Wheel-building Advice

[Aaron Mermelstein]

Hello,

I'm interested in building my first wheelset! I have worked on my own bikes for a while and consider myself to be moderately handy, so I think it would be a fun experience and challenge to learn this new skill.

I want to build a relatively simple, but dependable, wheelset with Velocity Cliffhangers and Deore (rim brake) hubs, for commuting and trail riding. I'm a bit clueless about spokes and would love some advice.  Would double butted spokes be too flimsy? any brand suggestions? 36 front and rear, or 32 front and 36 rear? For context: I'm pretty slender, barely 135 after Thanksgiving dinner, but I don't like to pack light for bike packing and I want to be able to ride these wheels fairly hard on fire roads without worry.

I'm having a hard time figuring out where to get these parts (mostly hubs and spokes). let me know if there are any good online suppliers or East Bay bike shops that are recommended for sourcing these parts.

Also, if anybody knows of a good bike kitchen/coop in the East Bay let me know. I'm about to move out of SF and won't have easy access the the Bike Kitchen in the Mission and would rather not have to buy a truing stand.

Any other advice for a first time wheel-builder would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

-Aaron

[Cyclofiend Jim]

If you haven't heard the acronym "AASHTA", now's a good time to learn it. 

"As Always Sheldon Has The Answer" (RIP Sheldon Brown) - in this case, an excellent overview of how-to resides here:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

FWIW, I've always used double-butted spokes. DT's. 

Take your time and enjoy the process.

Jim

[aeroperf]

Suggestions…

For the prep - if it is just you, 32 spoke double-butted should be fine.  If you want to add another 40 pounds, go with 36 spokes.
I ordered my rims directly from Velocity.  I got my Deore hubs from eBay, since I wanted specific units.  There is also Amazon.
For spokes, go to your Local Bike Shop, since they have spoke length calculators.  Double butted cost about $1.5x un-butted spokes.  Double butted, in my opinion, look slightly nicer and weigh slightly less, but either is fine.

Then assemble per Jim Langley.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUqul03hbZ8

Snug all the spokes up to the same depth with a screwdriver, and then take the assembled wheel back to the LBS for truing.
If you have a plastic hammer you can tap down the bends where the spokes exit the hubs, but for the first set you can leave this to the LBS when they tension and true the wheel.

I found tensioning and truing to be kind of a zen thing - and easy, though repetitive.  Given the cost of truing stands, and what the LBS charges to do it, you have to decide how many wheels you want to do in your life, though.

Figure about 15 wheels would pay for a good stand.

But the feeling of riding on wheels you built yourself - priceless.

[John Rinker]

Excellent resources have already been suggested. I also find the library here:

https://wheelfanatyk.com/

To be filled with some fine advice.

"But the feeling of riding on wheels you built yourself- priceless."  You betcha!

Take it so and enjoy! Cheers, John

[Jeremy Rossen]

Hello!

I am looking for the following racks -- maybe someone here has one that could part with?

• Nitto M12 rack
• Nitto Campee rear rack (700c)
• Nitto Campee front rack (700c)
• Nitto Campee mini front rack (700c)
• Nitto 33R rear rack (700c)
• Velo Orange Campee rear rack (700c)

I am also looking for canvas panniers -- Berthoud, Rivendell, etc -- single or pair.

thanks!

Jeremy

[A. Walton]

Dear Aaron, you might try Doug Williams in Oakland: https://runciblewheelworks.com . I did a wheelbuilding workshop w/ him recently (Doug built the front, I followed along and built the rear) and had a great experience. I think he will work with you to get the bits and pieces ordered (I supplied hubs + rims since I had them, he took care of ordering spokes), in addition to recommending a good setup. Very highly recommend!

Alex, also in Oakland

On Monday, September 2, 2024 at 9:26:05 AM UTC-7 aaronmer...@gmail.com wrote:

[Cormac O'Keeffe]

One bit of advice would be to go for it! Start with building a front wheel and of you like that, build the rear. As someone here mentioned, even if it doesn't work you can always have the LBS as a Plan B.

[Will Boericke]

I always use DB spokes; because they stretch, they hold up better.  32 spokes is more than enough.  Most mtb wheels today are 28h, FWIW.  It is hard to find 36h hubs and rims, to boot.  Use brass nipples.  Measure twice.  I like Roger Musson's book - cheap and useful.  I made his ERD tool and it works great.  Ebay for hubs, I get spokes from Lee Kilpatrick (lkspoke at yahoo.com).

Will near Boston

[Bill Lindsay]

Doug took all the manual machining classes at Laney College along with me.  Teacher Adam, who was always impressed at how calm Doug was in class, nicknamed him "Comfortable Doug".  I knew he had his hand in the game, but did not know he had a wheel building gig.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

Laney College Fighting Eagle

[Peter Adler]

Every amateur wheelbuilder has their own preferred spokes; DT Swiss, Sapim from Belgium and Phil Wood are generally regarded as excellent by everyone. I like double-butted Sapim Race or Sapim Laser, which used to be available in all lengths for the crazy cheap price of $0.40 for the Races from DansComp, a BMX mailorder operation in Indianapolis. Company sold; road length spokes discontinued, so Sapim costs the same as DT now from the normal sources :-(

As for East Bay bike kitchens, you can't spit here without hitting one. Some are on a pay for bench time basis, and others expect a volunteer commitment. Most would be happy/grateful to get both:

Berkeley:

Street Level Cycles/Waterside Workshop

West Berkeley on the northeast shore of Aquatic Park next to the freeway at the University Avenue exit. The community shop is open Sat-Sun 12-6, although they've been open a lot of Friday afternoons this summer. Three Park TS-2 stands, but they're in a westward-facing window, so the glre can get annoying on sunny days

Biketopia

South Berkeley south of Ashby BART, Alcatraz at the corner of Adeline. The community shop is open Tue-Thu roughly from 4-8, depending on which volunteers show up. Small, cramped shop; Park TS-2 stands

Emeryville:

Biketopia Annex

One block south of the AMTRAK station under the Powell Street overpass to the malls by the freeway, it's the satellite location of the Berkeley Biketopia, where a different set of volunteers builds bike from donated frames/components. Warehouse location, no real window exposure. One Park TS-2 that I remember, but maybe it's two. Open Mon & Wed 5-8.

Oakland:

Spokeland

North Oakland, 37th near West, one block south of West MacArthur a few blocks west of MacArthur BART. Hours at this stage are 12:30-3PM on Sunday only; not the kind of time window you'd need for a first wheelbuild - you'd get a quarter of the way in, and have to bail. Apparently, there are scheduled appointments on Tuesdays, so you might talk to them and see if you can come up with a suitable arrangement

The Bikery

Fruitvale, 23rd Ave just west of E. 14th/International Blvd. This used to be a shop where you could work on your own stuff, but I'm not certain that's still the case; I usually only stick my head in to root around for parts. They keep the kind of hours that suggest it's organized more like a regular shop: Mon-Tue, Thu-Sat 11-5

The Crucible

West Oakland, entrances on 7th and 8th Streets one block east (downtown-ward) from West Oakland BART. This is an industrial arts center where they do welding, forging/casting (hence the name), woodworking etc. There's also a bicycle unit, open Thu 4-8; they've got the ubiquitous Park TS-2

Peter "local boy makes...eh, OK I guess"  Adler

Berkeley, California/USA

[Nick Payne]

My opinions, as an amateur wheelbuilder who must have built about 50 pairs of wheels over the past several decades:

1. With modern spokes, 32h rims & hubs will be more than sufficiently strong for loaded touring. I haven't built a wheel with more than 32 spokes since the last pair of tandem wheels I built about 25 years ago, and the last time I broke a spoke in one of my wheels was in a wheel that I'd built with cheap galvanized spokes in the 1970s.
   
2. Double butted spokes will give a stronger wheel than plain gauge, as the midsection of the spoke is more elastic, leading to less flex of the j-bend while riding. The rim will fail long before you reach the failure point of a 2mm/1.8mm/2mm butted spoke.
3. You can build a perfectly good pair of wheels using the frame & fork as your truing stand. I must have built a couple of dozen wheels before I bothered to get a dedicated stand.
4. I use the DTSwiss online spoke calculator: https://spokes-calculator.dtswiss.com/en/. You can use it anonymously, but I prefer to create a free login, so that I can save the calculations.
5. Measure rim ERDs yourself. I've found in the past that manufacturer's published values can be incorrect.
6. I like Sapim spokes. I buy them from Bike24 in Germany - their pricing is €0.50 (about $US0.55) for Sapim race 2/1.8/2 silver spokes: https://www.bike24.com/p229366.html?sku=111090.
7. On your first wheel, you will most probably not get the spokes sufficiently up to tension.
8. Get a good spoke key that won't give you sore fingers from use. My favourite is the old Var Professional, but I'm not sure if it is still made. Failing that, the Rixen & Kaul Spokey is another one that grips three of the flats on a spoke nipple - most keys only grip two.

Nick Payne

[Laing Conley]

I use Wheelsmith spokes when I can find them and Sapim when I cannot. Lately I have been getting them from Peter White. I prefer 36 spoke patterns to 32 because the spoke patterns other than radial pull the rim together at the rim seam, probably more of a habit than a necessary practice at this point. I also use Wheelsmith spoke prep. Note that Wheelsmith has been out of business for a number of years, but you can still find it. I have been building my own wheels for maybe 46 years, started out using the bike and reversed brake pads as a truing stand, but hard to beat a good truing stand with dial indicators and a tension gage. 

Laing Conley 

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[Laing Conley]

I am still using the same green Park nipple tool that I started out with 46 years ago. 

Laing Conley 

[Michael Doleman]

I'll throw-in some "seconds" on things already said, here, and follow-up with some other info.

As far as materials sourcing, I tend to go to the following:

bikehubstore.com (they have more than just hubs)

wheelbuildingparts.com

prowheelbuilder.com

wheelfanatyk.com

I'll definitely concur with other advice given with respect to double-butted spokes: always use them. Contrary to what may seem intuitive, they are not only lighter, but also stronger than straight gauge spokes. The only reason to use straight gauge spokes is that they are slightly cheaper -- which is not a good reason since the savings is miniscule compared to the total cost of a wheel.

Back in the day I was a huge fan of 36 spokes, but with modern materials 32 is absolutely fine for almost anything except heavily loaded touring on rugged terrain.

Though it's a significant expense, my opinion is that you will make your life easier by investing in a nice, self-centering truing stand. They can often be had on ebay, but be careful about what you're getting.

Another relatively expensive-ish item that I would recommend to a beginning builder is a tensiometer. If you're not checking actual tension while building and truing, it's surprisingly easy to get things out of whack pretty quickly. A tensiometer keeps everything honest and -- at least in my opinion -- is crucial with the deep-dishing required for many modern rear wheels. Hitting the tension recommended by the rim manufacturer is important.

Clean and prep the threads appropriately. That means cleaning in a non-polar and polar solvent, and then using an anti-friction, adhering prep such as that sold by Wheelfanatyk. Don't put oils on the threads, or on the spoke nipples, contrary to what you might hear elsewhere.

But DO put a highly viscous oil between the spoke nipple and the rim. This is a very important step that many people miss. Wheelfanatyk also sells a great build oil that I use and highly recommend.

I've used many different spokes for at least 100 builds, and I've landed on Sapim as my favorites. I use them, now, exclusively.

Get a copy of Jobst Brandt's book. No other single source of information has better, more solidly-grounded advice on just about every aspect of spoked bicycle wheels.

I live in Portland, but my brother lives in SF, and I've spent some time in the SF Bike Kitchen. IMO, not the most conducive environment for concentrating on something like a first wheel build. The work areas, also, are a bit small for wheel building. You need to be able to focus and spread out, so I would highly recommend doing it in your own home/place if you can. At the very least, lace your wheels at home and then take them to a co-op shop for the tensioning and truing.

Above all: go in with confidence, knowing that it ain't rocket science. You can 100% build a pro-quality wheel just by following some key pieces of advice and being methodical about it.

Maybe even MORE above all: don't take my advice on anything without looking into the details yourself. It's one of those things where you can ask 10 wheel builders their opinion on any given topic, and you'll get 14 answers. Everyone's got their take to add, and you'll do well to approach it from your own angle and gather your own information. Personally, I can't stand to just do something a certain way just because someone in authority said so. I have to know why I'm doing it that way. Learn WHY before actually doing, and the pieces of the puzzle will all start to fit together for you.

[aeroperf]

Tips just for fun…

If you smile at them, some LBS have a loaner truing stand that they will let you take home and try.
Still, let them do the final tweaks for your first batch.

Be prepared to pull your first wheel apart at least twice.

When you look through the valve hole, you should be able to read the text on the hub.

Don’t forget the rim tape.

[ascpgh]

Great tips and personal prefs so far. 

What helped me was anything that better organized my physical process so it didn't have to all be in my mind or hands, potentially disrupted when the page in my Jobst Brandt The Bicycle Wheel had to be turned. Your space is what it is but one thing really helped wherever assembling a wheel.

The thing was a vertical rod with a stop we made from some retail fixture with a weighted base that held a piece of rod stock with its end,  ground to a QR's diameter and a washer dropped down onto the taper and JB Welded in place. 

The hub drops onto the thinned rod and removes holding the hub and retaining spatial orientation for the process of dropping in sets of spokes and lacing them to the appropriate rim holes, keeping everything oriented while the first sets of spokes in. A piece of rod clamped in the bench vice, if clearance permitted the assembled wheel in that space, would work too. Being able to sit on a stool with the hub on this at the level of my thighs let the rim sit naturally on them in the slack before giving the twist for the crossing spoke sets. 

Freeing both of your hands and not using brain function to hold the hub takes a chore from the process and helps keep things physically oriented in a crucial phase that is often the point when "first time" errors come. 

May not seem like a big deal but similar to some features my car has, each seeming pedantic on their face, when used they really ease the task. Turning on the adaptive cruise control and lane departure warning and recentering from the start of a long drive made this the best long distance vehicle I've had, all from removing what seemed like trivial driving functions. "How do you eat an elephant" sort of thing.  

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[John Dewey]

A couple of things—true and dish wheels before you bring up final tension…so you don’t pull any of the ferrules out. That’s a bummer. 

And once you think you’ve done it, bounce wheel on the floor as you rotate it to release any wind up  Then lay wheel down, and lean on it as you continue to rotate. Flip over and repeat. 

You’ll know ya done good if you don’t hear any creaking when you take your first spin down the road. 

Wheel building is great Zenfull exercise and it’s skill we should all perfect 👍 

Jock

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[John Dewey]

And yes, that little hard-cover Jobst book is the bible…that along with truing stand, dishing gauge and some patience are all you need. 

[Peter White]

I first heard of this issue of some spoke patterns pulling the joint together, and other patterns pulling the joint apart in the 1970s, when most aluminum rims didn't have welded joints, but were instead pinned. One of the popular bike repair books was critical of 32 spoke wheels for this reason. But there's really no truth to it. The forces acting on the rim are the combined forces of all 32 spokes, or whatever the spoke count is. The rim is being pulled towards the hub at all the spoke holes, and that means the rim's joint is being pulled together, regardless of the direction of the spokes at each side of the joint. So you should only consider the trade-offs between weight and strength when deciding on spoke count.

[Laing Conley]

I first started building my own wheels in the seventies, I think I bought a book from Bike Warehouse (now Bike Nashbar), so that makes sense. My big problem today is figuring out asymmetrical drum brake hubs on English roadster style rims (Flying Pigeon) that seem to require different cross patterns on the different sides of the wheel. Not to mention being 28 spoke front, 40 spoke rear. 

Laing Conley 

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[John Dewey]

Great stuff, this. I don’t deny my curmudgeonly ways, but I miss those times now mostly long gone. I suppose the art / act of wheel building is ancient history these days and that’s too bad. 

Just a couple of weeks ago, I had to rebuild a rear thanks to mysterious ding in sidewall. How it got there who the hell knows, but it was impossible to straighten to perfection. And fortunately I’m obsessive enough to have little stash of Mavic Open Pro for just such thankfully rare occasions. 

So I resurrected the old ‘tape together’ rim trick and transferred spokes to the new hoop. Tho it’s been a while, I was astonished by how quickly and easily I was able to complete the work. 

How satisfying it is! I encourage all to give it a go of you haven’t already. 

And God Bless Jobst for his beautiful little book  

Jock

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