Haters Gonna Hate - for the "Cult-like Fanbase"

[velomann]

Every week, BikePortland publishes a "Monday Roundup" of bike and transportation items in the news, and this week the New Yorker article on Grant and Rivendell was featured, and received the following response (Bold print is the poster's, not mine).  For your entertainment:

"The mean-spirited regresso-grouchery (regressive retro-grouchery) of Grant Petersen and his supporters helped delay the wide-spread adoption of widely used technologies (e.g. disc brakes, carbon forks, e-bikes) that make transportation cycling* a more pleasant experience. It’s one thing to prefer a certain type of bike and a different thing altogether to constantly slam those who do not prefer your particular flavor of bike. For example, Petersen derisively referred to disc brakes as “motorcycle parts” and often described e-bikes as mopeds or motorcycles.

A real world example of how Petersen’s ideology has been harmful is that many local “steel is real” bike shops have historically refused to work on bikes with disc brakes, internal cable routing, carbon components, or e-bikes despite their popularity (and some still do).

*not racing bikes but every day transportation bikes"

I responded, of course, including a comment that I thought "Grant Suppressed Disc Brakes" would make a great bumper sticker, and that I thought they were exaggerating the influence Grant had/has on the bike industry.

the poster had more to say:

"I think the formerly wide-spread attitude of people who think like Grant Petersen delayed wide-spread adoption of disc brakes.

You must be confusing Grant with someone who actually has some kind of influence

The guy who put ****ing Bridgestone bikes on the map, has a blog that millions have read, has published widely-read books reviewed in the NYT, is a major foil of the Bike Snob, has created an enormous cult-like fanbase, and is de facto leader of a slow cycling movement has absolutely influenced the bike industry — and, more importantly, has influenced cycling fans who work in or own bike shops.

Grant Petersen has done an awful lot of amazing things that I respect but that does not mean he should get a pass for being a jerk about the bikes that many of us now ride."

Sheesh

Mike M

[Patrick Moore]

"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people."

-- H L Mencken.

Calling GP "mean spirited" and "agressive" reminds me of Christopher Hitchens referring to G K Chesterton as "sinister." There are some judgments so utterly opposed to perception that one is dumbfounded ("gobsmacked"). Let's say that GP and GKC are or were evil men with all sorts of evil qualities; still, those evil qualities were on the diametrically opposite side of the spectrum of the evil qualities raised by the writer. This is like deciding that JPMorganChase has dedicated itself to the welfare of the American consumer.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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But wouldst gabble like a thing most brutish,

I endowed thy purposes with words that made them known.

[Cyclofiend Jim]

I'm not sure of the purpose of this post. To my eye, it shows off the worst aspects of the internet. The reason I continue to be a part of this group is to move away from stuff like that. 

I don't particularly feel that this has added any entertainment value to our group discussion and I feel like I need a shower after reading this poster's comments. 

My suggestion is that we pedal on and let stuff like this drift downstream.

Jim

[Bob Walicki]

Disc brakes are probably at the top of the list of things in which I disagree with Grant. Living where I live and riding where I ride, I sometimes thank the heavens for disc brakes. But that doesn't mean I want them on all my bikes, and yet, here we are, in a timeline where it is the only option for 99% of bike buyers who aren't even aware these days that there might be other options, it seems.

The bumper sticker idea is hilarious and extremely on the nose. Grant (such a jerk!) has done a *phenomenal* job of "delaying wide-spread adoption of disc brakes"... 

so silly. What an odd, an ungenerous "take" on GP's legacy.

[Matt B.]

"often described e-bikes as mopeds"

i mean, that's what they are... is an electric automobile not a car?

[Johnny Alien]

I believe there are different degrees of ebikes. Some are just an electronic assist.

[Mackenzy Albright]

This conversation got a bit interesting in thr CR Google group - my general consensus is that in the entire industry of obsolescence Grant is the only one fighting the fight for bikes that will be rideable 15+ years after their manufacture. Especially with electronic and carbon parts we will see less and less compatibility and more one time use. I think him advocating to the average individual that performance can look like a bike that it simple, elegant, high quality, and can last a lifetime. 

There are some companies following trend a bit like crust. I bought my romanceur as a low trail disc brake Atlantis alternative. Though I realized I am just not that fond of disc brakes and the required additional stiffening of everything to compensate for the flex. 

Grant isn't forcing anyone to adhere to his opinions - but he is having to dig his heels in yo advocate amongst a trend and profit driven industry that is racing biased and people take this fo being adversarial. I'd strongly argue that steel bikes, lugs, 650b, wheel sizes for different sizes, and fat tire road bikes. That in my opinion means every gravel bike owes a nod to grants innovation and steadfastness or we'd all still be riding pizza cutters. 

[Teague Scott]

Just want to point out that since releasing the Romanceur, Lightning Bolt, and (pretty sure) Nor' Easter models, originally disc-only framesets, Crust has subsequently offered each in a rim-brake flavor as well. Cough cough, sounds like some trend-following to me ;)

[Mathias Steiner]

I think it's funny, and it's brightened my day a little. All the vitriol.

Grant has said some things that I find ill-advised -- like referring to padded shorts as 'diaper pads.' That's kind of eighth-grade, plus there are folks who ride more comfortably with than without bike shorts. I'm one of them, once I go beyond an hour or so.

As far as disc brakes, I never owned any until I bought a trike that had mechanical Tektros. After I moved that bike along, I had a better understanding of discs, but I never bought another and don't plan to. A good solution, but I'm not sure it has a corresponding problem. Everyone else can do what they please, up to and including bike store mechanics. But GP is handy for apportioning blame, so let's hope this was helpful to the original complainant :)

At least Grant gets credit for putting his money where his mouth is and producing -- or causing to be produced -- parts that would be obsolete otherwise.

I prefer clicky shifters over friction but I love having the option to switch. I've started hoarding 8- and 9-speed STI compatible bar-ends. Too bad Grant isn't adopting those as a cause.

Now if he'd only  allow his disciples to work on modern bikes...

[Andrew Scherer]

"

A real world example of how Petersen’s ideology has been harmful is that many local “steel is real” bike shops have historically refused to work on bikes with disc brakes, internal cable routing, carbon components, or e-bikes despite their popularity (and some still do)."

I hope the author doesn't expect to be served Penne alla Vodka at a Thai restaurant.

[Brian Turner]

Yeah, show me all these bike shops who are refusing to work on disc brakes or internally routed carbon frames because they’ve been so indoctrinated by Grant. I think the quoted guy is full of it.

Brian

Lex KY

On Sep 25, 2024, at 4:59 PM, Andrew Scherer <andy.s...@gmail.com> wrote:

"A real world example of how Petersen’s ideology has been harmful is that many local “steel is real” bike shops have historically refused to work on bikes with disc brakes, internal cable routing, carbon components, or e-bikes despite their popularity (and some still do)."

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[John Dewey]

Eventually the newbies—dressed up like the Pro Tour guys with their
white shoes and long, just-below-the-knee white socks—will grab on to
the next craze and we'll have the roads to ourselves again.

As it is, I rather enjoy riding my 40 year-old Waterford Schwinn
Paramount with the carbons. Somehow the bulky 23 pounder
seems to find pace despite its 7-speed drivetrain and DT levers. Quite
to my delight and astonishment, I'm occasionally asked to explain what
they are and how they work. And because I'm mostly polite I don't
smart off with some kind of wise-ass response.

It is true that those $16,000 wonder bikes are entirely disposable.
Cynically, they're probably designed to last about as long as many of
their owners remain engaged before they move on to the next
thing...whatever that might be. F1 drivers I suppose.

And good for those Crust folks. Delightful to hear that they're
confident and sensible enough to trust their forecasting. That's good
news for sure.

Jock

BTW, how in the world do they keep those shoes clean? These are the
kinds of questions that keep me up at night.

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[Patrick Moore]

On Wed, Sep 25, 2024 at 4:14 PM John Dewey <john...@gmail.com> wrote:

... As it is, I rather enjoy riding my 40 year-old Waterford Schwinn Paramount with the carbons. Somehow the bulky 23 pounder seems to find pace despite its 7-speed drivetrain and DT levers. Quite to my delight and astonishment, I'm occasionally asked to explain what they are and how they work. And because I'm mostly polite I don't smart off with some kind of wise-ass response.

I have to laugh when I hear that "serious" riders have never heard of dt shifters. But then how many RBW-listers have heard of single-tube tires, or the real "clincher" tire?

It is true that those $16,000 wonder bikes are entirely disposable. Cynically, they're probably designed to last about as long as many of their owners remain engaged before they move on to the next thing...whatever that might be. F1 drivers I suppose.

Is this true? Are top-end, pro-level (or perhaps top-end consumer "wannabee" level) carbon fiber frames really good for only a few years before they become unsafe? (We'll leave out of the equation the length of the owners' interest.)

I have no bias against carbon fiber as such; I assume crabon fibre' -- as BSNYC likes to call it -- can be built sensibly into a durable, long-term frame and still possess its specific advantages such as fine-tuning of ride qualities and  a better strength-to-weight ratio. Is my assumption correct or false?

Recently, on the CR list, a senior list member -- not only senior in age but senior in experience; this man was the top designer for a or some big brand/s back in the steel-is-real days, worked with pros, and he knows his stuff -- scoffed at the idea that CR-period (up to 1986 I think) steel with CR-period components could compete at pro levels with modern CF frames and modern components. There's weight, but as to drivetrains, he said  that nowadays cadences are higher and riders generate more power this way, and that this pedaling style requires much finer tuning of gearing, which modern 11-12-13-speed drivetrains and "insta-shift" systems allow. And hydraulic discs allow later-in-bend braking, while 15 lb bikes make climbing faster. Now this is at pro levels of performance which have nothing to do with us mere plodders, but if he is right, modern cf, disc brake, electric-shift, etc etc bikes really do add performance at the highest levels of performance.

[Aside: It is fun to watch pros in the early multispeed era: leaving out differences in riding position, they twiddle at amazing cadences on the flats and esp in the sprints -- modern riders often stand to sprint! -- but, on steep cols they are grunting the pedals over at 30 rpm helped out by dramatic body english and agonized facial expressions Worth Googling.]

Me, I had a lovely ride just now on a Rivendell that makes current 2X1 Roadunos look like technological excess: single 76" fixed gear (I have not yet used the 19 t cog on the 17/19 Dingle) with single front single pivot caliper brake; really the most delightful bike of the scores I've owned. I've hedged my future -- 70 in 6 months -- with a couple of fixed 2-speed IGHs, but so far, I have barely used them - fixed, single is just perfect.

[John Dewey]

Patrick, I suspect we can—and therefore probably shouldn't—go on and on. My bad.

To the data point, my employer and pal at Waterford Precision
Cycles—Richard S—acknowledged he had never encountered a steel frame
failure due to rust.

Jock

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[David Ross]

I read all of Grants stuff. Some of it I agree with a lot and some things I take with a grain of salt. I sort of love riding everything as long as it’s decently comfortable. The exception to that is carbon as I don’t understand enough about it and it makes me nervous. I also don’t need it as I’m a 15mph guy and not a 20+mph guy. I would say that I probably fell in love with my Gus as quickly as I’ve ever fallen in love with a bike since I was a kid, and I’ve owned a lot of bikes. I still wish it had disc brakes, but honestly, it’s all good. I sure am thankful Riv and Crust and a few other companies are still offering stuff I want to own. It’s weird to walk into a bike shop these days and honestly not want a single solitary thing they have for sale except for Rock N Roll lube or a tire lever. 

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[Steven Sweedler]

One of the riders in our weekly ride had an Aegis carbon frame that he rode as his main ride for about 20 years. I just looked up the company, they have a lifetime guarantee,  and make all their frames in house in the USA, so all carbon is not throwaway after a few seasons. 

Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

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[ascpgh]

+1 for this gem:

"It’s weird to walk into a
bike shop these days and honestly not want a single solitary thing they
have for sale except for Rock N Roll lube or a tire lever."

As a person with legs longer than my height dictates in production geometry and poorly fits most manufactured bikes I appreciated many of Grant's bullet points. I was a Bridgestone dealer because of those before I was a  Rivendell customer. 

The thing about anyone notable in their particular subject matter is that if they were agreeable across the board they would probably not be notable. As PT Barnum said, "Without promotion, something terrible happens...nothing".

Having learned about what was necessary to fit me for a more comfortable bike that I ride where I ride, for the reasons I ride, when I decided to build a new bike I took gems from many sources including being able to meet and interact with the builder to appreciate their process ad know they had similar respect for my needs. Part of that is not to be attired so that the only place I could go comfortably is home at the end of a loop ride.

An under square (top tube < seat tube) frame fits me. No amount of "custom" paint and components can equal dimensions appropriate for my reality. Grant nailed that need after my description of riding experiences on my RB-1, XO-2 and MB-0, strongly suggesting the Rambouillet over the long line for a custom.

Drop $17K  on a Trek Madone SL R 9AXS Gen 8 or S-Works Tarmac SL8 LTD and you get a frame produced from a mold. The same mold every other consumer of that model gets (yes, there are varied materials and layups but not geometry). I presume they know who is buying these and instant gratification weighs higher than long learned values of cycling accumulated through thousands of miles of riding and experiences, good and bad, along the way.

What I got for steel custom was engagement with THE person making the frame, fork, stem, front rack and decaleur. He watched video of me riding my Rambouillet (and rack bait commuter) and took measurements to synthesize the good and blend it with my intention distilled from any Walter Mitty-ism on either of our part in the process. All that for what prices a mid level CFRP box bike costs.

Any pursuit and participation can get so refined that fun has been left behind or worse, the price tag excludes those who could really use them at their highest potential. I'll be glad when the bicycle industry returns to being centered on bicyclists not the extremes of performance and racing. I still laugh and appreciate the huge irony when I see an aero CFRP framed road bike with deep section low spoke count wheels driven to rides in the bed of a detailed clean bro-dozer pickup truck.  And old men in brand new Porsche 911s.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[DJC]

I recently left the bike industry after managing a shop for several years. For those who have not built or serviced a fully-integrated, race ready carbon bike should tread lightly before they criticize shops that don't want to work on them. First, to properly assemble that type of bike the level of knowledge is way beyond many shops; we have on numerous occasions fixed customer's bikes that incorrectly assembled or serviced. Furthermore nothing is standard, each brand has erected a proprietary wall and you can only order replacement parts for the bike if you're a dealer. Second, disc brakes have there place, but not on everything and certainly not on comfort hybrids - seriously, hydraulic disc brakes on a Trek Verve? Cheap linear pull brakes are more that adequate for that category. I've had three bikes with disc brakes, but they had either Paul Klampers or Growtac mechanical brakes -- they were outstanding -- no need for hydraulic. But, for my style of riding and needs they're unnecessary.

Now on to e-bikes: we only serviced brands we sold. The majority e-bikes are white label atrocities sold through Amazon or a direct-to-consumer website. There is not tech support, diagnostics, or parts. Many of these bikes slip into the country under a trade exemption called de Minimus, which allows products under certain value ($700 wholesale bikes) to enter the country without meeting CPSC or UL certification standards. Not a bright idea when applied to a poorly built lithium ion (bombs). Servicing this garbage is bad business. If I wanted to work on mopeds, I would be in the scooter business.

Rivendell, Crust, Velo Oranges et al., are a breath of fresh air in an otherwise boring and cluttered landscape over-engineered, poorly conceived bikes. I'm eternally grateful to Peterson for staying true to his values and building beautiful, durable bikes that will be desirable 30 years from now. I personally loathe planned obsolescence and marketing trends. If the customer wants a big brand bike go for it, but I won't be the one selling or servicing it.

"Just Ride"

Dave

[Patrick Moore]

Changing the subject header: 

On Thu, Sep 26, 2024 at 7:13 AM ascpgh <asc...@gmail.com> wrote:

+1 for this gem: "It’s weird to walk into a bike shop these days and honestly not want a single solitary thing they have for sale except for Rock N Roll lube or a tire lever."

 

Yes, 90% of the products in a modern bike shop don't interest me, but I'm glad they'll still hand-build a custom wheel -- tho' man, this is getting expensive: about $650 for rims, spokes and build, I supply hubs, no tires.

... I'll be glad when the bicycle industry returns to being centered on bicyclists not the extremes of performance and racing. I still laugh and appreciate the huge irony when I see an aero CFRP framed road bike with deep section low spoke count wheels driven to rides in the bed of a detailed clean bro-dozer pickup truck.  And old men in brand new Porsche 911s.

It might well be electric motorcycles. I stopped into the Westside Fat Tire Bicycles yesterday and more and more floor space is being given to things that look like motorcycles -- they're a lot bigger than Honda 50s. They have pedals but with such wide Qs they can't be meant for pedaling. At this point I rather think of carbon fiber roadies with nostalgia.

[John Dewey]

Presumably, Patrick, these post-apocalyptic monstrosities help keep bike shops afloat. What a bizarre twist of fate. Shop owners say they need this income to stay afloat. Pharmacies maybe ought to start selling crack to grade schoolers for similar reasons. 

In my neighborhood these electric motorcycles terrorize the streets and clog the bike paths. Three abreast, Red Bull in hand, all decked out in black rather like motorcycle gangs channeling Marlon Brando. At least motorcycle engines make noise, you can hear them and get out the way. These things blow by unannounced at 30 mph dead silent save for the whine of the motor and the kid’s whelping. 

Shame on the bike shops for supporting the culture. Plenty of good shops thrive without this income. Shame shame shame. 

I fear I’m repeating myself, sorry about that. 

Jock

. 

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[Paul Choi]

The Rivendell tribe is something that most people just don't get. Many people just don't know anything about what stirs the soul. Let's not get distracted by folks who don't get it. 

Enjoy the bikes, build up the community and maybe once in a while you can share the joy of riding a Rivendell with someone who doesn't get it yet.

[Eric Floden]

I kind of like reading this from time to time:

https://surlybikes.com/blog/some_answers_to_just_about_any_bike_forum_post_ive_ever_read

If you think your bike looks good, it does.

If you like the way your bike rides, it’s an awesome bike.

You don’t need to spend a million dollars to have a great bike, but if you do spend a million dollars and know what you want you’ll probably also have a great bike.

Yes, you can tour on your bike – whatever it is.

Yes, you can race on your bike – whatever it is.

Yes, you can commute on your bike – whatever it is.

26” wheels or 29” or 650b or 700c or 24” or 20” or whatever – yes, that wheel size is rad and you’ll probably get where you’re going.

Disc brakes, cantis, v-brakes, and road calipers all do a great job of stopping a bike when they’re working and adjusted.

No paint job makes everyone happy.

Yes, you can put a rack on that. Get some p-clamps if there are no mounts.

Steel is a great material for making bike frames - so is aluminum, carbon fiber, and titanium.

You can have your saddle at whatever angle makes you happy.

Your handlebars can be lower than your saddle, even with your saddle, or higher than your saddle. Whichever way you like it is right.

Being shuttled up a downhill run does not make you a weak person, nor does choosing not to fly off of a 10 foot drop.

Bike frames made overseas can be super cool. Bike frames made in the USA can be super cool.

Hey, tattooed and pierced long shorts wearin flat brim hat red bull drinkin white Oakley sportin rad person on your full suspension big hit bike – nice work out there.

Hey, little round glasses pocket protector collared shirt skid lid rear view mirror sandal wearing schwalbe marathon running pletscher two-leg kickstand tourist – good job.

Hey, shaved leg skinny as hell super duper tan line hear rate monitor checking power tap train in the basement all winter super loud lycra kit million dollar wheels racer – keep it up.

The more you ride your bike, the less your ass will hurt.

The following short answers are good answers, but not the only ones for the question asked – 29”, Brooks, lugged, disc brake, steel, Campagnolo, helmet, custom, Rohloff, NJS, carbon, 31.8, clipless, porteur.

No bike does everything perfectly. In fact, no bike does anything until someone gets on it to ride.

Sometimes, recumbent bikes are ok.

Your bikeshop is not trying to screw you. They’re trying to stay open.

Buying things off of the internet is great, except when it sucks.

Some people know more about bikes than you do. Other people know less.

Maybe the person you waved at while you were out riding didn’t see you wave at them.

It sucks to be harassed by assholes in cars while you’re on a bike. It also sucks to drive behind assholes on bikes.

Did you build that yourself? Awesome. Did you buy that? Cool.

Wheelies are the best trick ever invented. That’s just a fact.

Which is better, riding long miles, or hanging out under a bridge doing tricks? Yes.

Yes, you can break your collar bone riding a bike like that.

Stopping at stop signs is probably a good idea.

Driving with your bikes on top of your car to get to a dirt trail isn’t ideal, but for most people it’s necessary.

If your bike has couplers, or if you have a spendy bike case, or if you pay a shop to pack your bike, or if you have a folding bike, shipping a bike is still a pain in the ass for everyone involved.

That dent in your frame is probably ok, but maybe it’s not. You should get it looked at.

Touch up paint always looks like shit. Often it looks worse than the scratch.

A pristine bike free of dirt, scratches, and wear marks makes me sort of sad.

A bike that’s been chained to the same tree for three years caked with rust and missing parts makes me sad too.

Bikes purchased at Wal-mart, Target, Costco, or K-mart are generally not the best bang for your buck.

Toe overlap is not the end of the world, unless you crash and die – then it is.

Sometimes parts break. Sometimes you crash. Sometimes it’s your fault.

Yes, you can buy a bike without riding it first. It would be nice to ride it first, but it’s not a deal breaker not to.

Ownership of a truing stand does not a wheel builder make.

32 spokes, 48 spokes, 24 spokes, three spokes? Sure.

Single speed bikes are rad. Bikes with derailleurs and cassettes are sexy. Belt drive internal gear bikes work great too.

Columbus, TruTemper, Reynolds, Ishiwata, or no brand? I’d ride it.

Tubeless tires are pretty cool. So are tubes.

The moral of RAGBRAI is that families and drunken boobs can have fun on the same route, just maybe at different times of day.

Riding by yourself kicks ass. You might also try riding with a group.

Really fast people are frustrating, but they make you faster. When you get faster, you might frustrate someone else.

Stopping can be as much fun as riding.

Lots of people worked their asses off to build whatever trail or road or alley you’re riding on. You should thank them.

[Ryan]

Eric...thanks for the reminder...I like reading it from time-to-time too

[Patrick Moore]

Eban Weiss writes a typically sober, closely reasoned, and emotionally detached analysis of the buzz generated by the NY article in today's BSNYC post: https://bikesnobnyc.com/2024/09/26/thems-the-brakes/

(Reading the commentator's remarks once again, I am once more struck by the amount of dumbness floating around in the comment-sphere.)

[Patrick Moore]

Sorry, last one today on this, but could not resist:

"...vengeful wool- and sandal-clad lugged steel cultists."

"Either this commenter is an expert troll or he has a low-normal brain..."