50.4 crankset opinions: VeloOrange, SUNXCD, Grand Bois

[Will Horton]

Looking at a fancy crankset to put on my Sam.

What are folks opinions of these models that are currently available for purchase?

Velo Orange vs Grand Cru, vs SUNXCD vs Rene Herse Grand Bois

If you could choose between these, which would you go with? Cost is definitely a factor obviously but its also an investment and I am looking for what works best without being overkill. Which is the best made and has the best finish, whose rings perform best? Best bang for the buck?

Bonus points: for the SUNXCD Clover leaf vs standard 6 arm TA rings

[Will Horton]

oops, its only 3x cranks not 4x like it suggests above. Should be:

Velo Orange Grand Cru, vs SUNXCD vs Rene Herse Grand Bois

[David Person]

I went with the Rene Herse cranks when I built up my Sam due to the large selection of chainring sized (I went with 44/28).  The Sun XCD cranks weren't around at the time, though I do run a XCD rear derailleur.  The 7075 chainrings (VO and RH) may be a harder alloy than the 6066 on the XCD.

[Peter Adler]

Large selection of chainring sizes? C'est très humoristique!

Specialites TA (still in business; still producing 50.4mm cyclotouriste chainrings in France, now in 7075 aluminum) make outers (attaches to crankarm) in all even increments from 40-52T, and inners (attaches to outers) from 26-42T.

If you wade into the used market, outers up to 56T are common; outers up to 64 are findable. Plus, odd increments are out there; I have 45T/47T/49T/51T outers, and I'm about to put a 29T granny on a triple. They are of a softer alloy though, if that's important.

The biggest advantage of 50.4 five-pin TA chainrings is that they'll fit on almost any cottered or cotterless five-pin crankset made in the last 80 years (TA, Stronglight, Nervar, Sugino, SunXCD, Magistroni to name but a few), except the ever-quixotic 50mm Zeus Competition. RH chainrings fit on RH cranks, and nothing else.

Peter Adler

who really isn't looking for competition in the 50.4 search, but honest disclosure demands in

Berkeley, CA/USA

[Peter Adler]

Forgot those links:

https://specialites-ta.com/pro-5-vis/196-693-pro-5-vis-plateau-specialites-ta-pro-5-vis-exterieur-80mm-8v-specialites-ta-pl50080302.html#/21,denture,40-dts

https://specialites-ta.com/pro-5-vis/197-707-pro-5-vis-plateau-specialites-ta-pro-5-vis-interieur-intermediaire-80mm-8v-specialites-ta-pl50080102.html#/9,denture,26-dts

I believe Velo Classique in Virginia is the US distributor for Specialites TA. Obviously, there are also UK/European retailers that ship to the US.

The one key drawback to 5-pin TA chainrings is that the rings aren't ramped/pinned; you're effectively capped at an 8-speed rear. But really, do you need more than 3x8 gears?

Peter Adler

specializing in beating dead horses in

Berkeley, CA/USA

[Patrick Moore]

Peter: Thanks for posting this; good to know that TA is still making 50.4 bcd rings. I have a minor stash of old Pro 5 Vis arms and, while I'd eagerly trade one for a RH crank with rings of my liking, I do find them almost perfect for my wants (well, would happily replace the hardware with some from VO).

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Peter Adler]

The key things to remember with 50.4 hardware are that the bolts are fragile, and the wavy lockwashers are worthless. Be gentle with the hex spanner, and generous with the blue Loctite. VO's hardware is definitely more rugged (as I'm confident TA's current hardware is as well - the complication with TA is that their manufacture of cyclotouriste rings and 50.4 fasteners is sporadic), and they don't even bother with lockwashers; they just recommend Loctite as a replacement.

On that larger subject: I have to switch out a TA granny ring this weekend. I managed to break the 26T pre-7075 TA granny on the 26/46/50 half-step setup I ride every day. I kept hearing a "tink tink tink" sound, one "tink" per pedal rotation, for two solid months before I figured out the source of the noise, as I tightened everything else I could think of down. It was only when I replaced an NDS Crank Brothers pedal with a broken spring that I looked at the crank from the inside and saw the broken chainring; it had broken between two of the six attaching screws, and the short piece kept swinging down from the bolt that still held it to hit the spindle as it rotated.

I suppose that doesn't say much for the soft old duralumin alloy that TA (and a lot of other French bike manufacturers) used BITD. But the thing that drives me crazy is, how do you break a granny ring that you only shift into three times a year?

Peter "flatland/waterfront rider" Adler

Berkeley-by-the-Bay, CA/USA

[Peter White]

On Fri, Jun 4, 2021 at 11:43 PM Peter Adler <divis...@gmail.com> wrote:

I believe Velo Classique in Virginia is the US distributor for Specialites TA.

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We've been importing Specialites TA products for the past 5 years, and distributing their products to bike shops all over the US and Canada. We stock all of the Pro 5 Vis chainrings as well as the hardware. We don't stock the Pro 5 Vis cranks. However, all cranks lengths from 155mm to 185mm can be ordered as TA keeps them in stock. They no longer offer the 150mm crank length.

Peter White

[Bill Schairer]

I've been running 3x9 with a TA crank and a Stronglight for years without any issues.  I also ran 3x10 for a while.  Currently have 47/44/26 TA and 50/45/26 Stronglight (with TA rings) and they both shift quite well with no ramps and pins.  What are those for?  I think the Stronglight arms had  a better finish than the TA's but I think they are harder to come by.

One and only one supplier and no odd tooth count rings are my biggest issues with Rene Herse.  I could probably get over the single supplier and cost if they offered odd tooth count.

Bill S

San Diego

[J L]

Just a point of clarity here:

Rene Herse and Grand Bois are two distinct companies (RH did sell Grand Bois products in the past) 

Grand Bois sell SUNXCD cranks and compatible rings. 

On Jun 4, 2021, at 4:13 PM, 'Will Horton' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[Patrick Moore]

Very good to know. 

[Peter Adler]

Aside from 39T inners on 130/135 BCD cranks, does any manufacturer offer odd toothcount chainrings as a regular stock item these days?

Peter Adler

Berkeley, CA/USA

[Nick Payne]

My favourite of the 50.4 cranks are the Sugino PX. I have three of them on different bikes and my wife also uses a pair on one of her bikes. It's a pity that they're no longer made, and that Sugino apparently no longer have the forging dies for that crank:

Someone in Japan is presently trying to sell an NOS pair of these crankarms on fleabay for $AU700.

Nick

[Peter White]

On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 11:03 PM Peter Adler <divis...@gmail.com> wrote:

Aside from 39T inners on 130/135 BCD cranks, does any manufacturer offer odd toothcount chainrings as a regular stock item these days?

Peter Adler

Berkeley, CA/USA

I have them from TA and Stronglight, though not for every bolt circle, and not for every possible tooth count. Mostly for 110 and 130 bolt circles.

Back "in the day" when all we had were 5 and 6 speed freewheels, half-step gearing made a lot of sense. And to get it working well, you often needed either a 3 or 4 tooth difference between the outer and middle-inner chainring. But with 8, 9, 10 or 11 cogs out back, the need for so many chainring options is greatly reduced. So once 35 or 37 or 41 tooth chainring sales drop into the single digits every year, it makes little sense to make them.

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Peter White

[Patrick Moore]

15 years ago or so when I regularly commuted across town by bike, and before I went full-fixed-gear, I used a very nice pseudo half-step system with either 48/45 or 47/44 Sugino chainrings and a (IIRC) 13-32 7 speed cassette, for a downhill gear, a bailout gear, and nice close ratios in the middle; in particular, a central cog giving me ~70" and 65" cruising gears in which I did most of my riding. I shifted these with old Campy Record shifters mounted to Kelly Take-Offs, so most of the commute was simply flipping the left lever up and down. Very nice system.

On Sun, Jun 6, 2021 at 6:20 AM Peter White <peter...@gmail.com> wrote:

... Back "in the day" when all we had were 5 and 6 speed freewheels, half-step gearing made a lot of sense. And to get it working well, you often needed either a 3 or 4 tooth difference between the outer and middle-inner chainring. 

[lconley]

I have the Rene Herse 42/26 (ramped and pinned) on my Rivendell Custom (11 speed), the VO with VO single chainring on the Betty Foy (9 speed) and Sun XCD with VO single chainring on my Mystery Bike/Protovelo/Protopaloosa (single speed). The finish on the Rene Herse and the Sun XCD are fantastic, nothing really wrong with the VO, but not up to the standard of the other two. 

I love the look of the classic 6 arm TA/stronglight/VO/Sun XCD style chainrings on the VO/Sun XCD, and you can get them in the widest variety of sizes from Peter White.

The Rene Herse has its own unique classic look.

You may also want to consider White Industries crankset - up in the Rene Herse price category

Best bang for the buck is an Andel. Andel makes look-alikes for the Rene Herse, classic Campagnolo Nuovo Record and many others - biggest selection of styles of any crank maker that I know of. Andel makes the IRD cranks, GB cranks for Pashley, Holdsworth cranks, and many others. I have a Andel/Holdsworth single track crank with Zeus chainring on my VO Neutrino (single speed), and had a Andel/IRD 46/30 on my Roadinin (11 speed). Very high quality - at least to that of the VO, maybe better.

Another of my favorite cranks is the VO drillium, although probably not available..

Laing

Delray Beach FL

[Jim Bronson]

Yes,  I'm currently running chainrings without ramps and pins with a 10 speed cassette and indexed shifting in the back.   No issues, or at least, nothing that's an issue for me. 

I don't have the 50.4BCD setup (and would not be interested in acquiring it as my body requires high Q) as per the topic of this thread,  but just as a side response to the reply of,  "you can't use regular chainrings with more than 8 speed.  I have an older a 135BCD Shimano triple that I use with a bashguard in place of the big ring.  It was shiny silver at one point but after years of hard use,  decidedly less so.   But anyway...

It doesn't shift as snappy up front as an indexed setup with brifters and ramps and pins and all that, but I don't really care.  I'm using bar ends as a proper drop bar equipped Rivendell should.   And I'm not in that much of a hurry.

Using 44/28 in front and 11-32 in the back,  I find that the need to drop down to the lower range up front is fairly infrequent anyway.  Usually only used on brevets where the ride organizer sends the route up some nutty 15-20% grade to test our mettle, I guess. 

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[Will Horton]

Thanks everyone for all the feedback. Really hard decision overall. I ended up ordering the SUNXCD cranks in 172.5 and 46/30 from veloduo. I really wanted 44/30 or 44/28 but that range was out of stock. I almost went for the cloverleaf chainring version as they had the gear range I wanted but I really prefer the 6 arm style I think.

[Harry Travis]

Has anyone else found differences in Q and chainline among the 50.4 cranksets? 

I swapped in a Sugino PX with shorter crank arms in for a V-O, and found less clearance to the chainstays on both sides- at least 2mm per side. 

I prefer the look of the rare Sugino, and sorted front derailleur issues required by the swap. A bit fussy to set up with 46-30 and similar chainring doubles, as no front ders were made for it. 

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Harry P Travis

Portland, OR USA

14.6

On Jun 7, 2021, at 10:38 AM, 'Will Horton' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Thanks everyone for all the feedback. Really hard decision overall. I ended up ordering the SUNXCD cranks in 172.5 and 46/30 from veloduo. I really wanted 44/30 or 44/28 but that range was out of stock. I almost went for the cloverleaf chainring version as they had the gear range I wanted but I really prefer the 6 arm style I think.

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