Cliffhanger alternatives?

[Richard Rose]

2.5"-2.6" tires seem to be at the very upper limits for the venerable Cliffhanger. Is anyone aware of a 700c  rim brake rim that is a bit wider? I have not found one.

[lconley]

Alex DM-24. When I was deciding what rims to get built for the Hubbuhubbuh, Rich said that the Alex rims were slightly wider - 1mm -> 32 mm wide.

Laing

Delray Beach FL

[lconley]

2mm wider.

Laing

[Scott Luly]

Richard, what width tire are you wanting to run on your new Gus, 2.8?

I'm getting some Cliffs built for my new Gus, and I plan on running 2.6 to begin with and like having the option to run 2.8 tires. 2.6 is within Velocity's recommended rim width. I think one could safely go outside of "recommended" tire width and run a 2.8 on a Cliff. It's .1 per side wider. It's not like going from a 1.9 to say a 2.8.

I find a decent selection of 2.6 tires out there, 2.8 not so much. Have you got a good 2.8 in mind? Do tell. I'd like to look into it. I wouldn't hesitate to run 2.8 on my Cliffs, whenever they show up on my door step...

Also, please share what shakes out in your BB search for your Gus.

Best,

Scott in about to get very cold Montana

On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 08:29:36 AM MST, Richard Rose <rmro...@gmail.com> wrote:

2.5"-2.6" tires seem to be at the very upper limits for the venerable Cliffhanger. Is anyone aware of a 700c  rim brake rim that is a bit wider? I have not found one.

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[iamkeith]

I used the Nimbus Dominator Unicycle rims on my Susie.  42mm outside /.32 inside.  They don't offer the machined sidewall version anymore, but I haven't had braking issues.  I can detect the pinned joint at times, but it's not a detractor.  They're stronger than any other rim  (they're meant to carry a rider's e tire weight on one unsuspended wheel) but feel MUCH lighter in reality than they do on paper.  I wasn't too concerned about long-term aesthetics, but the brake surface has held up remarkably well.   It's a good anodizing.  I have anodized rims on one of my most used bikes from 1997 where the finish has held up well, too.  In both cases, the blemishes occur when you use them in wet, muddy conditions and get grit on the pads. I have some Kris Holm 29er unicycle rims too, that are even wider and DO have a machined braking surface, but they'd be hard to find. 

Ive posted pics of my susie a few times here over the past couple of years, but can try to take some more if you're interested.

[Richard Rose]

Hi Scott. Right now thinking 2.6” Maxxis Recons. Possibly Teravail Ehline 2.5” but I read they really are more like 2.25”. I’ve owned true “plus” bikes before & ran 2.8”-3.0” tires on 30-45mm wide rims with success. Not sure I want to go that big. Not a lot to choose from in rim brake rims.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 13, 2022, at 10:42 AM, 'Scott Luly' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[Ryan Frahm]

Hey Keith, are those rims tubeless compatible? 

As for machined sidewall, neither set of my cliffhangers have them and braking hasn’t been an issue even with the ice and snow. I have seen plenty of 2.8” tires successfully run on a 25mm ID (like the cliffhanger) rim so i wouldn’t worry much there. You just can’t go quite as low with the tire pressure or they get a bit squirmy. Rider weight makes a big difference on that though at a certain point as well. 

[Ryan Frahm]

Richard, my 2.5” Ehline measures right at 2.5”. They are huge sitting next to the Fleecer Ridge 55mm. They roll very fast compared to the Maxxis tire as well. 

[iamkeith]

I should add:  i built my wheels while waiting for my first-run susie to arrive.  (I think I got the rims before the pre-sale even)

  I wanted to max out tire width and couldn't imagine a 2.8 tire working well on a cliffhanger.  I like wide rim-to-tire ratios for numerous reasons.  Now that I've done it, I feel like 2.8 is too much tire for this bike.  At least with the V speedster tires I have.  They steer funny and raise the bb too much.  So now I'm looking for a good 2.6 tire  which I think will be about right.  I just haven't found a tread pattern that appeals to me.  My humble, layman's prediction this size is likely where the industry will shake out, and tires will be available for a long time, too.  It's rare that I ever feel like a bike has more tire clearance than I need  but this was a pleasant exception.  So narrower rims "might" have worked for me too.

"

[iamkeith]

The Dominators aren't technically tubeless.  I suppose ghetto technique is always an option.  I've decided I hate tubeless though, and am reverting to tubes on my bikes that are tubeless.  On my Susie, I used some of those new-at-the-time polyurethane tubes from Tubolito, to save weight.  I can't technically endorse these because they're not supposed to be used with rim brakes.  But, once again, I've had no issues and am super happy with them.  I just don't bomb downhills where Id generate high brake temps..   It's a joy to NEVER have to pump up your tires... in contrast to tubelss where I have to do it all the time.  I figure the bigger volume helps dissipate heat, too.

[Richard Rose]

Good to know!

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 13, 2022, at 11:09 AM, Ryan Frahm <fra...@gmail.com> wrote:

Richard, my 2.5” Ehline measures right at 2.5”. They are huge sitting next to the Fleecer Ridge 55mm. They roll very fast compared to the Maxxis tire as well. 

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[Hoch in ut]

I’ve run both Ehline 2.5” and Honcho 2.6” on Cliffhanger rims. Both measured just about true to indicated. Zero issues setting up tubeless. I’d go with Cliffhangers, personally. 

I actually have an almost brand new set of 29” Cliffhanger wheels, laced to SON28 and Bitex rear (100/135). I wish I had a bike to use them on but I don’t. I built them for another bike but only used them for 50 miles before selling the bike. Never even hooked up lights to the dynamo. Let me know if interested. 

[Ryan Frahm]

Interesting. I can’t imagine not having tubeless with bigger tires especially. Been tubeless for about 10 years and have never had one issue. I did have trouble with my first set needing to be pumped back up every few days for the first month or so. A shop set those up though. I have found that using a tube for a quick ride to make sure the tape is set to be a key. Shops do not take the time for that. 

[iamkeith]

Found a couple pics on my phone, showing the nimbus rims and resulting profile of 2.8 tire.  FWIW:

[Mackenzy Albright]

IME: type or riding pending rim width in popular bike market is a bit inflated. I run 2.5's on 19mm inner width with no issues. Ive ran rat traps on 17mm inner width tires. The main issue is rolling at low pressure if running tubeless. I've gotten over the perks of tubeless because I like to self service my bike. With tubes if the pressure is kept in check I've had no issues. 

Ive also asked Jam Heine about this early on when rat traps came out. The width changes the tire shape and ride characteristics. A narrower rim gives better pneumatic suspension, restricts footprint,  but will roll at low pressure. Wider rims spreads tires giving a larger foot print, ability to run lower pressure without rolling, but sacrifice some of the squish. 

I wouldn't run narrow rims on a downhill bike with 2.6 tires. But for slow trail mashing over rocks and roots.

I think that bike industry wants to cover it's ass for legal reasons and sell you specialty parts. There's a lot of wiggle room. 

*Based on experience and opinions. There are a lot of variables in play here, so it's not going to be universal for everyone. Just a counter point to everyone thinking they need 25mm internal width rims. 

[iamkeith]

I don't know.  Like  @frahm30 (sorry, don't know your actual name) said, I think rider weight might have a lot to do with it.  I had RTPs on my All Rounder, using 17mm rims, and absolutely hated it.   I moved them over to an old mountain bike with wider rims and they're great.   On the narrow rims, I had to pump them up so high to avoid squirming while cornering that it felt like I was riding on a pair of basketballs.  Bouncing down the road.  Before 2.6 and 2.8 tires were a thing, I settled on 2.4 Ardents on Velocity Dually rims as my mtb tire of choice, because I liked what the over-size rim did for them.   I could air them down as far as I wanted, without worry about rolling a tire off the rim.   (This is where I do appreciate  tubeless, because I'd get pinch flats otherwise.)    Part of my preferences might be influenced by my huge fear of rolling tires though.  Any squirm or collapsing of the sidewall  send shudders through me and makes me ride tentatively.  I've rolled tires right off the rim a couple of times, and have never recovered physically from one of the resultant accidents.     

[Paul Clifton]

Richard,

I run 2.8" G-ones on Cliffhangers on my Gus without any problems. I don't think the frame would take a bigger tire, and v-brakes almost certainly won't. I already had to Swap the Paul Motolites for Deores to clear the 2.8" G-ones.

So if you want Cliffhangers on your Susie, no need to worry about the rim width being a limiting factor.

Paul in AR

[Brian Turner]

Paul brings up an excellent point. If you plan on running the max tire size on your Gus, just make sure the brake you use will clear it. I had already purchased MotoLites for mine before even considering a tire size. Ended up going with 2.5” Ehlines, which turned out to clear the brakes by maybe 1cm. I doubt I’d feel comfortable with any less clearance just due to the chances of picking up mud and rocks and sticks on chunky treads. Of course, this says more about the limitations of certain brakes than it does tires. With the right brake choice, you should be able to run the 2.8s no problem… just keep it in mind.

On Dec 13, 2022, at 12:56 PM, Paul Clifton <paulgc...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[lconley]

Shimano Deores are only 4mm (1/6") longer than Paul Motolites. If you want something longer:

Laing

[Richard Rose]

Pm’ed you.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 13, 2022, at 11:34 AM, Hoch in ut <cack...@gmail.com> wrote:

I’ve run both Ehline 2.5” and Honcho 2.6” on Cliffhanger rims. Both measured just about true to indicated. Zero issues setting up tubeless. I’d go with Cliffhangers, personally. 

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[Wesley]

I am glad to see that Keith already suggested unicycle rims. I used some to turn a Redline Monocog 29er into a poor man's snowbike, and loved it. That one used disc brakes, though, so I am not sure what I would have done about rim brakes. I got them from unicycle.com, FWIW. I used plain ol' duct tape as rim tape, to give you an idea of how wide those rims were. Tires were Schwalbe Big Apples in the summer and some WTB 29x2.55 knobbies in winter.

-Wes

On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 8:01:29 AM UTC-8 iamkeith wrote:

[Paul Clifton]

Thanks for the chart Laing!

Deore's and many others clear 2.8" G Ones on a 650b Cliffhanger on the Gus just fine. I guess I get some leaves in between the tire and the cable sometimes, but that happens with all rim brakes IME.

The Motolites technically cleared, if I set them up very close to the rim so that the arms were as vertical as possible. But it was too close for comfort, and I did hear some rubbing occasionally, but not sure what was deforming to cause it ...

Paul in AR

[Paul Clifton]

This just reminded me ...  I scored some 27.5x2.8" WTB Rangers the other day. I wonder if they'll be taller on the cliffhangers.

[Den John]

Halo components in the UK do some wide rims for rim brakes in 26", 27.5" and 29".

Their SAS is 26 or 27.5" and 30mm internal width.

Their T2 is 29" and 26mm internal width.

I think they have some other models too.

I have the SAS 27.5" on my single speed MTB. I was worried they'd feel heavy (760g) but not so far. They did squeal a bit because the braking surface needs to bed in, otherwise no problems.

Currently running 2.8" WTB Rangers with tubes. Not tried tubeless setup yet with these. I like the Rangers a lot in that size, but seems like they are getting hard to find, at least here in the EU.

Cheers,

Johnny

[Patrick Moore]

FWIW, I have been happily riding 72 mm (actual; labeled 3"/76 mm) tires (tubed and tubeless) on (non-tubeless) Alex 24 mm OW (again, OW, so internal width probably what, 20 mm?) rims (with, tubless, a lot of Stan's tape) and a cupful of OS Endurance in each tire. 13 psi. Works fine, as did the 1.95s on 19 mm OW (13 mm IW) rims 30 years ago at 28 psi.

As with derailleur specs, I think that real world workability extends much further than manufacturers' specs.

On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 8:29 AM Richard Rose <rmro...@gmail.com> wrote:

2.5"-2.6" tires seem to be at the very upper limits for the venerable Cliffhanger. Is anyone aware of a 700c  rim brake rim that is a bit wider? I have not found one.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum