Appaloosa Build Opinions

[Ted W]

Got my Appa on Monday, built it yesterday and commuted to work on it today. First impressions are that it's exactly what I had hoped for. The ride is amazing and it feels so plush while still remaining responsive; nimble yet stable. But I think it could still be better and I want to channel the wisdom of the group.

Currently, I have the bike built with drop bars (50cm V/O Randonneur). However, I know this frame, like many of the Riv frames, is really built with swept back bars in mind. Knowing this, I went with a stem that's about half my "typical" length. Unfortunately, it still feels like quite a reach to get on the hoods, not impossible, but not "normal". So, this is where my question starts:

Do I continue to try shortening the stem, say to maybe 30-40mm, or do I give in to my swept bar destiny and spring for some new bars? And if I go with sweeps, which bars do people like on the Appa? I have 65mm Tosco bars on my Gus and it's wonderful on that bike, but being that I don't want to be quite so upright (and there's not quite as much room) on the Appa. I was thinking of going with either Billie or Albatross bars. The two are so similar, however, that I'm having a hard time deciding between the two. I'm probably splitting hairs, as usual, but I'm genuinely curious to see what y'all think.

Cheers,

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Ted Wood < ted.l...@gmail.com >

[Brian Turner]

My limited experience with these bikes is that it's probably best to set them up the way they were designed. That reach is such an important factor in the comfort of a bike. I've been considering Joes and Sams and Altantises a lot lately, and if I were to choose a Joe, it would definitely have either Toscos or Billie bars. I can never imagine my Gus being comfortable with anything other than upright, swept-back bars (like my Toscos with a 110 stem), because the reach on the frame is sooooo long. Even classic models like the Atlantis and the Homer have changed so much with the extended stays and longer reaches, that I feel like you see less and less of these newer models with drops these days. Of course, there's many different body types and styles of riding to factor into it, so to each their own. Personally, I can't see myself owning another Rivendell with drop bars unless it was an older, more traditionally designed model.

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[Valerie Yates]

For me, when in doubt, try Albatross. Other bars can be hit or miss for me on different frames. The albatross never disappoints me. I just switched my Joe to from Chocomoose to albatross and they feel terrific - free and easy.  

I don’t see a benefit in using a really short stem to maintain drop bars on a Joe. 

[Johnny Alien]

If you don't want to be too upright and want to maintain a bit of the feel of drops I highly recommend the choco or losco bars.

[DavidP]

Albatross bars are pretty versatile  with a large range of positions and work well on roadish bikes that see some dirt. I've found that using a stem 30-40mm longer than my drop bar stem puts the grips of the Albatross bar in a more upright position than the tops of the drop bar, and moving my hands up to the bends feels like riding on the hoods. You can get even lower by moving into the hooks of the Albatross bar and bending your elbows.

A brake lever with a low profile clamp is nice as it lets you place your hands anywhere from the grips to the bends comfortably.

-Dave

[Doug Van Cleve]

Hey Ted.

I personally wouldn't run a super short stem, but those wide drops (and if I'm not mistaken relatively long reach) are making things worse for you.  A narrower modern bend, short and shallow drop bar would reduce the reach a fair bit, I think.  That said, I don't think any of the current super long chainstay RBW bikes are really suited for drops.  I just put together a JA that came with Albatross' and a Technomic, 9cm I think, and it feels too close and too tall in front.  It's a 51cm IIRC, whichever size is 650B, and the PBH size chart would have put me one size smaller.  I have a Choco-Moose waiting to go on it, I'm hoping that slammed it will give me more reach and lower bar height.

Doug

P.S.  You might consider flipped Albatross' as well, less reach and drop than any actual drop bar but still some...

[Ted W]

That's an interesting idea, Doug. I would have never considered flipping Albatross bars like that. Another option I've considered is Mustache bars with flat bar levers near the back instead of the typical road levers up front. It seems to me like those are similar, if narrower, than something like the Albatross bar but have a similar (slightly more accentuated) curve. And, like flipping the albatross bars, would give a drop instead of a rise... I might play with that idea a bit tonight.

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Ted Wood < ted.l...@gmail.com >

[Bill Lindsay]

In my opinion, the bars that the very first Appaloosas originally came with are still the best choice:  Choco-moose.  I don't understand the supply-chain realities, but here we are with Riv listing them at $210 and out of stock, but Blue Lug sells them for $85.20 and they are in stock.  There is no question that is the bar I would run on an Appaloosa.  

There are many flavors of handwringers, though.  One flavor of handwringer would wring hands over not being able to adjust the angle of a Moose bar.  Another flavor of handwringer would wring hands over an independent Choco bar being too flexy.  I'm the second kind, and LOVE the rock solid feel of the Choco moose.  When I had an Appaloosa, I needed to slam that stem to get them as low as I wanted.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[lconley]

$91 shipping charge for the Chocomoose from Blue Lug - total of $176.20 - big awkward box no doubt. They were in stock at Rivendell until a month or two ago. I had been thinking about trying some out, and then they were gone. I have fillet-brazed Boscomoose and Bullmoose, and I also love the solid feel of the one piece bar and stem combos.

Laing

[Ted W]

I have an old tig welded bullmoose-style bar I got from a scrap bike many years ago. Maybe I should give that bar a try given all the praise *-moose style bars are receiving here... Doesn't have much sweep, though.

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Ted Wood < ted.l...@gmail.com >

[Doug Van Cleve]

Hey Ted.

Not sure if you mean the OG Moustache or the Albastache, but I can tell you the OG requires a very short stem compared to drops.  It's because the main hand position is the full reach, there really isn't a good tops position like drops.  I gather that Albastache was designed mostly to shorten the reach...  Also, you can't use upright bar stuff on either of them so a flipped Albatross, Billie or Choco would seem to be best.

Doug

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[Eric Marth]

If between the Billie and Alba I'd go Billie, having run both. Much prefer the longer sweep back of the Billie and greater real estate for shifters, levers and the "hooks" position on the bars which for me is critical for climbing or spirited riding. 

[Johnny Alien]

Unless there is a reason to need the stiffness there isn't much of a reason to go with the moose version of the choco bar over a standard bar/stem combo. WAY more flexibility that way. Now if you need the robustness or stiffness that the moose version is very nice but it IS overbuilt or most applications with a huge trade off in set up options. But I agree they should be a solid first choice option for an Appaloosa.

[Johnny Alien]

I need to learn to proofread better considering I can't edit my posts here.

[Garth]

I take all claims of a certain frame supposedly being designed for a certain type of bar with a grain of salt as there are endless variables that come in to play. The first is the rider themselves, not just body proportions but flexibility, core strength and their ability to ride in a position suitable for them. Same with bars and stems, none are limited to or by each other, a given frame or rider. It's really up to the rider to play around with their bike as no one else experiences your bike from your unique perspective. I realize this is a online group to talk about stuff and throw ideas around though, so playing a game of "what if" inevitable.

All that said, I looked at the geo charts @ bikeinsights and I don't see the Appa as being particularly long in reach at all. I compared it to a bike I have, a 60 Bomba, and a road frame I do not have, the Sam. the sizes can be changed of course. The Bomba has 24mm reach than a Appa to for me running a drop bar would be easy. Ted says the reach was too far, but I'd want to know if the saddles were int he same relative position ? The Appa has a 71.5d STA and the Bomba a 72. That equates to about a 6.5mm difference. So if you didn't know and just set up your saddles on the same positions on the rails you wouldn't even know that one was further back by 6.5mm. While that may not seem like much, it does all add up.

If you do choose a swept back bar nay to the Billie in my opnion, it's too long rearward for your modest needs. An Albastache bar would also require a very short stem to get a shorter reach, so if you're gonna do that you may as try a shorter stem for the drop bars first. I've had both steel and AL Albatross bars and I prefer the steel as I use it with bar end brake levers and thumbshifters mounted around the inside of the curve so I have the entire bar free. It "may" have more rise than you want though. I tried it flipped before and it wasn't what I expected, I hated it. The top curve actually feels better with the rise up and I thought reverso may feel better, but it didn't. It looks cool, but felt awful. I have no experience with a Choco bar, but there's no way in h-e-double toothpicks I'd ever get a bar fixed to a stem. Again, looks cool, but offers zero flexibility. I don't suppose a Choco was made in steel, but I recall Blue Lug having a steel bar somewhat similar, a M356 ? Yeah, that's it ! https://global.bluelug.com/nitto-b356-m-s-bar-silver.html. Sure shipping is like $46 but you gotta look at overall cost, plus there may be other stuff you'd like. That looks like it's quite versatile to various stem heights and lengths and won't be a wet noodle. With thumbshifters at the top inside angled section and bar end levers you're free to find the best position at any given time. Needless to say, I'm highly biased against mtb levers as they're always in the way of the hands on the bars, and what's room on a bar for but to move your hands around ? DOH !

That's how it goes with asking for "advice" though huh, you get everyone's wishlist thrown at you as to what to do !  Ahahahahaha !!

https://bikeinsights.com/compare?geometries=646ed3ba6c60a90021cb6aa6,5b8578f448f3a30004789ad8,

https://bikeinsights.com/compare?geometries=646ed3ba6c60a90021cb6aa6,638a1581423463001c996236,

[Stephen]

I'm a joe appaloosa rider and I've had mine set up at different times with: Loscos, Riv Bullmoose, Nitto B802AA, and currently its got the classic albatross.

Pic for reference because all threads need bike pictures :)

I'm going to be devil's advocate and support shortening the stem and making your drops work. 

• First off its the most affordable and quickest solution, granted you are pleased with all other aspects of the handlebar setup. Also, you can get a pretty good idea of how much to shorten your stem since its the only variable changing. 
• Secondly, I selfishly want to see some more drop bar set up appaloosas. It seems really rare to do so, but lately I've been thinking it could work really well on the bike. I've seen more modern atlantis' with drops, and if anything the Joe is a slightly more road oriented version of that bike. List member Takahashi's Hunqapillar set up with drops also comes to mind.
• Thirdly, I don't think the Joe is so super long that it needs to be dedicated to swept back bars. This depends on your body's relation to your frame size of course, but on my 60cm, loscos + 11cm stem felt too short/cramped. For myself I've realized that if I go with swept back bars I need ones that sweep forward too, like the albatross.
  

Another opinion with regards to albastache/mustache bars: if you are thinking of running them with flat bar type levers I'd say scrap that idea and just get albatrosses. thats a case of using something in a way it wasn't designed to be used and i think youd be happier with albatrosses. I have a set of albastache and I'd say it works best with the classic road brake lever setup and bar end shifters, or possibly bar end brake levers. and as previously stated they require a slightly shorter stem than an equivalent drop bar setup.

And finally, to devil's advocate my devil's advocate... Rivendells are such fun bikes to experiment with different setups on. I love playing around with different handlebars and parts to spice up my bike and make it feel new again. Different handlebars are better at different things, and I've learned theres no perfect pick. I'm always gonna be swapping handlebars, sometimes to meet a certain situation, or just because I'm bored. if swept backs are calling your name, you might as well answer (i vote albatross or billie). 

[Stephen]

Also, I recommend looking at whatbars.com to compare handlebar shapes! 

[Ted W]

Well, if we’re sharing pictures. I don’t have any glamor shots yet but here’s what I’ve got right now (pardon the messy house, just moved).

From back to front:

* Velocity Cliffhanger rear wheel with Velo-Orange hub

* 10spd 11-36 cassette

* Deore derailleur 

* Shimano Alivio T4000 v-brakes

* B17 saddle w/ Randy Joe Fab waxed canvas cover

* Kaloy seatpost 

* Velo-Orange 1x crank with 42T ring

* 60mm stem

* Velo-Orange Rando bars

* Grepp bar cotton wrap

* Tektro aero levers

* Velo-Orange rack

* Cliffhanger rim, Shutter Precision PD-8 hub

Riding on 29x2.2 SimWorks Super Yummy tires

Bag by The Spindle ATL.

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Ted Wood < ted.l...@gmail.com >

[jaredwilson]

Slick build, Ted.

Although I just ordered a pair of Albatross bars yesterday for my Platypus I'm gonna throw in a vote for keeping the drop bars and going with a shorter stem. I would like to try drops on my Platy at some point but can't shake the visual aspect of drops on a "trip thru" frame, it just doesn't jive for me.

If you're on Instagram I recommend checking out user "aquietpractice" for images of his Atlantis 2 with what seems to be a 0mm Discord w(Right) stem, looks pretty comfortable to me.

Keep us posted with what you decide to do.

Best,

Jared

[J Schwartz]

I've done both on my Appa 

very short stem (I think it was an Analog stem) and shallow drops and then swapped things out for a more upright (but not too swept back) setup with the SimWorks fun-3 bars. 

The Appa does ride really well with a shorty stem and drops but ultimately I like it better in its current configuration.   I may be trying a longer stem and a Bille or Alba on it soon.

Shorty stem and drops:

And upright / upfront bars:  Personally think this bike riders much better this way

[David Hays]

I‘m still more of a drop bar guy.  So after initially setting my Appaloosa up with flipped VO Porteur bars I switched back to Nitto Dirt Drop bars..

David Hays

Williamsville, New York

On Jun 29, 2023, at 7:06 PM, J Schwartz <jasonas...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've done both on my Appa 

very short stem (I think it was an Analog stem) and shallow drops and then swapped things out for a more upright (but not too swept back) setup with the SimWorks fun-3 bars. 

The Appa does ride really well with a shorty stem and drops but ultimately I like it better in its current configuration.   I may be trying a longer stem and a Bille or Alba on it soon.

Shorty stem and drops:

<IMG_3654 2.JPG>

<IMG_3652.jpg>

And upright / upfront bars:  Personally think this bike riders much better this way

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/16944e4f-e68b-4aa2-bd10-140406a14959n%40googlegroups.com.
<IMG_0413.JPG><IMG_3654 2.JPG><IMG_3652.jpg>

[Garth]

Now that I see Ted's bike the picture is more clear. the VO bars are the Grand Randonneur version which is markedly different from the Nouveau version.  The difference in reach is 35mm, 120mm down to 85mm. I was going to mention this but I assumed you had the Nouveau version. That bar or one like it, as there are many shorter reach and relatively normal looking drop bars these days, plus a bit more narrow width @46cm(hoods) may be enough without a different stem. The Salsa Cowbell, Zipp Service Course 70 XPLR, and some Ritchey versions come to mind as having 68-70mm reach and very slight flares.

see here : https://bikepacking.com/index/gravel-bars/

[Doug Van Cleve]

Hey Ted,

Pretty sure your pic confirms my suspicion...  Those bars have quite a long reach and a fair bit of drop.  Even keeping the stem, something like a Soma Highway One in 44 or 46cm would shorten your reach and drop a decent amount:  https://www.somafabshop.com/shop/soma-handlebar-hwy-one-road-bar-4369?page=2&category=783#attr=3003,1855,2365 (I think ;^)

Doug

[Doug Van Cleve]

I clearly too WAY too long pondering my response, Garth nailed it here IMHO...

Doug

[brizbarn]

I started with SimWorks Little Nick bars with a 80mm 7 shaped stem on my Appaloosa. Decided to try Billie bars after a few months just to see if I would like a more upright position.  For me, they felt too upright, and made pedaling hard / standing up to climb feel awkward. I put the SimWorks bars back, but changed to a Nitto Periscopa stem and have been happy with that. 

[Drew Fitchette]

Hey Ted!

I’ve got a 53cm Atlantis with 100mm stem and albatross bars, and a near 0 mm stem with mustache bars on my Holdsworth. Both super different vibes, but I’m in Atlanta if you have a desire to check either of them out!

Love my Alba bars though!

[Chester]

Doug Van Cleve wrote:

Hey Ted.

Not sure if you mean the OG Moustache or the Albastache, but I can tell you the OG requires a very short stem compared to drops.  It's because the main hand position is the full reach, there really isn't a good tops position like drops.  I gather that Albastache was designed mostly to shorten the reach...  Also, you can't use upright bar stuff on either of them so a flipped Albatross, Billie or Choco would seem to be best.

Soma makes a Moustache bar with a 25.4mm clamp area and 22.0mm grip area so you can use MTB grips and brake levers on them:

3-Speed Moustache II Bar - Soma Fabrications

Soma has two Moustache Bar variants, the first "3-Speed Moustache Bar" being more similar to the OG Nitto version, but with the bar ends sweeping back a bit more.

3-Speed Moustache Bar - Soma Fabrications 

The second "II" variant of the Soma is the one with the 22.0mm grip area 

It's also different in having a shallower 35mm drop, whereas the first variant has a 60mm drop. (Which, in turn, is 10mm deeper than the 50mm drop of the Nitto.) This second version is also wider than their first version: 540mm vs. 505mm.

The Soma Fab Blog: Soma 3-Speed II "Moustache" Handlebars: For mountain grips, shifters and brake levers

So if someone was thinking of running an Albastache but wanted primary position to be in the bar-end grip area, with brakes there, then one could consider the Soma Moustache II with flat-bar/MTB levers. Drop won't be as super shallow as the Albastache, but only about 10mm less shallow (15mm shallower than the OG Nitto). And, of course, with the forward bends a more aggressively forward, while the bar ends sweep a little further back.

WhatBars.com has the Nitto and Soma Moustache Bars, and also the Albastache so you can see how the top-down profiles of each compare with each other.

Chester

SF Bay Area

[Doug H.]

Nice build. Off-topic alert. I recently changed my Clem to 1x and am using a 40T chainring and 11-48 cassette. I never use the 48 and think I could easily have gone with a 11-42. I'm interested to find out how you do on steep inclines with the 42/36 low gear with this setup.

Thanks,

Doug

On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 6:37:17 PM UTC-4 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:

[Eric Grim]

Focusing on the question, what kinds of bars do people like on their Appaloosas, I had Nitto North Road bars on mine for a while (now, my Grant Petersen-designed Soma San Marcos is wearing them).  I don't think Nitto is making those bars anymore, but there are lots that are pretty similar, including the Choco and Albastache.  I like them a lot.

Presently my Appaloosa has Nitto VS touring/butterfly bars.  I haven't ridden with them much yet.

I took some pics but couldn't figure out how to paste them into this reply.

Eric Grim

Spokane (just north of the Palouse, where the Appaloosa horse came from.)

[Dave Grossman]

I once heard an interview with Jeff Jones on how to set up his H-Bar and he mentioned using a stem short enough so that you can fully utilize his bars.  If the stem is too long, the curve at the front won't be used for more "aero" riding and if it is too short the grips won't be comfy either.

I've tried to apply this to my Hunq and I ended up running a 120/Albas on it!  I suggest trying a few setups on the Joe until you feel like you can utilize it in full.

[maxcr]

My Hunqa has a Discord Fingerling Stem with 70mm reach and a Jones Loop Bar (710) - it's a great setup

Max

[Tim Bantham]

Ted, I've got to say that Ana Purple color is one of the nicest colors I've seen on a Riv. Looks great! I'll offer my feedback as a former Appa owner. I've tried Albatross, Billie's and Jones Loop bars. Of those three the Billie's were my favorite. The Albatross didn't over enough hand positions. The Jones bars are very practical and make for great touring bars but I never could warm up to the aesthetics of the Jones. The Billie's are classic Riv and they just go perfectly IMHO.

I sold my Appa in the fall of last year and have had quite a few regrets about doing so. Oh well, maybe I'll try an Atlantis next time!

Tim

[Nick Payne]

When I bought an Appaloosa, I compared the effective TT length with one of my other drop bar bikes on which I was comfortable, and found it was about 30mm longer. So I used a 70mm stem vs the 100mm stem on the other bike. Everything seems fine - I've had it setup like that for a couple of years:

Nick Payne

[Mackenzy Albright]

Just to pipe in on CHOCO-MOOSE. I emailed Riv a while ago and they said they may not restock them ever and/or is yet undecided on the fate of the Chocomoose. I noticed they came into stock at bluelug and immediately ordered a pair and love them. They feel how I imagine moustache bars should feel when I imagined liking them. Sporty yet comfortable with lots of for and aft space. Sportier than the Bosco. more comfortable than a drop. They have become one of my favorite bars (even thought I think Loscos are more classically handsome like a porteur bar) functionally the chocomoose are fantastic on a long TT bike. (I got these bars as a potential option on a appaloosa/hunqalpillar like build from a local builder but have stuck on my clementine because I love them so) 

Given the lesser price - by the time you pay for bulky shipping it's still cheaper than Riv - plus you can order some fun blue lug merchandise since there will be lots of room in that box.  

[tellyoutoday]

I have a good condition choco-moose I could let go if the OP has any interest.