Grant is asking us to not run baskets on Nitto Racks

[Bill Lindsay]

Apparently enough crazies are overloading their Wald baskets on Nitto racks, breaking them and suing over it that now Nitto is saying "no baskets".  Rivendell cares what Nitto says, and so Grant posted on the Blahg that we shouldn't run baskets.  There have been other vendors claiming Nitto Racks carry a lot more weight than Nitto themselves claim.  Some gullible people think that means that racks from other vendors are 'stronger' than the ones you buy from Rivendell.  The fact is, a failed front rack is a big problem, and conservative recommendations are intended to protect your head, even if that discourages you from buying something:

GRANTS BLAHG

Be careful out there.  Use your Manny strap. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Joe Bernard]

There's also way too many crazies buying a cheaper Nitto rack Riv doesn't sell, then dropping a basket on it and tossing a 12-pack in there cuz gnarly bro. Don't be crazies.

[Ginz]

Save weight with cans and keep it down to a sixer.

[Patrick Moore]

There's always Tubus ...

Patrick Moore, overloading Tubus Flys since 1996. (But not using baskets.)

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[Adam Leibow]

i wonder just how catastrophic or dangerous these rack failures are for the rider. if you think about it, a rack falling into the spinning front wheel would be shot forward with the rotation of the tire. i'm not saying i'd want this to happen but i can't picture a strut breaking causing the rack to fall and put so much downforce on the front wheel as to cause it to stop and buck a rider OTB. also, if using a mark's rack with 4 struts, the diving board, AND the manny strap, one or even two strut's worth of failure might not even be that costly or catastrophic (if all you have to replace are broken struts and, at worst, a tire). this being said i look forward to their answer to this problem. the way i read the post, mostly it's the M12 that's the culprit. 

this all being said, i've loaded up my mark's rack and 32F with dangerous amounts of weight many times, and luckily i haven't had a problem. maybe i'm a good candidate for a basket-specific rack. 

adam

[Leslie]

Yeah, I use a Tubus rear rack on the front of my Bomba as my Wald carrier (well, there's a Platrack between the two, to keep the basket more stiff... my intent was leave the basket/platrack as a combo, to come on and off the rack as needed, but, have gotten to where I usually just leave it anymore...)

[Collin A]

I've had a heavily loaded, but not overloaded, front rack fail on me once, albeit not a Nitto and it was partially mounted to the eyelets at the fork. It basically pivoted around the hub and caught the front wheel on the downswing, jammed the wheel, and almost sent me over the handlebars (luckily I was going relatively slow). The bolts (I theorize) got loosened over time and after countless hours rough descents. 

Lesson: Check those rack bolts often and have a backup in the form of the manny strap (at least until Riv solves all of our basketed-rack-woes)

[Ron Mc]

The problem with rating racks is their static load tolerance can look humongous (while their proper rating looks silly small), but in the dynamic situation of a bouncing bicycle, the weight of that load becomes 10 times its mass.  

[Joe Bernard]

Remind me why we're piling cargo on top of a rolling wheel that's also steering?

[Ryan M.]

Yeah, I'm not really sure on that. It's certainly "the thing to do" nowadays though. 

[Patrick Moore]

Also, we, or at least I, don't know the conditions under which the Nitto racks in question failed. Me, I have carried quite heavy loads (for such light racks) but for no more than 10 or 15 miles 1-way, and generally half that or even less; and all this on paved roads.

Still, I do wonder at the low official Nitto load limits.

An ex-frame builder told me he built a minmalist 8 oz chromo rack, chromed, for his wife that was (his statement, and he's not used to making extravagant statements) strong enough to carry him, at 200+. He didn't mention a basket, though.

On Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 7:45 PM, Ron Mc <bulld...@gmail.com> wrote:

The problem with rating racks is their static load tolerance can look humongous (while their proper rating looks silly small), but in the dynamic situation of a bouncing bicycle, the weight of that load becomes 10 times its mass.  

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[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 6:20:52 PM UTC-7, Collin A wrote:

Lesson: Check those rack bolts often and have a backup in the form of the manny strap (at least until Riv solves all of our basketed-rack-woes)

For critical applications, one may want to consider using Nord-lock washers to mitigate bolt loosening. These are better than "blue" Loctite, especially as Loctite's effectiveness depends on proper prep procedure (i.e., parts must be clean and dry) that not too many of us follow.

[Collin A]

Ron, the static weight of the load is always 10 times its mass (when working in SI, otherwise its 32.2 times the mass in slugs). The dynamic weight of your load is whatever your 12-pack of beer (about 4.5 Kg) is accelerating at (relative to gravity) just as it hits the basket again; Therefore, the total loading is that static load plus the dynamic load. A good load rating takes into account an assumed maximum dynamic load along with a static load and then factors it down to account for defects or other unknowns.

I know Tubus (as an example) rates their load for masses in Kg and us 'mericans usually rate our racks in lb-force (or at last I hope so because nobody measures stuff in lb-mass, i.e. slugs!), so you'll need to convert to compare apples-to-apples and this can lead to the lower rating that nitto/Riv provides. Their 4.4 lbf max is about 2 Kg, or about 2 liters of beer (just under a 6-pack), which seems reasonable given the size and how the struts connect to the fork. The static capacity is likely HUGE in comparison and I'd imagine lots of folks could sit on it while the bike isn't bouncing down a hill (that is NOT an invitation to try it...)

Patrick, I'm speculating that typically the connections (welds, bolts, brazes, etc) fail rather than the steel members failing by shear or buckling, unless nitto uses super thin walled steel/aluminum. So as long as the connections are burly enough (huge/a lot of bolts, or multiple weld beads), the rack is made from a single piece of tubing (to minimize the number of welds/connections you would make), and mounted as close to the fork as possible (I'll cover moments in another post), the rack should handle large static loads without excessive distress. 

Benz, I have since learned that lesson, I'm all about those nord-locks now :)

Sorry for the lecture,

Collin A

[Patrick Moore]

The no longer made Tubus Fly was rated at 22 kg, iirc, or 44 lb. Perhaps it was 20 kg. It weighed 11 oz and attached with single, clamped-on strut at the rear caliper mounting bolt. Pretty clear weight of rack to weight of load limit ratio. I used them for 20 years, almost, on many bikes, as described. I know that Tubus is a make of choice for dedicated loaded tourers, but I can't speak of failure rates. I just never had one fail, nor heard of anyone else having one fail.

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[Patrick Moore]

The mfr's load limit for the Fly was indeed 20 kg, or 44 lb -- 2.2 lb to the kg; I was confused. I did max it out once or twice.

Not nearly as pretty as one of the Nittos though.

Presently using Chauncey Matthews customs; probably less strong than the Tubuses but again, no breakage yet.

[Lum Gim Fong]

I would love to see RBW make a “decailer” (MUSA spelling there, or “D-kaler”) that would hold the rack up even in the event of a fork crown attachment failure. Keep it stem bolt mounted and a tight pin fit like the “Nitto for Pearl stem” decailers have, but then RBW could get the guys at NITTO to add a welded on bar from the U-shaped pin holder that snaps onto the rack’s backstop so even if the FC attachment bolt failed, the decailer would block it from moving forward. And yes, you could load up and carry as much kale as you wanted on your Wald basquetted rack and D-kaler.

[Collin A]

I agree, Patrick, definitely not as pretty as the Nitto. Part of the high load rating for the Tubus (and most rear racks for that matter) is that most of the load is transferred vertically to the eyelet bolts near the hub rather than the clamped on strut at the top. The Nitto front (or any rando-style rack) has to transfer almost all of its load horizontally to the connection points and thus the load is amplified by that distance from the connection, yielding a lower maximum load.

2.2 lb-force per Kg, small but important note :)

I wish we all just used SI...

[Collin A]

Lum, I believe Compass cycles makes what you are describing:

https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/components/stems-decaleurs/compass-decaleur/

[Lum Gim Fong]

I have one from them for pearl stems.
But i am talking about a bar that comes from stem to backstop to block the rack from moving forward.

A regular decaleur could do this, utilizing the bag as the blocker of the backstop (since top o bag is held to stem by decaler) unless the backstop is able to push the bottom of the bag out of the way.

[Lum Gim Fong]

PS- that Compass one only keeps the pins from jumping out if you hit a big bump.

[Ron Mc]

you should be

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 10:11:40 PM UTC-5, Collin A wrote:...

[jandrews]

What's the best method for rigging up a an Irish strap as a semi-permanent support between mini-front and bar or mini-front and head tube that doesn't affect steering or get in the way?

[Wally Estrella]

I run a JIS thru the tomb stone hoop then wrap it around the bars on each side of the stem. 

[masmojo]

Well, kinda what concerns me is that, if they've had issues with it where does that leave Wald? Most people run racks to support their baskets, because the Wald struts are not up to the task. (Although typically the Wald attaches to the handlebar as well) Still, failure or bending the strut could cause the basket to drop onto the wheel.
As some have alluded, there's a difference between 20lbs on a fairly smooth surface and heavy duty offroad. Most of those offroad Tour guys don't use much in the way of racks at all.

[Ryan M.]

Something like the Nitto big rack or Surly front rack will handle a loaded basket no problem, but the problem I see is that people are sticking that kind of load on a small rando rack and then "bikecamping" in some rugged stuff and the racks have got to eventually fail. They aren't that strong and only have three mounting points.

I would think something like the Nitto R14 Top Rack would be a really good basket rack too.

- Ryan, who doesn't really get the huge front loading bias that is going on now.

On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 10:56:35 AM UTC-5, masmojo wrote:

[Philip Williamson]

Huh. I have had a basket on that exact rack, and broke the rack at the center-hole bolt. Took ~14 years and a heavy-handed stranger to break it. Now my basket is welded on, so I can't really take it off. 

When I do bring home a 12 pack, the way is pretty slow and pretty paved. 

Do decaleurs really support most of the weight of a rando bag? I don't believe that, but I've never owned one (since I have an awesome basket). 

Philip

Santa Rosa, Ca

[Drw]

What about if you run a long strut to the dropout? I do that assuming it helps, but maybe I’m wrong.

Also, the basket rack in development sounds cool.

[lconley]

This was my solution:

Laing

Cocoa, FL

On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 12:30:34 PM UTC-4, Drw wrote:

[Collin A]

Yeah, something to move the load transfer point closer to the center of the load would help in that, but then you limit your ability run hub area or low rider racks (depending on the configuration of said racks). Nitto's big front rack, Surly's front, or the pricier Pass&Stow rack all fit the bill and can handle larger loads than the rando-style racks. Even moving the struts that are on the furthest edge to the center of the rack could help in increasing the operating capacity (see Nitto R-14)

Front loading is nice, but I am still in the boat of putting heavier loads on the rear rack where it has less of an affect on handling and a lower consequence of failure.

[Jeremy Till]

I've become a front-rack-and-basket devotee over the past couple of years, and the Medium Shop Sack has become my go-to commuting bag; it's definitely the most convenient setup I've used.  My daily commuting load is pretty light, but occasionally I'll stop for groceries or beer on the way home, and I'm probably well past the stated limits then.  In that case, the ride home is generally short and paved.  If I'm using the basket on a longer ride or off-road, I try to keep the load light: extra clothes, generally.  

[masmojo]

I agree that a rack with a strut to the hub area would help immensely, but I've recently changed the rack on my new Polyvalent to the SOMA Demi Porteur and I can say that removing the hub area strut, smooths the ride out drastically. You can have the swoopiest, gracefully curved fork soaking up the Bumps, but a simple rack strut can seriously take the fun out of the party. ;-(

[Vincent Tamer]

I have the Nitto m18 on my Clem and it works just fine. There have been only a few occasions that I’ve overloaded it but that was on smooth surface riding so no biggie. That being said I’m going to be a bit more weight conscious of my basket loads from now on.

I wonder if the Riv staff will be removing their baskets in order to set a good example? I can see that being a burden as many of us are quite dependent on the basket setup.

[Drw]

I have a pass and stow rack with a basket and a swift basket bag that has all my regular stuff in it always (pump/tools/u-lock/jacket/etc.). Randomly, i rode without the bag for the first time in like a year yesterday and was kind of blown away by how much nicer the bike feels without that weight up there for regular riding. 

[RichS]

Jeremy, my rack/basket/Shop Sack use mirrors yours to a T. It's such a perfect setup for most of my rides. 

If I recall, the Mark's Rack is rated by Nitto for a capacity of five pounds. The heavy stuff goes in the rear bag.

Best,

Rich in ATL  

[Lum Gim Fong]

My limit on my VO Rando rack is filling up my GBerthoud GB25 bag. I don’t add more than thst as I was told that the VO rando is ok up to maybe 15lbs iirc. BTW Those Bertie bags are heavy even empty.
My GB 25 is with Nitto for Pearl stems decaleur bar attachment on bag, no stiffner- 604g Hea-vy!!!

[John Bokman]

I have been really enjoying the convenience of loading my front rack (Nitto 32-f) with a grocery bag full of goods in my Ocean Air Docena (Swift) bag for years.  In fact, yesterday, i loaded way more than I should have - at 22 pounds of goods (I weighed it when I got home cause I was curious). I was nervous about the load, even though it rode remarkably well - until I was at a stop and had massive wheel flop.  Still, prudence tells me, as much as a big load in the front bag is convenient, it's not safer than two  panniers on my low-riders (Tubus Tara) on my Sam. I think, all equal, for load stability and safety, if you're  gonna cary big loads, keep them low and off the front wheel - no matter what front rack you have (excepting a Surly Nice Rack or Nitto Big Front Rack, of course, which are both monsters).

[Max S]

Although Grant’s advice is good, there’s a mistake in one claim, and I’m gonna be harsh here. The claim that the decaleur carries most of the weight of a front bag is not supported (!) by evidence. The decaleur helps keep the bag from flipping side-to-side too much.

Look at the various ways in which decaleurs are constructed and secured to the bike, and you’ll see than in many of them, the load should not be very high. Look at the decaleurs available here:

https://www.compasscycle.com/product-category/components/stems-decaleurs/

Anyone with a modicum of physical intuition, let alone engineering skill, would think that those decaleurs are designed to support the majority of the bag weight. They work in concert with the rack — rack supports mostly up-down loads, decaleur supports mostly left-right loads.

Just sayin’.

- Max “trained as an engineer” in A2

[phil k]

Yes, but a lot of that weight is also being held up by the decaleur.

[Reed Kennedy]

That bothered me as well, Max. Many decaleurs, like the one Mitch built for my MAP and the stock Berthoud pictured below, have the forward extension bolted on in a way that will clearly pivot if they encounter much downward force. 

Sure you can tighten them a bunch, but they still won’t hold more than a pound or two before rotating at the bolt even under the best of conditions. 

Even if the decaleur doesn't have built in pivots and without an engineering degree it’s quite plain that this:

Will not hold something up as well as this:

On a traditional rando-style handlebar bag the rack holds the bag up and the decaleur keeps it from moving side to side.

Cheers,

Reed 

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[Justin, Oakland]

I’ve never heard of a company selling a decaleur as a weight supporting device. I’ve only heard and read of them being billed as a stabilizer. VOs initial decaleurs got a lot of flack for breaking at the weld but most of the time it appeared as if they were installed so the decaleur was load bearing instead of stabilizing.

Bad advice being given if that is what is being said.

-J

[John Phillips]

  Instead of running just one strap from the rack tombstone to the handlebars, I always ran a strap from each front corner of my basket to the handlebar / stem junction, and one strap down to the base of the tombstone. Did this with both my Mark's and Nitto 32F racks. I also never overloaded my rack basket combo by more than 2-3 lbs, mostly because I don't really like how the handling changed. Just an empty basket and medium Shopsack alone added up to 2 lbs already.

I couldn't see how just one strap to the tombstone was going to save my bacon if the rack failed on top of a knobby tire.

  The Riv website still mentions ziptie-ing a basket to the Mark's Rack. How comprehensive / serious is this warning not to use baskets? Is it more of a caution (nudge nudge wink wink, we don't use baskets do we?)???

John

[Joe Bernard]

John, the way I read it is "We as a bicycle company are telling you not to run baskets on these racks", with subtext "so if you ignore this advice, don't be stupid about it."

[Jon Dukeman,central Colorado]

If you carry heavy loads …

I have Jandds Extreme front rack on my Cheviot. And Pass and Stowe on my Sam. either one will handle what I will ever carry. The Jandd is half the price of the Pass and Stowe. The Jandd doesn't have the nice welds and finish that the Nitto has but Jandd says you can carry 40 lbs..Comes in unpainted silver or black.

 Pass and Stowe 25Lbs.

Both can carry panniers.

Jandd has a few front racks to choose from.

https://www.jandd.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=FREXT     Pictured on Cheviot

https://www.passandstowracks.com/   https://www.flickr.com/photos/126595234@N07/24563748770/in/album-72157666457304460/

 

[Jon Dukeman,central Colorado]

A couple more photos of Cheviot with Jandd front rack

[R Shannon]

Peace of mind with that rack! Your Cheviot is a beauty.

Regards,

Rich in ATL

On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 2:54 PM, Jon Dukeman,central Colorado <row.n.2...@gmail.com> wrote:

A couple more photos of Cheviot with Jandd front rack

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[Jon Dukeman,central Colorado]

Thank you Rich.
It's as equally fun and comfortable to Ride.
Jon

[Lester Lammers]

I have a SOMA demi Porteur with a medium Wald basket on an Atlantis. Supposedly has a 10kg capacity and comes with a Manny strap.

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 9:05:00 PM UTC-4, Adam Leibow wrote:

i wonder just how catastrophic or dangerous these rack failures are for the rider. if you think about it, a rack falling into the spinning front wheel would be shot forward with the rotation of the tire. i'm not saying i'd want this to happen but i can't picture a strut breaking causing the rack to fall and put so much downforce on the front wheel as to cause it to stop and buck a rider OTB. also, if using a mark's rack with 4 struts, the diving board, AND the manny strap, one or even two strut's worth of failure might not even be that costly or catastrophic (if all you have to replace are broken struts and, at worst, a tire). this being said i look forward to their answer to this problem. the way i read the post, mostly it's the M12 that's the culprit. 

this all being said, i've loaded up my mark's rack and 32F with dangerous amounts of weight many times, and luckily i haven't had a problem. maybe i'm a good candidate for a basket-specific rack. 

adam

[EasyRider]

Bill, you make a good point about Nitto's conservative weight ratings can make it seem like other manufacturers racks, of similar design, are stronger, when in reality they're designed for the same purpose and should probably be treated as equals from safety perspective.

I use a different front rack on each of my bikes the nitto 32f mini, the rawland rando, the vo one that uses canti mounts, and one slightly larger one made by racktime, a sub-brand of Tubus. The racktime one is probably the beefiest but I treat it no differently than the others, and in probably most confident in the nitto.

These racks are meant to carry odds and ends, conveniently. The most I ask of any of mine is to carry a six pack of cans on the way home, not a stack of newspapers or a full camping load. Those are jobs for cetmas, and the sadly discontinued haulin' Colin porteur rack.

Maybe this would be a good time to being back the hobo bag?

[Ash]

This is my typical load on Wald's-Mark's combo (sometimes there will also be a gallon milk jug) .  After reading this blog I've decided to dig up the strap and use it.. just in case.  I had avoided it for aesthetics.

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Just to clarify: this Blahg post is only pertaining to the small Nitto racks Rivendell sells, correct? I ask because I have the Nitto Big Front Rack with the large Wald attached and I think if I was asked to remove it my dog would be in hysterics... I've ridden my Betty Foy and he's ridden his Wald since 2012, and we don't intend to stop now!

[Ginz]

I’d like to see a mini front rack that somehow does not interfere with the fork crown and my brake setup in any way, shape or form.

[Shoji Takahashi]

Hi Leah,

The Blahg post does not pertain to your Nitto Big Front Rack. Nitto Big Front Rack (among others) connects to the drop out and can handle much larger loads than the Nitto Mini, Marks, and other "rando-type" front racks.

Tailwinds,

Shoji

Arlington MA

[Vincent Tamer]

I went to Nitto's Website and found some info on two of their racks:

http://nitto-tokyo.sakura.ne.jp/carrier-E.html

We can see the rack that has caused the uproar, the M12, with the warning. The M18 doesn't have this warning. 

I own the M18, it doesn't seem to different than the ones Riv sells. The M12 is in a class of it's own since it connects to the Vbrake Bosses, so this can definitely be problematic.

I think a safety strap is a good idea for any one of the Nitto Small Platform racks, just in case. I am now definitely going to be minding my front load and using my Med. Saddle Sack as my go to portage from now on.

[Joe Bernard]

Correctamundo, Leah Belle Shamalama Ding Dong, it's about the little racks. Your Big Rack could safely carry another bike 🙂

[Leah Peterson]

Joe, 🤣🤣🤣

Shall I change my screen name? I kind of love that new moniker.

And my dog is totally relieved that his Wald is going to remain in service! (Never mind his peanut butter jar; he brought it with for the photo 🙄)

[Joe Bernard]

The screen name is yours and I love the peanut butter jar. That's so cute! 🤗

[Neil Doran]

I suggest we all continue to put baskets on Nitto racks, load them up, and not be stupid.

[Adam in Indiana]

So is the common mode of failure at the fork crown bolt..? Seems like the canti post mounts are fairly robust.

[John Phillips]

   I have heard of failures of the fork crown bolt or the diving board plate on the Mark's rack, but I would really like to see how much weight, how it was loaded, and what kind of riding led to each failure. I'm not going to ever go close to tempting fate with my loads, but my curiosity is really itching to know what exactly happened in these rack failures.

John

[James Warren]

I genuinely appreciated the lecture, Collin.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 15, 2018, at 4:01 AM, Ron Mc <bulld...@gmail.com> wrote:

you should be

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 10:11:40 PM UTC-5, Collin A wrote:...

Sorry for the lecture,

Collin A

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[iamkeith]

Total speculative brainstorming here:

I installed one of the regular mini racks on my clem earlier this year, using a sheldon nut on the back of the crown so that i could space and elevate a fender mount tab as high as possible, but also so that there was no slop/wiggle between the mounting hole and stud diameters. Interestingly, I had to use a thin washer on the front of the crown because there weren't >quite< enough threads on the top strut of the rack. Otherwise it "looked" like it was tightened all the way in at a glance, but the nut was actually bottoming against the last of the threads. A total dimensional coincidence. I could imagine that stud/strut becoming fatigued if left to move and vibrate, and a rider might never know it was an issue because it wouldn't ever loosen up.

That said, i somehow interpreted that the problem was with the ones that mount to the canti studs.

No matter what, this is an issue of a user's responsibility to exercise good judgement, and it bothers me to no end that there have been lawsuits over it.

[Philip Williamson]

Me too. I’m the only person on this thread to have broken an m12 with a basket. It took 14 years. I will not change my ways. I doubled down, and had the basket welded to the rack. I expect the break the basket/rack never

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

[Clayton]

I was dumb and had to overload my M-12 with a 25 lb. bag of birdfeed. It sagged ever so slightly. I believe that it is made from Hi tensile steel and not Chromo. When I was installing it, I had to do a bit of tweaking to get it to work with my Paul V-brakes and it bent much easier than I was expecting. A real head scratcher... I wonder why Nitto doesn’t make a Chromo version to fend off injuries and lawsuits? I’d pay extra for a chromo version, just for the peace of mind. Just about everyone runs a basket on these racks, so overloading it is a given. Come on Nitto, get with the new ‘bikepacking’ needs!

Clayton
#DirtDanceDesigns

[dougP]

In his Blahg post, Grant mentions they are working with Nitto to develop a basket rack:

"...and are working with them to develop a Basket Rack.  Stay tuned."

dougP

[EasyRider]

I predict HIGH demand for such a rack.

I've used and broken the cheapo Sunlite front rack. Dunno if the design has changed since, but the diving board was very cheap and broke suddenly. It was not overloaded; I think it was actually empty when it failed. It didn't fall forward onto the wheel, bending at the canti mounts, but I imagine 10lbs of cargo would have easily done it.

[Rod Holland]

I've used Jandd Expedition rear racks for years, very happily. I'm eyeing the Extreme front rack for use with an OAC Rambler, a bike built for front loads. I'm heartened to hear your experiences with it.

rod

[Patrick Moore]

Curious: Why not instead make a quality basket with its own sturdy fittings? 3 sizes: small, medium and Wald Newsboy. 

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 11:14 AM, EasyRider <peter...@gmail.com> wrote:

I predict HIGH demand for such a rack.

I've used and broken the cheapo Sunlite front rack. Dunno if the design has changed since, but the diving board was very cheap and broke suddenly. It was not overloaded; I think it was actually empty when it failed. It didn't fall forward onto the wheel, bending at the canti mounts, but I imagine 10lbs of cargo would have easily done it.

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Auditis an me ludit amabilis insania?

[Mark in Beacon]

Patrick asked "Why not built a quality basket?" But then what would good Rivsters do with all their zip ties?

I've run a basket on a rear rack with good results.

[lconley]

Isn't that what the Wald Clem Bosco Basket is?

Laing

Cocoa FL

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 1:43:38 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

[Jon Dukeman]

Rod 

I posted my Cheviot at the beginning of this thread with pics. The Jandd Extreme is pretty stout. THey advertise 40lb limit including the basket.

Jon

"FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS RIDE JUNK "....

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 11:43 AM, Rod Holland <rholla...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've used Jandd Expedition rear racks for years, very happily. I'm eyeing the Extreme front rack for use with an OAC Rambler, a bike built for front loads. I'm heartened to hear your experiences with it.

rod

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[phil k]

Less changing zipties every 3 months means less plastic being used.

[Clayton]

I had a nightmarish vision that the new Basket Rack from Nitto, is going to be a gigantic platform rack with little wire loops welded on the platform for zip ties.

Shudder.

Clayton
DDD

[Craig Montgomery]

The M12 is rated at 5 pounds. I've got one on a vintage HR Morris with an Ostrich bag. Always felt iffy about any weight pounding down on those canti posts so windbreaker, powerbars, sunscreen, multi-tool, iPod. That's it.  Yet, on an M18 rated at 10 pounds, I've carried 15-20 pounds of groceries or S24O camping stuff in a Carradice Nelson Longflap (on my '38 Bates with Sturmey FM). 

BUT (and this is a big but), I circumvented the weight restrictions with a Nitto Lamp Holder. These things are expensive but they sure are handy. Ben's Bike. Unlike a decaleur it can support a goodly load when the straps are snugged up and goodies are distributed properly. With the load held up by lamp holder and supported by the M18, it's so far, about a decade, so good. 

Craig in Tucson

[Tim Gavin]

Yep, I've only used my M12 to hold a Sackville Small Trunksack filled with tube, tools, and accouterments.

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[Wally Estrella]

Came across this on a random WWW search of baskets and racks.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jimg/12060356153/in/photostream/

At least for these ones it was bolt/fork crown snap and not the canti mounts.

[iamkeith]

Good sleuthing! So it's the stud on the top strut that's breaking, but it's specifically doing so on the racks where the lower struts attach to canti posts. (Sorry - don't know my model numbers well enough to refer to them that way.) The stud on the regular mini racks doesn't attach at that same weird angle, so it makes sense that it's stronger.

[iamkeith]

With inevitable variations in canti post-to-fork crown dimensions (let alone dropout-to-canti post dimensions), can't you just imagine people pre-stressing that particular rack by flexing and forcing it to fit?!

[EasyRider]

Yep, I think that might be part of the problem. Nitto knows best so if they say it's because the rack is getting overloaded, ok. But unlike the Marks and 32f mini, the level of the m12 platform is not adjustable unless some part gets bent. (Those other racks have fork brackets or p clamps for adjustability).

That pic makes it looks Iike people might be compromising the m12, or cracking the fork crown bolt on installation: First bolting it to the fork crown and then using the platform for leverage to bend the rack level, or so the canti struts line up. Are they bending it at a weld?

[Linda G]

I like the Velo Orange randonneur racks. The canti model has a diving board type fork crown attachment, unlike the Nitto. I also have the sidepull model, which I bought first, and they have beefed up the rack between the time I bought that one and the canti type. I have a basket on the sidepull model and have carried around 15 pounds on it routinely. I also have a basket on a Nitto R-14 rear rack and carry 15 pound loads on that. Rivendell content: I  bought the R-14 and the baskets from Rivendell.  I do not run a front rack on my one Rivendell frame, a Roadini, since it's not recommended

[Adam in Indiana]

Awesome find, that answers a lot of questions!

[Philip Williamson]

Way easier to bend the canti struts than the mounting bolt, at least on my M14 (which also broke, but after 13 years of any old load). 

Maybe the basket rack is going to be the exact same rack, but with a different/better connection to the mounting bolt. Maybe it'll have a basket tacked right to the rack!

Philip

Santa Rosa, CA  

[Justin, Oakland]

It makes me winded if the compas adjustable disc rack has the same failure mode? Or the Riv mini camper rack? Or the Granary rack? I’m assuming the main reason for the breakage is not weight but the bending that happens to get an m12 to fit in any bike.

-J

[Adam in Indiana]

Which also leads to the question... If you don't have to bend it to fit (the ones I have slip right on to my canti Sam), then would it be mostly okay to have a basket on it as long as you still follow the loading recommendations..?

[Bill Lindsay]

Adam asked if it would be mostly OK if he uses his personal property in a way that he feels comfortable with.  I'd answer with three statements

1. It sounds like your rack probably won't break. 

2. If it does break you probably won't hurt yourself. 

3. If it does break, It will be because you broke it, and you will definitely have to buy another rack. 

If those three statements qualify as "mostly OK", then YES, it will be mostly OK to have a basket on your un-bent Nitto M12. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Adam in Indiana]

Ha, thanks for the answers, Bill, though I wasn't really looking for affirmation; it was just a somewhat rhetorical question meant to keep the conversation going in what I felt was an interesting direction.

[masmojo]

Also, there's Canti bolts & canti bolts, there not all made the same & when mounting a rack I imagine slightly longer/stronger bolt(s) is advised .

[Ash]

Has anybody found a way to mount Surly 8 pack rack on a Riv?

On Tuesday, 14 August 2018 16:16:51 UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:

Apparently enough crazies are overloading their Wald baskets on Nitto racks, breaking them and suing over it that now Nitto is saying "no baskets".  Rivendell cares what Nitto says, and so Grant posted on the Blahg that we shouldn't run baskets.  There have been other vendors claiming Nitto Racks carry a lot more weight than Nitto themselves claim.  Some gullible people think that means that racks from other vendors are 'stronger' than the ones you buy from Rivendell.  The fact is, a failed front rack is a big problem, and conservative recommendations are intended to protect your head, even if that discourages you from buying something:

GRANTS BLAHG

Be careful out there.  Use your Manny strap. 

[iiro koskenniemi]

I've got a mark's rack with a wald basket for way over a year now and have been loading full and over the top many times. more than 8kg for sure.

there are 4 struts though which probably makes all the difference compared to M18 for example.

[lambbo]

Ash,

I had one mounted on my Cheviot - it did not fit well but got me through a couple loaded mini-tours and very heavy material runs. However, I took it off after about a year, because it was just so oddly attached (clamps).

Wouldn't recommend it.

[Mark in Beacon]

On Friday, August 24, 2018 at 11:46:15 AM UTC-4, Ash wrote: Has anybody found a way to mount Surly 8 pack rack on a Riv?

I did it on my Clementine. It took a little creative bending and using a different type of connecting than the rack was designed for, but it was completely rock solid once I figured out the puzzle. I think I did a post about it, or as part of another post, some couple years ago. If you have similar connection points, I would say the chances of any kind of basket/rack failure are very, very, very, low, assuming you install properly and check your bolts regularly, as with any rack system.

Here's a photo. I've also attached it cause I've been having problems making the in-line photos bigger on google forums lately. IIRC, I had to re-orient the struts that connect to the fork crown braze-ons, as they are designed for Surly side-of-the-crown attachment. Also involved a very mild reshaping to get the correct angle for this position. I almost felt it was overkill for just holding a basket. With all the connections points, installation is a bit fiddly, but it worked very well. Again, though, with all the bolts, there is more to loosen. I think I used beeswax, maybe loctite, on the bolts. I carried some good loads on it, including my son's school knapsack, which was way heavier than it should be!

[Ginz]

I like the fact that it avoids the fork crown which I need for a cable stop to avoid break chatter.

[Ash]

Thank you Mark!

My Appaloosa has those fork crown bolts.  Good to get a confirmation that this's doable.

It will also nicely complement a black Wald's basket I have.

Perhaps for models with no crown bolts this is not a good option, as lambbo suggested.

[masmojo]

I have the 8 pk rack on my Clementine as well & it's my favorite setup. Rock solid!

[masmojo]

Mark, Ive gotten rid of bikes for no other reason except they were black, BUT black Clementines look wicked sick!! If I ever got another it would have to be black!
Although, people already ask me where Toto is; does anyone else ever get Wiz of Oz comments?

[James Warren]

I did once. Grey-blue Hillborne with two top tubes and tweed Nigel Smythe loafer on the rear rack. The commenter specifically referenced the bag in back, asking if Toto was in there. Not too jerkish though.

A jerk-toned comment once was, "Do you have a picnic back there?" My answer was, "I don't understand why you wouldn't it."

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[Brad]

My dog rides in my front basket pretty often. Every once in a while, I'll get passed by a car and the passenger will yell out the window "...and your little dog too!"

Brad

Queens

[Ginz]

I've been thinking about this an I'm really intrigued by the Surly 8-Pack rack vs. the Nitto 32F.  The surly doesn't seem to interfere with the fork crown and straddle carrier in any way.  Installation looks as clunky as any of these racks with canti-brakes.

Also curious to see what the Nitto basket rack looks like, but might try to pick up a used Surly 8-Pack if I see one.

[Reed Kennedy]

I appreciate the versatility of the Surly 8-Pack Rack, but the erector-set-style mounting gives me the heebies. Even if it works well and doesn't rattle loose it just looks... bad. 

I'm planning to try the Soma Champs Élysées Mini Front Rack for my new-to-me Hilsen:

https://www.modernbike.com/soma-champs-elysees-front-mini-rack---stainless

But it very much looks to be a rack intended to support a brevet bag (if that) and not much more. Soma doesn't list a weight limit, but I doubt it's basket-worthy.

Best,

Reed Kennedy

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 2:06 PM Ginz <the...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've been thinking about this an I'm really intrigued by the Surly 8-Pack rack vs. the Nitto 32F.  The surly doesn't seem to interfere with the fork crown and straddle carrier in any way.  Installation looks as clunky as any of these racks with canti-brakes.

Also curious to see what the Nitto basket rack looks like, but might try to pick up a used Surly 8-Pack if I see one.

[Bill Lindsay]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I can't currently think of a front rack that is less-attractive to my eye than a Surly 8-pack.  That tells you more subjectively about my eye than it does objectively about the Surly 8-pack rack, but I think it's a pretty gross design, and I'd totally run one on my bike, provided that I was dead set on running a front rack, and I had exhausted every other possible option. 

I don't know for sure, but I have seen at Rivendell Bicycle Works, a rack 'laying around' that looked exactly like a Nitto F27 rack, but was missing the detachable front lowriders and the rack had no attachment points for any detachable front lowriders.  When I asked "what's that?", they said "prototype for something we're thinking about".  So, I'm not a betting man, and I don't know for sure, but If I was a betting man, I'd bet that the "Nitto Basket Rack" from Rivendell would resemble a Nitto 27F, without the detachable lowriders.  I would also bet that it's price would land somewhere in between the Nitto 32F that Rivendell sells for $140, and the Nitto 34F that Rivendell sells for $218. 

I have three bikes that currently run a Wald Basket on a front rack.  All three racks load the front hub at the dropout, and use the up-top connection point as only a rotation-resistor.  They are:

1.  Wald huge basket on Nitto 34F rack on HubbuHubbuH tandem

2.  Wald medium basket on Nitto F20 "Mt Campee" rack on Medium Mountain Mixte

3.  Wald medium basket on Velo Orange Constructeur front rack on Windsor Carrera Sport

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA