Only ourselves to blame?

[Michael]

For no more 5 speed or 6 speed freewheels in production?

 

Been reading Rivreaders and less gears on the back wheel sounds great. But I have seen the readers talking about the dwindling availabilty of these.

 

I am guessing that as racers needed more narrow jumps, it has grown to 11-speed cassettes.

I guess that as the bike companies are pushing racing gear for regular cyclists at shops, un-racers riders are taking the bait so all the demand is for the latest racing tech stuff, causing the demise of the 5/6/7 speed freewheels/cassettes?

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

As far as I can see, we bike consumer types have NOTHING to complain about. There has never been such a wide selection of bikes, parts, and accessories from which to choose. 5/6/7 speed freewheels are still available (and becoming more so, not less), if that's your thing. Yeah, you can buy 10sp or 11sp systems, too, but nobody is forcing you to do that. There is no retro-grouch persecution for us to rally around, though I will concede that you'd be hard pressed to find a new rear derailleur as crappy as what was considered state-of-the-art in the 1970s.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 00:18 -0800, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:
> As far as I can see, we bike consumer types have NOTHING to complain
> about. There has never been such a wide selection of bikes, parts, and
> accessories from which to choose. 5/6/7 speed freewheels are still
> available (and becoming more so, not less), if that's your thing.

Barely available, and with a tremendously restricted availability of
gearing combinations, compared to years past. Where is the old cog
board that let you make custom gearing? Where do you find 5 or 6 speed
freewheels for half-step gearing? Where do you find quality freewheels?
Nowhere.

But it's indexed shifters where the pressure gets applied. Do you like
9 speed and brifters? What do you do when your Shimano STI units fail,
as they all eventually do? Can you even buy a replacement other than
NOS?

> Yeah, you can buy 10sp or 11sp systems, too, but nobody is forcing
> you to do that.

Yes, actually they are forcing you. Can you get a new 7, 8 or 9 speed
Ultegra or Dura Ace quality STI unit? Can you get any wide range 8
speed cassette that doesn't start with 11? Can you buy a new road bike
equipped with a Shimano group of 105 quality level or above with
anything but 10? Can you buy any new road bike equipped with Campagnolo
that isn't either 10 or 11 (and almost all 11)?

> There is no retro-grouch persecution for us to rally around, though I
> will concede that you'd be hard pressed to find a new rear derailleur
> as crappy as what was considered state-of-the-art in the 1970s.

"Inexorable pressure and the ever-present threat of obsolescence" is how
I'd characterize it. "Persecution" is putting it a bit strong, but
claiming the pressure does not exist is denying the truth.

[Ron Mc]

On my last rebuild on my old Raleigh, I upgraded the 5-speed freewheel from ancient Suntour to new IRD - I found the best price at Rene Herse, but I've noticed that Harris is not carrying this model any more.  Rene Herse still has a few.  

 I bought two matching for two sets of wheels, and glad I did.  It's a hyperglide design, and with a new Sram chain, shifts very smoothly, and is super quiet.   

If you hunt around, there are still NOS venerable Suntour and Regina 5-speeds to be found on the net.  

Harris has Shimano Hyperglide 6-speeds.  

[Matthew J]

> If you hunt around, there are still NOS venerable Suntour and Regina 5-speeds to be found on the net.  

> Harris has Shimano Hyperglide 6-speeds.  

I've assembled a fairly large horde of Sun Tour Winner Pro and 888 5 speed fws, so really should keep quiet.

 

But ...

 

The IRD are hard to find because they had quality problems.  Shimano Hyperglide are a decided step down from Suntour and even what Shimano used to do.

 

IMO the best multi-speed FWs on the market today are the White Industries Duos.

 

Not all is lost, however.  Jeff Jones modifies Shimano 9 speed cassette to a 6 speed that works with a single speed hubs.  He builds it with the pricey and race oriented Chris King ISO ss hub in mind, but it works with other hubs as well.  Maybe a manufacturer will catch on.

 

 

[Matthew J]

> though I will concede that you'd be hard pressed to find a new rear derailleur as crappy as what was considered state-of-the-art in the 1970s.

Pretty much agree, although I wonder why it appears so hard for modern manufacturers to make a rear der as good looking as the Simplex were.

 

For friction shifting, I could not be happier with my mid-90s (and relatively attractive) long cage Shimano Ultegra.  They come up NOS or good used condition now and then, although less so than a few years back. 

[Bruce Herbitter]

Having gotten to the point in life where I have enough spares on the shelf to make it to the finish line, this is more an academic than actual discussion for me. With Loose Screws closing up, one of the few sources of good old stuff is now gone. There certainly are still new freewheels to be had, from IRD direct in 5,6 or 7 speeds

http://store.interlocracing.com/fr76and5sp.html

The ubiquitous Shimano Hyperglide

https://shop.sunrisecyclery.com/item/13986?gclid=CNW9nOaqzLQCFQY5nAodvQUAHQ

and some mega range cheap stuff for comfort/mountain style use.

The "Grouch" is right that the rich selections once avail are gone, but that is the way of almost any technology. We can still make it work though. 

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[Garth]

For "most" people, a 5,6.7 speed is a hard sell. Perception is EVERYTHING.  more=better  blah , etc. 

7 is heaven for me :)    I had the foresight to buy up a lifetime supply of 7sp. Sachs FW's and have collected barely used cogs along the way ;)


To make a full 5,6,7 speed FW system with cogs and all today would be a labor of love.

So who loves it enough to do it ?  That's the only question to me.

[Bertin753]

I've got 4 13-21 7 speed Shimano 600 FWs from a box I bought off the CR list and I found a ready buyer and a good price for the remaining 12 lbs of FWs and parts. Old ones are still out there.

Do racers really want 10 or 11 in back? If all were using 5 speeds with dt shifters, would they beg for more cogs and sti? I wonder.

Patrick Moore

iPhone

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[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Steve, I noticed recently that qbp is stocking a new line of pricey freewheels with lots of gearing options. I forget the name and I'm not in a place where I could look it up right now. I don't know if that brand has the interchangeability and customizability of old Sun Tour freewheels. But here is a case where "the industry" is responding to the demand for this kind of thing.

There will always be people who want a carburetor instead of a fuel injector, or send handwritten letters instead of email, or old discontinued parts instead of what is currently available. Keeping an old bike on the road is one thing. Setting up a new bike deliberately with obsolete parts is to swim against the current. Many of us here fall into the latter category.

[William]

Backing up Jim, I looked to QBP and they do offer a line of freewheels from "DNP".  7, 8, 9 and 10 speed freewheels (a 10 speed freewheel?!?!).  All with an 11 small cog.  Aside from that, they have the standard "Falcon" low end 5 speeders, the Shimanopores and the SunRace offerings.  None of those approach the fundamental versatility that Steve P was reckoning back to.

[Kelly]

I think to a point you are right.  However in my opinion everything evolves.  I am very happy with 9-speed stuff.   I was also happy with my 10 speed stuff.   The only reason I am on 9-speed instead of 10 is friction shifting and chain life.  

I know that the one tooth jumps in fast group rides for me were a life saver for keeping up and maintaing contact with the stronger faster packs I was riding with at the time.  Even in slower casual group rides it's nice to have a wide choice of cruising gears.  (not needed but nice)

Actually I'm hoping for some nice electronic shifting buttons / system, belt drive,  powered by my dyno hub.   I'll just add my bike to my AAA card and call it a day.  :)  Oh man.. I forgot to order my power handle bars and heated saddle.  

I'm guilty and will take blame .. but I am also not missing 5 speed drivetrains..  my opinion only and not saying I'm right,, just me.

Kelly 

On Thursday, January 3, 2013 12:31:21 AM UTC-6, Michael wrote:

[Garth]

that's just it Kelly .... there is No One To Blame !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Everyone is "right" in their perspectives.

We have all these speed choices, and that's a good thing !  

[Matthew J]

> I know that the one tooth jumps in fast group rides for me were a life saver for keeping up and maintaing contact with the stronger faster

> packs I was riding with at the time.  Even in slower casual group rides it's nice to have a wide choice of cruising gears.  (not needed but

> nice)

 

There's the rub for me anyway.  If I did club or group riding, fitting in with the crowd may be the way to go.  I use my Suntour FWs on my tour and commuting bikes - and note - the hubs on both are MaxiCar, may have done something different otherwise. 

 

Aside from the earlier referenced Jeff Jones 6, I find most of the new off the shelf cassette and hub offerings are directed more to the club and group riders than touring and commuting.  The vacuum, IMO, this leaves is part of the reason expensive and heavy IGHs have become so popular. 

[PATRICK MOORE]

Perspective re-alignment: take five deep breaths and close your eyes: imagine Fausto Coppi climbing the Stelvio in a 48/18 -- my flatland cruising gear!! -- [Even though the Stelvio is two weeks away, I am already looking forward to it. I was flipping through May 2012 ProCycling Mag (the one with Ivan Basso on the cover in front of the Stelvio). On page 58, they recap the 1953 climb where Fausto started the legend and won the Giro. The thing that really stands out is he climbed the route in a massive 48x18 when the road was still gravel. I'd want a 34x25. 48x18 Doesn't really seem human.....] 

I used to obsess about gearing: during boring staff meetings I'd work out gear combinations on scratch paper. When 9 and 10 speed drivetrains came out in the late '90s and early oughts I'd fret about whether a 2X10 was better than a close ratio 3X7. I used to favor close ratio triples. I liked a 1X10 on my gofast. But slowly I began to see the vanity of this worldly worry and slowly I began to simplify my life with -- fixed drivetrains! Life became so much more simple and rewarding. And I realized: It doesn't matter! Talk about "just ride" and "no shoes ruze! Just jettison your cogsets and be free! You have nothing to lose but your chains! (That was Marx and Engels, but what they really meant was: "Keep your chains! Just lose the extra cogs!)

Slightly less feverishly: Me, I like simplicity and low dish and narrow Q, so, for Me, a 2X7 is better than a 1X10. But give me a downhill gear of 90", a low of 40" and a 60, 65, 70, and 75, and I'm happy.

Again, if all racers had to use Merckx's gearing, would they really be unhappy?

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[Matthew J]

Slightly less feverishly: Me, I like simplicity and low dish and narrow Q, so, for Me, a 2X7 is better than a 1X10. But give me a downhill gear of 90", a low of 40" and a 60, 65, 70, and 75, and I'm happy.

Like it.  And don't leave the tour and cycle commuters the lower end stuff.  We need quality just as much or more so than the racers.

[Patrick in VT]

On Thursday, January 3, 2013 10:25:55 AM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

Do racers really want 10 or 11 in back? If all were using 5 speeds with dt shifters, would they beg for more cogs and sti? I wonder.

I appreciate the granularity of 10spd when I'm on the limit.  A tightly spaced cassette helps me maintain my optimal cadence, a good rhythm and some sense of composure - it's probably a comfort thing as much as a performance thing.  I only think about it on the road and when riding very hard - I just don't want to burn more matches than I have to by excessive spinning/mashing.  My CX and MTBs are 8spd and that's plenty for me, even when racing.  I could probably get away with 5spd on the MTB and get the same results . . .. just prefer more modern components.  The road is just a different beast. 

As for brifters, I think they're great and I'm glad they are more or less standard issue because bike handling seems to be afterthought for a lot of amateur racers.  Riding in a peloton full of twitchy riders on twitchy bikes, I like to see undistracted hands, on the bars, as much as possible.

[PATRICK MOORE]

BTW, here is the link to a very nice man who services and sells freewheels. He's the one who bought my stash of old ones.

http://www.freewheelspa.com/

On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Matthew J <matth...@gmail.com> wrote:

Slightly less feverishly: Me, I like simplicity and low dish and narrow Q, so, for Me, a 2X7 is better than a 1X10. But give me a downhill gear of 90", a low of 40" and a 60, 65, 70, and 75, and I'm happy.

Like it.  And don't leave the tour and cycle commuters the lower end stuff.  We need quality just as much or more so than the racers.

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[Jeremy Till]

Yep, 9 and 10 spd freewheels exist.  The application I know about for these rarities are electric assist rear hubs such as BionX, which use flex of the rear axle as a strain gauge to determine when the rider is pedaling, to activate the assist system. 

I haven't examined one of these freewheels closely, but not that I could tell much from the outside.  The proof, as they say, is in the pudding, and in this case is weather these things can stand up to years of use (beyond occasional usage) and weather and not explode like the IRD and Shimano ones are known to. 

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 07:43 -0800, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:
> Steve, I noticed recently that qbp is stocking a new line of pricey freewheels with lots of gearing options. I forget the name and I'm not in a place where I could look it up right now. I don't know if that brand has the interchangeability and customizability of old Sun Tour freewheels. But here is a case where "the industry" is responding to the demand for this kind of thing.
>
> There will always be people who want a carburetor instead of a fuel injector, or send handwritten letters instead of email, or old discontinued parts instead of what is currently available. Keeping an old bike on the road is one thing. Setting up a new bike deliberately with obsolete parts is to swim against the current. Many of us here fall into the latter category.
>

Yes, but in my opinion it shouldn't be "swimming against the current" to
want to use 7, 8 or 9 speed cassettes. It's not like a 9 speed cassette
drive train is as antiquated as a carburetor. There are huge, even
monumental advantages to fuel injection over carburetors. Carburetors
can't deliver emissions in the range required of new production, not by
a long chalk.

The relative advantage of 10 sprockets over 9, on the other hand, is
trivial, even meaningless to all but a few riders (and that of 11 is
even more trivial), while the costs, both in terms of dollars and
longevity are great. Ever narrower chains and ever thinner sprockets
mean shorter service life and more delicate adjustment as well as
costlier chains and cassettes (not to mention shockingly expensive
Campagnolo 11 speed chain tools).

[William]

Can you get any wide range 8 
speed cassette that doesn't start with 11?

Apparently yes.  IRD offers a 12-32 (among other less-wide variants).  

http://store.interlocracing.com/9and8spmtca.html

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 13:55 -0800, William wrote:
> Can you get any wide range 8
> speed cassette that doesn't start with 11?
>
>
> Apparently yes. IRD offers a 12-32 (among other less-wide variants).
>
>
>
> http://store.interlocracing.com/9and8spmtca.html

Good to hear that, because in my opinion the 12-32 (originally an XTR
M900 cassette but long since discontinued) was the best 8 speed
combination ever offered.


>

[Joe Bernard]

I find myself almost disturbingly unconcerned with the makeup of a drivetrain as long as it works for the bike it's on, and I can find the bits somewhere (I always can). 6-and-7speed freewheels, 8-speed cassettes, friction, indexed downtube, indexed trigger shifters, sidepulls, dual-pivots, cantis, V-brakes, and disks.

 

I tend to like lugged-steel frames, Brooks saddles, and uprightish bars. Other than that, it's important to me that the drivetrain look nice and work well, but I seem to find something good about just about every variation of age/technology/number-of-cogs. And yes, I would love to set my Saluki up with Shimano electronic shifting on a Moustache Bar :)

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[William]

Steve

I have that 8 speed XTR 12-32 on my Bombadil with one to spare, so I'm right there with you on that.  

The bummer about the IRD 12-32 is that it has a super goofy cliff right in the middle where both you and I tend to live.  Get this:  

It's a 12-14-16-18-20-24-28-32.  Jumps of 2-2-2-2-4-4-4.  Really unfortunate.  It would be *so* much better if that 20 was a 21.  2-2-2-3-3-4-4 is the right way to go.  

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Hey, I just found a lightly used Shimano 600 freewheel today. 6sp, 13-28, seems smooth and good. In original box with original $29.95 price tag! Anybody want it? Make me an offer that includes shipping.

[Garth]

Jim, What are the cog teeth of the 13-28  FW ?

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

13-15-18-21-24-28, I think. I'll confirm when I get to work in a couple hours, and report back if a correction is in order.