tried the Nexave. All of them felt good, the only differences being the typical Shimano hierarchical group gradations in materials, design, refinement, weight, etc. I don't see myself going back to high normal shifting. I've gotten rid of (almost) all of my high normal mechs.

I have never experienced the issues that Eric (Norris) mentioned about low normal RDs not functioning well if they get mucked up. I maintain them no differently than how I ever treated high normal RDs. I've recently been riding in particularly wet and mucky conditions. It's as much of an issue as it is for high normal, which is to say, it has been a nonissue in my experience. There are probably numerous reasons Rapid Rise didn't succeed in the market. But common declarations about their supposed poor functionality for xyz reasons do not align with my experiences at all (and I can only talk to my own experiences). They're not harder (or easier) to set up than high normal. They index no worse (or better) than high normal. They're no less (or more) robust than high normal.  

Some purists thumb their noses at the overwrought design of the 770 and 970, the black Deore, and others. Not silver enough, not polished enough, too much paint, too flashy, etc. I think they look cool. And I will take the functionality of these with their ostensibly dowdier looks anytime over not using Rapid Rise because they're insufficiently attractive. I don't typically ogle my RDs while I'm riding :) The silvery Nexave looks great, though the red Megarange is a bit jarring to my eyes. I'm sure it functions as wonderfully as all the other Rapid Rise models and I'd jump on it if I found one for $17! 

I'm stoked about Rivendell's upcoming version. Thank goodness Grant and crew have enough gumption, principle, will, and sheer obstinacy to carry through on the project. It's only speculation, but I suspect Riv's derailer will be pretty pricey. NOS XT and XTR Rapid rise are increasingly rare, and $200 to $500 prices are not unusual on eBay, craigslist, and in independent bike shops that happen to have stock here and there. Used ones in great condition also fetch a lot of $$. I would not be surprised if Riv's is within that range. Maybe Riv will produce different tiers? Fingers crossed that they will see the light of day asap. Whatever price it ends up being, I'll try to be the first in line for one.

[Johnny Alien]

Riv is indeed making different tiers. I believe Grant said he wanted the top level to be around $300 but a plain jane low level version for something like $30.

https://www.rivbike.com/blogs/grant-petersens-blog/late-may-silver-is-a-bugger-and-the-last-good-looking-rear-derailer

[Eric Marth]

JJ thanks for sharing your experiences across several RR mechs, that's a lot of sampling. Sounds like you've found cage movement that works for you! Dig the pic as well, thank you. I agree the red decal is a bit much. Perhaps I'll scrape it off. 

Johnny, thanks for the link, that is an in-depth look at derailers I'd kind of forgotten about. It's a long one so here are some tidbits about cost and arrival, which I'm sure will change:

6. How much will it cost?

a. We don't know. Ideally we'll have a fancy first model, the SILVER OM-1; and then cheaper other models, maybe OM-2, OM-3. Maybe $300 for a fancy, and $30 for a plain? We have zero idea, but a derailer too expensive to buy is no fun and misses the point; and a super cheap derailer that doesn't account for the cost of developing and making it is ... not gonna happen. We'll just see.

11. When?

a. We're hoping the fancy by Spring 2023, and the plain by Fall 2023.

[Stephen]

I got this xtr at a swap meet last year and have been a big fan. Before I was running a deore like the one in russ' video. This is on my 2020 appaloosa with riversed silver thumbie shifters currently set up on bullmooses but I also swap out to loscos sometimes. I'm a big fan of it, though I'd agree with path less pedaled in saying its not mind blowing. I think it shifts great, I love the style of this era xtr. Haven't noticed any issues yet in terms of the spring not giving a snappy enough shift, but I definitely have had the beneficial ghost shift going uphill in the mountains since installing.

Stephen

[Eric Marth]

Stephen, that's the same XTR I had and parted with. What size is your cassette? 

I agree, my first ride with the rapid rise was not a religious experience. 

I think you can run a shorter piece of housing back there. I believe the pivoting cable stop that feeds the cable pulley is designed to minimize the run of cable and housing over the dropout. Eben Weiss/Bike Snob has the same derailer as yours and posted something about running a longer, then shorter piece of housing but now I can't find it. I did find a picture, though. 

[Stephen]

Ha! Yeah I'm a little excessive with my cable run, its been a minute since I set this up. Haven't gotten caught on anything yet!

as far as the cassette goes, its a 9 spd shimano xt, 11-34/36 (can't remember exactly how big it is and I'm away from the bike, but in the 30's somewhere... I wanna say its the 36). I'm probably maxing out what the derailer is capable of in terms of size, I remember being a little concerned if it would work when I first put it on but its been smooth and no problems.

Also on the front end I'm using the riv silver jis square taper wide/low (38/24) double crankset, which I've been very pleased with as well both aesthetically and functionally.

-Stephen

[Ginz]

I have always done rapid rise and I find that it provides the most benefit with indexed shifting.  Beware of switching to rapid rise later in life.  You may be permanently confused  about which way to shift, whether you use STI, rapid fire, grip shift, or thumbies.  With bar ends or any friction setup, I find I can adapt easily between rapid and non-rapid rise for some reason.  

[Mackenzy Albright]

I've been running an XTR rapid rise for 7+ years. I've found shifting to be much more intuitive. I generally pair with old parts (suntour barcons or silver shifters) and find less wander and accidental upshifts. The action feels substantially lighter and more accurate. In instances of missed shifts, broken cables, or any general mechanical issue it's easy to slop it to the highest possible gear to get to no interrupt a climb or rough terrain until things smooth out.  

I have an alivio on my new clem build and found it to feel stiff and touchy. It works fine. I do find it much much more difficult to emergency slap shift into the bail out in rough/steep terrain. I often just end up having to get off at that point which kills the momentum and mood - it takes more planning on the trail - but you get used to whatever you use. I think the rapid rise is a great concept for "hillibike" sort of riding for these reasons. for road riding I don't particularly care.  

[J.C. Bryant]

I actually ended up with Eric's XTR Rapid Rise mentioned in this post. I like fixing and tinkering so I figured I'd give it a shot. I've successfully fixed (i.e. manhandled) a few derailleurs that suffered from bent cages and I figured that might be the case with this one. There is definitely an alignment issue, but it's a bit more tricky this time around. There is a bit of play where the outer parallelogram attaches to the p-knuckle, specifically originating from one of the two pins making that connection. When cable tension is pulling against the spring, it appears to eliminate most (if not all) of the play, but with no cable tension whatsoever, the "play" comes into play, as the spring pushes the knuckle inward at a slight angle (against the pin in question), causing the cage to camber in a bit too close to the spokes for comfort. I imagine this is the result of normal wear-and-tear over 20+ years of its life. I have not had the time to sit down with it, but I imagine the only possible solution is to take to the offending pin with a hammer and nail punch to try and achieve a tighter connection (assuming the hole hasn't been too wallered out already). I will report back once I give it a go in case anyone is curious.

I like Rapid Rise. I picked up a NOS Deore 591 on eBay a while back. The seller had a few hundred of them available and I wish I'd snagged a couple more at that $35 price point. I think it shipped from Taiwan IIRC, but they are long gone now. Having recently purchased one of these new, I noticed Shimano packs them with the derailleur locked in a smaller-cog position using a little blue handle of sorts (this makes it look like a top-normal derailleur at first glance until the little blue piece is removed). I wonder if this was done purely to get it to fit in a smaller box or if there is any benefit to storing them in this way.

Regardless of the price, I will probably pick up at least one of Riv's RR derailleurs, purely out of respect for the gumption and determination required to undertake such a feat. Either way, it will surely be a cool thing to have and the mock-ups so far look really neat.

-J.C.

[Scott Luly]

Greetings, Eric and all:

I do Rapid Rise...and love it!!!

I'm age 53 now and did a lot of mountain biking in my youth from around 85 to 92. Last bike I rode back then was groupo equipped with 1st gen XTR M900 (a high normal).

Three decades later I find myself returning to the saddle (dental school, move to Montana, family, etc. filled gap). Over the last year I did a fair bit of research looking into early generation XTR bits. Over that period of time I located an entire group of XTR M900 and built up a bike with it. It was a fun throwback to my youth and the bike shifted good by my measure from 30 years ago. Many folks fancy cantis, but I've never been in love with them, mostly because of adjustment issues. That got me into looking at the M950/951 group sets for V-brakes and what they are all about (great discovery!), since they weren't introduced until after I strayed from riding back in the day. Along that path I stumbled upon the words "Rapid Rise" and "low normal." After reading-up on it, it made perfect sense in theory: using stored energy in RD spring (most loaded with stored energy in smallest cog) to aid in shifting from a smaller to larger cog. Ima stop here, as not to ramble and bore. There's good information out there if one wants deeper dive on function.

I ended-up purchasing a Rapid Rise RD and a set of V-brakes. Over past few weekends, I rode about 30 hours in mountains and foothills of Montana (one forgets how therapeutic riding is...).

Hands down the Rapid Rise RD functions much better than the M900 high normal version. Simply, it's much more of a joy to ride/shift, crisp and deliberate. Who panics to shift into a taller gear? I'm a bit surprised how much better the 951 shifts over the M900. Also, when I held each in my hands for inspection, the 951 is much more substantial (including pulleys).

The M951 Rapid Rise RD on my bike works perfectly/flawlessly. Yes, it works that good. It provides the joy one finds in discovering a functional bit that works proper.

I'll never purchase a low normal RD again and have already purchased a quiver of M951's for future builds.

Don't get me wrong, high normal RD's get the job done. But low normal RD's get the job done much better. My opinion comes from very recent back-to-back testing of M900 and M951 versions.

Just my humble opinion.

Scott in Montana

 

[Patrick Moore]

The rear derailleur on my first-gen Sam Hill, Riv's shop-floor model, was equipped with an LX rapid rise rd. I used it for the first few miles with the Silver bes (friction) and found that the action was very light and the shifting very precise; certainly one of the most precise-shifting and easy to shift rds I've used.

But I didn't take to the reverse action and after a short while switched to an equally light and precise shifting but normal direction road rd made or sold by Nashbar; I forget the made-up brand name, but it's cheap and easy to find and comes or came in road and mtb versions. 

The LX worked very well, but I simply found the reverse lever action annoying.

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[Bill Schairer]

From time to time I have used reverse pull front derailleurs on a tandem because the springs of normal pull front derailleurs were of insufficient strength to reliably drop the chain onto the granny, a most undesirable and annoying thing.  Based upon that experience, I do not want to rely upon a spring to get me to a lower gear.  I've had well worn normal rear derailleurs have trouble getting to the smallest cog at times, or be a bit slow on the upshift - mildly annoying.  But, when I want a lower gear, I want it NOW.  I like my VGT's and Cyclones.  On the other hand, at my age, perhaps switching would confuse my brain enough to help ward off dementia.

The new Rene Herse derailleurs don't rely upon a spring either way, do they?  But then, they can't be used with cogs with as many teeth as I want.

Bill S

San Diego

[Eric Marth]

Thanks JC, Bill, Patrick and Scott for more takes on Rising Rapidly. 

JC, do let me know if you can repair or finesse that 951 into shape! 

Scott, gotta admire your pile of 951s. Do you have an idea of cassette capacity differences between the medium and long cage versions? 

Bill, I am also a fan of my Cyclone GT!

I've ridden with my Nexave T4000 a bit more and have to say it shifts very smoothly and quietly, sometimes silently. Still early stages. Oh, for anyone interested, it's rated for 34T and I'm easily and eagerly shifting 36T. 

[Ana Candela]

Yes, and love it! I got one last year thanks to Grant's suggestion: Shimano Nexave RD-C505. It is rather large compared to the other ones I'm seeing posted here, but hey, function before form. I am very much looking forward to Rivendell's derailer project because function will be enhanced by form. I think it's coming along beautifully :)

My RR der is the #1 upgrade that I've done to my bike, and that's saying a lot! The reason is thanks to its logic of shifting: it doesn't twist my brain and wreak havoc like "normal" ones do. I always thought the shifting in bikes was counterintuitive, but I assumed that was the way of derailers. Then at some point Grant brought up the rapid-rise derailers in the Blahg, and I almost heard angels sing, haha!

Now both derailers work with the same logic: if I'm climbing UP a hill, I pull either or both shifters UP (easy gear); if I'm going DOWN or flat at speed, I push DOWN (hard gear). This just makes sense. And then with friction shifters it is just delightful to shift. So smooth and almost silent. Bliss!

Below are a couple photos from last Sunday. Long live the Rapid-Rise Derailer!

-Ana in Seattle

[Eric Marth]

Great pics, Ana, and yeah, those Nexaves are quite large! 

Did you all read the latest Blahg? Seems the prototypes are crazy expensive. They'll be CNC machined. Here's Grant's quote from the fabricators: 

"50 pieces. These will be made by CNC machining.... They will cost $345.5 USD each,  total $17,275 USD. The cost base on the QTY"

More here. Um, does it seem like maybe 50 Rivendell customers would pool together and chunk in a non-refundable $350 towards getting this project moving in the (opposite) direction?  

[J J]

Yeah, I read the blog. The $345 would presumably be Riv's wholesale price, right? So... assuming a nominal retail markup of, say, 20%, the  price would be ~$415 for the end user. No idea if there is a standard industry markup, and we know Rivendell marches to their own rhythm. A 10% markup would be ~$380; 30% ~$450. Grant seemed disheartened. I really appreciate his transparency. 

(Your build videos are great btw Eric.)  

[brendonoid]

A bit more concerning in the blahg was that the tooling to make the non-cnc'd version was going to cost ~$19k?

I suspect that would be a no go for proceeding.

I sort of wish Paul or white industries or someone local would just do it for a crazy expensive price. At least it would be MUSA and you know it would be great quality, considering what Paul derailleurs go for in the second hand market I have no doubt he would be able to sell them even at a crazy price point.

I wouldn't be happy paying 500 for a made in china derailleur. That is as much a political choice as anything else but I wouldn't do it.

I might consider paying a grand for a Paul derailleur though...

[Eric Daume]

$19k was for one cage plate. So, two cage plates, and what? four parts of the upper link? Probably well over $100k total in tooling.

Bringing back rapid rise ain't worth it. 

Eric

who has tried RR but doesn't see the point

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[brendonoid]

Grant has said previously that no one local is interested, including Paul. I was more pointing out that I wouldn't be paying hundreds of dollars for anything made in China, and that the prices Grant was talking about definitely makes domestic production more attractive.

There are lots of places in Asia to ethically produce something and China is not one of those places. Full stop. I don't really care what lies they tell you or fake factory floor they show you pictures of.

I suspect Eric Daume is right. It aint worth it.

[Corwin Zechar]

Really hard to make ends meet with a 20% markup. With a 10% or 20% markup, you're more likely to be selling groceries than bikes.

I would be discouraged too. Working hard and putting lots of resources behind a project you love - only to have it become impossible is really tough to deal with.

Regards,

Corwin

[Eric Marth]

In case anyone missed it, Grant posted some updates on their new derailer.

Looks like they found another place to have them fabricated (no more $350 samples for them) and that retail cost (for us!) will be $175. That's about $125 more than I've ever paid for a rear derailer. What do you all think? Would you spend the $175 for one of these when you can get a vintage Shimano rapid rise on ebay for way less? 

Image below is latest design. I think they mentioned on instagram that the red parts will not be red. Thank goodness. Give me silver with black pulley wheels. If you thought that Shimano 600EX arabesque flourishes were too groovy, well, check out the peace sign detail in that pulley cage. 

[lconley]

I love the Campagnolo inspired textured surface and the Shimano Crane GS (Schwinn Le Tour GT300) inspired drillium pulley cage. I will buy one.

Laing

[Piaw Na]

That cage looks too short to shift a 34t cassette, let alone my current 51t. I did try a bike with a rapid rise RD when I visited Rivendell. It feels kinda funny, but no doubt I'd get used to it. But the limited derailleur wrap would definitely rule it out for my use.

[Johnny Alien]

It's a pricey piece. I may give one a shot to support RIvendell but it's a really tough sell when my $25 big pulley Altus rear shifts perfectly and kind of looks cool in it's cheapness. The fact that cheap derailers work as good as the expensive ones was hammered home by Grant for years.  That said I won't be buying a new bike for quite some time so spending some money to change components on the ones I have are definitely in the cards.

[Jay Lonner]

Probably not, my vintage SunTour stuff is going strong on my existing fleet, and future bike purchases will almost certainly have contemporary drivetrains.

Jay Lonner

Bellingham, WA

On Sep 24, 2022, at 7:07 AM, lconley <lco...@brph.com> wrote:

I love the Campagnolo inspired textured surface and the Shimano Crane GS (Schwinn Le Tour GT300) inspired drillium pulley cage. I will buy one.

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[Bill Lindsay]

This demographic is the type that will handwring over the price while the part is available, and then bellyache when it is not available anymore, finally bemoaning "if they ever bring it back I would buy two!"  :)

It's what some people say about Paul rear derailers.  They were what $350?  They/we complained that they were expensive, then complained when they went away, and now you often see comments "I hope Paul reintroduces their RD!"  

Anyway, I'm almost as into Rapid Rise as Grant is, so I bought a bunch of XT M751 when they were being closed out, so I have a lifetime supply.  That said, a bike company in 2022 developing their own rear derailer is kind of an awesome achievement, and I'm proud of Grant and the rest of those who worked on it.  I'd probably buy one even as an artifact of audacity.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Eric Marth]

Laing, I love the look of those mechs. The Le Tour, the Rally, and the new Record. With the drillium it does seem they're harkening back to the cages of the Shimano Crane. It almost looks like your picture is from their research files! 

Bill, I think you're right, we'd moan if we missed out. I think I'll get one just to have one and to support such an insane project for a company of Riv's size to undertake and, hopefully, see through to the end. 

Were those Paul derailers any good? They look cool but I've never read any accounts of how they worked (or didn't). 

[Bill Schairer]

My mechanical reasoning challenged mind does not get the apparently self evident "mechanically, logically, intuitively, low-normal/RapidRise derailers are better…"  If I cared that my shifters both went the same way to get to a lower gear I would probably go to a reverse pull front derailleur to achieve that.  I agree, I want my low NOW and my experience is I get that when I am pulling the derailleur not when the spring is.  To me, this is why a reverse pull front derailleur on a tandem is sometimes a solution to having trouble shifting to a granny on a tandem - the springs just seem to have trouble counteracting any chain tension.  It is easier on a single to release all the tension so the spring of normal pull front derailleurs usually handle that shift without too much trouble.  I also don't buy that low normal didn't take because of racers.  The slant parallelogram was a big success for Suntour because they actually were so much better even though the pros weren't using Suntour derailleurs.  I kinda think that if OM actually was so much better they also would have succeeded in the market.  I have nothing against them and think it is great that there are choices to meet various needs or desires, I'm just not personally moved. 

 I still find the Rene Herse rear derailleur the most intriguing of the small shop derailleurs.  If it could handle a cog larger than what FKT riders use I might even be tempted to give one a try.  Wait, I thought he sold those but I can't find them on their website??

Bill S 

San Diego

[J J]

I would definitely buy a Riv OM RD. No hesitation. 

I also have a hoard of low normal mechs. After I tried one and loved it, I went all in with almost every Shimano model I could find. Maybe too much all in! But I like having multiple redundant backups of things that work for me. I have sold some because I’m the living embodiment of the tension between the urge to acquire and the urge to purge.

I can’t wait to see Rivendell’s actual production model. The drawing suggests the design is an amalgam of different RDs, high end and low end, part homage, part “borrowing.” So curious how unified it will look in actuality. But ultimately what matters most is that it will even come into existence, being so contrary to the market tide… and how it functions on a bike in the real world. 

[John Dewey]

Eric, et. al.:

I stumbled upon Shimano RR M760 quite a few years ago and snatched a bunch of 'em up. Enough to mount on four 'daily' riders and a few more to replace any that stop working or suffer trauma, etc.. Shift levers are all Dura-Ace 9 speed mounted on DT.

All of them are now as sharp and precise as the day they were attached. I don't ride gravel very often, my bikes are primarily built for the road—so there is that. But for every-day riding on the road, I can't image that giant spring softening up. And shifting up the cassette, especially under load, is as smooth and quiet and 'effortless' as can be. I know that's Grant's primary reasoning, because he told me.

The one caveat—if there is one—is that if you suffer just a bit of dyslexia as I do (a left/right kind of dys) my experience tells me I can't go back and forth from 'low normal' to 'normal'. Makes me crazy. If you can always remember left from right, you'll probably have no problems. 

With a bit of compulsive polishing, these M760s are gorgeous units and will look perfectly 'at home' on any bike no matter the builder: 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/146626768@N06/48660635053/in/dateposted-public/

Another probably unnecessary/stupid maneuver I habitually follow is that when I park a bike at ride's end, I move the chain up the cassette to relax the spring. Don't know if this really matters or not, but it makes some sense to me.

BEST / Jock Dewey / San Anselmo

On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 1:09:31 PM UTC-7 campyo...@me.com wrote:

Path Less Pedaled just did an entire video episode on Rapid Rise/Low Normal derailleurs that’s definitely worth watching.

One point that came up in the comments from viewers is that shifting to lower gears is done entirely through the strength of the spring in the derailleur. Move the shifter to release more cable, and the *spring* pushes the chain onto a larger cog. In practice, according to people who had used RR/LN extensively, was that normal stuff that happens to derailleurs (they get dirty or muddy, or need lubrication) makes that spring’s job harder, with the result that it doesn’t work as well. 

Shifting to a larger cog also benefits from a slight decrease in pedaling pressure while shifting (again, to make the spring’s job easier). That’s not always possible when you’re grinding up a steep incline and need to grab a lower gear. This may be part of the reason why RR/LN was phased out … along with the fact that it was “different” in an industry that mostly prizes conformity.

Full disclosure: I’ve never used a RR/LN setup, although I do ride almost exclusively with friction-shifting downtube levers.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com
Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy
YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

On Aug 22, 2022, at 12:46 PM, Eric Marth <eric...@gmail.com> wrote:

Do you run a Rapid Rise derailer? Do you like it? Have you had one before and just didn't get it? What's the deal?

With all the commotion over Rivendell's plan to build their own production low-normal derailer I figured I'd try one out for myself. The first one I picked up was an XTR RD-M951 which I suspected had a bent pulley cage, some of you may remember I posted about this mech a few weeks ago. 

I found this Nexave on eBay for $17 so figured I'd give it a shot. This model, to my mind, is the classic rapid rise derailer. Silver, shiny, long cage, external guide pulley, pivoting cable guide for a short bit of housing over the rear dropout. Grant mentioned that this was his favorite model, cosmetically. I like it, too. 

So far I haven't put many miles on it but no complaints. I like getting into the easier gears with a light touch. I'm running the derailer on my Appaloosa with a Silver 38/24 crank and a 9-speed 11-36 cassette. It's wired up to the original Suntour Power Thumb shifters which are mounted in the reversed, under-hand style also known as the Riv-versed or Rivendell brifter style. 

With the reverse-mounted shifters I did like pushing the lever away from me to get an easier gear with a high-normal derailer installed. That made sense. Pulling the lever to me for an easier gear is taking a bit of getting used to but the action required is so light that it's not a problem so far. 

Unfortunately, I haven't yet been in a situation where I'm climbing and experience a mis-shift under torque resulting in the derailer bumping me to an easier gear. I'm looking forward to it, really. 

One thing I can't get my head wrapped around is why Grant and Rivendell want to make this happen and go through so much trouble and expense. It is quite a complicated undertaking. It seems if you're into low-normal derailers they're out there if you look hard enough and have some patience. Perhaps it's just what they do and what they're about. They want something to exist that has gone out of production, they make it so, and that is the purest expression of their ethos and what they love about bikes and components. "Isn't this great? People should be able to find and use these!" 

<IMG_1983.JPG>

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[John Dewey]

Last M760 RR data point — looking back at my old bike pix, at least one of my reverse-normal M760s has been hard-at-work for 9 years. Was mounted in 2013 for sure, maybe just a bit earlier. 

Jock Dewey

[Joe Bernard]

My extremely "grouchy old man" feedback is the one RapidRise I acquired was a pain in the patooty to install and I didn't find any benefit to the reverse shifting. In this reporter's opinion! 🙋‍♂️

Joe "I don't mind if others like them" Bernard 

[Eric Daume]

I’m with Joe on this one. It’s a lot of work on something that’s already been rejected by riders… repeatedly. 

Eric 

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[Joe Bernard]

To be clear I see Riv's point in making one, it's a different thing from what's currently available so they'll have that niche. I just don't want one. 

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[lconley]

I have only seen the Nivex / Rene Herse derailleur for sale on the limited edition 80th anniversary Rene Herse bicycle that sold out immediately. The Nivex / Rene Herse derailleur mounts to a braze-on in the chainstay. This picture is from Jan's PBP bike:

On Disraeli Gears, they show a Nivex derailleur that clamps to the rear chainstay. This derailleur dates back to 1937 - and some call Grant a Retro-Grouch!

It was supposedly in production as of April, but subject to supply issues along with everything else. Note that is is a "no normal" derailleur - it has two cables and no spring (other than the pulley cage) - it requires a pulling cable in both directions.

I am kind of partial to Rene Herse stuff, my custom has their tires, crankset, brakes, front cable hanger, headset spacers, and water bottle cage bolts. They pay a lot of attention to the appearance of the component - unlike components such as Paul brakes and Rivendell cranksets, which are kind of brutalist to my eye. But I do not think I will trying the Rene Herse front or rear derailleurs , though.

Laing

[Eric Marth]

Laing — Thanks for sharing that pic of the RH rear mech. I've seen it before but haven't read much about it. Are these supposed to offer great shifting, justifying their resurrection? Any chance they shift as well as a Suntour Cyclone? I'm sure I wouldn't be down for the cost. I remember the 80th anniversary bikes being around $14,000. 

I agree that RH makes refined and good-looking parts. While I have no complaints about how Paul brakes look I do understand what people mean when they say they look CAD-heavy, stamped, unrefined, or as you point out, brutalist. I definitely prefer the look of the RH roller straddle cable hangers to the Moon Unit. Also agree about the Silver and  Sugino/Clipper cranks, there are definitely better looking cranks out there. 

[Eric Marth]

I was reading some Rivendell Readers this weekend and encountered a few mentions of Rapid Rise mechs. Interesting to see Grant's takes when Rapid Rise was new and in production. 

These are from RR 33 (Fall 2004) and RR 22 (Winter 2001). 

[J J]

Thanks for sending the excerpts, Eric! Super interesting to read Grant’s thoughts so early on. That was the seed that led to him to the wild idea of designing and then manufacturing his own low normal RDs.

[Luke Hendrickson]

I shall most likely be buying this as my friend (Jim of Merry Sales) is involved, I want to support Riv, and this will officially be the only good-looking contemporary rd made. That said, I happen to love what I’m running rn: a three pulley Suntour XC from about 1986.

[Eric Marth]

Wow, Luke, I've never seen one of those. I had to check out Disraeli Gears for more info. 

"So what in heaven’s name is this? SunTour were wrestling with the demands of the new mountain bikes, with their triple chainsets and huge gear capacities. They hated the very long pulley cages, which had limited ground clearance and irritating chain slap - so they invented the ‘3 Pulley System’. With one brilliant stroke it gave huge capacity with a relatively short cage. Ground clearance was restored, chain slap minimised.

Fantastic - except for the fact that it looked so weird that, as you cycled by, dogs barked, babies cried and your friends laughed. At you, not with you. Sales were lamentably low."

[Luke Hendrickson]

It’s super cool!

[Garth]

I'd buy one of those cool looking Suntour Rd's any day ! Man I miss Suntour stuff.  I have no need or desire for a reverse direction RD though.

[Kim Hetzel]

I was given one a Shimano XTR RD-M951 Rear Derailleur years ago. I installed on my bicycle. I rode it for a very very short time. I could not stand it whatsoever !  I changed it out. Gave it away.

Kim Hetzel

Yelm, WA.

[Luke Hendrickson]

@garth – I have mostly Suntour on my Riv rn. I just love how they made stuff. Such a bummer that they went away…

[J J]

A few months ago I saw a SunTour XC triple pulley RD for the first time. Pictured here. It was on an old mountain bike that hangs high on a wall in a DC bike shop. I was confused and intrigued. The extremely ornery, loud, and hilarious shop foreman, who was helping a customer, noticed me staring at it. He said, “Cool, huh?” 

I nodded and pointed to the XC. “It has three….?” 

Shouting over the customer the mechanic said: “Exactly, bro. Three. A triple. It’s wild. That was my daily ride since forever. But you see the seat tube? Some asshole took a crowbar to the lock and crushed it. Couldn’t even steal it properly. It’s too far gone to repair. So I hung it for posterity. And before you ask, no, I will not sell you that derailleur.” Then he turned back to the customer.  

[Pancake]

Built up a Nishiki Bel Air for my dad as a grocery getter … including the triple pulley read derailer:

[Eric Marth]

Nice one, Pancake. Dang, those mechs are wild. Looks like the smallest pulley wheel isn't engaged in this position?

[Pancake]

Exactly right Eric, that photo shows the third pulley just disengaged because it’s in the tallest gear on the cassette and middle chainring. Less slack in the chain means the chain is pulling the derailer mechanism forward enough to disengage the third pulley. But when you shift down the third pulley engages and makes it act like a longer cage derailler, eating up slack and avoiding chain slap while all the while keeping the lowest pulleys far off the ground. It’s clever! But Dad needs a read rack and panniers to make grocery trips easier so the bike will be in my garage again soon - I’ll take some closer up photos in different positions then. 

I do wonder ho/if  a significantly larger pulley could do something similar but that’s above my pay grade. 

Abe

[Luke Hendrickson]

Ha! Loving the three pulley love on here. Shorter cage with the chain wrap of long cage rds. Super fun. 

[J Imler]

HAD to have it. Necessitated a two pulley donor to be functional.

[Pam Bikes]

Finally took a picture.  I also have one in the closet.  Would you like a pic of that as well?  The picture is of the derailer on my 2011 Betty Foy.  One of the original parts still not replaced.  It's got over 60,000 miles on it.  I don't know why it rotated the picture.  And don't know how to fix it.  

[Luke Hendrickson]

Yes!!! It looks wonderful. How’re you liking the action/shifting?