New Front Deraileurs for Half-step (+ granny)

[GAJett]

I have ridden with a half-step+granny almost exclusively since about 1976 (thanks Frank Berto).  I absolutely love these setups.  My two current rides have only a 3-tooth difference up front (49-46-26 and 44-41-24).  These are a converted 1974 Raleigh Competition and a 2010 A. Homer Hilson.  Successful and reliable shifting has been done with a Suntour Superbe, a Suntour Cyclone, and a Huret Jubilee  All worked without any problems, even the delicate Jubilee.  I suspect that most older racing derailleurs would also work (e.g., Campagnolo, Shimano, Zeus, etc).

Is anyone aware of any modern derailleurs that can shift over such narrow 3 to 5-tooth difference ranges?  Mountain bike derailleurs have the necessary throw but the deep inner cages interfere with the middle ring while trying to shift to the outer -- so those are out.  Descriptions of almost all the "racing" derailleurs are described as having a throw that is limited only to double cranksets -- so those seem to be out as well.

So what are my options?

a.  Advice about specific "racing" styles that are known to work over a triple;

b.  Many current "racing" styles really CAN shift over a triple -- go for it;
c.  Many current "racing" styles really can be easily modified to do so (like filing down stops);
d.  Stay old school and order vintage parts.

I've searched a dozen or more conversations here and have not found any clear answers.  I'm sure many of you can steer me right (and that any decisions based on your inputs are on my own head and everyone else is blameless for their guidance).

Thanks all for your wisdom,

GAJett

[Patrick Moore]

Where do you find rings in the 40-50 teeth range in odd teeth numbers?

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[Garth]

Probably a Microshift double R8 or R9 should work . Don't go by any specs mfrs. give, they are but mfr. intended/recommended parameters they assume the average buyer would use. Every road double FD since the beginning of time will say something like a 16t capacity for 52/53t max ring. Those aren't limitations. I ran a 1999 105 5500 series double FD with a 26/44/48 and 26/36/50 without a hiccup. That's part of the fun of DIY, seeing what works and what doesn't, off the beaten path. Undocumented, not-supposed-to work, and all that jazz :)

[GAJett]

See my contribution to the recent "Preparing Bleriot to Sell--Seeking Advice" conversation.  Peter White (https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/tach.php) currently lists TA making odd-toothed chainrings for 110 bcd cranks and some others.  Here is the abbreviated list:

GENERAL CHAINRINGS FOR COMPACT CRANKSETS
110mm Syrius 11 Speed Chainrings for Compact Cranksets
Description
TA Syrius 11 110mm 39 teeth black
TA Syrius 11 110mm 53 teeth black

110mm Zephyr Chainrings for Compact Double Cranksets and Triples
Description
TA Zephyr 110mm inner 33 teeth black
TA Zephyr 110mm inner 33 teeth silver
TA Zephyr 110mm middle 39 teeth black
TA Zephyr 110mm middle 39 teeth silver
TA Zephyr 110mm outer 45 teeth black
TA Zephyr 110mm outer 49 teeth black
TA Zephyr 110mm outer 49 teeth silver
TA Zephyr 110mm outer 51 teeth black
TA Zephyr 110mm outer 51 teeth silver
TA Zephyr 110mm outer 53 teeth black

TA Zephyr 110mm outer 53 teeth silver

So they are out there but getting harder and harder to find.  That's part of why likely go to a 4-tooth difference on my next build.

GAJett

[GAJett]

Thanks Garth.  I have one bookmarked for future reference.
GAJett

[Bill Lindsay]

In my opinion there is no new production front derailleur for half-step.  The key objective feature that a half-step front derailleur needs in order to be considered a half-step front der is an inner cage that does not reach far below the outer cage.  Everything that is current is designed for a 14 or a 16 tooth jump, so the inner cage reaches WAY below the outer cage.  That's something that is straightforward to look at, and nothing contemporary is going to have that.  If one wants to run a new production front derailleur with a half-step setup, then they will just need to run the derailleur a lot higher above the big ring than is considered normal or optimal.  There are lots of people who say "I run my FD an inch above the rings and it still shifts fine". The fact is the job of a front derailleur is pretty darn simple, particularly in friction set ups.  

For me, when I'm doing a half-step build, I always use a vintage Shimano derailleur that was designed for half-step.  Tons were made, and they rarely wear out, and nobody wants them today, so they are cheap on eBay.  Just type half-step front into the eBay search bar and there are many to choose from.  Just as a test, I put 5 or 6 of them on my watch list and I've already been given discount offers on a few of them.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Joe in the Pay Area]

SunTour Mountech. Been using them since I was introduced to them on my '85 Specialized Expedition, which came equipped with a half-step and granny. I now use them on the Expedition, the All Rounder, the Atlantis, the Stumpjumper and one or two recumbents, all half-steps btw. Never, ever had a problem and they do the job well. Check your local bike shop's old parts bins for them.

[Guy Jett]

My special thanks to Joe in the Pay Area, Bill Lindsay, Garth, and Kim H. for chiming in on my question on front mechs for half-step gearing.  Seems the best solution lie in finding older racing derailleurs.  This is partly because recent "half-step" derailleurs are ambiguous re. the small tooth differences that will work.  Only a few of the more recent half-steppers list any such specification and one that does lists a 6 tooth difference.  I'm looking at 3 to 4 with 6 too much.

This is a great group.

Cheers to all,

GAJett

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[Shannon Menkveld]

For what little it's worth, I've used a road double in both 1/2-step (45/42/30 x 14-16-18-20-23-26, Suntour AR, Riv Silvers on the d/t) and 1.5-step (48/39/26 x 12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32, Campy Nuovo Record, Suntour bar-cons) triples. Both shift great, although the double-double shuffle on the 1.5 can be a bit of a bother.

For both, the upshift off the granny is best approached gently. But it works every time, and when was the last time you needed to shift from the granny to the middle ring right friggin' now!!?

Basically, I don't sweat front derailleurs on triples anymore. Those who brift the front probably disagree, and they're not wrong.

--Shannon

[GAJett]

Hi Shannon,

I built up my first 1/2-step+granny probably back in 1976 to '78 and have ridden them near exclusively ever since.  For me, the system "just makes sense"  Rather than trying to hit every gear up and down, I treat the system as an "ultra compact double with fine tuning" -- I'm usually on the middle ring unless I need to make small adjustments to keep within my comfy cadence range.  I don't think I could make sense of riding a standard chainset anymore.

What you describe is just what I've found for "older" front derailleurs -- doubles, triples, all worked fine.  Then came mountain bikes with the "very deep" inner plates that don't play nicely with three to five tooth differences on the chainwheels.  And now, with every manufacturer seemingly going to their own standards, many are explicit in designating front derailleurs  as either "double" or "triple".  To me this implies that a "double" won't shift far enough to cover triples anymore, and the inner plates on the triples won't allow the front to be properly adjusted above the large chainwheel without a massive gap to allow that shift to even occur.  

Over the years I have had success with Suntour Cyclones & Superbes, Shimano Deores, and a "delicate" Huret Jubilee.  Wouldn't hesitate to try an old Campy Record / Super Record, or others such as Zeus.

And I agree with you 110% about upshifts from the granny.

[Patrick Moore]

Shannon: As with clip-and-strap pedals and moustache bars, I keep wanting to try half-step gearing again, even though I know that 10 or 11 speed 1Xs + grannies and SPDs and drop bars are all much more comfortable for my riding. 

Where do you find 45 tooth 130 bcd rings?

When I half-stepped, yes, I wanted 3-t ring gaps, and I used Sugino 110s in 48/45 or 47/44, but that was 20 years ago or so when these rings were readily available online. Fun fact: Kelly Take-Offs are wonderful shifters for half-step drivetrains and drop bars.

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[Patrick Moore]

Jet: That’s interesting. I set up my half-steps so that my main cruising gears were on the 2 middle cogs, so that shifting simply involved slamming the front shifter back and forth (Old Record dt shifters on Kelly Take-Offs). 

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[Patrick Moore]

Sorry, I meant, on the ONE MIDDLE COG (7 speed cassette, half-stepping the middle 5 with outer a downhill and inner an uphill gear). The 17 t central cog gave roughly 70” and 65” gears, just right for most of my riding in rolling terrain. 

[Peter Adler]

I believe that TA (the best chainring manufacturer in the world - fight me!) used to make the 9/10/11 speed 130 BCD Alize inner in a 45, but they no longer do; now it's 38/39/40/42/44/46. The outer starts at 46, but in TA's inimitable (or at least un-imitated) comprehensive fashion, they go in one-tooth increments from 46 to 61. Options!

https://specialites-ta.com/double/122-548-double-plateau-specialites-ta-alize-interieur-130mm-9-10-11v-argent-specialites-ta-pl50130102.html#/19,denture,38-dts

https://specialites-ta.com/double/126-583-double-plateau-specialites-ta-alize-exterieur-130mm-9-10v-argent-specialites-ta-pl50130302.html#/27,denture,46-dts

I run a 50s racer traditional 50/47 on a couple of 50s-60s road bikes, and rode 26-28/46/50 on my pack mules (Raleigh International, Trek 720) for about fifteen years until I stupidly walked away from my Trek on a BART train last February. I've always got the gear to put another 5-pin 1/2 step+granny together, but my current pack mule (Raleigh Competition) is using a Stronglight 99 48/38, because I'd had the crankset lying around unused for about a decade. I'm a hill wuss, so the granny only came into action a few times a year anyway; I haven't missed it yet.

Peter Adler

who scored an Alize 38/48 ring set for cheap at the bike kitchen last week, to put on a Shimano Arabesque; but who also has put years and years on half-step, with and without grannies in

Berkeley, California

[Garth]

Do 'ya feel like paying for shipping/importing again Patrick ?  Maybe you don't need it yesterday, but once again, Miche has what you need. Black or silver. 

https://www.tradeinn.com/bikeinn/en/miche-road-supertype-interior-5b-130-shimano-chainring/137451932/p

https://www.tradeinn.com/bikeinn/en/miche-road-supertype-interior-5b-shimano-130-bcd-chainring/137451931/p?

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Peter.

Damn! I really want to put clips and straps on the Roadeo and rebuild the drivetrain with a 50/47 half stepped 5 speed rear. We’ll see. Too bad the Roadeo doesn’t have dt shifter bosses, but I have a few pairs of Suntour Barcons. Or find a pair of Kelly Take-Offs.

And non-aero brake levers. And I have a lovely new Swift, too.

Patrick “half serious” Moore

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[Patrick Moore]

Wow, this list is like a collective search engine. Thanks. I’m really tempted.

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[Patrick Moore]

I may buy a few of the 45s or 47s just in case ...

[Guy Jett]

Don't know if this will work but RMBike on eBay has130mm 45T chainrings for folding bikes.  These include an integrated chaingaurd which may be a problem for your (our) needs.  They also appear to be available in just about any color but silver, but you'd need to look around.

GAJett

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[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Guy. Yes, the chain guards would interfere with closely-sized double setups, but they might work well for fine-tuning a fixed gear, ss, or IGH drivetrain.

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