Tech question: Rene Herse pulley-style brake yoke -- what am I doing wrong?

[Michael Doleman]

I'm posting this here because I am indeed a Rivendell owner, albeit this topic in particular isn't specific to Rivendell, and only "of interest" to this particular crowd :-)

I have Rene Herse brakes -- a couple sets of the cantilever style, and a set of the center-pulls that I'm about to set-up on a frame I've had custom built with direct-mount studs. One set of the cantilevers I'll set-up on a Sam Hillborne.

For the life of me I cannot seem to get the little pulley-style straddles to properly anchor the cable. I'm hoping someone else has had experience with these and can provide some insight into what I might be doing wrong.

I first tried the brakes a while back on a test set-up, and here's what I experienced:

I tightened the nut which is supposed to anchor the cable to the yoke, and gave the brake lever a solid tug -- all seemed to be fine. But after a few pulls it felt like it was starting to give a bit. And, indeed, with one more good, hard pull, I was able to completely yank the cable right out of the yoke -- with surprising ease, actually. I repeated the same process with a different cable, with the other brake on the same bike, and got pretty-much the same result.

Having had my interest engaged, I decided to do a little "test bed" experiment, by making a little wooden jig (of sorts) to lightly hold the yoke in a small vice. I did that, with the cable secured very lightly. I wanted to see what level of bolt torque was required to hold the cable. At very light tension (talking maybe 3 Nm), I could not for the life of me pull that cable out. It was absolutely rock solid.

So, I'm wondering, now: does the failure occur because I've actually OVER tightened the anchor bolt on the yoke? Is over-tightening it somehow misshaping the hole through which the cable passes, and therefore it's losing its ability to hold? Is there that much more mechanical advantage over the cable, with the lever? And, if so, are the brakes even safe to use? Am I supposed to set them up such that the lever bottoms-out prior to the point at which it's possible to pull the cable free?

I ask these questions because after my test-bed experimentation, I did another bike mount-up and got the same result -- was very easily able to pull the cable free of the yoke after applying the same tension on the bolt as I had on the one I'd held in the vice. Thought I was losing my mind.

Near as I can tell, there's no specific torque indicated for the straddle yoke nut. The instructions provided, in fact, are very basic and give no indication that there are any "gotchas" to look out for.

The brakes themselves are, in fact, amazing. I love them. I have a set of the cantilevers set-up on another bike, albeit with Dia Compe straddle yokes. Works great, stopping power is amazing. But I'd like to be able to use the yokes supplied. Seems odd to me that they are seemingly this touchy. I feel like I must be doing something wrong.

[Laing Conley]

Are you passing the cable all of the way through the tightening bolt and fitting so that it grips at both ends of the hole in the tightening bolt? I also silver solder the ends of my cables. Lots of  cut fit repeat to get the cable length correct. 

Laing Conley

Delray Beach FL

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[Laing Conley]

[Michael Doleman]

To confirm: yes, absolutely positively passing the cable all the way through so that it protrudes out the other side by the correct amount. I start with the cable all the way through the hole and much longer than needed. I then move the yoke as described in the instructions, cut the cable, and re-attach in the correct position.

[Eric Marth]

Hi Michael — I haven't used these yokes before but given your experience setting up bikes and your careful descriptions here I'm guessing you're just overlooking something. Are the bolts stacked properly inside the yoke? Could be a faulty bit of manufacturing? Is there a piece of trash lodged in there you haven't seen? Are you threading the cable through the small hole in the bolt itself? I'd assume you are and see you address "the hole" above. But is that the hole in the yoke and the bolt? Or just the yoke? Just had to ask as we're troubleshooting. Image below for reference 

[Ray Varella]

Michael,

You mentioned having several sets of RH brakes. 

Are you experiencing the same issue with all the yokes?

Is it possible that the hole in the bolt in question is off by a tiny bit and isn’t allowing the assembly to draw up as far as it needs. 

Ray

[J J]

Hi... the same thing happened to me with those Rene Herse yokes on my most recent build. (Rivendell did the build for me.) The cable popped out of the front brake yoke after a couple of super short rides. I tried to put it back together a few times, following RH directions carefully. And yes, I threaded through the small hole in the bolt, too. The cable kept popping out no matter how much or little I torqued the bolt. It's either defective or plain awful design and manufacturing. 

Since I value safety tremendously I could not continue to risk front brake failure. I installed some old Dia-Compe yokes instead and they have been flawless. 

Jim

[Shoji Takahashi]

Hi Michael,

I don't have experience with the RH straddle hangers.

Is the acorn nut bottoming out, and not permitting enough pinching of the brake cable? As a test, take a nut of the appropriate size and use that instead of the acorn nut. You might be able to get more pinch of the brake cable to hold it against the force of the brake lever.

PS: Jim, that's a beautiful Hunqapillar on the Riv blog!

Good luck!

shoji

Arlington MA

[Michael Doleman]

Thanks for the confirmation on similar experience, JJ. Again, I love the brakes, except for the yokes. My feeling on it is that even if I'm doing something "wrong," if the part is that fiddly and prone to error, then I really don't want to mess with it. Something is wrong at another level and I don't want to be trusting my life to spot-on-perfect adjustments.

For me, too, the Dia Compe style roller yokes work absolutely fine, and even look okay. But even with those, I have a bit of a suspicion about yokes where the cable passes through a hole. I feel a lot better about something like a Paul Moon Unit, where the cable is clamped between a groove and washer. "That's not going ANYwhere," as they say.

All this said: obviously people are using the brakes successfully, otherwise we'd have heard of catastrophic failures left and right, and the brakes would be off the market. Right?

[Michael Doleman]

To answer some of the other queries here --

Yes, I've tried with more than one iteration of the yoke, and get the same results. The cable is most definitely passing through the yoke assembly, through the bolt hole, and then through the lower part of the assembly. I've definitely followed all the instructions very carefully -- to the extent that they are provided at all -- and been observant of what I'm doing. For perspective, I'm not new to brake set-ups, I've been working on bikes for 30+ years, and have set-up hundreds of brakes, of all types.

On the question about the acorn not potentially "bottoming-out" -- no. I'm able to pull the cable up very tight. But this alludes, again, to my theory: which is that what's going-on, actually, is that I'm managing to OVER tighten it enough, to the point that perhaps the cable hole is being warped to some degree, and that's what then allows the cable to slip. I guess. I don't know. That's the nearest thing I can tell. If I'm right then it means the bolt should be tightened to some **very specific** torque, but I can't find that number published anywhere.

[J J]

You're welcome, Michael. I can't claim to have anything close to your experience setting up brakes, but I love cantis and I can figure my way around them. What's scary about the RH yoke is that it very well could have been a catastrophic failure. I'm grateful it happened during a very gentle shakeout ride. 

I really appreciate you starting this thread because I wondered if I might have done something different. I asked Riv for advice and they basically said, "we like to use Dia-Compe yokes." 

I've never had a problem with Dia-Compe yokes — all my Rivs have cantis, and all of them have the Dia-Compes. I thought I'd try something different on this new Hunq with the RH yokes, but alas, it's back to the old style. 

(All that said, the RH canti brakes in particular seem beyond what I'm comfortable working on myself. The description says something about bending the arms to adjust toe. Nope, not for me. In fairness they do have a caveat that the direct mount type is for "frame builders and confident mechanics.")

@shoji thanks for your kind words!!

[ian m]

On Wednesday, September 4, 2024 at 2:32:06 PM UTC-4 J J wrote:

It's either defective or plain awful design and manufacturing.

It's certainly not the latter as mine work fantastically. And considering how simple the device is it's hard to see what could be defective. The hole? The nut? The entire process is by turning that nut you are pulling the shaft it threads onto towards the nut, eventually the cable is being pinched both at both top and bottom.

What I find hardest to understand is how Michael was able to tighten the nut to "a very light tension" off-bike and have it hold the cable fine, but can't seem to replicate that on-bike. I think if over-tightening had somehow deformed the hole you'd be able to notice it. If you're not bottoming out the acorn nut I gotta think you can tighten it further, I could be wrong but I'd think the cable would fail before the solid block of the yoke or the shaft would.

[JohnS]

Hello Michael,

Did you grease the "piston"? I have the RH yokes on my Crust Lightening Bolt canti and they work fine, no slipping. It's been a couple years since I built it up and as I recall, I disassembled the whole thing and greased all of the parts, just in case I would ever need to take it apart in the future.

JohnS

[Will Boericke]

I have tried the Dia Compe version of these anchors and found no benefit.  I switched to standard fixed yokes.  Also lighter weight and much less fiddly.

Will

[Takashi]

I've used Rene Herse yokes and Dia Compe cheap yokes.

It seems that with Rene Herse yoke, when there's some oil or grease on the cable, the cable pops out more easily than with Dia Compes.

I've had same issue, so cleaned both yoke and cable with degreaser carefully, and no problem since then.

Takashi

2024年9月5日木曜日 21:32:31 UTC+9 wboe...@gmail.com:

[Michael Doleman]

I'm glad to see that this topic is generating some lively discussion :-)

Based on the input so far, it seems that people have had somewhat mixed results -- some experiencing issues similar to those I have, and others having had none at all. That's sort-of what I expected since -- again -- my assumption would be that if there was something truly, systemically wrong with the yoke design, they would be off the market. Obviously they've been tested and people are using them.

All I want to discover is what I'm doing differently from those who've had success.

I've read all the comments here and would say that I haven't yet seen any ideas that I think are a factor. I've been highly cognizant of getting the bolt hole aligned properly, getting sufficient cable length through the unit, and making sure everything is clean and clear.

Recounting, again, the way it's worked for me, the cable seems to start coming loose after a couple hard pulls on the lever. And it's that aspect of it which really gives me great pause. What if I'm confident in the set-up I have while the bike is on the stand, and while out on a test ride, but then the cable comes loose later, for reasons I can't see?

I'm sure that an actual engineer could tell me why I'm wrong in saying so, but to my eye the design of the yoke doesn't seem trustworthy. Most of the yokes that I've ever used clamp the cable against a groove, with a washer. The Rene Herse yoke, on the other hand, causes the cable to be, in effect, "crimped" against the inside wall of the yoke body. That crimping action deforms the profile shape of the cable by a bit, and I'm theorizing that's what might make it easier for it to slip and then pull through.

In my opinion the best yokes I've used are the Paul Moon Unit. They lock the cable into a groove by levering a washer against it, which (if I've got my amateur physics right) would yield a significant increase in clamping force over a unit where the cable passes through a hole in the center of the bolt that holds the clamping washer. And, certainly, over a unit that doesn't even use a clamping washer, as the Rene Herse. 

So... based on my experience, unless there's a true "a-ha" moment yet to come, I'll likely pair my Rene Herse brakes with a different style of yoke. Again: no knock at all on the brakes themselves -- they are great. And no knock, either, on the yokes since this does seem to be a "me problem" and others have been successful in setting them up.

[Jeffrey Arita]

@Michael Doleman:

I too encountered this issue (RH cantis + RH pulley brake yoke).  Way back in 2019 I purchased a complete bike that had that brake combo.  I was making some minor modifications to the bike, prepping it for that year's PBP, and I noted the brake issue with the yokes.  Not having a lot of time to deal with it, I went ahead and purchased  different yokes (these).  I fitted them up to the RH cantis and all was fine for PBP (and beyond).  Since around 2020 the bike (and brakes) have been decommissioned but I plan on getting it back up and running later this fall.  I plan to examine a bit more carefully those RH yokes and see if I can get them working.

So, yes, there are others out there with the similar problem.

Best regards,

Jeff

Claremont, CA

[ian m]

On Wednesday, September 4, 2024 at 7:22:42 PM UTC-4 ian m wrote:

What I find hardest to understand is how Michael was able to tighten the nut to "a very light tension" off-bike and have it hold the cable fine, but can't seem to replicate that on-bike.

Was thinking about this more today and my money is on undertightening the nut. I think you were able to get the proper torque on the nut when you had the yoke in your jig+vise because that jig was acting as a counterforce against tightening. When you have the yoke on bike it's awkward and you kinda have to hold it in one hand while turning the wrench with your other and before the nut is properly torqued the yoke wants to turn with it, and your hand isn't holding it in place as strongly as a jig in a vice. I'd put money on that being the scenario.

Use whatever parts give you confidence, but I think people need to think twice about throwing out accusations of defective products or bad design/manufacturing when they can't figure out how to operate them.

[Steve]

Michael, at this point I would consider contacting RH tech support - 

https://www.renehersecycles.com/product-setup-questions/ 

[Femi Agbabiaka]

I've had the same issue, RH yoke + RH centerpulls (non-direct mount).

I solved it temporarily by (by my feel) overtorquing the bolt. Like really getting some elbow grease in -- I cut my hands quite often doing this while installing and adjusting that particular pair of brakes. 

Eventually I just stopped using the yoke and swapped to a pair of dia-compe hangers, which are much easier to deal with due to the ability to pass the cable straight through the hanger into the dead space between the yoke and the tire/centerpull body. IMO the Moon Unit is the best, as you said, but really anything that taxes a hex wrench and has a little bit more meat to hold on to is a lot less fiddly for me. 

I'd say yeah, if you really want to use those hangers (they are really beautiful), talk to RH support, maybe there's one weird trick they have.

On Thursday, September 5, 2024 at 7:49:34 AM UTC-7 Michael Doleman wrote:

[jeff conaway]

I just set up a front RH cantilever on my bike.

I read this thread before setting the brake up, so I was aware of this potential issue.  I looked through my parts bin to find different yokes that would work in case the RH one didn't, and I found a Tektro yoke I had used for years with no problem.  It uses the same mechanism - the cable is "pinched" between the yoke body and the inside of a hole that the cable passes through.  Based on this, I decided there was no reason to use that over the RH yoke.

What I was surprised by was that reaching the specified 8nm on the acorn nut required much more force than I would have exerted if I was just tightening the bolt by feel.  I had to hold the yoke in an adjustable wrench while tightening with the torque wrench in order to hit 8nm.

I know that Micheal, the OP was wondering if he had overtightened the acorn nut, but based on my experience the nut is intended to be quite tight.

So far I haven't had any issues with the cable slipping.

Jeff

[Garth]

As mentioned, do contact RH, a phone call would be more helpful as it's a two way conversation real-time where emails are like sending a letter to outer space and waiting for a return, like when you get one of those spinning wheels from a website. Waiting forever. 

Otherwise, count me in the with a basic Dia-Compe style carrier for being reliable and very functional. I don't see the point of the roller types or any that you can't readliy and easily remove the cable from. To me they are limiting, you can't simply unhook and completely remove the cable to fully open/release the brakes. Even the Tektro carrier that encases the cable is worthless in that regard. These are cases of over-engineering something that isn't complicated, in my opinion. 

[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

Garth stated wrt the RH roller design:  " I don't see the point of the roller types ...."

I believe the RH roller design allows the use of smaller diameter straddle cable.   RH specifies Campy deraillier cable (1.2mm diameter) vs the larger diameter straddle cable used by the original Dia Compe style yoke.   I think RH claims the thinner cable contributes to better modulation.

The Dia Compe yoke with the pulley should allow for the smaller diameter straddle cable and I believe Dia Compe specifies a 1.2mm straddle cable with that design.

I have the RH centerpulls and did have the cable pull out of the yoke originally.   I tightened the acorn nut as hard as could and the cable held.    Be sure to have acorn nut facing OUTWARD to get the most torque into the nut.

The RH centerpulls are extremely hard and time consuming to setup.  Their performance does not appear to better than other CPs.  They came with the frame which I bought from a list member.   I would NOT buy these new.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Scott G.]

Try the real MAFAC straddle carrier, it has  hole in the bolt,

and it pinches like a Moon unit.

And it is French, so you know it is better.

I am using MAFAC carriers with 1.2mm straddle on MAFAC brakes

with the RH rebuild kit, brakes are fine.

[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

Scott stated:   " Try the real MAFAC straddle carrier,..."     Scott, sounds good, a few questions:

Isn't the Mafac carrier just a sliding one, like the standard Dai Compe??

Does the Mafac carrier "bend" more than Dia Compe and the larger angle allow use the 1.2mm cable??

Is there a source for these, or just from old Mafac's???

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Peter Adler]

The MAFAC carrier is the one Dia-Compe cloned.The DC one is wiser, and has a slightly shallower angle; but I think th reason MAFAC uses a smaller diameter cable is because the gap between front and back of the carrier is narrower, so a wider brake cable doesn't get all the way down into the bottom of the curve. MAFAC just used narrower cable all around, presumably because smaller not-North American he-manly riders weren't honking down on brake levers, so there was less risk of snapping a straddle cable (FWIW, although I have seen snapped straddle cables, I have never witnessed one snapping, nor have I ever heard a story from anyone claiming to have witnessed/experienced same).

Those of us who have been (and are about to be again) habitual users of MAFAC Racer/RAID centerpulls and barcons should already know this One Neat Trick: The recess on the straddle cable bobbin (well, it LOOKS like a bobbin) that these brake models use* is the same size as a Campagnolo shift cable nipple. If you buy the superlong Jagwire tandem cables to get from your barcon to your rear derailleur, that cable comes with both Shimano/Suntour and Campagnolo nipples at the opposite ends. Cut off the Campagnolo end, run your shifter cable, and save the cut-off cable end to replace your MAFAC straddle cables with ones that aren't 50+ years old.

I don't know about other locales, but the SF Bay Area is where old French bikes have come to retire and rust away for over 50 years. Around here, every shop that hasn't emptied out its trash recently and every community bike shop is overflowing with MAFAC bits. My guess is that this area is not unique; a lot of Bike Boom bikes from France/Belgium/Switzerland/UK came with MAFACs.

About ten years ago, before Missing Link in downtown Berkeley closed its separate repair shop and consolidated in one storefront, they had a heap of discarded bike parts at the back of the shop taken off customers' bikes and not yet trashed. For liability reasons, none of the parts were for sale, but several of the repairmen indulgently permitted me to root around and look for interesting old bits. At one point, I went through and separated all the MAFAC centerpulls and associated accessories out of the pile; as I remember, I came away with 12-15 sets, and hauled them all away. On at least one other occasion, I've done the same thing at a local bike kitchen, as the youngs operating the place thought that centerpulls were grandpa brakes.

So I have a stash, or at least I used to have one; I've given a lot of MAFAC bits away over the years, and built up MAFAC-equipped bikes for other people. If someone's desperate for MAFAC straddle cable hangers, drop me a line. Until I get tired of it or feel like I'm running low, I'll root through my stash and send a pair for...hell, I don't know; how about $5+a buck or two for shipping?

* as do some other MAFAC centerpull models; the notable exception is the short-reach Competition, which uses a cable unlike all other MAFACs

Peter "Recycling Cheapskate" Adler

frantically trying to build up a 1969 Raleigh Competition beater out of his parts stash (including MAFACs with Spence Wolfe-style brake boosters), to replace the 1984 Trek 720 he left on a BART train two weeks ago (probably never to be seen again) as his pack mule in

Berkeley, California/USA

[Michael Doleman]

Since I've seen some activity on this thread I thought I'd chime back in with some notes regarding my... ...***ongoing experiences*** with the Rene Herse brakes. But first: a disclaimer that in NO WAY whatsoever am I trying to make this any kind of general disparagement of Rene Herse products. If their brakes didn't work, they wouldn't be able to sell them. So, obviously, other people are perfectly happy with them, and this is just MY personal experience.

I wanted a very old-world style randonneuse bike, so settled on a custom frame that would support the RH center-pull brakes. Which, between the frame and the brakes, represented quite an investment. The bike turned out looking absolutely gorgeous...

...but, man, those brakes were an absolute nightmare to set up. I'm not the world's greatest or most astute mechanic, but after something like 30 years of wrenching on bikes, and as someone who does technical work for a living, I know what I'm doing. I spent hours and hours and HOURS trying to get those brakes dialed-in, and honestly never got them to where I ideally wanted them to be.

And then -- wow -- on my first "serious" ride on the bike, I did a couple fairly long, fast, semi-technical-ish descents... ...and those were a couple of my most terrifying experiences on a bike, ever. If I got up to speeds above ~25mph, I was NOT able to slow myself in time to comfortably/safely make it through some of the tighter turns. I was out into oncoming lanes, and if there'd been more traffic I'd have been in real danger. No matter how hard I strangled the brake levers, it wasn't enough to control speed. The only way to make it down safely was to ride the brakes, hard, the whole time, keeping speed to around 15mph. It was harrowing, and my hands were aching.

Don't get me started, regarding the squeal. Hoo boy... That is a whole other story. I've set-up PLENTY of center pull and cantilever brakes, and know all the ins-and-outs of how to prevent squeal. I've never experienced anything quite like the decibel level of the sound produced by these brakes.

My set-up, BTW, was using the RH brakes WITHOUT the stock pulley straddle. Per my previous experiences, as described in the original post, I could never get them to work in a way that satisfied me of the set-up being reliably safe. I used a different, more standard style yoke.

Again, I don't think that it is *specifically* the brakes, themselves, that represented the issue. I think it was a combination of factors -- IDK -- cable compression, frame flex, etc. Just something about the set-up which didn't work.

I should mention that for me, when it comes to brakes, I('ve learned that I) prefer drop-dead simplicity, and a VERY responsive feel. I like to feel the brakes biting the instant I apply lever pressure, and I expect to feel true stopping power with only moderate pressure, on a descent.

Ultimately I sent the frame back to the builder for modifications to make it work for standard side-pull calipers. I use the Tekro R559 long-reach brake, now, with compressionless housing. Never been happier. The performance is absolutely flawless. They are an absolute breeze to set-up, and even look pretty nice. All for well under 100 bucks for the set.

All this said: for anyone that loves the brakes, or that pulley-style straddle, and you can get it to work -- my hat's off to you.

And I am still a fan of Rene Herse -- the tires, cranks, racks, other small parts: I love and will continue to purchase.

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[Ben Miller]

I got a pair of vintage Mafac CP that I rebuilt with the RH rebuild kit and RH straddle cable yokes for my Roadeo. These replaced my Tektro R559's. Getting the cable length into the yoke is pretty fiddley, but I find that's the case with most (Paul moon unit's, etc), though maybe even more so. As someone else pointed out, you do need to tighten them probably more than you think (same with Paul MU's!). The Mafac's function pretty much the same as the R559's that they replaced, by my feel at least. But it did allow me to install a small CP-mounted rack and remove the much larger Nitto Mark's rack off the Roadeo. Plus they look cooler than the R559 ;) Some day maybe I'll get CP posts brazed on and convert them to direct mount, which I think would be really cool, but also entirely unnecessary. 

[Matthew Danning]

Interesting discussion about the Mafacs, R559s etc.  On my Bleriot, I started out with Dia Compe 750s from Riv, but we never quite satisfied with the braking.  I too like short throw on the levers, a quick bite, and good modulation.  Couldn't get there with the 750s regardless of pads.  I finally switched to R559s and satisfaction ensued.  And about the Mafacs,  just rebuilt a pair also and put them on a 70s British frame that was built with 27" wheels, so I needed long reach brakes.  Interestingly, I first tried the 750s, which worked fine, but switched to the Mafacs for the vintage look.  I'm using inexpensive Dia Compe pads as a first attempt and they work quite well for a knock-around bike.  I find that centerpulls are not as firm as side pulls, but feel right for a vintage bike. As always, YMMV.

Side question re Bleriots:  I can't remember seeing many postings about that model.  Are they less popular than others within this group?

[Michael Doleman]

Interesting, and thanks for weighing-in. I really enjoy hearing of everyone's varied experiences with these different braking set-ups. Over all the years I've been having fun working on bikes, I'd have to say that braking is always the most complex and mysterious aspect of the system to understand and dial-in.

I love classic/traditional parts, and those older Mafac brakes are lovely. I've refurbished a set of RAIDs, and someday intend to put them on an old Bertin frame I have. They have the center-mount bracket, however; the frame is not direct-mount. And as to that: something in the back of my mind kinda makes me wonder if perhaps THAT is a key factor in the equation. As in: perhaps that bracket offers, actually, a more rigid base for the calipers, as opposed to the direct mount studs on the frame(?). I really don't know...

I've had a lot of fairly mixed results setting up the modern Dia-compe center-pull calipers -- 610, 700, 750 models. They are "okay," sure, but in my opinion simply cannot offer the same performance as a dual-pivot side-pull caliper. The Tektro R559 is, at least IMHO, a superior option in almost every way. Particularly with the additional investment of compressionless housing, I find the performance to be quite amazing.

That said: man, it sure WAS nice to be able to mount one of those traditional style front racks (such as RH offers). I really liked that option with the center-pull brakes. But there are plenty of other options that come close. I am now using -- on that bike -- a Nitto "F-16" style handlebar hook rack for the dinky rando bag I carry, and it works great (plus it's only about 140 grams!)

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[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

I sure wish someone would come up with a design for braze on's for dual pivots sidepull brakes.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ