New Sugino Crankset

[reynoldslugs]

There was a posting a couple weeks ago about a new crankset from
Sugino - - a 110/74 double, IIRC.

Have these hit the market? If anyone knows how to get one, it would
seem perfect for the Roadeo I am building.

Any info much appreciated.

[Michael_S]

I think you are referring to the new Sugino Mighty Tour? Very nice
but a little pricey.

http://www.benscycle.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=10478&currency=USD

~Mike~

[reynoldslugs]

here is a snip from the original thread - my apologies for starting a
new thread.

http://www.suginoltd.co.jp/japan/ox801d_main_japan.htm

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.sugino...

If you look towards the bottom where it describe chain ring size, it
can come with
52T-36T
50T-34T
48T-34T / 48T-32T
46T-36T / 46T-34T / 46T-32T / 46T-30T
Q factor reports as 145mm, same as a Shimano double, low enough for
me.
Price is not cheap, close to $400. That is not ideal. But if you
look at other cranks out there, not too bad.

On Aug 2, 11:16 am, Michael_S <mikeybi...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> I think you are referring to the new Sugino Mighty Tour?  Very nice
> but a little pricey.
>

> http://www.benscycle.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id...

[William]

If you mean this one:

http://www.suginoltd.co.jp/english/ox801d_main_english.htm

Nobody here on the board knew of how to get it or how much it would
cost. Could be $300, could be $700. I have no clue. I think you'd
have to talk to an importer who deals with Sugino or a friend who
could try to buy one for you in Japan. The website suggests that they
should be available by now, at least in Japan. Rivendell had talked
about bringing in the Mighty Tour, which would also look great on a
Roadeo:

http://www.suginoltd.co.jp/english/product_crank_td4_silver_english.htm

I called Riv HQ to ask about it. Miesha said they were going to get a
few, and I could put a deposit on one. It was pretty expensive, like
$300 or something. I did not do it, since what I really wanted was a
compact double that would take something closer to a 30. I imagine
you could get Riv to sell you one of those Mighty Tours. Or ask them
if they would find out about pricing for the fancy one.

On Aug 2, 11:06 am, reynoldslugs <be...@perrylaw.net> wrote:

[William]

I just called Riv and talked to Mark. They sometimes get big orders
directly from Sugino. Like a few times a year. The rest they
backfill from Merry Sales. Short answer is that there is no mechanism
to special order one Sugino crankset from Rivendell direct to Sugino.
It would have to be something that Merry Sales already imports, which
I'll assume they do not. If Merry Sales will sell it to Rivendell,
they'd happily sell it to you, but so would any retailer that has an
account with Merry Sales.

[William]

Sorry to bully the thread, but I also called Merry Sales. They don't
import it, and don't know what Sugino products they will add in 2011
until after Interbike in September. After Interbike, if they've
decided to bring that model in, then they'd be in the pipeline maybe
by Spring 2011. Obviously no hints at all about pricing. I'd be
floored if it was under $500.

[bfd]

On Aug 2, 11:42 am, William <tapebu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry to bully the thread, but I also called Merry Sales.  They don't
> import it, and don't know what Sugino products they will add in 2011
> until after Interbike in September.  After Interbike, if they've
> decided to bring that model in, then they'd be in the pipeline maybe
> by Spring 2011.  Obviously no hints at all about pricing.  I'd be
> floored if it was under $500.
>

If Merry/Riv or anyone else price this crank at $500, they might as
well forget it. The market for this crank is way too small for that
kind of price. The only people willing to pay that kind of price want
lightweight and perhaps carbon. Neither of which applies to this
crank.

If there is any thoughts to selling this crank at a "competitive"
price, it should be in the $150-200. There's no reason why this crank
should be more expensive than say the Sugino Alpina sold by VO.
Anything more and it is non-competitive. Good Luck!

[Michael_S]

I think I'm waiting for the VO copy of the TA Pro 5 crankset.
Supposed to take a 28 or 30 small chain ring. and hopefully under $200
smackers.

That fancy smancy Sugino crankset uses an external BB... not something
I would want.

~Mike~

[William]

Those Gran Cru cranks are slick and much more retro in look. Too bad
for me that Chris K insists I can't tell the difference between
172.5mm and 170. They should be available any day now. 46/30 is
going to be the right thing for a lot of things.

[pruckelshaus]

I agree completely. No 172.5 makes it a non-starter for me, otherwise
I would be very interested in a pair. I respect Chris for what he's
doing for the Riv/VO/etc. aspect of the industry, but there are times
when he's wrong, and his stance on 172.5's is one of those times.

[Michael_S]

Works for me... I prefer the 175's. I feel like I climb better with a
longer crankarm. I'm a little concerned about Q factor though. I
prefer something a little wider.
~Mike~

> > On Aug- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Boogarich]

You may also want to look at this crank from Shimano:
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes//Product_10053_10052_502567_-1___

Of course, you will need to use the Shimano Hollowtech bottom bracket
but this crank is 50/34 and has crank lengths available in 172.5 mm.

This crankset is now on sale at Nashbar for about $210.

Take care,

Aug 2, 11:06 am, reynoldslugs <be...@perrylaw.net> wrote:

[JoelMatthews]

Seems some of you ought to check out the TA Carmina. I am going with
a 172.5 with the 110/74 double spider for my 650b Rando. Later if I
want a triple I can swap spiders and go either with the 110/74 triple
or 94/58. JIS taper.

[William]

The TA is a fantastic option at least for me. 50/34 compact doubles
are almost literally a dime a dozen these days. To try out the
compact double thing I bought a square taper Campy Mirage for $30 on
ebay, NIB. The key things for me are:

comes in 172.5
takes a 29 or 30 tooth small ring
looks appropriate for whatever bike I am running
doesn't completely break the bank

The TA is a great option, but the pieces really do add up in price

$250 for arms
$90 for a spider
$84 for a 46 ring
$42 for a 30 ring

That's $466 without a bottom bracket. Add a Phil Wood BB and some tax/
shipping and we're talking a $700 chunk. I'm sure it's worth every
penny it costs, but that's a lot of dollars.

[bfd]

On Aug 4, 8:04 am, William <tapebu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The TA is a fantastic option at least for me.  50/34 compact doubles
> are almost literally a dime a dozen these days.  To try out the
> compact double thing I bought a square taper Campy Mirage for $30 on
> ebay, NIB.  The key things for me are:
>
> comes in 172.5
> takes a 29 or 30 tooth small ring
> looks appropriate for whatever bike I am running
> doesn't completely break the bank
>
> The TA is a great option, but the pieces really do add up in price
>
> $250 for arms
> $90 for a spider
> $84 for a 46 ring
> $42 for a 30 ring
>
> That's $466 without a bottom bracket.  Add a Phil Wood BB and some tax/
> shipping and we're talking a $700 chunk.  I'm sure it's worth every
> penny it costs, but that's a lot of dollars.
>

$700?! Wow, that is a lot of money. Hey, if you got it, go for it!
However, another alternative you may want to consider is the White
Industries VBC crank:

http://www.whiteind.com/cranks/roadcranks.html
VB

VBC = variable bolt circle so you can run anywhere from a 24t up to
38t for the inner ring; and 38t up to 52t for the outer ring. Or you
can run it as a single!

With a 46t and 30t rings, the cost is around $285:
http://www.ride-this.com/index.php/white-industries-road-vbc-cranks.html?source=googleps

It also comes in both polish silver and black! Good Luck!

[William]

Those White VBC's have been on my radar for quite some time, also. My
big hangups about those include fear about the flexiness of a
chainring with no spider supporting it, and fear of being completely
out of luck down the line with a proprietary chainring format on the
big ring.

> With a 46t and 30t rings, the cost is around $285:http://www.ride-this.com/index.php/white-industries-road-vbc-cranks.h...

[James Valiensi]

And,
Don't forget the Middleburn 2x9.
http://www.mtbtandems.com/

Cheers!

> --
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James Valiensi, PE
Northridge, CA
H818.775.1847 M.818.585.1796

[J Thurow]

Or DaVinci, http://www.davincitandems.com/comp.html#cranks.

James Thurow

StL Mo

[JoelMatthews]

> $700?! Wow, that is a lot of money. Hey, if you got it, go for it!
> However, another alternative you may want to consider is the White
> Industries VBC crank:

William includes the cost of the bottom bracket and the tax. No
matter the crankset, you will need a bottom bracket. If you buy the
TA from Peter White, no taxes unless you are in New Hampshire.

You can also save money buying less expensive chain rings. TA
chainrings are more expensive than most. They are also much better
made and will perform better and longer than most other brands. If
long lasting performance is of value, spending a few dollars more up
front makes sense.

The beauty of the TA Carmina is its flexibility. Being able to change
spiders allows a lot of configurations not available with other
cranks.

> With a 46t and 30t rings, the cost is around $285:http://www.ride-this.com/index.php/white-industries-road-vbc-cranks.h...
>
> It also comes in both polish silver and black! Good Luck!- Hide quoted text -

[bfd]

On Aug 4, 12:04 pm, JoelMatthews <joelmatth...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> William includes the cost of the bottom bracket and the tax.  No
> matter the crankset, you will need a bottom bracket.  If you buy the
> TA from Peter White, no taxes unless you are in New Hampshire.
>

Agree, but the price for the crankset without bb and tax was $466,
that's more than the $285 I cited for the White. Further, the place I
cited gives another 10% discount AND no tax! So the white crankset,
WITHOUT BB, is $256. Moreover, the place also had a free shipping
option. A little bit cheaper than the TA.

> You can also save money buying less expensive chain rings. TA
> chainrings are more expensive than most.  They are also much better
> made and will perform better and longer than most other brands.  If
> long lasting performance is of value, spending a few dollars more up
> front makes sense.
>

Agree, I have TA rings on one bike - expensive, but good stuff! I
would put it in the same category as Campy rings! In fact, TA rings
may be better! Still, Sugino and many others made very good rings that
last a long time too.

> The beauty of the TA Carmina is its flexibility.  Being able to change
> spiders allows a lot of configurations not available with other
> cranks.
>

Since the William was talking about a double with a 46/30 ring combo,
that comes in 172.5mm, the White would fit that too. In fact, you
could get a double with a 52/24 if that's what works for you. Good
Luck!

[William]

I threw in a nice Bottom Bracket on the TA Carmina simply because
earlier in this thread we were comparing the Sugino OX80ID which comes
with a bottom bracket. When I guessed out of thin air that the OX80ID
would probably cost more than $500, bfd said that would price them out
of the market. I was just pointing out that some people would and do
spend $700 for a crank system that is not carbon. I am not currently
in the market for parts in that price tier, either, so $500 would
price me out of the market, too.

My ideal would be for the $115 XD2 or the Mighty Tour to just come in
a 94/58 configuration. I could experiment with a lot of things with
that foundation. I see no technical advantage for compact doubles to
have chosen the 110/74 format over the 94/58. Both are well
established standards. You can find rings for both easily. 94/58 is
obviously superior if you want to run a compact double for off-road or
loaded riding. I sincerely doubt there is any significant difference
in stiffness or weight. 110/74 probably 'won' just on looks or some
other whim. It's particularly frustrating to me since Sugino used to
make 94/58 cranks. I have two sets of Sugino/Ritcheys and they are
nearly the perfect crankset for me. I'd really love to get a set of
the old Sugino Mighty 9000 from ~1995. Those things were sweet!

[Garth]

Bilenky sells the Carmina complete for a bit less. It was
significantly less, but they've raised their prices.

I have mixed feelings about the Carmina, as I recently bought one.

First, the BB sizing is soup du jour. You'll never know what it's
going to need until you actually get it. Forget anything you've read
online. Forget it. My 185mm arms take a 113mm BB for a 160mm Q on a
Bombadil(measured accurately on digital calipers about 10 times) On a
bike with more ring clearance, you could probably use a 110mm or even
107mm. You don't need a Phil BB, I'm using a Shimano UN54. I little
heavier, but I care not.

Second, the first one I received was crooked beyond acceptance, about
1.5- 2mm of deflection. I troubleshooted it and it was either the
spider or the arms. I shipped it back to Bilenky, who ordered another
spider, and it was crooked too. It was likely improper machining of
the arm. They sent everything back to their distributor, and the
finally received a straight one. This took about 5-6 weeks.

Third, the rings. If you're using a 10 speed setup, it may be okay.
For 7-8 speed setups, forget it. The rings, with all the ramps and
pins, make for a limited number of cogs available to use in each ring.
3 for the small, 4 for the mid, 5 for the big. I swapped the rings out
for regular good ol' non pinned rings. Even then , I needed to use
some micro spacers to get good clearance between rings. The small ring
required a longer spacer too.

Fourth, an annoying clicking sound from either the BB or the interface
of the two. This is the second crank that has been noisy. My Zephyr
creaked with a UN72, but it eventually went away. This sound is
different, more clicking, and it's definitely from the BB area. I
must say I'm no fan of cartridge BB's, the three I've used have all
been noisy. With cups and cones, I never heard one noise.

Other than that, I love the crank. I mean..... it spins, holds the
rings, and hasn't broken, what more could a guy want? A quiet one I
suppose.

If anyone gets one, make sure it's straight before you go riding it.



I had considered, and still am , a Surly crank. Yeah, outboard
bearings are what they are, but no BB is a panacea. The Q is only 6mm
more than the Carmina with a 47.5mm chainline spindle.


For you guys needing regular length arms, don't forget VO has three
new cranksets in the works, not just the ultra low Q Grand Cru.
http://velo-orange.blogspot.com/2010/02/velo-orange-cranksets.html
Listed here . http://www.voimports.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=29

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2010-08-04 at 12:58 -0700, Garth wrote:
> The rings, with all the ramps and
> pins, make for a limited number of cogs available to use in each ring.
> 3 for the small, 4 for the mid, 5 for the big.

I don't understand. How do ramps and pins reduce the number of
sprockets available?

[JoelMatthews]

> Fourth, an annoying clicking sound from either the BB or the interface
> of the two. This is the second crank that has been noisy. My Zephyr
> creaked with a UN72, but it eventually went away. This sound is
> different, more clicking, and it's definitely from the BB area. I
> must say I'm no fan of cartridge BB's, the three I've used have all
> been noisy. With cups and cones, I never heard one noise.

I can think of no reason why a crank would cause clicking. Carmina is
not a BB. If the problem is with the BB, get another BB. As long as
it has JIS taper it will work with the crank. I am using mine with a
White Ind. B.B. I don't have the bike yet, but the builder has said
nothing about noise.

> Third, the rings. If you're using a 10 speed setup, it may be okay.
> For 7-8 speed setups, forget it. The rings, with all the ramps and
> pins, make for a limited number of cogs available to use in each ring.
> 3 for the small, 4 for the mid, 5 for the big. I swapped the rings out
> for regular good ol' non pinned rings. Even then , I needed to use
> some micro spacers to get good clearance between rings. The small ring
> required a longer spacer too.

Perhaps this is a reference to index shifting? I use friction.

> new cranksets in the works, not just the ultra low Q Grand Cru.http://velo-orange.blogspot.com/2010/02/velo-orange-cranksets.html

[Michael_S]

I just bought used/clean silver S-works 94 bcd crankarms for $28 on
EBAY. I figure I can put on some nice chainrings for $70 and have a
46-30 double for a lot less. ( at least that's my plan... I'll see how
it comes out.)

There is also the Davinci for about $220, but they are hard to get.

~Mike~

[Garth]

I use 7sp friction shifting Joel. I've never used indexed shifting.
If you look at a regular non pinned chainring compared to the pinned
ones, you'll see the ramps are set so high, close to the teeth, that
your range of use is limited. I was told I'd have no issue with using
a 8sp chain with these ..... oops ..... live and learn.

At this point I don't know if it's the BB or the crank, or the
connection of the two at the tapers.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2010-08-04 at 13:26 -0700, Garth wrote:
> I use 7sp friction shifting Joel. I've never used indexed shifting.
> If you look at a regular non pinned chainring compared to the pinned
> ones, you'll see the ramps are set so high, close to the teeth, that
> your range of use is limited. I was told I'd have no issue with using
> a 8sp chain with these ..... oops ..... live and learn.

Are you going by what you were told or by actual experience?

Is this supposed to be specific to just this one crank? I'm using
ramped and pinned rings on quite a few bikes and I've experienced no
limitation on what rear sprockets I can use.

[JoelMatthews]

> If you look at a regular non pinned chainring compared to the pinned
> ones, you'll see the ramps are set so high, close to the teeth, that
> your range of use is limited. I was told I'd have no issue with using
> a 8sp chain with these ..... oops ..... live and learn.

I have TA Chainrings on all my bikes. I believe my chains are all 8
speed Wipperman. I have no problem with shifting on any of them.

> At this point I don't know if it's the BB or the crank, or the
> connection of the two at the tapers.

Are you sure the BB is JIS taper? Assuming it is, there should not be
any wiggle to cause a click.

[Garth]

A Shimano UN54 BB is JIS for sure.

This experience is from setting up my Bombadil of recent. Bilenky
told my I'd have no issue using an 8sp chain, but like I said, the
chain rubs on the rings as I described. With a 7 speed FW, one should
be able to use at least 4 cogs in the small ring, 6 in the middle, and
5 in the large. The middle was horrible, the chain would rub on the
ramps of the large ring in the 5th cog. The chainline is about 46.5mm.
Rings are 24/36/48. Non pinned rings like Sugino's have a nice
beveled edge, allowing for good clearance.

[Steve Palincsar]

So how does it do with a 9-spd chain?

[Garth]

It made no difference ..... I thought it may . Maybe it works best
with 10 speed chains, I don't know. I'm in a 7 speed world though. The
rings are Zephyr's ....labelled as 9/10 speed . One thing odd also
was the middle ring only sits halfway on the ledge of the spider. I've
never seen anything like it.... then again, I've not seen any new
cranks for 10 years.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2010-08-04 at 14:08 -0700, Garth wrote:
> I'm in a 7 speed world though

Not as far as chains are concerned, though: the chain you buy today as a
"7 speed" chain is the one that some years ago was labeled "8 speed".
Now they call it "6-7-8 speed".

[Garth]

Yes. I've never had any issue of chainring clearance before. I have
many of them still, and looking at the ring spacing of yesteryear, it
was wider than todays cranks. Especially Campy Super Record and
Victory cranks. My most recent crank, the Zephyr, has similar
clearance to the Carmina, but I didn't measure it , so these issues
had me scratching my head. I finally realized it was the ramps on the
rings. They are also about .5 -1.0mm thicker also than I'm used to.
The Zephyr rings look fantastic though, and I wish I could have used
them.

[Boogarich]

Have a look at the Sugino Alpina crankset available from Velo-
Orange:http://www.velo-orange.com/sualcr.html
This is a 48/34 compact crank for a square taper JIS 110mm BB. At
$170 it seems like a very good deal.

[rperks]

This may sound rediculous, but the middle ring may not be symetric,
and may do better flipped. On my 50-30 Ritchey compact set up on my
Roadeo I have the outer ring with the text/etching facing out, and the
middle ring has the text facing in or left. 9sp chain with an IRD
freewheel in the back. I initially had it with the text facing out
for both and the chain would not even ride on the middle ring withouth
grinding against the outer ring. Not a happy moment for a shiny new
set of TA rings. kind of odd but it runs like a dream now.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rperks1/4379837357/in/set-72157622875811028/

Rob

[Garth]

On Aug 4, 10:57 pm, rperks <perks....@gmail.com> wrote:
> This may sound rediculous, but the middle ring may not be symetric,
> and may do better flipped.  On my 50-30 Ritchey compact set up on my
> Roadeo I have the outer ring with the text/etching facing out, and the
> middle ring has the text facing in or left.  9sp chain with an IRD
> freewheel in the back.  I initially had it with the text facing out
> for both and the chain would not even ride on the middle ring withouth
> grinding against the outer ring.  Not a happy moment for a shiny new
> set of TA rings.  kind of odd but it runs like a dream now.
>

> http://www.flickr.com/photos/rperks1/4379837357/in/set-72157622875811...
>
> Rob
>


Thanks for the tip .... it doesn't sound odd to me at all. Whatever
works. My first thought was, what about shifting from the 24t ring?
Since there would be no beveled edge on the inside. Then I remembered
I still had a Specialized 36t ring from the 80's, and it had no
beveled edge at all, and it worked fine shifting from a 26t ring. So I
don't think the beveling adds anything.

If I knew how to remove those ramps on the big ring without damaging
it I'd do that too.

[rperks]

Think of the bevel as your micro spacer, shifting the center of the
tooth profile left. I think it is technically backwards, the pics on
peter white's page show the text facing out. But the 9sp chain was
wedging itself to a complete stop, one side against the large ring,
the rollers on the teeth, not wedged between the rings, as in when w
etry 9sp chaains on our old 7sp mtn stuff.

This is what makes the sugino 0X08ID so appealing, It gets old
tweeking vintage parts to work right with new ones. It is engineered
from the get go to take a wide range double, full range of lengths
from 160-175 and I do not have to scour the glode looking for a decent
price on quality chainrings.

Rob

[JoelMatthews]

> This is what makes the sugino 0X08ID so appealing, It gets old
> tweeking vintage parts to work right with new ones. It is engineered
> from the get go to take a wide range double, full range of lengths
> from 160-175 and I do not have to scour the glode looking for a decent
> price on quality chainrings.

No skin off my nose what anyone choses to buy. All my multi-speed
bikes have 6 -7 speed freewheels. All of them have new model TA
cranks up front with TA rings. Chains are all Wipperman, I believe 8
speed. Derailleurs are Campy front, Campy or Shimano rear. Shifters
are Simplex Retrofriction. I have not had a problem shifting.

> > it I'd do that too.- Hide quoted text -

[Garth]

On Aug 5, 11:19 am, JoelMatthews <joelmatth...@mac.com> wrote:

> No skin off my nose what anyone choses to buy.  All my multi-speed
> bikes have 6 -7 speed freewheels.  All of them have new model TA
> cranks up front with TA rings.  Chains are all Wipperman, I believe 8
> speed.  Derailleurs are Campy front, Campy or Shimano rear.  Shifters
> are Simplex Retrofriction.  I have not had a problem shifting.
>

Joel, How many cogs can you use per chainring without rubbing ? Is
yours a double or triple?

[JoelMatthews]

> Joel, How many cogs can you use per chainring without rubbing ? Is
> yours a double or triple?

I have a Zephyr Light double paired with a 6 speed freewheel on one
bike and a Carmina triple paired with a 7 speed freewheel.