Friction Shifting Dyna-sys

[Clayton.sf]

Hi All,

 

Thought some of you would be interested that despite the fact that internet says you can’t mix shimano Dyna-sys rear derailers with anything but Dyna-sys shifters I am successfully running them with shimano ultegra 8 speed bar ends in friction mode. The shifting not only works it works amazingly well. The longer cable pull allows for finer trimming and a greater “sweet spot”. Shifting is crisp and direct which I think is the result of not having that floating pulley. I am running it with and 8 speed cassette, 8 speed chain, and a triple front. Hope this information is helpful. And yes, I can shift across the entire cassette.

 

Thanks,

Clayton Scott

[Steve Palincsar]

On 07/02/2015 12:58 PM, Clayton.sf wrote:

Thought some of you would be interested that despite the fact that internet says you can’t mix shimano Dyna-sys rear derailers with anything but Dyna-sys shifters I am successfully running them with shimano ultegra 8 speed bar ends in friction mode

Actually, "the internet" says you can't index shift Dyna-sys rear mechs with anything but Dyna-sys shifters, because the Dyna-sys rear mech's cable pull requirement is different from the road derailleurs, and the indexed bar end shifters and road STI brifters pull matches road and non-Dyna-sys rear derailleurs.   When you're friction shifting, it isn't the placement of detents that determines when you've shifted enough, it's operator wetware that does the job.  So as long as the friction shifter pulls enough cable to get the rear derailleur to travel through its full range and as long as operator wetware is sufficiently sensitive to detect when you've moved the rear mech enough to accurately complete the shift, you're good to go.

[Clayton.sf]

Most sources claim there is not enough cable pull in non-dyna-sys levers to shift across the whole cassette.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 07/02/2015 04:50 PM, Clayton.sf wrote:
> Most sources claim there is not enough cable pull in non-dyna-sys levers to shift across the whole cassette.
>

You obviously are basing that on real-world experience. What are those
sources basing the claims on? AFAIK there's nothing unusual or special
about the range of an 8 speed bar end shifter. Perhaps those sources
never tried?

[Clayton.sf]

Here a source: http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/friction-shifting-a-dynasys-rear-mech

Just search and you will find more

[Clayton.sf]

Another nice thing is that it opens up clutch detailer to friction shifting. Very nice for trail riding

[Tim Gavin]

This is an interesting discovery.  I agree that clutch derailers are nice to reduce chain slap.  

I'll have to give it a try next time I pick up a 10s Shimano MTB RD.  My attempt will be friction shifting 9 speeds with a 9 speed bar-end.  

Tim

[Garth]

I read all the replies there ..... and it's based only on mathematical theory , no one actually tested it real world with any friction shifters. 

While I myself find shifting perfect on standard derailers with it's 2:1 cable ratio , the friction shifters I use, Sun Tour thumbies , have very a generous range .  

As with all things derailers and shifters . . . . there's spec, which is limited to the paper it is written on , and there's the real world application of it to which limits can and do vary .  Sometimes night and day differences !  And results will vary from bike to bike . 

[Clayton.sf]

I was really surprised myself which is why I am posting it here. Have had several mechanics tell me it won't work too.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 07/02/2015 05:34 PM, Garth wrote:
> I read all the replies there ..... and it's based only on mathematical
> theory , no one actually tested it real world with any friction shifters.

Except Clayton! And for him, it works.

I do seem to remember reading that someone proved mathematically that a
bumblebee could not fly...

[Steve Palincsar]

On 07/02/2015 05:38 PM, Clayton.sf wrote:
> I was really surprised myself which is why I am posting it here. Have
> had several mechanics tell me it won't work too.

And there were a bunch of mechanics who said it was impossible to use
one of those 11-36 cassettes on a road bike, too. And it was, right up
until surprise, it wasn't. I have a bunch of friends who have them.
(Of course, you do have to use the right rear derailleur, but it works
just fine.)

Actually, some years ago now, I had a shop owner tell me it would be
"professionally irresponsible" for a bike shop to consider installing a
wide range MTB cassette (back then, I think 12-32 or possibly 11-34) on
a road bike, that it would be the equivalent of malpractice, and that he
would fire any employee of his who even entertained the notion.

[Clayton.sf]

To quote sheldon: 

• Shimano "Dyna-Sys" 10-speed shifters and derailers use a longer cable pull than other Shimano models, and must be used together.

And from Riv: "FLASH! SRAM's 9, 10, 11sp mountain, Sram 10 and 11sp road; Shimano mountain 10sp dynasys, Shimano 11sp road (Shimano 10sp Road will sorta work but it's hard to dial in the right gear since the cogs are so close); Campy 10/11sp rear derailers don't seem to work with this shifter. "

the Riv thing refers to their silver shifter, but they actuall do work as well - at least for me ;-).

[Tom Harrop]

So, ah, what's the benefit of a dyna-sys RD for a mountain bike? I'm not being sarcastic, I googled it but couldn't really understand through all the marketing...

Does dyna-sys equal clutch derailer? Is the idea to get better chain tension on bumpy bits? Could you just put a clutch derailer on a friction-shifted 8sp cassette or do you need other special bits?

Thanks

Tom

[Steve Palincsar]

On 07/02/2015 05:55 PM, Clayton.sf wrote:

To quote sheldon: 

• Shimano "Dyna-Sys" 10-speed shifters and derailers use a longer cable pull than other Shimano models, and must be used together.

And from Riv: "FLASH! SRAM's 9, 10, 11sp mountain, Sram 10 and 11sp road; Shimano mountain 10sp dynasys, Shimano 11sp road (Shimano 10sp Road will sorta work but it's hard to dial in the right gear since the cogs are so close); Campy 10/11sp rear derailers don't seem to work with this shifter. "

the Riv thing refers to their silver shifter, but they actuall do work as well - at least for me ;-).

I think it probably takes exceptional skill to friction shift 10.   If you've got it, flaunt it.

Next up, 11!

[Clayton.sf]

Most new shimano rear ders are now dynasys. Some of them come with the clutch others don't. You nothing else to use the clutch. It is compatible with a normal cassette. It does increase chain tension. Great for 1x drivtrains but also nice to reduce chains lap in general.

[Clayton.sf]

Dynasys is only for mtb. Just to clarify.

[iamkeith]

Darn it.  I wish you'd posted this about a week ago.  I just purchased some components for a Dynashift setup on my new mountain bike.   As you mention, the clutch derailleur was the main thing I wanted to gain, but the 40 tooth rear cog is pretty appealing, too.  Mostly though, I'm just sort of getting tired of putting so much effort into sourcing discontinued parts, mixing and matching brands and series, and otherwise generally hacking the system.  This will be the first time in as long as long as I can remember that I went all-modern.   (Though I guess 10 speed is no longer "state-of-the-art," with the advent of 11 speed.).  For mid to mid-high level components, like XT, its also starting to seem like its cheaper to just get whatever is current.

Just out of principal though, I did spring for some dynasys-specific Microshift thumbies with a friction mode, and a Whipperman chain with a real master-link.

Regarding internet rumors and mechanics' claims about the feasibility of what you achieved, Clayton:   I too have read many times that it would not be impossible,  but the main reason was the notion that the tension on the derailleur is so much higher that it would overpower the older shifter.  Interesting that this isn't an issue.  Also interesting that the 8 speed chain fits ok within the narrower 10 speed pulley cage!

Thanks for posting this!

[iamkeith]

Sorry - that's "I too have read that it would not be POSSIBLE."

[Tom Harrop]

Hi all,

Just necro'ing this thread (also partly in light of the derailer discussion in another thread) to say that I recently switched to a Dyna-sys mech on my Bomba MTB as a result of this discussion. I'm shifting an 8sp cassette with Silver friction shifters. The specific model I bought is the XT RD-M786-GS.

The difference is amazing. It has solved a big issue I was having with ghost shifting, which I thought was just a fact of life riding a large (64 cm) steel frame offroad because of flex in the BB area. Can't tell you if it is the clutch, higher chain tension or lack of pulley float but the problem is gone.

Oh, and there's absolutely no problem with lever range (Silver on Paul thumbies).

Great tip, thanks!

Tom

[Daniel Jackson]

SO how about a 1 x 10 with dynasys rear mech and friction dura ace 9 speed bar end? 

[Tim Gavin]

Well, the 10 speed cassette is only a few mm wider than the 8 speed that Tom uses successfully, so it might work.  

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[Frederic Laforest]

indeed  i just succesfully mix an old shimano 105 8s sis/friction ( in friction mode ) with a  10 speed  shimano cassette  but with a mega 9 xt rd-771 sgs  , now  my plan is to test the zee derailleur rd m640 (from my other bike) with these shifter in friction mode 

[Jon BALER]

I have a shimano 9 speed bar end shifter (in friction mode) with 10 speed dynasis rear der.  I had to dremel the shifter mount to allow for more lever travel/rotation to get enough cable pull.

On another bike, I have a IRD Silver SOS power ratchet with 10 speed dynasis rear der.   With the standard (e.g. flat bar) mounts, the shifters had enough cable travel to shift the entire cassette.  When I converted them to bar end shifters using Riv mounts, I no longer have enough travel to reach 1 cog on the cassette.  I either have to dremel the mounts, or continue to live with not reaching one cog.

Thanks for the info on the 8 speed shifter working.  Sounds like that may also be a good solution for me.

[Tim Gavin]

FYI, the 10-speed (black) Shimano pods allow for more lever travel.  

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[lconley]

You can install some housing inner liner on the part of cable that wraps around the shifter - effectively increasing the diameter of the shifter. You can hold the liner in place with shrink wrap beyond where the shifter wraps the cable. It was on the Blug or Blahg a month or so ago. I don't know if you can use a couple of layers of shrink wrap directly and skip the liner. I doubt the shrink wrap would hold up long term rubbing on the shifter.

Laing

Cocoa FL

[Pancake]

I'm looking at using friction shifters (Sunrace thumbies upside down) on my 9-speed cassette with a clutched derailleur from: (a) Shimano 10 speed (e.g., M786) or (b) Microshift Advent ... could you give me some more info about the Blahg or Blug that mentioned this method for adjusting the shifter diameter to adjust cable pull? Or am I reading that wrong and it wouldn't affect cable pull distance?

Abe

[Pancake]

Ooops, found it (a bit earlier than was remembered, in January 2018) in the Blug (was looking in the Blahg): https://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/168471849114/eleven-schmleleven-more-is-worse-moore-is

Fun trick for those getting the Silver2 shifters potentially, but only an idea for someone looking to adjust cable pull proportions on a Sunrace thumbie shifter.

Abe