1X10: How clean it is!

[Mike in WA]

I just got back from my first proper ride with the new 1X10 drivetrain on my Jones Plus and I can say it's the best improvement I've ever made to a bike. I was having major trouble with chain drops and poor shifting on my 2X9 setup so I converted to 1X10 using a Wolf Tooth 32t ring, XT clutch derailer, the new Sunrace 11-42 cassette, and a Microshift 10-speed thumb shifter to replace my Silver shifters. The psychic liberation of not having to even think about a front derailer, gear overlap and cross-chaining made shifting a breeze and helped me to be more present in the ride. Also helps that I wasn't having to stop, don a nitrile glove and curse at my FD! I found that I lost nothing that I needed on the high gear-inch end, and I still maintained my exact same low gear from before. 

My riding performance priorities are: 1) capable and easy to use mountain bike 2) reliable commuter 3) gravel/dirt bike with adequate gear range. This setup seems likely to nail all of those with aplomb, though I haven't had a chance to mountain bike with this rig yet. I expect that the ease and improved reliability of shifting will allow me to get better at climbing instead of just giving up when the god damn shifting doesn't work! If you're doing any riding other than road racing, I can't see how a double or triple chainring setup could be better. Front derailers are stupid and unnecessary, IMO. 

I feel a bit like an outsider who posts off-topic too much on this list since I've ditched all of my Rivendells, but I think this type of setup really accords with the values/goals of most of you lugged steel people have. I think a Hunqapillar, Clem/Clementine, Joe, or Sam would all be awesome with a 1X10 drivetrain. I felt like a bit of a traitor going to indexed shifting, but that also might be something worth considering. With the relatively large jumps on an 11-42 cassette, I found the indexing to be quite appropriately stepped and easy to use. It's kind of nice having that solid click working for you. This is coming from someone who rode friction or fixed gears for the past 10+ years. This new-fangled Dynasys 10-speed universe is actually quite nice, I promise.

Here's the bike

Over and out. 

Mike in WA

[dstein]

Nice! I got a Jones recently as well with a 2x9 setup which I'm happy with (trigger shifters) and have had no issues with, but am thinking of a 1x9 or 1x10 on my hunqapillar (or just sell the hunqapillar). What is the crank you're using? Are you using indexed or friction on the shifters?

[Chris Lampe 2]

I went 1x9 on my Karate Monkey and I don't have any interest in ever having more than one chainring on a bike.  At this point, I think I really want to look in upgrading to a Rohloff in the next few years.  Low maintenance, wide gear range, simplicity (from the perspective of keeping the indexed shifting tuned) and convenience are what I'm after and I think the Rohloff checks all of those boxes. 

[Mike in WA]

I'm running the Surly OD crank with a Microshift MTN thumb shifter. I'm currently using indexed shifting, but you can switch these into friction mode with the turn of an allen key. The option to be able to go back to the retrogrouch world of friction shifting if I so choose was really attractive (especially if indexing starts to suck on a tour and I can't fix it). 

Very cool that you got a Jones! I'm convinced it's the one and only bike a human needs. I parted out my Sam and bought a second wheelset. 

[Ron Mc]

I have a 2 x 9 that has given me no grief whatsoever after 4000 mi, but I also love my Microshift thumbies 

Microshift indexing works great (Miche custom cassette)

This is my first index-shifting bike ever, but went it with after the success with Microshift 9-sp index bar ends on my daughter's bike.  

  

Shifting is totally mindless 

fwiw, this setup functions much like a 1x drivetrain (more accurately, two 1x drivetrains) with 5 narrow cruising gears and 4 slightly wider climbing gears (narrow steps below 50 inches down to tree-climbing gears on the 25T granny ring).  For the big step between 42T and 25T rings, Ultegra CX70 FD has also functioned flawlessly, and will cover the rear range on the big ring with no FD adjustments.  

However, it would look great with a 1x10 and Paul crank.  

[Mojo]

Congratulations Mike, sounds like you're happy. I seem to want and use a dirt low gear around here of 18-21 inches. My flawless 2x9 gives me that with a less expensive 9 cog cassette.

So does Big O fenders have a dedicated fender kit for the Jones Plus?

And after 10 months on mine I agree with you, this bike with two wheel sets (& fenders) is the proverbial One Bike that Does All.

[Belopsky]

My old Surly Pugsley was 1x9 setup and I liked it. My new Pugsley is 2x10 and it's all right, but a 1x setup is always appealing as there is less to jam.

[Lungimsam]

1x sounds intriguing but i like friction shifting.
I might also miss fd shifting.

I think it is good to have things to do with the hands to get them moving and off the bars regularly.

I also need a mighty low bail out gear (28x30).
I dont know how that works out to which ratios with a 1x.

[Deacon Patrick]

Fantastic, Mike! The 1x drive train is wondrous, isn't it?

I run a hybrid of sorts on my Hunqapillar, that gives me the range of a 2x9 but the simplicity of a 1x9. My outer chain ring is effectively a bash guard (I never use it, as it only offers 1 gear substantially higher than my middle ring.). To do this I: 

• removed my front derailer
• middle ring is a Wolf Wide Narrow 38t
• Granny is smallest they make, (24t?)
• hand shift front rings

How does this play out in the real world? I am almost always in my middle ring (38t) for all riding except bikepacking. Occasionally on long steep trails unloaded I'll shift to the granny. Bikepacking, is nearly 100% in the granny gear, save for mild long dirt road sections connecting sections.

I love it!

With abandon,

Patrick

[Chris Lampe 2]

I've considered doing this with my drivetrain.  I'm using a converted triple so I could easily stick a 24t ring on there as an emergency "manual" bailout gear.  

[Mike in WA]

True stick shifting at it's finest! Sounds like a great setup, Patrick (though it'd be exceedingly difficult to market). I may have come on a little strong in saying FD's are entirely stupid and useless, but for my purposes they don't make sense. I fancied the idea of bikepacking when I bought the Plus, but haven't actually done much of it, mostly because I hate riding steeps with a loaded bike. If I were to take on some serious bikepacking trips, I think I would just switch to a 28t front chainring for that purpose as another type of "manual shift". For 97% of the miles I'd do, 1X10 is awesome. -- Mike 

[JohnS]

When I first got my Surly Big Dummy, I didn't have a FD which fit the seat tube, so I was doing the stick for shifting thing as well. I got pretty good at using my shoe for the down shift. A 1x set up makes a lot of sense to me, I've been putting bikes together that way for friends and family members for a few years now. I have a box of FD in the garage to prove it!

JohnS

[Justin August]

Every single time I see a Jones I think that it is the way to go for my future MTB (after this house thing settles). They just look perfect!

-Justin

[Bruce Smitham]

I'm getting ready to switch to a 1 x 11 drivetrain as well. Currently I have my Ritchey Breakaway Ti Cross set up with Sram Apex 2 x 10 brifters and MTN drivetrain (42 x 28 rings) and 12/36 cassette. Works well but I still get a little trim issue with the FD now and then which bothers me. I'm going to a Shimano XT 1 x 11 MTN drivetrain (34 ring) and 11/42 cassette. I'm just waiting on the Gevenalle (Retro shifters) to arrive which should work in both index and my favorite; friction mode. I'm hoping it will all work out and run smoothly. This is how I really wanted to set up my bike initially because of all the reasons mentioned in some of the posts as well as for ease of traveling. Simply put I just prefer to have one cable and RD to deal with when assembling/disassembling my bike while traveling. I'll provide an update when it's set up. BTW, I've set up my Salsa Fargo with Jones loops bars and the Schwalbe Super Moto 2.4 tires that Jeff recommended. It's unbelievably great at both off and on-road. I bought the Fargo on a deal with the understanding that I could beat it up and if it were lost or stolen I wouldn't feel the loss. Now I cherish it and love the fit. I can only imagine what a Jones Plus would be like? So if I'm ever in the market for a new bike, I'm definitely flying up to Oregon to test ride and check out some Jeff Jones bikes. 

Bruce in San Diego

[Mike in WA]

Heck yeah! They're going to be even better with the new model now having boost spacing in the rear and capability to use 150mm generator front hubs. I don't regret being an early adopter, but that will be an awesome bike. New Jones Plus

Also, I think the world needs a Grant Petersen-Jeff Jones lovechild. Lugged 29+. 

[Mike in WA]

Assuming you're running 700X38 tires (i think I recall you posting about switching to Barlows...) and it's 28 front, 30 in back, that works out to a 25.5 gear-inch low gear. On 2.3" road tires, I'm getting a 22 inch low gear with a 32 X 11-42 setup. I personally find that I can barely deliver enough power at 22 gear inches to maintain good rear traction on dirt, better off walking (Lowest Common Gear!) instead of going any lower than that for me. 

[George Schick]

I'm curious to know what kind of chain you're using with that Wolf Tooth - a 9 or 10 speed chain, etc?  Info about that on the Wolf Tooth side is a little sketchy.

On Saturday, April 9, 2016 at 10:44:25 PM UTC-5, Mike in WA wrote:

[Mike in WA]

I'm using a 10-speed chain. IIRC, Wolf Tooth recommends using the narrower 10-speed chain for a tighter fit, but 9-speed will work. 10-speed chains are cheap these days (I got a Shimano XT for $20), which made the decision to convert easier. 

[Bob Ehrenbeck]

I'm using a 1x8 friction-shift drivetrain, with a 34T Wolf Tooth Drop-Stop chainring up front on my Clem. The 8-speed chain works just fine.

Bob E

[stoker]

That's a timely post! A couple of weeks ago, I updated my Riv Custom from a 'classic' build (friction shifting, etc.) to a 1x10. Wolf Tooth 40T w/Sram Rival  10 speed (12x28). I ran a 103mm BB with the Ritchey Logic cranks. The chainline is perfect and it has a crazy low Q. I wish I had done this a while ago...

I also switched out the saddle to a C15. I really like it.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/107142884@N05/25519153624/in/album-72157637139677264/

 

On Saturday, April 9, 2016 at 10:44:25 PM UTC-5, Mike in WA wrote:

[Bruce Smitham]

Hey Stoker, that's a sweet set up and beautiful bike. It's a cross between my Rivendell Rodeo and Ritchey Breakaway Ti Cross. I'm looking forward to going 1 X 11 within the next week.

Bruce

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[Ron Mc]

understatement - congratulations on a such a fine ride

[George Schick]

As long as we're on the subject of 1x"n" gearing, anyone know how difficult it is to build up your own custom cassette these days?  Say you wanted a certain gear size right straight down the middle of a 9-speed because that's the one you'll be riding in 90% of the time, but nobody sells one like that.  Or, if they do, maybe the adjacent gears are too large or too small for your taste, etc.  I know the larger and mid-range cogs are often riveted together, which seems like it might limit one's flexibility to pick and choose.

[Bill Lindsay]

George asked:

"anyone know how difficult it is to build up your own custom cassette these days?"

Just like virtually anything, the real answer is: it depends

There are individual cogs out there.  If you can find the collection of individual cogs you need, then the actual physical effort of "building up your own custom cassette" is small.  If your tastes in exactly what you want those cogs to be are way out beyond the fringe of what anybody else wants, then it might be hard.  A lot of people buy a cassette that is close to what they want and remove and replace the cogs that they don't like.  Some people get what they want by buying two cassettes and using the top half of one with the bottom half of another.  If you determined that your project requires you to remove and replace the cogs that are riveted to those carrier things, that gets a lot harder.  If you accumulate individual cogs, and you use friction shifting, then just about anything is achievable with plentiful spacers in all conceivable widths

At the end of the day it i's all very case by case.  If you know exactly what you want, and want assistance from this knowledgeable group on the smartest (or the cheapest) way to accomplish it, then maybe you should just describe what you are after.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Ron Mc]

I've made up 3 using Miche cassettes

Here's a thread you might want to peruse:  

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/internet-bob/jwPd_VZqvmk  

BTW, on my 2x9 yesterday, I rode in every gear (I live in the Texas hill country)

[Patrick Moore]

That is very nice! I'd ride that!

What exactly is the Q for the Logic crank on the 103 mm bb? I wonder if a Logic would save Q over the XD2 that I presently have.

Thanks.

On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 4:30 PM, stoker <thest...@comcast.net> wrote:

That's a timely post! A couple of weeks ago, I updated my Riv Custom from a 'classic' build (friction shifting, etc.) to a 1x10. Wolf Tooth 40T w/Sram Rival  10 speed (12x28). I ran a 103mm BB with the Ritchey Logic cranks. The chainline is perfect and it has a crazy low Q. I wish I had done this a while ago...

I also switched out the saddle to a C15. I really like it.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/107142884@N05/25519153624/in/album-72157637139677264/

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[Bill Lindsay]

It's probably not really "crazy low Q", by your definition, but it is probably a good 10mm narrower than your XD2.  While stoker is running the 110mm BCD early 90s version of the Sugino/Ritchey cranks, I'm running the mid 90s 94mm BCD version on two bikes.  Both are run as a double and both are on 103mm ISO taper BBs.  I'd have to measure to provide you the exact number you requested, but it's in the 145mm range.  It's not as narrow as a Compass Rene Herse or an old TA, but it is narrow in comparison to just about anything else that is current.  

According to my photo-notes, I was getting a Q-Factor of 155mm when I used a 113mm JIS-Taper BB with the same crankset, set up as a triple.  To first order going from 113 to 103 sucks 10mm from that, and going from JIS to ISO drops another 4mm or so.  So the setups I have now might be as low as 141mm.  Not crazy low in my book but a lot narrower than normal in 2016.  

[Philip Kim]

nicee, the 1x? drivetrain will also allow you to run fatter tires in the rear so also a plus.

was debating on getting a jones, but decided to put in for a hunq instead. looks awesome!

[stoker]

You are correct - I was lobbing out the term 'crazy low' to describe a Q factor that is narrow compared to 2016 normal. It measures 134mm. 

[Hugh Smitham]

Hi Mike,

I'm coming around to the merits of a 1xn drive. I believe on my custom I'll be going with a 1x11, I'd love to go 1x12 but Sram is the only game in town at the moment (and the price is prohibitive) if my memory serves me and I sort of favor Shimano. Why? Just a preference. My custom won't be ready till 2017 so Shimano has some time to get on the ball. 

You're Jones plus is indeed a sweet ride. I think Jeff has really figured out a lot in terms of geometry and the truss fork looks so cool. 

~Hugh

  Los Angeles, CA

[Philip Kim]

At that point wouldn't you want to just spend a hundred dollars more for a Rohloff? Just looking at the 1x12 SRAM prices, $420 for the cassette which is a quick wearing component seems steep. Even their driver body is almost $100 alone.

Rohloff would have more gears, weather sealing, and would last longer right?

[Hugh Smitham]

Phillip,

Yes I agree. And I've been considering a Rohloff. There are some downsides to a Rohloff as with all things. Off the top of my head 1. Weight in the rear. 2. Bar and shifter combo issues. 3. Expensive (which we have sort of covered) 

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

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[Matt P.]

I tried a Rohloff once on a test ride.  After lots of "internet research", I was convinced that the Rohloff was going to be awesome....the real life experience didn't live up to the hype.  The shifts were not very smooth, certainly not worth the expense and extra weight.

I am currently using a 1x8 set-up on my Hunqapillar.  It is geared with a 34-tooth chainring and a 12-32 cassette.  Seems to work well for me in hilly San Diego, though it does spin out on some downhills, in which case I just coast.

The one problem I used to have was losing the chain to the outside of the chainring when shifting to the higher gears.  Solved this by installing a bashguard where my big chainring used to be, and I also installed an N-gear Jump Stop to eliminate the chance of dropping the chain to the inside.

I have noticed that Sram seems to be putting out some new technologies for the 1x systems, such as chainrings with longer teeth to eliminate chain drops, and a rear derailleur that is designed to eliminate derailleur bounce and chain slap.  Has anyone tried out any of this new Sram 1x stuff?

https://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/1x-technologies

[Mike in WA]

+1 on the coasting downhills approach. It's pretty amazing how close to top-speed (AKA "fast enough") you can get when you tuck in your knees and elbows, get down good and low and just let gravity do the work. My days of riding 110+ gear-inch bikes to go 35 mph on steep descents for 1% of my mileage are over! I continue to be impressed by how much easier climbing is when you don't have to think about shifting at all, it's just "easier or harder?". 

[Patrick Moore]

Years of fixed gear riding have made me largely indifferent to high gears, so that even my derailleur bikes top out in the mid 80 inches -- top end (and low end) sacrificed for close ratios in the middle; an ideal gear pattern gives me ~5" jumps between 80" and 50", and the rest is gravy. 

FWIW, I've hit 37 in a 75" fixed gear (46/15 X 24.5"), and 46 in a 96" derailleur (48/12 X 24") gear (both at the bottom of hills; the 46 while chasing an upstart Land Rover). OTOH, maximum lifetime whoo hoo top speed was 50 mph, downhill and eastbound, with a howling, raging westerly, on a mountain bike, coasting. On the preceeding uphill I was pacing a stray cardboard box at ~ 20 mph.

[Chris Lampe 2]

Are you using a regular chainring?  I have a "narrow-wide" chainring, which means the teeth alternate between narrow and wide, just like the spaces in a bicycle chain.  I don't run a clutch derailleur and I've never lost my chain, although I don't do a lot of rough and tumble riding.  Many companies make these chainrings.  Mine is a 34t RaceFace.  SRAM 11-28 9-speed cassette, Deore R. Derailleur.

[Ron Mc]

You actually can be faster coasting downhill than by pedaling at your spin limit.  Your hub pawl friction losses are usually lower than the total friction losses in your drivetrain.  

[Patrick Moore]

Though I suppose that a high wattage pro rider can power him/herself faster down hill in a very big gear than he/she can coast, right? You certainly see pros in the big ring/small cogs on downhills, even if only to get back up to speed. I assume that, if you are strong enough and motivated enough, there is a real reason for a 53X11?

Patrick "not that it matters to me" Moore, coasting above 25 mph in abq, nm.

On Fri, Apr 15, 2016 at 9:06 AM, Ron Mc <bulld...@gmail.com> wrote:

You actually can be faster coasting downhill than by pedaling at your spin limit.  Your hub pawl friction losses are usually lower than the total friction losses in your drivetrain.  

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[Ron Mc]

Try it some time. Under the right conditions, you may feel yourself accelerate when you stop pedaling. Pros know that feeling, and you'll see them coasting some times, too.

[Patrick Moore]

I agree; I was just pointing out that the pros have a real use for those big gears. Me, mine top out at 90" max and usually less.

On Fri, Apr 15, 2016 at 2:31 PM, Ron Mc <bulld...@gmail.com> wrote:

Try it some time. Under the right conditions, you may feel yourself accelerate when you stop pedaling. Pros know that feeling, and you'll see them coasting some times, too.

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[dstein]

Just got finished setting up my Hunqapillar for 1x10 with a White Industries Eno 42t,11-42 sunrace cassette, and my existing 9 speed dura ace shifters (friction). Should give a 26-99" gear inch range. Haven't really ridden outside of a short neighborhood jaunt, but so far so good. A few build notes and issues:

1. I used the existing bottom bracket (I recently started a bottom bracket thread). White ind. calls for 113mm, Riv said it was likely there was a 107 or 110 in there. Tried it out and got enough clearance so kept it. Chainline isn't quite centered for the middle of the rear cassette, a tad off.
2. There wasn't quite enough clearance for the Shimano XT Shadow Plus RD-M786 dearilleur so I had the LBS add an extender thingy (there was a proper name for this but i'm not sure what it was)
3. we needed more clearance on the bar end pod to shift (more in the up position) so the LBS cut away at it a little bit
4. Hank and Frank's on College Ave in Oakland is awesome. There's a guy Benji there that has been helping me with my half baked projects with parts scoured from all over the web. I never get any flak. They're quick (same day or next in most scenarios), and cheap (i owe them some beers or tips or something). I feel like most other bike shops are judgemental of my dubious home mechanic skills, weird bikes and parts, and they also always seem to have a week or two long wait. Just a shout out.

After all that seems to be running great.

[dstein]

Forgot the pics link: https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B085idkMwoZhdk

[Matt P.]

dstein:

I will be curious to know whether you have any problems with dropping the chain using that White Industries chainring in your 1x10 setup.  The manufacturer says it's only for single speed gearing, not 1x, and those teeth look awfully short compared to the teeth on something like a Wolf Tooth chainring.

[Mike in WA]

Looking good! The extender thingy is called a Goatlink,made by Wolftooth. It's supposed to help with cassette life and smoother shifting, even if you don't actually need it. Also regarding Matt P's wondering about the WI ring, I've heard that clutch derailers alone can be fine for keeping the chain on.

On Wednesday, May 4, 2016 at 3:43:45 PM UTC-7, dstein wrote:

[ian m]

I used the White Ind Eno chainring on a 1x9 MTB setup (XTR rear der.) for a couple years and never dropped a chain