Glorius/Wilbury Mixte bike as a mtn bike

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David Estes

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May 17, 2007, 12:34:43 AM5/17/07
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All this talk about the Rivendell weekend and Jim's wish that the Bombadil would roll out got me thinking:  Would one of the Rivendell mixte bikes make a good mountain bike?  Is a mixte frame strong enough for trail riding over time?  Can it fit one of the big Pacenti type knobbies.  If so, it would be pretty cool to go that way, use it as a mountain bike (Huge standover clearance) and then retire it to a 'round-towner many years down the line.
 
Just wondering...

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Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

CycloFiend

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May 17, 2007, 10:55:06 AM5/17/07
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Grant forwarded a response that included a photo of Tetsu from Toyo enjoying
mixte handling through singletrack:

photo -
http://www.cyclofiend.com/Images/rbw/tetsu01.jpg

"The mixtes are strong enough for just about any trail riding (short of
things you're supposed to hike over), and have been ridden a lot on the
local trails. They're not mountain bikes, but a semi-skillful rider can do a
lot with them. Here's a picture of Tetsu Ishigaki of Toyo on a recent ride,
on a 56 Wilbury. He lead up most of the hills and all of the descents,
riding Col de la Vie tires (about 36mm). On Fatty Rumpkins he'd do even
better.

"The clearances allow up to about a 44mm tire. The latest Schwalbe fits, but
not by a lot (like a 700x25 in a carbon road fork!).

A month ago a reporter from Dirt Rag came by, and we went for a ride--she on
a 50 Glorius. I ride these trails actively (all the time...) and she left me
behind on the downhills. It didn't hold her back.

Mark here rides these trails on 32s and 33.333333333333333333333333333s
now--on a bike that by mountain bike standards is foolishly unsuitable.

The current stock of mixtes (last with the superfancy lugs that have a 50
percent reject rate in casting because of the fanciness; the ones our
Japanese painter refuses to paint, the ones we're never going to use again)
is getting low enough to consider another order, for delivery in 7 months or
so. Maybe we'll use a wider crown, or bent-out chainstays like the Atlantis
has. Not sure about that.

G"

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Larry Powers

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May 17, 2007, 2:38:23 PM5/17/07
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There has been much discussion on some of the boards regarding appropriate
trail. It has been said the Grant Peterson is a firm believer in high trail
bikes. I was wondering if there have been any atricles or interviews
published where Grant has commneted on the subject? I have searched the old
RBW site and not found anything.

I am seriously considering reraking the fork on my Rambouillet or purcahsing
a third party fork that will give me lower trail. Before doing so I would
be interested in reading anything on the Rivendell philosophy on this
subject.

Thanks.

Larry Powers

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Steve Palincsar

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May 17, 2007, 3:28:09 PM5/17/07
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Larry Powers wrote:
> There has been much discussion on some of the boards regarding appropriate
> trail. It has been said the Grant Peterson is a firm believer in high trail
> bikes. I was wondering if there have been any atricles or interviews
> published where Grant has commneted on the subject? I have searched the old
> RBW site and not found anything.
>

Indeed yes, there were a couple of articles in Riv Reader.

> I am seriously considering reraking the fork on my Rambouillet or purcahsing
> a third party fork that will give me lower trail. Before doing so I would
> be interested in reading anything on the Rivendell philosophy on this
> subject.
>

He did some tests, had some forks made, was surprised that the low trail
was rideable but didn't like it. He did not try it with a load on the
front, and he didn't try it with different width tires. His findings,
as far as he went, actually agree with what Jan and Alex and Mark found
in the BQ tests; but since he didn't try front load or wide tires, he
got the worst but not the best of low trail.


Bruce Herbitter

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May 17, 2007, 4:19:44 PM5/17/07
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>> I am seriously considering reraking the fork on my Rambouillet or 
purcahsing a third party fork that will give me lower trail.<<

I'm not sure how this would work. If you straightened the fork to lessen the rake, the length of the fork would grow, raising the head tube and effectively increasing the trail.

Head tube angle seems more important than fork rake for trail effect. The Rambo doesn't seem to have all that much. My 52 cm calc to a trail of 62.3, about center of the road bike range ( 50 - 70). There's a handy excel sheet you can get that gives trail, if you don't want to bother pushing your TI-35 buttons.  How low a trail are you looking for?



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Rene Valbuena

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May 17, 2007, 4:22:45 PM5/17/07
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Hi Larry,

I can't recall it now where I read it, but I think Grant prefers a trail of around 2 to 2.5 inches.

But what are the factors making you consider reraking the fork of your Rambouillet? Have you tried tweaking trail by using fatter tires and/or putting more or less weight on the front rack?

Hope this helps.

Rene

-----Original Message-----
>From: Larry Powers <lapow...@hotmail.com>
>Sent: May 17, 2007 11:38 AM
>To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: [RBW] Rivendell's Position On Tral
>
>
>There has been much discussion on some of the boards regarding appropriate
>trail. It has been said the Grant Peterson is a firm believer in high trail
>bikes. I was wondering if there have been any atricles or interviews
>published where Grant has commneted on the subject? I have searched the old
>RBW site and not found anything.
>

>I am seriously considering reraking the fork on my Rambouillet or purcahsing

>a third party fork that will give me lower trail. Before doing so I would
>be interested in reading anything on the Rivendell philosophy on this
>subject.
>

>Thanks.
>
>Larry Powers
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>More photos, more messages, more storage—get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail.
>http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507
>
>
>>

CycloFiend

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May 17, 2007, 4:35:12 PM5/17/07
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on 5/17/07 1:19 PM, Bruce Herbitter at fully...@yahoo.com wrote:

>> I am seriously considering reraking the fork on my Rambouillet or
purcahsing a third party fork that will give me lower trail.<<

> I'm not sure how this would work. If you straightened the fork to lessen the
> rake, the length of the fork would grow, raising the head tube and effectively
> increasing the trail.

Actually, it's a bit counter-intuitive. You put more bend into the fork to
_decrease_ the trail.

Here's a good graphic reference:
http://www.kogswell.com/geo.php

> Head tube angle seems more important than fork rake for trail effect. The
> Rambo doesn't seem to have all that much. My 52 cm calc to a trail of 62.3,
> about center of the road bike range ( 50 - 70). There's a handy excel sheet
> you can get that gives trail, if you don't want to bother pushing your TI-35
> buttons. How low a trail are you looking for?

A lot of this stuff has been exhaustively discussed on the iBob list. Head
Angle, Fork Offset (or Rake) and Tire Size all directly effect Trail.

http://tinyurl.com/2bobln

There is also a good thread started by alex wetmore (and his merry gang of
fork-benders) on fork re-raking.

http://tinyurl.com/2e7dow

Also, the most recent BQ has some road tests of bicycles with various trail
forks, compared under load.

-- Jim

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Steve Palincsar

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May 17, 2007, 5:54:28 PM5/17/07
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Larry Powers wrote:
>
> I am seriously considering reraking the fork on my Rambouillet or purcahsing
> a third party fork that will give me lower trail. Before doing so I would
> be interested in reading anything on the Rivendell philosophy on this
> subject.

I can't remember if it's been mentioned on this list or no, but Kogswell
has some low-trail replacement forks on order that will fit a
Rambouillet. They'll have lowrider mounts, eyelets and rack mount
fittings on top of the fork crown, like the P/R forks. They'll be
unpainted. Arriving sometime this month or next, I believe.

--
Steve Palincsar
pali...@his.com
Alexandria, VA, USA

Grant Petersen

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May 17, 2007, 6:18:54 PM5/17/07
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I'm not a believer in anything, actually, but trail is one of my least
favorite topics, because people learn about it and glom onto it and stop
seeing everything else that matters, too. More trail gives a bike a certain
degree of self-correcting when some kind of force jostles it. Trail (like
top tube length) can't be sanely discussed without also considering so many
other factors that work with it to affect steering (stem length, load, bar
height, rider weight and weight distribution, tire pressure). And once you
start "considering" all those things, the conversation turns nuts.
I believe, but not firmly, that high-speed safety is more important than
low-speed no-handed control. I believe infirmly that higher handlebars
lighten steering, and a certain amount of trail is important then. I wiggly
believe that low tire pressure affects resistance to turning.
Reraking a fork changes the axle-to-crown height, which changes the head
tube angle, and may affect brake reach some. The power of suggestion is
really strong, though.
G

>
> There has been much discussion on some of the boards regarding appropriate
> trail. It has been said the Grant Peterson is a firm believer in high trail
> bikes. I was wondering if there have been any atricles or interviews
> published where Grant has commneted on the subject? I have searched the old
> RBW site and not found anything.
>
> I am seriously considering reraking the fork on my Rambouillet or purcahsing
> a third party fork that will give me lower trail. Before doing so I would
> be interested in reading anything on the Rivendell philosophy on this
> subject.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Larry Powers
>
> _________________________________________________________________

> More photos, more messages, more storage—get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail.
> http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_
> HM_mini_2G_0507
>
>
> >
>

Larry Powers

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May 17, 2007, 10:16:57 PM5/17/07
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>From: Rene Valbuena <valb...@ix.netcom.com>
>Reply-To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
>To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: [RBW] Re: Rivendell's Position On Tral
>Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 13:22:45 -0700 (GMT-07:00)

>
>Hi Larry,
>
>I can't recall it now where I read it, but I think Grant prefers a trail of
>around 2 to 2.5 inches.
>
>But what are the factors making you consider reraking the fork of your
>Rambouillet? Have you tried tweaking trail by using fatter tires and/or
>putting more or less weight on the front rack?
>
>Hope this helps.
>
>Rene
>
Last year on BMB in the late going making a steep climb at night the front
end was fairly unstable. I was using a Boxy Bag. There have been many
discussions about low trail bikes handling loads on the front end better.
There has also been talk about re-raking forks to decrease trail. Also a
few people are now making replacement forks to decrease trail.

While all this sounds good I am now trying to determine the downside of
this. I find the handling of the Ramouillet to be just fine when the front
end is unloaded. I like carrying my things on a brevet in a handlebar bag
and I like the way a bike with a handlebar bag looks. Anything I can do to
maximize the handling of the bike with a handlebar bag I will consider.

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charlie

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May 17, 2007, 10:42:24 PM5/17/07
to RBW Owners Bunch
It seems to me that monkeying with something that has been thought
out, tested, marketed and insured by professionals should not be
messed with. On the other hand.......I changed out the fork on my old
Raleigh because I couldn't get a newer headset to fit. It actually
improved the steering but I am not sure how it affects the loaded
front bag stuff. I've loaded my hobo bag, chock full of junk and rode
it 20 miles on my city commute (gnarly) with no problems. My toe
intereferrance with the fender increased as my top tube is really
short. I think Raleigh jacked out the fork for clearance (hmmm) and
a one inch longer wheelbase but made it sluggish in handling. I think
we can get used to anything, unless its really bad engineering. I vote
to leave it alone or get another bike more suitable to carrying a
heavy front end load. Hey!....perhaps a Rivendell custom......... just
trying to boost sales!!! I'm saving for mine.

> > More photos, more messages, more storage-get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail.
> >http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_m...
> > HM_mini_2G_0507- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

David Estes

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May 17, 2007, 11:09:46 PM5/17/07
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Thank you o' conduit of the truth, the way, and the light!  Thou art truly the intermediary of the most high.  Cast down not the stones that thou bringeth from Mt. Diablo.
 
Anyway, that does seme to answer the basic question.  I was just wondering if 1) the mixte frame has the same strength as a diamond frame, and 2) if it can fit the big knobbies pictures.  Still a bit vague on #2, but it looks promising.
 
For those of you not following closely, I'm itchin' to buy a mountain bike.  I already was poking and proding about Atlantii and Salukii, now I have to consider Wilburyii.  Gee, thanks!
 
So do I have to tithe now?

charlie

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May 18, 2007, 2:56:23 AM5/18/07
to RBW Owners Bunch
Dave.....its a command to tithe, and a promise of blessings
accompanies it!

I'd wait for the new 650B Bombadil MTB! It reminds me of the 1983
Specialized Stumpjumper (or was it 84) anyway, the lugged one, with
the flat, really heavy, fork crown. Should have kept that bike. I may
buy one of those Bombadils over all the others since it looks like it
can take a lickin and keep on tickin! Heavy tubes and really sturdy
looking from the photos. Since I have road bikes already....heck I'm
all over the place, I want one of each model.

On May 17, 8:09 pm, "David Estes" <cyclotour...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/17/07, CycloFiend <cyclofi...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Redlands, CA- Hide quoted text -

David Estes

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May 18, 2007, 10:34:58 AM5/18/07
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So sayeth the law...
 
This does seem to be a relegion where redemption is based on works!
 
Agreed, the BBD is definately the for sure route.  I'm pretty sure I'll end up with one, but playing with thhe ideas of using X bike as a mountain bike that can also do Y.  The BBD is definately a purpose built bike, while an Atlantis w/ fat tires can end up doing other stuff down the road.  What makes it even harder is that I'm projecting what I may need three or four years down the line when my kids are older and I can take 'em up to the mountains and show them how I mis-spent my youth...
 
I suppose finding a used mtnbike would be the way to go to save money, but I LOVE new bikes, especially Rivendell ones.  You mentioned the original stump jumper, but I've got an itch for a '94 Bridgestone MB-3 non-suspension model.  Too bad they are such cult bikes as they are hard to find and pricey when you do!

 

charlie

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May 18, 2007, 11:46:40 AM5/18/07
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Yea Dave......I have an old Trek 850 that I streetified for my wife .
Its slightly too small for me but I can ride it, if I jack the seat
post up alot. I've been on a mental quest to end up with, a do it all
bicycle but really don't think I can get away with just one machine
for road and off road. I thought I might slowly sell off all my bikes
and buy an Atlantis or a AHH and ride it till the frame begs to crack.
Instead, I can see having a decent non-derailleur bike, a good sturdy
multi purpose road bike and maybe some sort of mountain bike,
probably non-suspended, since I'd like to be able to maintain it for
more than 5 years. Oh! and perhaps a folder and a recumbent too!
Drat! I like em all! Bike rich and everything else poor-charlie!

On May 18, 7:34 am, "David Estes" <cyclotour...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So sayeth the law...
>
> This does seem to be a relegion where redemption is based on works!
>
> Agreed, the BBD is definately the for sure route. I'm pretty sure I'll end
> up with one, but playing with thhe ideas of using X bike as a mountain bike
> that can also do Y. The BBD is definately a purpose built bike, while an
> Atlantis w/ fat tires can end up doing other stuff down the road. What
> makes it even harder is that I'm projecting what I may need three or four
> years down the line when my kids are older and I can take 'em up to the
> mountains and show them how I mis-spent my youth...
>
> I suppose finding a used mtnbike would be the way to go to save money, but I
> LOVE new bikes, especially Rivendell ones. You mentioned the original stump
> jumper, but I've got an itch for a '94 Bridgestone MB-3 non-suspension
> model. Too bad they are such cult bikes as they are hard to find and pricey
> when you do!
>

CycloFiend

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May 18, 2007, 12:43:02 PM5/18/07
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on 5/18/07 7:34 AM, David Estes at cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Agreed, the BBD is definately the for sure route. I'm pretty sure I'll end up
> with one, but playing with thhe ideas of using X bike as a mountain bike that
> can also do Y. The BBD is definately a purpose built bike, while an Atlantis
> w/ fat tires can end up doing other stuff down the road. What makes it even
> harder is that I'm projecting what I may need three or four years down the
> line when my kids are older and I can take 'em up to the mountains and show
> them how I mis-spent my youth...

> I suppose finding a used mtnbike would be the way to go to save money, but I
> LOVE new bikes, especially Rivendell ones. You mentioned the original stump
> jumper, but I've got an itch for a '94 Bridgestone MB-3 non-suspension model.
> Too bad they are such cult bikes as they are hard to find and pricey when you
> do!

I gotta say, in terms of non-suspended mtbs, the Bridgestones from the 89 -
93 era are pretty much beyond reproach. The MB's under Grant (there are
earlier ones with semi-cruiser geometry...) handle phenomenally well. That's
why the Bombadil project is interesting to me.

My first mountain bike was an '83 Montare (Japanese-made production bike by
Gary Fisher), which used the "early" style geometry. Hugely long wheelbase
and slack angles. Rode that bike all over hellengone.

http://home.comcast.net/~cyclofiend/bikes/Montare83.html

The handling of the Montare was solid and predictable to me - people
couldn't beleive I still rode it as long as I did. But, I think that was
because I just had so many hours on it. It would be interesting to build it
back up and compare it over the same trails to the MB.

-- Jim

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David Estes

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May 18, 2007, 9:10:24 PM5/18/07
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Ah hell, now you gotta' bring in use over time.  OK, fine, fine, fine, I'm set on a Bombadil.  Drat.

David Estes

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May 18, 2007, 9:13:55 PM5/18/07
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Don't I know it!  I used to have an MB-2 for about 10 years, then sold it due to not using it and it being too small.  Loved it and rode it lots!   Still glad I sold it, but in hindsight, I should have tried instead to trade it for one that fit better...

CycloFiend

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May 18, 2007, 10:25:50 PM5/18/07
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on 5/18/07 6:13 PM, David Estes at cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:

> Don't I know it! I used to have an MB-2 for about 10 years, then sold it due
> to not using it and it being too small. Loved it and rode it lots! Still
> glad I sold it, but in hindsight, I should have tried instead to trade it for
> one that fit better...

But, then you'd be stuck like me... knowing that I need to wear out the MB
before I can add the Bombadil... ;^)

David Estes

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May 18, 2007, 10:38:25 PM5/18/07
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On 5/18/07, CycloFiend <cyclo...@earthlink.net> wrote:

on 5/18/07 6:13 PM, David Estes at cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:

> Don't I know it!  I used to have an MB-2 for about 10 years, then sold it due
> to not using it and it being too small.  Loved it and rode it lots!   Still
> glad I sold it, but in hindsight, I should have tried instead to trade it for
> one that fit better...

But, then you'd be stuck like me... knowing that I need to wear out the MB
before I can add the Bombadil... ;^)

-- Jim

--

Cyclo...@earthlink.net



Oh yeah, rational though.  That hasn't been around for a good seven years...
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