Saddles! What a Pain!!

[Jay]

A thread dedicated to complaining about saddles!  Plus other related topics such as cycling shorts, chamois cream, improper bike fit, and weather.  Enjoy :-)

I'll start.  And I'm going to go with, weather.  Hot.  Humid.  Leave-you-dripping-in-sweat.  Weather.

I've had Brooks C17 on my two bikes for the last 15 months.  After initially installing the saddle and sitting upon it as I went 20 feet from my driveway I was like "this fits me well, it's supportive, yet I can still sink into it a bit, feels good when I'm pedalling".  And it really has been great, with only a few hiccups since then.  One thing I don't like about it, the surface is rough.  The brown is rougher than the black, to me at least.  The black is on my Salsa Fargo.  I don't think I have one complaint about that saddle on that bike, but then I only ride that bike up to 1.5hrs at a time, on trails, where I'm off the saddle a lot (similar to mtb).  I have the brown on my Roadini and it looks good.  I even have a back-up for when it wears out.  Enough about that, on to my complaint!

The last time I rode in heat, like where I'm wearing s/s shirt, shorts, helmet and gloves and no extra layers, was October 2024.  I put the year after October as it was so long ago it's now strange writing or saying October, without qualifying - 2024.  Riding in cool weather so often means I'm really acclimated to it, plus I'm generally not a fan of doing anything outdoors when it's hot.

Yesterday I had the day to myself as the family was working.  I usually ride within an hour of waking up and I wake up early, but yesterday I waited for my daughter to leave for work so we can have breakfast together.  This was going to be a long ride, adventurous with a new route, connecting two rail trails, lots of gravel paths and roads, and very little traffic.  Stopping a lot to smell the flowers.  And it would have been great, if not for some discomfort.  Oh, and I had legs, and felt great.

I headed out around 9:30 and it was actually quite pleasant, and wasn't really getting very hot, but to me, hot enough.  I have three brands of bib shorts.  I opted for the one yesterday that fits me the best (I mean it really stays in place, doesn't ride up or anything, including the chamois, with the outer layer apparently taking any friction as it moves and the bib doesn't).  Sounds good, good marketing, but I learned that when you're hot, have been pedalling for over 3 hours on gravel roads, trails; lots of pedalling in the saddle, having to remember to stand up every so often; that a bib glued to your butt so-to-speak, getting all hot and sweaty (sorry, TMI), isn't all that good.  About 2.5hr into the ride I can feel the friction on the sit bones.  Stopped a lot, but could never maneuver myself or the chamois, like on long descents, I couldn't get any air in there.  Long story short, got home and had a couple of saddle sores.  Nothing awful, but it did have me questioning the saddle, shorts, and riding in the heat.  I mean these shorts are great under winter rights when the temp is -10C, but now I've learned, not so good for hot days.  This morning I went for a short trail ride, different shorts, and that riding style on that bike meant lots of out-of-the-saddle time, plus it was cool.  Was a fantastic ride, albeit short.

What have you got!?

[Eric Daume]

The worst saddle I ever had was the stock Velo (?) saddle on the original Clem. So actually painful for me that I didn’t make it to the end of the block before turning around and changing it out. 

Not a fan of Brooks leather saddles. I’ve tried them a handful of times, but to me they’re just hard, heavy, slippery, expensive, uncomfortable, and not weatherproof. No thanks. I am finding I like the C series though. They address most of these concerns AND have much nicer saddle bag loops. 

Eric

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[JohnS]

I have a Brooks Swift, ti rails on my rando bike (Crust Bolt, canti) and I recently bought a Gilles Berthoud Galibier also with ti rails for my road bike (82' Sequoia) . I like them for their lighter weight, ti rails have a nice give to them and the leather doesn't have the longer skirt/sides that a Brooks B17 has. 

JohnS

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[Richard Rose]

I was in love with an SQ Labs saddle on my Jones 29. When I got my Clem L (first Riv) on went the SQ & it was pretty great. But I quickly fell under the “all things Riv” spell & got a great deal on a B67. It took some fiddling as I was loathe to tip the nose up but it was really good. So good I was able to ditch padded shorts/bibs for wool boxers - zero issues. There were times the B67 felt short in the nose though. At that time I was gifted a B17 & yes, the B67 could be a bit noisy - AND it was a true boat anchor. So one day I threw the B17 on there & that is pretty much the end of the story. It’s the saddle I never think about. So good in fact that I ordered up a B17 special - a truly lovely thing - when I built up my Gus. Gus is my MTB & yes, I ride some rowdy rock & root strewn singletrack with a B17. I will sometimes wear the padded shorts depending on the trail. But yeah, same absolutely comfort. In short, I am shocked that the B17 works for me. I do not think it would work for me if I were not riding very upright with the “nose up” saddle. But as is I am in saddle heaven. Except for this; the B17 special has developed a “creak” not unlike the B67. Not sure what’s up with that.:(

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 8, 2025, at 8:51 PM, Jay <jason....@gmail.com> wrote:

A thread dedicated to complaining about saddles!  Plus other related topics such as cycling shorts, chamois cream, improper bike fit, and weather.  Enjoy :-)

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[Josiah Anderson]

Jay,

I also didn't like the roughness of the C17 when I first got one. Then one day I was shellacking my bar tape and I looked at the saddle and thought, "Hmm..." I decided to apply several coats of shellac and see what would happen. I consider it a great success; it made the saddle both much more comfortable and (in my opinion) nicer-looking. Here are photos from when I first did that back in 2020: https://photos.app.goo.gl/MkzYAG8S7W6yS7419

I actually just did another C17 with this treatment, a black one this time. It looked gray and faded before shellac, and was back to black afterwards. Both saddles were treated with pre-mixed Zinsser Bullseye shellac. I would definitely recommend trying out this technique if you like the Cambium but want a smoother texture.

Josiah Anderson 

Tacoma, WA 

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[Patrick Moore]

My bum liked the shape of the C17 but I didn’t like the rough surface that made it harder to adjust position on the saddle, as one is always doing while riding. My pants always “caught” on the fabric and “stuck” there. But I found the shape more comfortable for the slightly more upright position I had on the Dahon Hon Solo, better than B 17s or Flyers or the B72 for that matter, not quite as comfortable as the Pro. I ride mostly in good touring shorts without lining and in low humidity conditions.

My favorite — as in “I don’t think about it” — saddle is the original Flite which I have on all my bikes. Again, in non-lined shorts, be these cycling-specific or cut off khakis, they are my best compromise for support and non-interference. The thing requiring more consideration is nether garments. I’ve been wearing very loose (buy a size larger than normal) but thin nylon boxers and these generally do well in avoiding bunching and friction in our high desert climate, but I’ve noticed that these work better with certain of my shorts than with others, for some reason I can’t identify. I’ve been thinking of using something closer fitting but still longer in the leg than briefs; any ideas? Note that if possible I’d like to find an undergarment that is reasonably priced enough to buy in dozen-at-at-time lots (2-week laundry cycles) to wear every day, since I dislike having to change just to go ride a bike.

I do have a few pairs of wool cycling shorts with real chamois (one pair has a synthetic non-padded liner)  that I use for very occasional longer rides, but I hate with a passion tight, clingy lycra shorts with thick padding.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[Patrick Moore]

That shellacked C17 is very elegant. How well does the shellacked fabric stand up to the friction of riding? Do you have to apply a new coat every 500 miles? Does it come off an stick to your pants?

[Josiah Anderson]

Thanks, Patrick. I don't remember ever having to reapply shellac, and I rode that saddle for about four years before the rubber broke (which was due to preexisting damage and unrelated to the shellac). When I first applied the shellac, people on IBOB cautioned me that it might stick to my pants, but I never had that happen. I was mostly riding it in cooler northern climates, though; no idea whether it'll behave the same way in NM.

Josiah Anderson 

Tacoma WA

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[Jeffrey Arita]

Hi Jay,

I am replying as we (SO and I) both ride Brooks Cambium (SO - C19, me - C17).  Please note however - we both really like the 'carved' models - the one with the oval hole, vs. the solid model.

Looking at it another way, have you tried riding without traditional cycling shorts?  For bicycle touring (several month duration) where we normally depart during the summer months, I have chosen not to ride in traditional lycra shorts with a chamois (real or synthetic).  Instead I've gone with wool underwear and whatever standard shorts over them.  The wool underwear is naturally antimicrobial and they dry out pretty quickly.  Since we camp, we may not have the ability to wash clothing, so I've gone upwards of 5 days wearing the wool u/w.  Not being totally enclosed, the wool u/w and regular shorts breathe better, too.   

[Jeffrey Arita]

Ooops.  Sorry hit the post button too quick.

We did first try the solid Cambium models and found them to be 'okay.'  Upon trying the carved models, that oval hole seemed to make the entire surface a little bit softer (makes sense) and relieves pressure in the sensitive areas.  This pretty much enables us to wear regular (wool) underwear and overshorts.  Our normal daily duration on a tour is between 6 to 8 hours.

Best regards,

Jeff & Lori

Claremont, CA

[Jay]

I may give the shellack a go.  We have that brand at our local Canadian Tire.

Jeffrey - I have tried the solid C17 (all I have) without padded shorts and didn't like it.  I tend to sit bar back on a saddle and I can feel the rivets.  I tried the cut-out version a few years ago and didn't think I liked it, and I'm not sure it will solve it for me in terms of not needing padded shorts.  I don't want to try this out again, at least right now.

Saddle love/hate is interesting I think.  I listened to a podcaster (bikepacking related) for a while and he rides really long distances (300km+ a day, rough surfaces, sometimes multi day).  Saddle never mentioned (as he's talking about his rides, equipment; even mentioning the saddle was 'fine').  And then it was a long time after, and he's had many instances of saddle sores, chafing, tried with/without padded shorts, C17, B17 and other saddles, is maybe still using B17 but not perfect for him.  That's my point though, not hearing about saddle woes doesn't mean they don't exist, and I think the % of people who have this completely figured out (e.g., ride 3-4 hours or a lot longer, with zero issues), is very small % of cyclists.  I think people just live with it.  Not sure it can be fully solved for everyone, for a number of reasons.

For me, I'm still fine with the C17, with the right shorts.  And usually fine on rides of 3hrs or less, if not sweltering heat.  I'm not sure I will find the perfect saddle and 'what I wear below' so I can churn out 4-5hr rides with 'zero' issues.

Anyways, no other reports so far of woes, so I will assume everyone here has this solved ;-)

[Earl Grey]

For over a decade I rode nothing but B-17s in all its variants. Had them on all my bikes and loved them. Then I got numbness issues. Switched to a Berthoud with a cutout, which solved the problem. Found the leather a bit soft though, and found that I slid forward on the saddle because of its slight sag and thus had to point the nose up a fair bit. Tried a 3D printed Specialized Power Pro with Mirror (weirdest saddle name ever?) and like that one a lot as well. I like the textured surface that allows me to tilt the saddle forward without sliding forward on it. 

[R. Alexis]

Looks like a lot of Brooks love for B17 and C17 on here. I have an old B17 on my 1994 Bridgestone MB-1 Retro ride and newer (relatively) 2005(?) on the 1993 Bridgestone XO-1 and a C17 with cut out on the 1987 Schwinn Voyageur. The Schwinn has seen more saddle time. I really like the fit and feel. I don't do a ton of really long rides on it. Most of the rest of my bikes are sporting Wilderness Trail Bikes/WTB SST saddles. All of them are comfortable and work for me, except an OEM, take off one that is on my Schwinn High Plains Aluminum. Seems that they ran a bit narrower that the others I have. I tried other WTB offerings over the years. Silverado, Deva possibly some other model with no luck in the comfort. The Devo Pick Up, Solano, and Gravelier look interesting, if sticking to WTB. Selle Anatomica is of interest to me. 

I have ridden all both with and without padded shorts on. When I really got into riding I really had no knowledge of using padded shorts/underwear. It still sounds strange to me that folks ride in padded shorts with no underwear. I will wear padded underwear with a briefs, or sports briefs. I have on occasion rolled out on boxer briefs, but this was spur of the moment rides. 

Thanks,

Reginald Alexis

[Nick Payne]

I've been using B17 saddles for decades - still have them on a couple of bikes - but then I discovered the Berthoud Vars / Aubisque / Mente saddles, and I find them even more comfortable. Those three Berthoud saddles all have exactly the same top, but they vary in price from the titanium rail Vars, then the steel rail Aubisque, then the Mente, which also has steel rails but has the top riveted rather than bolted on, so you can't replace the top if needed, unlike with the other two.

Nick Payne

[Nick Payne]

p.s. Here's an interesting video showing the construction of Berthoud saddles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0OeHK6sVEw.

[Steven Sweedler]

Enjoyed the video, impressive machinery used, still nice to see a few steps were by hand. 

Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

On Sat, Jun 14, 2025 at 7:51 AM Nick Payne <njh...@gmail.com> wrote:

p.s. Here's an interesting video showing the construction of Berthoud saddles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0OeHK6sVEw.

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[Patrick Moore]

What is the liquid being applied by brush from about 5:00?

I enjoyed watching the deftness of the man trimming and grinding the edges of the leather with a powered jig saw and rotating tool.

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[Jay]

Curios @Nick whether you're a big guy or not?  I ask because the width of Bethoud saddles is wider than B17, and a lot wider than Berthoud model one width less in their lineup.  My C17 is 164, which seems about right.  The Berthoud Aspin is 157mm, and I tried that one years ago and liked it, but can't really remember all that well.  I'm unsure as it's narrower than C17, but a big jump from Aspin.  Thoughts?  Thanks!

[Chris Buckley]

I found the C17 to be quite uncomfortable on my sit bones, but I think that's because I didn't give it enough of a chance. I'm considering one again after putting a vintage San Marco Rolls on my road bike and finding it to be incredibly uncomfortable regardless of what I wear (i.e. bibs/no bibs). To borrow a (slightly less rude) term from the track bike community, it's a real "butt hatchet."

I've had a range of saddles, both modern and vintage and they've been at various places on the comfort spectrum, but the absolute worst was a Kashimax Five Gold that was part of a full-NJS track bike build. And it was awful. Awful, awful, awful.

I love the B17s, I find them fantastically comfortable once broken in! As Eric said, they do have a tendency towards either not being weatherproof or getting a bit gross under a waxed cotton cover (especially when that waxed cotton cover goes mouldy, erk). But the solution I found was to just keep riding them despite their shortcomings as I've found them the most comfortable saddle for just riding around in shorts.

- Chris

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[rlti...@gmail.com]

I love the B17 and C17 saddles. They work really well for me as does the Berthoud Aspin. But the saddle I have gravitated towards is the WTB Pure V saddle. The V is important. They made a WTB Pure and there was something a bit off for me. I have these on most bikes now with a few stashed away since they are no longer made.   I ride in standard shorts with no padding and the Pure V just disappears. Not too soft and not too firm.

I have found the WTB Volt to also work very well for me and those are currently available.

Robert Tilley

San Diego, CA

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On Jun 15, 2025, at 8:50 AM, 'Chris Buckley' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[Nick Payne]

On Monday, 16 June 2025 at 1:31:07 am UTC+10 Jay wrote:

Curios @Nick whether you're a big guy or not?  I ask because the width of Bethoud saddles is wider than B17, and a lot wider than Berthoud model one width less in their lineup.

I'm 5'10" and ~140lbs, so not large. However, I've always liked wide saddles. I tried a Brooks Swift (which I think is their narrowest model) about 25 years ago, and found it rather uncomfortable, whereas the wider saddles have always agreed with me. When I was racing, and didn't want the weight of a leather saddle, I used to use women's racing saddles, as they're wider than those intended for men...

Nick Payne

[Jay]

Thanks!  I'm 6'0 and 160.  Funny thing is when I measure sit bones with a bike fitter, sitting on some gel thing, they're not that wide (they tell me a 145-155mm saddle width is fine, so maybe 125mm sit bone width?, but that's when I was riding only road, with bars 5-10cm below my saddle.  My Salsa Fargo with swept back bars is completely different.  Plus, when I get some 'irritation' on the backside, I can see where the fiction is via red spots (TMI, I know) and seems a lot further apart than say 125mm.  I think the wider Berthoud might work for me, at least with the Fargo.  I would like to ride with wool underwear (seams no where near sit bones), and just some shorts/pants.  This isn't comfortable with the C17.  

[Eric Marth]

Jay — Thanks for the intensive descriptors above! I'm in humid Virginia and sweat easily. I get glued to the saddle in the summer time. 

I ride leather saddles, Brooks B17 and Berthoud Aspin. When I wear cotton shorts they get soaked through with sweat and stick to the saddle, seriously inhibiting my ability to slide around and get comfortable. I also have difficulty sliding around in nylon shorts (including Patagonia and the Rivendell MUSA shorts). 

The most comfortable for me have been 100% wool cycling shorts (Kucharik, Giordana, Sergal) or synthetic bib shorts (Ground Effect, Boure). Both are great when it's hot and humid but I prefer the bibs in the summer. They stay up better when they get soaked. 

Have you tried to lubricate? A little lubrication goes a long way. There are some cycling-specific lubes out there but for my money you can't go wrong with pure coconut oil. I get a $10 jar of organic, virgin, unrefined. Using it just for cycling, it'll last for a super long time. Inexpensive, food-grade, a little anti-microbial and you don't have to worry about the presence of any petroleum. I keep it in the house so it doesn't go to its liquid state. I scoop a dab with my fingers and rub it on my inner thighs, my butt and my chest (to prevent chafing from the bibs). Any friction points. It works really, really well!

If I'm wearing my Bedrock sandals for a ride or a long walk I'll also put some on the tops of my feet and it's a huge help in preventing sores and abrasions from my sandal straps. 

Your mileage may vary,

Eric

[Will Boericke]

I agree that this situation seems like a call for unguent of some sort.  Chamois cream, etc.  I use Eucerin because I have a giant tub that has lasted me 10 years.  It seems only necessary for me on long, hot days.  

Will

[Jay]

Eric - Thanks for the tip on coconut oil.  I have some organic all-purpose cooking oil.  Don't know this one is virgin, or unrefined (I can see the situation playing out in my head...I walk into my local healthy food store, "hi, I have some all-purpose cooking oil, but I'm looking for virgin, unrefined, do you that type", "what purpose is it for? I'm sure the all-purpose one you have is fine, no?", "well, i need to slather some on my butt, because it's hot and I don't want friction" can you imagine, lol

I have chamois butt'r and have used it for years, maybe it's time to try something new!

And back to the comedy...Eric, I think we have the makings of your next video!  Your videos are a calmness and vintage, timeliness charm to them, I'm sure you can make this work ;-)

[Eric Marth]

"Yes, we have no coconuts."

This is the stuff I use, lots of other brands out there! 

When I say "A little goes a long way" what I really mean is "this relatively simple solution can make a world of difference." When it comes to actually slathering the coconut oil... there's no reason to hold back. Seems you're well familiar given the experience with chamois butter, which I've never tried. 

[Patrick Moore]

Linking to the thread about chainsaw bar oil, perhaps this is one way to use of the 2/3 of a qt remaining after almost 10 years. (“I’ll have some for my chain and some for myself.”)