Cliffhanger Squeal

[John Rinker]

Good evening,

I seem to remember some discussion from a while back about how Cliffhanger rims don't seem to play well with KoolStop salmon pads. It seems the dual compound pads are preferred. Am I remembering this correctly?

I've got a wheel set of Cliffhanger rims with un-machined sidewalls the run between some Avid v-brakes with salmon pads. Despite clean rims and a proper toe-in - perhaps too generous - the rims will often squeal like banshees.

Any thoughts on how the banshees might be vanquished (silver bullet? stake through the heart? Avada Kedavra?) would be appreciated.

I use the KoolStop smooth-post salmon pads with my Paul Neo-retros on my Atlantis without issue, but these are with Dyad un-machined rims.

Cheers, John

[Bill Lindsay]

For me, the answer was Kool Stop Black. For me, always try salmon first, but don't be scared to try something else next.

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[John Rinker]

Thanks Bill. I'll throw some black compound in there and look forward to the silence.

Cheers, John

[Ryan Frahm]

Hey John! I used the duel compound on my Cliffhanger’s and had no squeal so I wouldn’t hesitate to use those again either,

[John Rinker]

Hey Ryan, Thanks for the further info. I'll try the dual compound as things get wetter up here in BC. Now I'm wondering if it's something in the nature of non-machined rims and the softer compound of the salmon pads that makes them 'sing'?

Cheers, John

[Brian Turner]

I ordered machined Cliffhangers for my Gus, and am using Paul Motolites with the standard Paul-supplied Kool Stop salmons. No squealing whatsoever. Probably due to the machined sidewall, but also bc I’m very meticulous about getting a proper toe-in on my pads.

-Brian

Lexington KY 

On Jun 28, 2024, at 7:26 PM, John Rinker <jwri...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hey Ryan, Thanks for the further info. I'll try the dual compound as things get wetter up here in BC. Now I'm wondering if it's something in the nature of non-machined rims and the softer compound of the salmon pads that makes them 'sing'?

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[John Rinker]

Thanks Brian! I would enjoy reading your process for 'very meticulous(ly) getting a proper toe-in'. 

Would that be a typical difference between machined and non-machined rims- the singing? 

Cheers, John

[Hoch in ut]

How long have you had the brakes on the bike? Sometimes, it just takes several rides to break them in. 

I’d also check the brakes themselves. Make sure there is no play.Opd v brake arms could have too much play.  The culprit could be the pad holders as well. 

[Brian Turner]

John, I probably should've used different wording. Dilligent instead of "meticulous" is probably more appropriate. Meaning, I check to make sure my brake pads are toed in quite often, even if they are silent. Sometimes they won't squeal, but you can feel a slight chatter or vibration feel in the brakes on a long descent, and I find it good to check the toe-in when that happens. My method is the standard use of a coin between the rear end of the pads and the braking surface to set the toe-in. However, I find with quality pads like Kool Stop salmons, especially when paired with strong brakes like Pauls, I give the pads a bit more toe-in angle, so I use a nickels instead of say, a dime. Another thing I like to use regularly with machined sidewalls is a Mavic rim cleaning stone.

Brian

Lexington KY

[Josh C]

A proper toe-in setup often solves this problem. Sometimes a more aggressive angle than you might be used to for the first couple rides may help. 

[John Rinker]

Thanks for your input Hoch. The pads are several months on the bike, and everything is solid as can be in the brake arms. The pads are very slightly loose in the pad holders though.

Hey Brian, Thanks for your explanation. I've just put a nickle's worth of space in the pads and still quite a squeal. Perhaps I'll take Josh C's suggestion and put a $1.25 worth of space between pad and rim! ;)

Cheers, John

[Hoch in ut]

The way I understand it, brake squeal happens when the pads grab the rim, reach max coef of friction (after they slip forward microscopically in the pad holder or due to brake arm play) then slip/spring back. The rapid, tiny movements back and forth cause the noise. 

I’m wondering if holder less pads would work better in this regard. 

https://a.co/d/0fmE8IZP

[Garth]

Short, centered pads are also helpful, like Kool-stop City pad, for example. It's only 46mm long. I never thought making pads 73mm long and offset was of any actual benefit. more of a nuisance really as they prevent the arms from opening all the way as they're supposed to. A common argument assumes a longer pad is better in rain or mud, but that's nonsensical. That would render road and cross bikes that use standard(road) size pads inferior, and that's not the case. I keep my rims and pads clean with common window cleaner.

https://koolstop.com/products/city-threaded