Bike sizing by PBH, and wanting to give drop bars one more chance

[Eric Myers]

Up until about a month ago I rode 58cm sized bikes, in varying degrees of (dis)comfort.  Then I started riding my new significantly larger Sam Hillborne and realized all my older bikes are too small, so I've basically decided to replace one of my old bikes with something similar (mid-80s sport tourer) in a larger size, and sell the rest.  Now I'm trying to figure out that sizing.

 

I'm a little over 6'1" (187cm) and long in the torso but with only normal length arms, according to my dress shirts.  So to paraphrase an old joke, my arms aren't quite long enough to reach the handlebars, and I need an extra couple cm of handlebar/stem height to compensate.

 

My PBH is 89.5 cm.  According to Rivendell, my saddle height should be 78-79cm, and my starting frame size should be 62-64 cm (The Sam is different because it is an expanded frame).  For whatever reason, that saddle height is not comfortable and I tend to use something a couple cm shorter.  (Possibly because I keep my feet further forward on the pedal?)

 

On the Sam I have Albatross bars and love them, but would like to have a second bike with a different cockpit.  Stretching forward has generally not been as comfortable to me as riding in the drops against a headwind, so I am hoping that a larger frame, plus a short reach stem (I'd try one of Analog's w(Right) stems if they were cheaper), and short reach drops like the Soma Highway 1 bar might add up to something comfortable.

 

If you have a similar body challenges, or a preference for a slightly shorter saddle height, I'd love to hear about your thoughts and experience on bike sizing.  Ditto for drop bars.  I know I'm going to have to try riding a number of different bikes, but I'd like to start out trying the right size.

 

Best regards,

Eric

[Mat Grewe]

Hey, I am darn near the same proportions.  I cannot recall exactly, but my saddle height is somewhere between 74-76.  However, I use thin'ish soled shoes and pedal with my foot far forward on the pedals (midfoot).  The best advice I have found on figuring out saddle height is from Steve Hogg.  Both articles are on the long side, but there is great fit information in there.

Mat

[Dave Grossman]

You and I are almost the same proportions.  I have a surgically repaired L5-S1 which limits my comfort in the long and low position and similarly cleared house as well.

I recently picked up a 1980 Trek 413 off Ibob to build as a bigger, better fitting bike.  That is still in progress.  Hopefully that will work, but I really just want an all day slightly spry roadish bike to ride without fenders on pavement generally for hours at a time.  Drops included.  I recently bought a BMC Monstercross and didn't cut the steerer and put dirt drops on and I love it.  But I always ask for reach and stack these days as I know what wheelhouse I want to be in and if it doesn't fit I don't even bother approaching anymore.  A few years ago, I wouldn't have even thought about things the same.

[Lum Gim Fong]

Based on my experience:

Go by their PBH for frame size, and then size down one frame size if you are going to use drops and the TT and standover are only a 2cm diff or so on the smaller frame.

[Jeremy Till]

My experience closely mimics yours. I'm 6'3" with long legs, and I think the couple of times Riv has measured my PBH it's been somewhere around 95cm, for which they would recommend a seat height around 85cm, but over many years of riding I've arrived at 79-80 cm being the ideal seat height for me, depending on crank length. I think it's most because of tight hamstrings/glutes and preferring a midfoot riding position with flat pedals. 

When I bought my Surly LHT, I followed the Riv sizing recommendations and bought a 64cm one. Like your Sam, I originally had Albatrosses on it, then Boscos, and it was great with both of those bars. About 2.5 years ago I swapped in drops, and found that short-ish reach drops (Ritchey Biomax) with a short reach stem (70mm, +17 deg) worked well with that setup. I've since done some really long rides on that bike, including some 100+ mile days. I'd say it's probably one of the better fitting drop bar bikes I've ever owned. It doesn't hurt that in the same time I've done a fair bit of yoga, working on my core strength and flexibility. Recently, I've been thinking about swapping in some bars with a flatter ramp.  Noodles are a natural choice but I think their reach would be a bit much. I've got a pair of Salsa Cowbells in the bin that I'll probably try next. 

If I were designing a drop bar bike from scratch I could see that something with a shorter top tube might open up the reach a bit more and allow for longer bars like Noodles, Rando bars, or Maes Parallel bars. I've recently bought a used 64cm Rambouillet that might fit the bill (it's got a 60cm TT versus the LHT's 62cm), but it came with Albatross bars and I really like that setup. I doubt that I'd want to go to a smaller stock frame, as I don't think that I'd want the bars any lower than they currently are.  My eroica bike, a 1980's Medici racing frame, was 62cm and that required a short and high Technomic stem to get the bars up where I wanted them.  

[Andy Beichler]

My PBH is 92 and I can't imagine riding at the recommended 80-82 saddle height.  My hips rock terribly with it that high. I find about 77-78 works best for me.  I also have tight hamstrings and glutes.  I am curious if your new found yoga practice allowed you to raise your seat.

[Lum Gim Fong]

Alot of diffs people have could be due to differing femur and tib/fib and knee joint lengths.

Everyone is different and no one fit method will work with everyone I am guessing.

Riv says 71cm seat height for me.

Lemond and Selle Anatomica say like 72.5 or something around there.

I find my legs happiest in KOPS at 70cm seat height.

[Lum Gim Fong]

I use 41 Noodles or 40 Nitto M151F drops on 6cm Pearl or Tech deluxe stems.

The M151f bars are shorter reach and drop than Noodles, and easier to reach brake levers while in hooks.

[Brent P]

I'll add a data point since I learned so much from this group when I was trying to determine a fit. 6'2" here, measured 93 PBH. Reasonably tight hips and glutes which make drop bars not a fun experience on most bikes. Started with a new LHT spring '17 and followed Surly and LBS sizing with a 58. And, after LBS ignored my request and cut the steerer down before I picked it up, it was too small from day 1. I was new/returning to bikes and took me months of trial and error to figure that out. Then discovered Rivendell. One year ago a 62 Appaloosa arrived and it's been happiness ever since. Jones Loop on the Appaloosa. Nitto Kite bars (similar sweep to Jones) on a 64 MUSA Atlantis, and a 62 Hillborne joined the fleet this year. Sam alternates between Noodles and Albatross, depending on the whim of the week. With a 93 PBH height I've found Grant's recommendation of PBH - 11cm = saddle height hits damn close. I run 81-82cm saddle on all 3 bikes. Anything over 82 and hips are a rockin' and things fall apart. 

Listen to the Riv staff. Amazing fit they set me up with halfway across the country, sight-unseen. I trust 'em.

[tc]

Eric,

I'm 6'-0.5" and have a 90.5 PBH.  My saddle height for road riding is typically 1 cm less than what Riv recommends, but that's improved over the past year or two because I'm more conscious of stretching my hips, hams and glutes after a workout or a ride.  It really does help.  I ride a 61 Roadini with a 60mm stem and a 46 Noodle.  I had a 58 sam with an 80mm stem and a 46 Noodle.  Also have a 64 Toyo Atlantis with Ahearne+Map bar and it's very comfortable.

You're taller than me by a smidge, but compared to me, more of your length is in your upper body.  Even with shorter arms, I'd think a 58 Sam with drops and a short reach stem should fit you fine unless your lower back or posterior chain is shortened/very tight.

As for stems, you can get a shorty Technomic Deluxe from Ben's, down to a 50mm.  See them here.

Tom

[lambbo]

Sorry this is slightly OT, but hearing about tight glutes and hamstrings got me thinking --- I ride my Roadini with the longest possible leg extension, it's always been how I set up my bikes but I'd never had drops before, and I've been getting terrible cramps in my legs on anything above 40 or 50 miles... In the experience of those above who've dropped their saddles, does it reduce cramping?

More on topic, I'm also 6'1" with long legs ~91 pbh and ride a 61 roadini with a 100 stem that I just switched to 70 and I now wish was 60 but it works pretty well, I would recommend tilting your seat slightly down (very slightly) to reduce the amount you feel you're stretching forward. It may be obvious to others but, being new to drops, I rode with a saddle that had my hips tilting back and stretching my back out even more for too many rides.

Thanks! and good luck
A

[Eric Myers]

You guys are a treasure trove of information, thanks!
 
@Mat, thanks for the link to Steve Hogg; his functional method of determining height is the sort of method I use in my other athletic endeavors.
 
It also sounds like I share some other considerations with a number of you:  midfoot pedaling, thinnish soled shoes, and tight hamstrings/glutes.  I’ve been working on the hamstrings, but not very diligently.
 
My Sam is an older size 60, and I’m really happy with it.  The bike I’m trying to replace is a 23” 1984 Univega Gran Turismo made by Miyata, and I’m working on checking out a semi-local 25” 1984 Miyata 610, which is basically the same bike but different branding and a size up, which I’m pretty excited about.  If the seller’s measurements are correct, the top tube is about the same length but the standover height  is a little monstrous: I’ll have about ¼” plus shoe sole thickness.  That’s about an inch higher than my Sam, which I’m quite comfortable on, so hopefully it will work out.
 

Best regards,

Eric

[Deacon Patrick]

A,

The best way to move in endurance activities is to use big muscles (starting with the core, then to glutes/thighs/hamstrings) for the bulk of the work. A seat height that requires reach of the foot, extension of the leg too far (debatable how far that is, just go by feel) changes the power generation so it has to come less from big muscles and more from small muscles (calf and foot muscles). All of this is complicated for many riders by having weak feet muscles due to shoes that coddle (non-minimalist shoes, most shoes, have cushion, raised heel, support, etc, that weaken foot muscles).

I’d suggest intentionally do a ride with your saddle lowered so you ride with your heel on the pedal spindle. This will give you a feel for big muscles only. Not a long ride, but enough to get past the “this feels WRONG!” feel to “Huh, this is different, but not wrong.” What is missing is the small muscles giving refinement to your pedal circle via calf and foot, so the strokes will feel clumsy. Then, without raising the saddle, ride with your usual foot position on the pedal. This will likely require your knees remain bent and your foot level even at the bottom of the stroke. Feel how your body moves, where your power comes from. Initiate all movement from your core muscles first. In essence, you are doing a medium squat with each pedal stroke, instead of a toe rise. Keep this saddle position for several long rides, then play with various heights and see where you go from there and what works for you.

Also, if you want to increse core strength and hip/leg flexability, sit on the floor every chance you get instead of in a chair. WHen you get uncomfortable (every 3.5 seconds at first), shift positions. In three months you’ll be amazed how you sit cross legged and have a solid core.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Mat Grewe]

Don't discount Patrick's advice on floor living.  I don't do it much, but the little I have done helps immensely!  Another way to stretch those hamstrings requires a friend, but it is incredibly effective.

-Lay on your back on the floor

-Lift one leg up towards the sky (keeping it straight or only the slightest bit bent)

-Have your friend continue pushing that leg towards your upper body until you feel a comfortable deep stretch, then stop

-Hold that for 30-60 seconds (still keeping it straight or only the slightest bit bent)

    -Make sure your other leg remains on the floor as if you were still laying down normally

-Now is where the stretch really deepens!

-In that same deep stretch position, push your leg forward (away from your upper body) with as much force as you can while your friend resists your effort and keeps your leg in the same upward position

    -Keep battling with your friend in this position for 5-10 seconds

    -Again, make sure your other leg and butt remains on the floor

-Relax and have your friend gently push your leg further towards your upper body until you feel a comfortable deep stretch again

    -Hold for 30-60 seconds

-You will be amazed at how much further your leg stretches after the resistance session

-Do that resistance session a couple times on one leg, then switch to the other

Let me know if that doesn't make sense...

[Eric Myers]

Hi Mat and Patrick, I’m totally on board with the floor living.  In fact not being able to sit comfortably on the floor for long periods is what drove me to work on my hips/hams/glutes.  I’ve got plenty of stretches for them, and they’ve made a difference, but mostly I just try to spend more time on the floor playing games with my son.  I have been active in many sports most of my life (my night job is teaching fencing and historical martial arts), but about 5 years ago a metatarsal injury in one foot severely limited my mobility, and I’m still trying to come back from that :-(  I’m also combating a lifetime of tight hips – for example even as a kid I couldn’t snowplow on skis without pain, so I learned parallel stops, and even telemarking to get around it.

 

I set my current saddle height by aiming for the highest position which didn’t compromise smooth movement and cadence on one hand, or comfort on the other.  (I can be smooth in more than one style of pedaling, but keeping the foot level is the most comfortable.)  In all my research and teaching of sports I like to make sure students know how to occasionally reevaluate their “Goldilocks” point or zone by experimenting with extremes on either side of it.  I make sure they understand whether a certain action should come from the core or large muscles vs smaller, and how to keep good body structure.  But it’s still important to have a valid test condition, which is why I like Steve Hogg’s 3 minute test at a defined significant load to find where you start to lose fluency, and then back it off two steps, “because not every day is the best day of your life.”

 

I’ve been riding with Grip King pedals (on the bike I’m trying to replace) for a long time, keeping the foot level, etc, but I’ve wished for longer pedals so I will probably look into the Catalyst pedals that Mojo recommended.

 

I think my main takeaway from this thread is that my preference for a slightly lower saddle height is not really an outlier, and that there are known factors which seem to affect it.  I need to find a bike which is big enough to help me with handlebar height, but my saddle height is reasonably dialed in, so I shouldn’t go so big as to mess with that.

 

Best regards,

Eric

[Max S]

The Genius of Flexibility

https://www.amazon.com/Genius-Flexibility-Smart-Stretch-Strengthen/dp/0743270878

[Mat Grewe]

I also ride with Grip King pedals; you can actually lengthen them!  The "grip" part is held on to the body by M5 screws.  You can remove them, put in an aluminum spacer and use a longer screw to attach it all back together.  A cheaper experiment than springing for catalyst pedals.  

A few words of caution though...  

-Don't screw the screws on too tight as the threaded body is aluminum and can strip (happened to me).  If that does, I used a #12-24 socket cap screw (had to order online) as the threading is slightly bigger than an M5.  Big enough to bite new threads into the aluminum, but not too big so it still screwed in successfully.  Bonus, a 5/32 hex wrench is the same size as a 4mm!

-Be careful with how long of a spacer you use.  The longer the spacer, the more force is on the screw.  And use as thick of a spacer to spread the force.  I don't know the breaking point, but use some judgement here.  Anyway, even a 1/4" spacer on each end can make a difference in the overall feel.  I think that a 1/4" spacer on both ends would match the usable length of a Catalyst, which is 5" if I recall correctly (website says 5.6", but some of that is not usable length due).

-An aluminum spacer is great as it is cheap, but lighter than steel.  Nylon compresses and I had screws loosen a little on me because of that sponginess.  Nylon is cheap though and strong enough to experiment with for a few rides (in my experience at least).

That being said, I found that Grip Kings in their original length and slightly thicker shoes worked better for me.  I went from a 10mm super flexy sole to about 15mm slightly firmer, but still flexible, sole and have had no issues since.

[Eric Myers]

Mat, thanks for the tip about adding spacers to the Grip Kings!  Did you use the round spacers that look like a piece of really thick walled pipe, or did you drill through a block of aluminum for something that spans across both screws, or something else?

[Mat Grewe]

Hey, I just used round spacers, like you described, from a local Ace Hardware, that way I didn't have to do any extra drilling!