Rivendell children's bike

[Patrick Moore]

I was glad to see a new Blahg: https://www.rivbike.com/blogs/grant-petersens-blog/augus-blahg 

There otta be a law that Grant has to produce these at least twice monthly -- it's my second-favorite bicycling screed after Bike Snob.

I would have bought a child's bike, even at $900, particularly at the 2010 dollar equivalent, for my daughter if Rivendell had made them when she was a child.

With very sloping top tube, a stem with long quill, and reachback bar you could probably get 6 years growth of of the bike, say age 6 to 12. Before that, kiddie bikes, after that, multigeared bikes or move on to the iPhone.

After 3 kiddie 3- and 2-wheelers I bought my daughter an Electra Townie 3i* with coaster brake and 3 speed Shimano hub for her 10th birthday; she loved it and the even-slacker-than-Rivendell feet-forward geometry let me at 5' 10 " ride it comfortably after raising the saddle. That was a well designed bike -- well designed for its market.

* That "i." One is gobsmacked (lovely word) by the absolute lack of honest in marketing. This monicker was obviously meant (this was 2011) to pull buyers' emotions to feelings  of "internet/digital/modern/advanced/praiseworthy" and get them slavering to hand over $$. But it was a well designed and well built bike for the demo and price point.

Does anyone know who is trying to legally ban coaster brakes, and what their alternative is that they hope to sell in the place of coaster brakes?

https://youtu.be/k-tizOwQhMA?t=186

Patrick "Ho Hi, Ho Hi" in ABQ, NM

--

Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Executive resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, letters, and other writing services

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When thou didst not, savage, know thine own meaning,

But wouldst gabble like a thing most brutish,

I endowed thy purposes with words that made them known.

[Nick Shoemaker]

I’m intrigued by this too, but a little puzzled by the coaster brake - can anyone fill me in on the logic of choosing that over hand brakes for a kids bike? My 4yo is riding a Woom 3 and I feel like the lack of a coaster brake has made for an easier transition on the type of riding available to us (easy singletrack, pump tracks, and greenways). I’m definitely onboard with a RivKid offering after seeing the inevitable latest “evolution” of Woom: $750, blacked-out, and be-disc’d…

https://woom.com/en_US/explore-kids-bikes

[Mackenzy Albright]

I have no logic for coaster brakes - but from day one of learning to ride I loved skids and doing skid whips and spraying gravel all over. I went through so many tires. I needed to get so many pebbles picked out of my hands and knees almost weekly. As an adult I've wanted to build a coaster mtb for a long while - but it's always bottom of my list. 

Handbrakes are fine though. I am guessing the coaster build is somewhat related to nostalgia. 

[Patrick Moore]

Others' opinions about coaster brakes for very small children?

I'm open, but I wonder if most 4 to 7 year olds have the hand strength to safely operate hand brakes, especially when these are designed for human hands?

I look back at my own childhood and I don't recall that the coaster brakes on my 20" (age 6) and 24" (age 7 or 8 to 11, when I got my first hand brakes: rod operated!)  Schwinn cruisers with rear wheel coaster brakes only ever put me in danger, and I do very much recall the pleasure of long, sweeping skid stops: accelerate hard on a dirt or gravel surface, then stomp hard on the coaster brake as you make a wide, dramatic swerve up to your stopping point.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/b92a654c-71c8-480a-a5ec-a86a86b951e4n%40googlegroups.com.

[Brian Forsee]

Mackenzy,

As an adult who recently built himself a coaster mtb I will tell you its a hoot and I highly recommend it. Certainly not logical but very fun.

Brian

[Patrick Moore]

What, as opposed to octopus hands? I meant, "as opposed to adult hands.

On Tue, Sep 17, 2024 at 11:04 AM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

... I wonder if most 4 to 7 year olds have the hand strength to safely operate hand brakes, especially when these are designed for human hands?

[Eric Daume]

Conventional wisdom says kids don't have enough hand strength for hand brakes. 

In fact, the CPSC requires kids bikes to have a coaster brake (they can't be hand brake only).

Eric

--

[Joe Kisley]

Brian,

Love the 1 x 1!!!! I have an ECR that was set up like that. Super fun and capable. Coaster brakes are fine by me. 

Joe "Wireless Shifting Advocate" from Iowa 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/jKlHuicm0rg/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/CALuTfgv-p__BRg4WXTOPyZDzwMjx4yY8rh3-_iQ8jmkR1DDxNw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Nick Shoemaker]

Seems like it is size-dependent:

"This line of reasoning has been so prevalent that the US Consumer Product Safety Commission legally requires all US bike companies to manufacture new “sidewalk” bikes with a coaster brake. A "sidewalk" bike is deemed as a bicycle with a maximum seat height of 25" or less. Since our woom 1 has no pedals, and the woom 3 [16" wheels] is big enough to be excluded from this legal provision, the woom 2 [ (with a 19.1" max seat height) is the only bike in our line-up affected by this law."

[https://woom.com/en_US/freewheel-vs-coaster-brakes-explained]

I am also curious if anyone has the context around Grant's comment about some entity trying to make them illegal?

I also really want these to get built and would likely buy one even if I had to swap out the wheel & add brakes...and we're right at ~1.5 years until my oldest will be ready for a 20-incher...pretty-please, fingers crossed, etc!

[Matt Walker]

Article is worth a read- but an excerpt is here: 

"Why [no coaster]? When learning to pedal, kids (and adults!) naturally pedal backwards at times.  With a coaster brake, the backward pedaling motion quickly activates the brakes, creating an unexpected stop. In addition to losing all the momentum they gained, kids may not be prepared to stop and often fall as a result."

On Tue, Sep 17, 2024 at 2:40 PM Matt Walker <matti...@gmail.com> wrote:

Handbrakes are superior to coaster for kids-- Two Wheeling Tots convinced me years ago: https://www.twowheelingtots.com/coaster-brake-vs-hand-brakes/

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/CAHFNW5DH23FT-9X1kjC1TjGhaGZ1fZ9YCNOtiktCq_P0KY6KrA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Ted Durant]

On Tuesday, September 17, 2024 at 1:07:16 PM UTC-5 Eric Daume wrote:

Conventional wisdom says kids don't have enough hand strength for hand brakes. 

In fact, the CPSC requires kids bikes to have a coaster brake (they can't be hand brake only).

 My now-4-year-old grandson begs to differ. For his third birthday we gave him a Woom balance bike. The brakes on the Woom are easily managed and adjustable. We ended up adjusting the front brake so it had less stopping power, for fairly obvious reasons. This year, for his fourth birthday, we gave him the next size up Woom with pedals. He already had balance, steering, coasting, and braking figured out, so just needed to learn how to pedal. He didn't have any other pedal toys, so it actually took him a bit of time to learn to pedal, especially getting going from a stop. If it had a coaster brake I think it would have ruined him. Within two days he was riding laps around the neighborhood, uphill and down, able to skid to a stop if needed. It even has a 2-speed automatic hub. It didn't take him long to find 2nd gear :-) 

The CPSC rule is horribly out of date. It was written when caliper brakes, especially those used on childrens' bikes, were crap and couldn't stop the bike even with an adult's hand strength. The v-brakes and matched levers on the Woom are easily managed by tiny hands.

Ted Durant

Milwaukee WI USA

[Mackenzy Albright]

Brian, the build is absolutely on point - thank you for sharing. That is absolutely the coaster bike of my dream in every detail. I owned a surly 1x1 back in the day and to this day one of my bikes with the fondest memories. I always keep my eye out for one to build - but find them quite elusive in Canada. I got a custom marino built a few years back but I deviated from the geometry and it was just a bit too wonky for me. 

[Johnny Alien]

This is a tough market because there are just tons of great bike store level kids bikes out there for really low dollars. I had a Trek kids bike that we sold on marketplace a few years back for $40 because its just a flooded market. Spending hundred on an adult bike that will last is one thing but spending the same just to have your kid ride a Riv bike that will be unusable for them in a short time is a tough pill to swallow. On top of that I think its much better to recycle and reuse vs make new products. I understand the motivation but its not a path I would go down if I owned the company.

[Mackenzy Albright]

I am guessing Grant is doing a run of these as it appears he has a young - soon to be cyclist age kid in his life. I can respect going through waaaay too much effort to do a small run of kids bikes as a niche for fun. (especially now with Bluelug carrying a lot of weight has a greater market with deep pockets and visibility) I can't imaging (like the rosco-bebe) it'll be more than a single run bike. Hopefully it's like an expensive handmade crib where it get's passed around the community and generations. 

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Matt, for citing the text. I had to laugh though: THIS JUST IN!! COASTER BRAKES ARE DANGEROUS!! IMMEDIATELY CEASE USE AND BURN ON BONFIRE!!!

As just one of the dozens of generations of small children learning to ride on coaster braked bikes (but *) I think someone was thinking about things far, far too hard. And there's more! Can you imagine bike-clueless parents teaching wildly uncoordinated children how to safely use caliper brakes?? "Now Junior or Missy, remember that your rear brake is activated by the right lever but that your left lever activates the front brake which does 80% of the braking. Got that, Junior/Missy?"

[Patrick Moore]

I just read Ted's post. I retract the second part, maybe -- instance is not a statistic -- but not the first part of my assertion!

[Ted Durant]

On Sep 18, 2024, at 3:29 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

I just read Ted's post. I retract the second part, maybe -- instance is not a statistic -- but not the first part of my assertion!

… As just one of the dozens of generations of small children learning to ride on coaster braked bikes (but *) I think someone was thinking about things far, far too hard. And there’s more! Can you imagine bike-clueless parents teaching wildly uncoordinated children how to safely use caliper brakes?? "Now Junior or Missy, remember that your rear brake is activated by the right lever but that your left lever activates the front brake which does 80% of the braking. Got that, Junior/Missy?”

As I noted, we adjusted the front brake so that it didn’t provide much power, just for that reason. We did that on the balance bike, and on the pedal bike we didn’t feel we needed to depower it as much because he had internalized well the difference between the left brake and the right brake. Woom helpfully colors the levers differently, so you don’t coach them on front/rear or left/right, it’s just green and black. The rear lever is green, so you just coach them to use the green one to start, then when they really get moving you teach them about straight line braking with both brakes. 

I don’t think coaster brakes are dangerous at kid-bike speeds and weights. I didn’t have any trouble learning to use the one on the solid-tired bike I inherited from my older brother 57 years ago. But eventually hand-operated brakes will have to be learned, and I see value in separating the braking function from the pedaling function. Also, I don’t think most children are wildly uncoordinated, just unskilled. The vast majority of children acquire physical skills very quickly with a bit of repetition and a few mistakes, er, learning opportunities. My grandson only needed to grab the black brake lever hard once to learn to be careful of that one, and at the speed he was going the consequences were scary but not physically damaging.

[Patrick Moore]

You've convinced me that hand brakes aren't hard for beginning children cyclists; I suppose if a child is old enough and coordinated enough to backpedal to stop he or she can grab a lever.

One advantage of coaster brakes is that they're generally set and forget. As long as the chain is not hugely loose they'll work as well as day 1 after months and even years of neglect. Calipers, OTOH: most parents will buy Target or Costco children's bikes. I've spent much time making the calipers or V brakes or cantilevers on inexpensive bikes work minimally well; just did that a few weeks ago for the front brake on the bike belonging to the 11 year old son of a friend; the brake was -- again -- useless. The rear was not much better but at least it didn't get worse. This after I'd done a complete brake cable and housing refit and full adjustment 6 or 8 months ago.

I guess my only real points are: coaster brakes are not harmful, and they do have their advantages.

Me, I learned to ride age 4 -- 65 years ago -- on a brakeless fixie; no kidding. I have distinct memories of the rather intimidating blonde sisters next door (they might have been 9 and 11) teaching me to ride a tiny, rust-red 12"-or-so-wheel bike with solid spokes and hard rubber tires and -- again, I have distinct memories from even so long ago for bike stuff -- no coasting. They -- probably gleefully -- perched me on it and pushed me off down our sloping driveway into the street. Very short driveway, very quiet residential street.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/5B0067DF-2B26-4FE6-8DBF-C997192F33CE%40gmail.com.

[Ryan]

Wow Patrick that's some origin story....goes a long way towards explaining your propensity for fixed gear bikes

[Pancake]

Passionately home they make the Rosco Kid Bike! But it needs V-brakes!

I’ve been looking for another used Woom 4 (20” tires) or 5 (24” wheels) as my daughter grows up, but they’re terribly pricy new or used. 

The Wooms wisely has V-brakes and hand brakes front and rear. Learning hand braking is both a valuable skill and a safer, more effective way for kids as young as three to ride. 

The advantage of the v-brakes also allow for the easy install of a Sunlite front rack - that would solve where to put a water bottle or lunch box for their ride to school, tackle box for their fishing ride to the pond.

There are highly adjustable reach for v-brake levers too - like on the Woom getting the lever close to the hand grip makes it easy for short fingers to reach the brake quickly. 

As I live only 30 minutes from Walnut Creek I volunteered daughters as prototype test riders! Let me spend $450 at Riv instead of Woom!

Abe “the kids are too big for the Rosco Baby Bike now” in Napa 

[Abe Gardner]

I was contacted about this post by “Tom River” from moima...@gmail.com. 

It appears to be a sketchy account with no prior posts on our list and offering to sell an adult bike for my daughter. If anyone knows this person and can vouch for them that’d be great, but otherwise I think others should be aware of a possible scam:

This is certainly not a kids bike they’re offering to seem me for $420 and asking for contact “ASAP”:

Abe

On Sep 20, 2024, at 9:53 AM, Pancake <abe.g...@gmail.com> wrote:

Passionately home they make the Rosco Kid Bike! But it needs V-brakes!

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/jKlHuicm0rg/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/3b242eb0-c38e-48fb-8c41-e006f7683ac2n%40googlegroups.com.

[Bill Lindsay]

"I am also curious if anyone has the context around Grant's comment about some entity trying to make them illegal?"

Me too, but in my brief internet searching, the closest thing I could find was in BRAIN, where they say bike company WOOM is petitioning the CPSC to eliminate the existing and antiquated requirement for sidewalk bikes to have coaster brakes.  

Eliminating a requirement FOR coaster brakes on kiddie bikes is a whole lot different than making coaster brakes illegal, IMO.  If the Woom petition is all Grant is referring to, then that's a nothing-burger.  

BL in EC

[Jason Willey]

As a volunteer in a charity bike shop focused on refurbishing bikes for kids, I get to see lots of the really crummy department kids bikes.  A large number of the donated bikes are built with the cheapest possible handbrakes combined with the coaster brake.  Unless the handbrakes are in perfect condition I delete them from the build and make sure the coaster brake is operating correctly.  Fortunately we also receive a few nicer kids bikes from the local bike shops when they take them in as trade ins.  I encourage friends to always seek out the higher quality bike for their kids.  It rides better, can be handed down to the younger siblings, can be repaired, and when everyone outgrows it we can re-home it with a new family keeping it out of the landfill.

Bicycles For All - Dayton, OH

[Cyclofiend Jim]

That account has been removed from the group.  They made numerous attempts at posting to other threads with items for sale. 

If they contact you or any other list member directly, I would strongly suggest additional verification. 

- Jim / List Admin

[Ted Durant]

Follow-up because pictures prove it happened. This guy first got on a pedal bike in July, having spent a year on a no-pedal-bike. Pedals were a strange thing to him for a day or two. Now he stands on them to accelerate faster. Tongue out for that little extra effort. I'm not going to show you the picture of him coasting with his feet on the fork crown. Not sure where he learned that, though his coaster bike has a wood deck where the BB would be, so he's used to putting up his feet to coast. Rear brake is set so he can just barely skid the rear tire just before stopping. It has plenty of power, though, to bring him to a full stop from full speed in about 5 feet. Don't fret about the car - it's parked in an otherwise empty parking lot. He likes to do u-turns between the parking lines.