Maximum drop between large/outer and small/inner cog that shifts well consistently (in friction)

[Patrick Moore]

I’m mentally toying with rebuilding my lovely Roadeo with silver and friction parts  instead of the industrial-looking (but seamlessly working) Ultegra 8000 11-sp group.

This group includes a 50/34 double. I think of switching it to a 50 + something smaller than 34. Do any of you have a 20-tooth gap between big and small rings? What front derailleur? How does it work?

I’d center the big ring so that the drivetrain is a 1X + occasional use granny. I’d use the 50 with all 11 cogs, cruising gears would be the middle 5 cogs in the big ring, and I’d use the granny only for very steep hills.

Would this work? Things to be wary of?

Thanks.

BIG RING CENTERED
27.3" wheel
	50	30
14	98
15	91
16	85	51
17	80	48
18	76	46
19	72	43
20	68	41
21	65	39
23	59	36
27	51	30
32	43	26

--

Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[Steve]

Patrick, I've run a 50-44-24 triple (non-ramped rings) with a 1990 Deore LX 3x FD without any issues, though it did prefer a crisp upshift. The original small chainring was a 28t, so I may - or may not - have been exceeding Shimano's spec for the FD. 

I don't recall if you're using 'brifters' on your Roadeo, so I should mention that the bike was setup with friction shifting.

Steve in AVL

[Steve]

--- Just adding that I think offsetting the chain line a bit to favor the big ring is a smart approach. 

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Steve. I’m using an Ultegra 11 sp 50/34 double and wondered if I could go as low as 32 for the inner ring.

Perhaps what I’ll do is switch to a 48/32.

If I go friction, I’ll center the outer ring on the cassette.

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[Shannon Menkveld]

If you're going friction, why not just use any Deore-or-better Shimano 6-9 speed MTB derailleur that you like the looks of? Nothing better was ever made by anyone, and not many were as good.

--Shannon

[Bernard Duhon]

Ditto  on that 

Heck Campy triple front works also if you are friction shifting. 

Yours sincerely,

 

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From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Shannon Menkveld <shannon....@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2026 1:29 PM
To: RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Maximum drop between large/outer and small/inner cog that shifts well consistently (in friction)

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[Guy Jett]

I've used a 26-46-49 half-step + granny on my '74 Raleigh Competition for many years.  It's currently shifted with its Huret Jubilee front with no problems.  Just don't expect super quick upshifts from the 26 to the 46.  This delicate ancient front derailleur does just fine.  Before that I used a SunTour Cyclone front.  Shifted a bit quicker than the Huret.  

The SunTour has been moved it to my 24-41-44 gearing on my Hilson.  A 16-tooth difference with no problems.

These would now be considered "racing" derailleurs but they're necessary due to the three tooth tooth differences between the big rings.  The deeper inner plates on most modern non-racing derailluers don't allow shifting over such small tooth differences.  (I've ridden 1/2-stems for nearly 45 years and I no longer understand how to shift the "normal" chainring setups now -- just doesn't make sense...)

GAJett 

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[Patrick Moore]

I’m interested to know if people have comfortably shifted a, say, 18 or 20 t gap between double chainrings, using whatever derailleurs they used. I may or may not rebuild the bike to friction and silver and if I do I’ll choose components that I’ve found or that are reputed to work best while looking nicer than the fugly components on the bike now. OTOH, I may just leave the R8000 group because, ugly or not, it works superbly and I ought to have (I’ll leave parsing “ought” to later) have at least one bike with a modern drivetrain. At least you can cross chain with relative impunity, as many people responded when I asked, “How many cogs can I use with the Big? The small?"

I’d thought of swapping the R8000 crank to smaller outer and inner rings, but I see that “they” offer only 50 and 46 outers and that 34 is the smallest inner. What shite. I’d like a 48/34 or perhaps a 48/32 or even a 48/30. Damned systems that lock you into the machine’s choices instead of your own; as computers do. 

So my original question in fact bears only on some possible future friction setup. Still, can I shift 20 t between 1X + granny chainrings if well set up and use relatively occasionally for the steepest hills?

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[Patrick Moore]

Aside: for the record, as a PSA: yes, it is true that using a chain 1 generation narrower than the cassette can improve shifting. I replaced the 11 sp chain with the cheapest SRAM I could find ($48?); the SRAM is ~5.2 mm wide, the 11 was ~5.8 mm wide. 

The 12 cured the grumbling on the #10 position 27 after I’d shifted cogs around on the 14-32 in order to get a 20 in between the 19 and the 21. Yes, I’d earlier futzed earnestly with the cable tensioner; smoothness in all 11 cogs couldn’t be done with the 11 with the cassette as-is.

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Guy. I was hoping to hear someone confirm what I thought I'd read in the past, that he shifted rings 20 t apart without undue drama. Slow is alright, as I'd use the granny (again, possible future 1X + granny) only for really steep hills.

Aside: + 1 for 3-tooth gaps between "main" chainrings on half step systems. I sometimes think of returning to a, say, 7 speed rear with something like the 48/45  I used to use long ago on a commuter. Perfect rear-1-tooth equivalent shifts in middle range cruising gears. I set up mine so that the 48/45 were centered on the middle 17 so that, with 25" wheel, I could shift between the 71" and the 66" by flicking the left shifter (shifters were brake lever mounted; forget the name) back and forth, using those gears for 8/10 of my riding. I half stepped the middle 5 cogs and installed a 32 (IIRC) inboard for steeper hills and a 13 or so for downhills on the outside.

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[Patrick Moore]

I see that Shimano seems to offer a 53 t outer for the R8000, so that I could have a 53/34 and swap the tiny 14 t outer cog for a manly 15 t, and swap the 27 for a 28 and the 32 for a 34 to bring things down a bit.

[Bernard Duhon]

Sorry for not addressing the question 

I have no trouble going 18 tooth drop with Rene hearse crank & a Campy triple front derailleur. 

Course I am friction shifting. 

Yours sincerely,

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2026 3:44 PM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Maximum drop between large/outer and small/inner cog that shifts well consistently (in friction)

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[Nick Payne]

Chris Juden (used to be Cycling UK's technical officer) has a relevant article here from the Cycling UK magazine: https://www.cyclinguk.org/sites/default/files/document/migrated/publication/201405018.pdf.

Nick Payne

[Mike Godwin]

The max difference I've shifted is 48-30 using the VO - TA copy crank. Suntour Cyclone FD. The cage is plenty narrow to clear the crank arm. Easily shifted, but I did not like the 18t jump between the rings. It might have been acceptable with a 8-9-10 spd cogset, but using a Shimano 600 6-spd freewheel, 13-28, the gear ratios are not that great in the wind.

Currently running on the Ebisu is a triple-ized DA 7400, 48-38-24 / 10 spd XT cogs, shifted with a Cyclone FD. I was using a Campy Centaur FD, but the cage is a wee bit too wide for the triple-ized 7400. I may go to a Campy SR FD from the late 70s-early 80s so I have both Campy FD and RD. 

Mike "southerly tropical winds" in SLO CA