Was gonna buy a Riv but didnt...
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cm
Jul 21, 2011, 10:42:41 PM7/21/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I read/heard/ imagined recently that lots of people who buy Rivendells then go on to buy a custom/semi-custom bike from another company-- in most cases something that is comparable to an existing Rivendell model. For instance buying a Kirk instead of a Rodeo or Custom. I was curious if there is any truth to this, if anyone out there will admit to it, and what the reasons are. Something to the tune of "I got a ___________ instead of a Rivendell __________ because ___________".
I got a Terraferma single speed instead of a Rivendell SimpleOne because I got tired of waiting.
Cheers!
cm
Kelly Sleeper
Jul 21, 2011, 10:59:27 PM7/21/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Hmm. Ok I bought an AHH AND Loved it .. Still do.. Then bought a Bombadil and love it..
Bought my wife and Atlantis.. She loves then she got her Roadeo.
Bought my wife and Atlantis.. She loves then she got her Roadeo.
For me I would buy another one if I could thing of riding that isn't already covered by my AHH and Bombadil.
I would buy a 68cm Quickbeam if one came available.
When looking at custom bikes I was getting nothing I haven't already gotten. The new custom tandem I ordered is based on our Rivendell bikes.
Sorry it's not what your looking for. For me it's Rivendell or wannabe.. I'll take the real thing.
Kelly
Joe Bernard
Jul 21, 2011, 11:27:55 PM7/21/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I think once you've spent some serious money on one or more production Rivendells, the need for one more that's way more money, but not demonstrably "better", fades. Production Rivs are already handbuilt and super awesome. I'd be much more likely to fancy-up my production bike with a Joe Bell paint job than pop for a custom.
rw1911
Jul 21, 2011, 11:28:55 PM7/21/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
Apples and oranges.
A Kirk frameset will cost as much or more than a complete production
Rivendell.
That said - if someone is looking to spend that kind of money, a
custom Riv just becomes another option among the many custom builders.
As far as admissions, I bought my All-Rounder after my Kirk
Terraplane. The Kirk is an extremely nice bike, but lately I prefer
the AR simply because of how it's set up and the type of riding I've
been doing.
A Kirk frameset will cost as much or more than a complete production
Rivendell.
That said - if someone is looking to spend that kind of money, a
custom Riv just becomes another option among the many custom builders.
As far as admissions, I bought my All-Rounder after my Kirk
Terraplane. The Kirk is an extremely nice bike, but lately I prefer
the AR simply because of how it's set up and the type of riding I've
been doing.
Leslie
Jul 22, 2011, 12:58:47 AM7/22/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Maybe an analogy....
When I first started fly fishing, I bought the 'intro' level Orvis rod. Good rod, but, wasn't long until I was eyeing other rods, like Winston, Sage... Orvis had a lot more expensive rods, I didn't want to go that far up the scale, so I thought I could find better than the low-end Orvis stuff elsewhere for less. Thing about Orvis, they have nice rods and reels, and anything you get from them is usually top-notch in function and aesthetics; however, I will say, some of their other items, like clothing, or associated gadgets, they find decent, good gear, and either relabel it, or just sell it too, but, usually at a noticable mark-up over what you could find it for elsewhere. Anyway, I ended up getting a G.Loomis Streamdance, which is still my favorite, my go-to rod for tailwater trout here. For smallmouth, ended up w/ another Loomis (an aside: Loomis is now owned by Shimano), and a Winston for my son. Thing is, I somehow got in my head that, Orvis was a good go-to company to get people into fly-fishing, but there were other companies that were focusing on just specifics [kind of like comparing LL Bean's encompassing catalog of about anything you could need, against Sage, with just rods, reels, and maybe just a few other things like a vest or a hat, etc.]. But as time went on, I started becoming more critical of other companies, and started appreciating small things about the higher-end Orvis rods, and ended up back buying my next couple of rods from Orvis... paid more for some of the rods than I ever would have believed I would have when I started out, but, I had learned to appreciate some of the nuances that come w/ the extra costs.
I hope Grant doesn't find this insulting or a bad thing, but I think of Rivendell as the Orvis of steel bicycles. [Is it ironic that I first learned of Rivendell while in my local Orvis shop?] There are some models that have been over the years that have brought people to Rivendell (thinking of the Bleriot, and maybe the Soma San Marcos will; and maybe the Sam Hillborne); and, every single thing that Riv sells is a good item (even if, there are some of them that I can find elsewhere for less); they sell so much more than just a bicycle, aside from frames and components, you have MUSA, stoves, sleeping bags, knives, tools, books, wax, soap, toys... I'm amazed at some of the cool things they have. And, likewise with my post-Orvis-intro, having gotten into Rivendell, I've ended up learning about other bikes that I'd never heard of before (Hampsten, Handsome, Vassago, Ragley, Singular, Bruce Gordon) [before Rivendell, I knew Trek, Fuji, Specialized, Cannondale, Giant (and my Nishiki), Schwinn, etc., but that's *that* level, not the same level as the aforementioned). I considered certain ones of those others, Kona, Surly, etc., but, in the end, I worked myself up into justifying the cost of the Rivendell instead... so I've got a Rambouillet now, and, am also waiting on my next Riv frame to get in....
So, I suppose, I'd say, to work it off of your premise, I would state it as: "I was gonna buy a bike, and then talked myself into a Riv... then, was gonna get something else, and came back to Riv instead... "
(and, I hope y'all don't think I'm a complete loon now!)..... :)
-L
When I first started fly fishing, I bought the 'intro' level Orvis rod. Good rod, but, wasn't long until I was eyeing other rods, like Winston, Sage... Orvis had a lot more expensive rods, I didn't want to go that far up the scale, so I thought I could find better than the low-end Orvis stuff elsewhere for less. Thing about Orvis, they have nice rods and reels, and anything you get from them is usually top-notch in function and aesthetics; however, I will say, some of their other items, like clothing, or associated gadgets, they find decent, good gear, and either relabel it, or just sell it too, but, usually at a noticable mark-up over what you could find it for elsewhere. Anyway, I ended up getting a G.Loomis Streamdance, which is still my favorite, my go-to rod for tailwater trout here. For smallmouth, ended up w/ another Loomis (an aside: Loomis is now owned by Shimano), and a Winston for my son. Thing is, I somehow got in my head that, Orvis was a good go-to company to get people into fly-fishing, but there were other companies that were focusing on just specifics [kind of like comparing LL Bean's encompassing catalog of about anything you could need, against Sage, with just rods, reels, and maybe just a few other things like a vest or a hat, etc.]. But as time went on, I started becoming more critical of other companies, and started appreciating small things about the higher-end Orvis rods, and ended up back buying my next couple of rods from Orvis... paid more for some of the rods than I ever would have believed I would have when I started out, but, I had learned to appreciate some of the nuances that come w/ the extra costs.
I hope Grant doesn't find this insulting or a bad thing, but I think of Rivendell as the Orvis of steel bicycles. [Is it ironic that I first learned of Rivendell while in my local Orvis shop?] There are some models that have been over the years that have brought people to Rivendell (thinking of the Bleriot, and maybe the Soma San Marcos will; and maybe the Sam Hillborne); and, every single thing that Riv sells is a good item (even if, there are some of them that I can find elsewhere for less); they sell so much more than just a bicycle, aside from frames and components, you have MUSA, stoves, sleeping bags, knives, tools, books, wax, soap, toys... I'm amazed at some of the cool things they have. And, likewise with my post-Orvis-intro, having gotten into Rivendell, I've ended up learning about other bikes that I'd never heard of before (Hampsten, Handsome, Vassago, Ragley, Singular, Bruce Gordon) [before Rivendell, I knew Trek, Fuji, Specialized, Cannondale, Giant (and my Nishiki), Schwinn, etc., but that's *that* level, not the same level as the aforementioned). I considered certain ones of those others, Kona, Surly, etc., but, in the end, I worked myself up into justifying the cost of the Rivendell instead... so I've got a Rambouillet now, and, am also waiting on my next Riv frame to get in....
So, I suppose, I'd say, to work it off of your premise, I would state it as: "I was gonna buy a bike, and then talked myself into a Riv... then, was gonna get something else, and came back to Riv instead... "
(and, I hope y'all don't think I'm a complete loon now!)..... :)
-L
Brian Hanson
Jul 22, 2011, 1:12:54 AM7/22/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I had a steel road bike and mountain bike back in the day - early 80's Raleigh and early 90's Specialized. Then I went aluminum for a while. Bad move. When I wanted a comfortable "road" commuter, I looked for steel, and looked at the Surly/Salsa/Jamis bikes, as well as other "new steel" genre, but got hooked on the design/quality/philosoph of the Rivendells. Ended up with an AHH.
I think the thing my Riv has taught me is that it's really about more than the bike. I like the business that Grant runs, and really trust the folks at Rivendell. I'm sure there is a custom builder out there that cares as much, but does s/he also employ 15 other people and sell other great products? Will they be around and help answer silly questions? Do they have the great RBW community we have to bounce ideas/pics/stories off of? Every time I look at other bikes I still come back to the Rivs. They are special!
Brian (get a riv)
Seattle, WA
I think the thing my Riv has taught me is that it's really about more than the bike. I like the business that Grant runs, and really trust the folks at Rivendell. I'm sure there is a custom builder out there that cares as much, but does s/he also employ 15 other people and sell other great products? Will they be around and help answer silly questions? Do they have the great RBW community we have to bounce ideas/pics/stories off of? Every time I look at other bikes I still come back to the Rivs. They are special!
Brian (get a riv)
Seattle, WA
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Kris
Jul 22, 2011, 8:05:13 AM7/22/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
I was able to get a fully custom Coho frame/fork built in my home
state for almost 1/2 the price of a non-custom Riv. For one reason or
another less and less Riv frames are appealing to me. All things
considered ($$, double top tubes) the only frame left that I would
consider is the Atlantis.
state for almost 1/2 the price of a non-custom Riv. For one reason or
another less and less Riv frames are appealing to me. All things
considered ($$, double top tubes) the only frame left that I would
consider is the Atlantis.
Michael Hechmer
Jul 22, 2011, 8:08:58 AM7/22/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Two contradictory pieces of learned wisdom about this.
First, the ego wants wanting more than it wants having. So, as soon as we satisfy a want, the ego move on to wanting something else. If that weren't true our consumer driven economy would pretty much collapse. Three months after getting a new Riv road bike the owner will read in fantastic custom bike review in Bicycle Quarterly and the ego will start wanting again. Some people get swept away and some hang onto reality.
Second, virtually all product lines exist along a price / performance line, and somewhere that line has a sharp bend in it. Up to that curve additional spending yields significant advantages, after the curve the buyer has to spend increasingly large amounts of money to get less and less advantage (except perhaps to the irrational ego). For example, reducing the weight of a bike from 27 to 26 lbs without sacrificing strength cost very little, but reducing it from 17 to 16 lbs. will cost quite a bit more.
Rivendell bikes are pretty much positioned near the top of the break on the bicycle frame cost - performance curve. Unless you have some special need, like an unusual body shape or unique high milage application it doesn't make a lot of sense to move up the curve on a new frame. But that is not universally true for all the other parts. Many of the components Riv supplies as stock are good parts with good cost - performance trade offs but are still closer to the bottom of the break in that curve. So the buyer would be much wiser to gradually upgrade components - hubs & rims, cranks and brakes. Over the years I have upgraded my stock Rambouillet - White hubs, Open Pro rims, White VBC crank, Paul's Racer M brakes. The bike is now lighter, stronger, more responsive, and much easier to maintain.
Now all I have left to do is ride the bike and control my ego.
Michael,
take care of Self; it's one of a kind and irreplaceable
SteveF
Jul 22, 2011, 8:48:52 AM7/22/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
I currently own three Rivs (a Heron Road, a Rambouillet and a
Quickbeam) and I'd have a hard time parting with any of them. Having
said that, I did recently sell my Saluki in favor of a similar custom,
with the geometry tweaked more to my preferences.
Every new Riv model seems to get a 1/2 degree slacker seat tube angle
than the last. (excepting sporting models like the Roadeo*) This
works well for lots of folks, especially them that use a Brooks
saddle. However, since I don't use a Brooks and I tend to run my
saddle a good bit further forward than many Rivvers (as recommended in
a professional fitting I had done a couple of years ago.) this
progression has made it tough for me to get comfortable on most of
Rivs current models.
The stock models also seem to have gradually gotten a bit beefier
which makes them feel a little dead to me, a 150 pound high-cadence
spinner.
I loved my Saluki but even with my saddle shoved all the way forward
on a zero set-back Thompson seatpost, it wasn't really working for
me. My custom replacement will have a somewhat lighter tubeset and a
steeper seattube. The front end geometry is lifted more or less
intact from my 650b Quickbeam (which shares it's geometry largely with
the Rambouillet as I recall) I hope it'll ride and handle much like
my older Rivs, with the cush and all road capability that I've come to
appreciate from the fat 650b tires that fit my Saluki. (I literally
handed the builder a set of 650b wheels with Hetres mounted and a pair
of fenders to fit them and said "build it around these.")
I also like suspension on my mountain bikes so I'll probably never own
a Riv trail bike...
*If the Roadeo wasn't a near spot on blend of my two 700c Rivs, I'd
definitely be inclined to get one. In fact I thought about selling
both and replacing them with one, but they both carry considerable
sentimental value for me so that's not likely to happen. (the Heron
was my first ever Riv and the Rambouillet was a gift from my
significant other) Plus the orange Rambly is just such an aesthetic
home run that I would have a real hard time parting with it...
Quickbeam) and I'd have a hard time parting with any of them. Having
said that, I did recently sell my Saluki in favor of a similar custom,
with the geometry tweaked more to my preferences.
Every new Riv model seems to get a 1/2 degree slacker seat tube angle
than the last. (excepting sporting models like the Roadeo*) This
works well for lots of folks, especially them that use a Brooks
saddle. However, since I don't use a Brooks and I tend to run my
saddle a good bit further forward than many Rivvers (as recommended in
a professional fitting I had done a couple of years ago.) this
progression has made it tough for me to get comfortable on most of
Rivs current models.
The stock models also seem to have gradually gotten a bit beefier
which makes them feel a little dead to me, a 150 pound high-cadence
spinner.
I loved my Saluki but even with my saddle shoved all the way forward
on a zero set-back Thompson seatpost, it wasn't really working for
me. My custom replacement will have a somewhat lighter tubeset and a
steeper seattube. The front end geometry is lifted more or less
intact from my 650b Quickbeam (which shares it's geometry largely with
the Rambouillet as I recall) I hope it'll ride and handle much like
my older Rivs, with the cush and all road capability that I've come to
appreciate from the fat 650b tires that fit my Saluki. (I literally
handed the builder a set of 650b wheels with Hetres mounted and a pair
of fenders to fit them and said "build it around these.")
I also like suspension on my mountain bikes so I'll probably never own
a Riv trail bike...
*If the Roadeo wasn't a near spot on blend of my two 700c Rivs, I'd
definitely be inclined to get one. In fact I thought about selling
both and replacing them with one, but they both carry considerable
sentimental value for me so that's not likely to happen. (the Heron
was my first ever Riv and the Rambouillet was a gift from my
significant other) Plus the orange Rambly is just such an aesthetic
home run that I would have a real hard time parting with it...
Kenneth Stagg
Jul 22, 2011, 9:03:42 AM7/22/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
On Friday, July 22, 2011, Michael Hechmer <mhec...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Two contradictory pieces of learned wisdom about this.
> First, the ego wants wanting more than it wants having. So, as soon as we satisfy a want, the ego
> move on to wanting something else. If that weren't true our consumer driven economy would pretty
> much collapse. Three months after getting a new Riv road bike the owner will read in fantastic
> custom bike review in Bicycle Quarterly and the ego will start wanting again.
> Two contradictory pieces of learned wisdom about this.
> First, the ego wants wanting more than it wants having. So, as soon as we satisfy a want, the ego
> move on to wanting something else. If that weren't true our consumer driven economy would pretty
> much collapse. Three months after getting a new Riv road bike the owner will read in fantastic
> custom bike review in Bicycle Quarterly and the ego will start wanting again.
I'll admit that I was worried about this when I ordered my Mariposa.
I had never really been satisfied with a bike, I was always lusting
after the next one within months of getting my new one.
Not this time. I can honestly say that in the 7 years since I got the
Mariposa I haven't lusted after a new bike (other than a tandem - but
that's a different category.) The reason is simple: I can't imagine
what a different bike would do better for any use to which I would
want to put it. This was a revelation!
To bring this back on thread, I was actually considering an Atlantis
when I got the Mariposa but the super wide chainstay spacing meant
that I wouldn't have the gearing options that I was interested in
trying and the bottom bracket was higher than I needed. It wasn't
until after I got the Mariposa that Jan started writing about lower
trail designs and how they affected handling with a front load, but
Mike Barry already knew it and the Mariposa (which was designed for
the handlebar bag it always sports) combines low/medium trail with a
very low bb and a shallow seat tube to incredibly good effect.
-Ken
PATRICK MOORE
Jul 22, 2011, 9:59:58 AM7/22/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Well put and accurate! -- as I can verify from inveterate personal experience.
Patrick "now I want ..." Moore
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For professional resumes, contact
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When all the stars are dead.
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sjauch
Jul 22, 2011, 10:05:24 AM7/22/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
I currently own a Roadeo. I was considering a AHH but then decided to
go custom and got a Capricorn. For pretty much the same price as the
AHH I got custom geo and braze-on Racers. Can't comment on how it
rides yet as I haven't built it up. http://flic.kr/p/9KevBD
go custom and got a Capricorn. For pretty much the same price as the
AHH I got custom geo and braze-on Racers. Can't comment on how it
rides yet as I haven't built it up. http://flic.kr/p/9KevBD
Allingham II, Thomas J
Jul 22, 2011, 10:05:58 AM7/22/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Just fired off essentially the same reaction privately to Michael. This is a very thoughtful (and for me and my o'erweening ego, helpful to keep in mind) post.
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jimD
Jul 22, 2011, 10:10:17 AM7/22/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Back in the bubble days, I got a Riv Custom and a Hampsten Tournesol.
Douglas Brooks was the 'spiritual advisor' for the project. Steve was great
I ordered the Tournesol and the Riv at about the same time.
Received the Tournesol first and it is great bike.
For me though, the Riv is even better. I ride the Riv bunches more than the Tournesol.
I can't imagine a better bike than my Riv Custon. It is a wonderful riding bike and feels even better than
the Romulus that it took the place of.
I appreciate Rivendell for the great bikes they create and the type of business they have created.
For me there is no way a corporate entity like Orvis can compare to a small, unique firm like
Rivendell. I think of Rivendell as the Great Pacific Iron Works of bicycling:
Rivendell not only create bicycling hardware but espouse an approach to bicycling that has expanded
the world of bicycling for me.
-JimD
Peter Pesce
Jul 22, 2011, 10:44:23 AM7/22/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I don't think it's so hard to imagine buying a bike from someone other than Riv. Are we all really sharing our justifications for "cheating" on Riv with another company? :)
First, I am what seems to be an atypical Riv owner, at least based on this group. My Sam is by far the nicest (and, by a factor of 5, the most expensive) bike I have ever owned, and it's highly unlikely I'll ever be in the position to own another Riv, let alone a custom from them or someone else. My only other bike purchase in the last 20 years has been a LHT frame. After getting the Sam (which is my weekend, fun ride bike) I could no longer stand the horrible fit of the 20 yr old MTB that was my utility/commuter bike. I'm happy something like the LHT exists at its price point. I bought one of the 26" wheel frames and swapped over most of the old parts from the MTB.
I have been thinking about a new, very "roady" bike, and really want to stick with steel, but again am looking at something like a $400 Surly or Soma frame. One thing that has certainly rubbed off on me from owning my Riv, though - I'm honestly shocked when I see a frame that will only take 28mm tires without fenders!
Sorry that this is not exactly about the question you asked, but thought it might be good to add a perspective from the other end of the spectrum as well...
-Pete
First, I am what seems to be an atypical Riv owner, at least based on this group. My Sam is by far the nicest (and, by a factor of 5, the most expensive) bike I have ever owned, and it's highly unlikely I'll ever be in the position to own another Riv, let alone a custom from them or someone else. My only other bike purchase in the last 20 years has been a LHT frame. After getting the Sam (which is my weekend, fun ride bike) I could no longer stand the horrible fit of the 20 yr old MTB that was my utility/commuter bike. I'm happy something like the LHT exists at its price point. I bought one of the 26" wheel frames and swapped over most of the old parts from the MTB.
I have been thinking about a new, very "roady" bike, and really want to stick with steel, but again am looking at something like a $400 Surly or Soma frame. One thing that has certainly rubbed off on me from owning my Riv, though - I'm honestly shocked when I see a frame that will only take 28mm tires without fenders!
Sorry that this is not exactly about the question you asked, but thought it might be good to add a perspective from the other end of the spectrum as well...
-Pete
cyclotourist
Jul 22, 2011, 11:00:34 AM7/22/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I went in the opposite direction and bought a rigid Karate Monkey instead of a Bombadil. Complete bike for less than the cost of the frame, and I'm not worried about the thought of wrapping it around a tree up in the mountains. And I sold my Quickbeam to finance it! Although I kinda' regret letting that one go...
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Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA
...in terms of recreational cycling there are many riders who would probably benefit more from
improving their taste than from improving their performance. - RTMS
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Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA
...in terms of recreational cycling there are many riders who would probably benefit more from
improving their taste than from improving their performance. - RTMS
grant
Jul 22, 2011, 11:16:31 AM7/22/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
Not too insulting. In fact, Leslie, I have compared us to Orvis in
print already, I think within the past years, but I don't know where.
When I started fly-fishing at 11, my dad got me an LL Bean glass rod
starter outfit, and soon learned about Orvis, and a guy I knew (Hal
Jannsen, google him) fished an Orvis midge, and by the time I was 16
I'd saved my money $135) and got on of those. I kept on fishing and
eventually felt (as some do about us) that I'd "outgrown" Orvis, as I
learned about smaller brands that my 15-16 year old radar hadn't
picked up: Over the next many years I got a Winston, Leonard, Gary
Howells, and Bob Summers rods, which are all boutiquier, but no
better.
The fishing pole/bike analogy isn't perfect. It acknowledges that
littler-known brands are automatically assumed to be better in some
way than better-knowners (related, no doubt, to how the more
scholarly you are about any topic, the tinier the facts you know)---
but in the case of bikes, there's often a more substantial-fundamental-
even huge difference. Talking about this in detail can only make me
look petty or slick or bad in some way, so I'll limit the detail, but
I gotta say this:
Brazing skill matters, BUT it is impossible to evaluate brazing by
looking. Super sloppy brazing with overflow and overheating is
obvious, but underbrazing is impossible to detect (particularly in
frame joints other than the bottom bracket). There can be a fine line
of brass or silver around the edge of a lug, with no penetration into
the joint, for instance. And, sometimes when there's full penetration,
there may be what seems to be a small gap at the edge of a lug, as the
brazing material pulls in just under the lip, about 0.1mm or so, as it
cools. An amateur looker may see the gap and think, "Aha! Bad!" even
though the joint is thoroughly brazed where it matters.
It comes down to stuff about the joint that only the brazer is in a
position to know, at that point it's a matter of trust. Under-the-
radar builders are under less scrutiny, which itself doesn't ---
obviously -- have anything to do with brazing skill or thoroughness,
either in a bad or good way. It does mean that Rivendell has more to
lose by a screw-up than does an unknown. The stakes are higher for
us---with 14 employees whose jobs depend on us not screwing up.
We have had frames that I know (strongly believe, based on what I know
of them) to be 100 percent structural, but there's a superficial gap
in one spot, and we don't send them out into the world as perfect.
Usually we hold 'em and do nothing, or might build one up as a demo,
or an employee will get it ultra cheap.
Let's say there's a gap at a BB shell sleeve. Well, if there's braze
all the way around on the inside of the shell, you can bet this is a
suck-gap (where the braze is sucked in as it cools) and not a gap of
consequence. You can tell this because the braze is introduced outside
the shell and pulled through with the flame, so if it shows all around
inside, the only way it could've gotten there is from the outside, and
that's fantastic evidence of good penetration. (On outer frame lugs,
it's more a matter of faith). The unimportant gaps (suck-gaps) occur
at all price levels, with brass and silver. It doesn't make sense to
re-heat the joint to fill it in---you end up reflowing the braze,
reheating the steel, and for what---?--you degrade the joint in an
attempt to calm a worrier. Anyway, it's rare, and this is feeling like
a tangent.
Back to our frames versus their frames, or whatever. Look at
clearances and look for balance, top and side; bridge location, crown
hole location, tire and fender compatibility, bar-height relative to
saddle height. Those are substantive details that seem to be obvious
and easy, but getting them right is in fact are incredibly rare.
Finely filed lugs and paint and that stuff is good, but it often OFTEN
comes as part of a package that lacks the underlying important stuff
that goes unnoticed. Tandems that max out with 32mm tires. Road bikes
that max out at 28. Eyelets on bikes that don't have fender clearance.
Silver-brazed joints that paint up clean but pull apart. Impressive
tube decals and 28 hours of labor into frames that don't fit, and
aren't suited to the rider's needs.
There are lots of good builders---more by volume than there have ever
been, no doubt. BUT...the unknown gnome or even a reputation doesn't
for us or them guarantee anything. There's no good way to end this. I
BELIEVE I know our bikes, and I BELIEVE they pass our standards, which
I know to be high.
OK, back to watching the BORAF, aka TdeF.
print already, I think within the past years, but I don't know where.
When I started fly-fishing at 11, my dad got me an LL Bean glass rod
starter outfit, and soon learned about Orvis, and a guy I knew (Hal
Jannsen, google him) fished an Orvis midge, and by the time I was 16
I'd saved my money $135) and got on of those. I kept on fishing and
eventually felt (as some do about us) that I'd "outgrown" Orvis, as I
learned about smaller brands that my 15-16 year old radar hadn't
picked up: Over the next many years I got a Winston, Leonard, Gary
Howells, and Bob Summers rods, which are all boutiquier, but no
better.
The fishing pole/bike analogy isn't perfect. It acknowledges that
littler-known brands are automatically assumed to be better in some
way than better-knowners (related, no doubt, to how the more
scholarly you are about any topic, the tinier the facts you know)---
but in the case of bikes, there's often a more substantial-fundamental-
even huge difference. Talking about this in detail can only make me
look petty or slick or bad in some way, so I'll limit the detail, but
I gotta say this:
Brazing skill matters, BUT it is impossible to evaluate brazing by
looking. Super sloppy brazing with overflow and overheating is
obvious, but underbrazing is impossible to detect (particularly in
frame joints other than the bottom bracket). There can be a fine line
of brass or silver around the edge of a lug, with no penetration into
the joint, for instance. And, sometimes when there's full penetration,
there may be what seems to be a small gap at the edge of a lug, as the
brazing material pulls in just under the lip, about 0.1mm or so, as it
cools. An amateur looker may see the gap and think, "Aha! Bad!" even
though the joint is thoroughly brazed where it matters.
It comes down to stuff about the joint that only the brazer is in a
position to know, at that point it's a matter of trust. Under-the-
radar builders are under less scrutiny, which itself doesn't ---
obviously -- have anything to do with brazing skill or thoroughness,
either in a bad or good way. It does mean that Rivendell has more to
lose by a screw-up than does an unknown. The stakes are higher for
us---with 14 employees whose jobs depend on us not screwing up.
We have had frames that I know (strongly believe, based on what I know
of them) to be 100 percent structural, but there's a superficial gap
in one spot, and we don't send them out into the world as perfect.
Usually we hold 'em and do nothing, or might build one up as a demo,
or an employee will get it ultra cheap.
Let's say there's a gap at a BB shell sleeve. Well, if there's braze
all the way around on the inside of the shell, you can bet this is a
suck-gap (where the braze is sucked in as it cools) and not a gap of
consequence. You can tell this because the braze is introduced outside
the shell and pulled through with the flame, so if it shows all around
inside, the only way it could've gotten there is from the outside, and
that's fantastic evidence of good penetration. (On outer frame lugs,
it's more a matter of faith). The unimportant gaps (suck-gaps) occur
at all price levels, with brass and silver. It doesn't make sense to
re-heat the joint to fill it in---you end up reflowing the braze,
reheating the steel, and for what---?--you degrade the joint in an
attempt to calm a worrier. Anyway, it's rare, and this is feeling like
a tangent.
Back to our frames versus their frames, or whatever. Look at
clearances and look for balance, top and side; bridge location, crown
hole location, tire and fender compatibility, bar-height relative to
saddle height. Those are substantive details that seem to be obvious
and easy, but getting them right is in fact are incredibly rare.
Finely filed lugs and paint and that stuff is good, but it often OFTEN
comes as part of a package that lacks the underlying important stuff
that goes unnoticed. Tandems that max out with 32mm tires. Road bikes
that max out at 28. Eyelets on bikes that don't have fender clearance.
Silver-brazed joints that paint up clean but pull apart. Impressive
tube decals and 28 hours of labor into frames that don't fit, and
aren't suited to the rider's needs.
There are lots of good builders---more by volume than there have ever
been, no doubt. BUT...the unknown gnome or even a reputation doesn't
for us or them guarantee anything. There's no good way to end this. I
BELIEVE I know our bikes, and I BELIEVE they pass our standards, which
I know to be high.
OK, back to watching the BORAF, aka TdeF.
dougP
Jul 22, 2011, 11:29:39 AM7/22/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
Way back when, I was going to buy a custom Rivendell specifically for
touring, with S&S couplers and some other touring goodies. I didn't
have any special geometric or sizing needs. In the process of wrking
it all out, they said the bike would basically be a coupled Atlantis,
& how much did I really, really, want that feature? The logical
conclusion was to buy an Atlantis & get it coupled later if I missed
it.
8+ years later, the compelling need for coupling has faded. The
Atlantis still does everything I need in a bike. Never thought again
about a custom from anyone.
dougP
touring, with S&S couplers and some other touring goodies. I didn't
have any special geometric or sizing needs. In the process of wrking
it all out, they said the bike would basically be a coupled Atlantis,
& how much did I really, really, want that feature? The logical
conclusion was to buy an Atlantis & get it coupled later if I missed
it.
8+ years later, the compelling need for coupling has faded. The
Atlantis still does everything I need in a bike. Never thought again
about a custom from anyone.
dougP
dougP
Jul 22, 2011, 11:44:45 AM7/22/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
"'m not worried about the thought of wrapping it around a tree up in
the
> mountains."
On two wheels, the concept of a "total" becomes highly personal; none
the
> mountains."
of that "tree wrapping", David! You'd hit the tree long before the
bike.
dougP
> probably benefit more from
> improving their taste than from improving their performance.* - RTMS- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Steve D.
Jul 22, 2011, 12:00:03 PM7/22/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
Nicely stated.
I've considered getting a custom Riv, but am really, really quite
happy with my '03 51 cm Atlantis. It's mainly my commute bike, but now
that I'm between gigs, I'm enjoying it as my main (and only) bike for
daily rides around Seattle and occasional centuries before I start
getting into doing brevets after next season. That's it, one bike, and
a great one at that. Yeah, I'd like to get an AHH, but can't justify
the cost right now because I'm planning to upgrade the Atlantis with
new wheels with a Phil Touring hub on the rear, and a SON hub up
front, a Phil BB, Paul canti brakes, new Honjo fenders, an alternate
bag setup for brevets instead of my Baggins Hoss and panniers that I
use for commuting. Just replaced my Nitto Dream bars with the Nitto
noodle.
Anyway, as Grant has stated somewhere in a Reader or on their website:
"a frame is just a platform for parts." And I think I read somewhere
in BQ Jan Heine stating something to the effect that riding a bike
that is aesthetically pleasing to the eye is just as important as the
sum of its parts; it makes for an enjoyable experience.
Anyway again, after owning and riding my Atlantis for over eight
years, I'm really close to getting it dialed in for how I want it to
look and perform; I think it's a process of getting to know the bike
and figuring out what you need to make it comfortable for riding. The
more I get it dialed in, the more I love it, and the more I question
my ego when it comes to getting the AHH. We'll see who wins out. ;)
There are a lot of good builders out there, but when I was looking for
touring bike back in late '02, I discovered Rivendell doing a web
search, and their philosophy resonated with me and I was sold. And
don't have a complaint in the world about my decision. I source most
of my component (and ideas for components) from Grant, et al. They're
really great to work with--patient, knowledgeable, no B.S. After-sale
customer support makes a lot of difference when you buy something that
you think is important enough to have. And Grant has that down pretty
much pat.
-Steve DeMont
Seattle
I've considered getting a custom Riv, but am really, really quite
happy with my '03 51 cm Atlantis. It's mainly my commute bike, but now
that I'm between gigs, I'm enjoying it as my main (and only) bike for
daily rides around Seattle and occasional centuries before I start
getting into doing brevets after next season. That's it, one bike, and
a great one at that. Yeah, I'd like to get an AHH, but can't justify
the cost right now because I'm planning to upgrade the Atlantis with
new wheels with a Phil Touring hub on the rear, and a SON hub up
front, a Phil BB, Paul canti brakes, new Honjo fenders, an alternate
bag setup for brevets instead of my Baggins Hoss and panniers that I
use for commuting. Just replaced my Nitto Dream bars with the Nitto
noodle.
Anyway, as Grant has stated somewhere in a Reader or on their website:
"a frame is just a platform for parts." And I think I read somewhere
in BQ Jan Heine stating something to the effect that riding a bike
that is aesthetically pleasing to the eye is just as important as the
sum of its parts; it makes for an enjoyable experience.
Anyway again, after owning and riding my Atlantis for over eight
years, I'm really close to getting it dialed in for how I want it to
look and perform; I think it's a process of getting to know the bike
and figuring out what you need to make it comfortable for riding. The
more I get it dialed in, the more I love it, and the more I question
my ego when it comes to getting the AHH. We'll see who wins out. ;)
There are a lot of good builders out there, but when I was looking for
touring bike back in late '02, I discovered Rivendell doing a web
search, and their philosophy resonated with me and I was sold. And
don't have a complaint in the world about my decision. I source most
of my component (and ideas for components) from Grant, et al. They're
really great to work with--patient, knowledgeable, no B.S. After-sale
customer support makes a lot of difference when you buy something that
you think is important enough to have. And Grant has that down pretty
much pat.
-Steve DeMont
Seattle
cyclotourist
Jul 22, 2011, 12:11:21 PM7/22/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Hopefully I won't try out that bike-tree collabo too soon, although I seem to be doing my best!
Michael_S
Jul 22, 2011, 12:19:41 PM7/22/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I love how my Rambouillet rides and looks. It does great in the dirt and is fast on the road. The only Riv I'd probably switch it for is a Hilsen just to get the extra room for big tires as I love mixed terrain rides. But there are some bike features I wanted in other bikes that Riv does not currently offer. Low trail is one. 650B in the larger sizes another.
I was happy to discover that Rivendell bikes had slacker seat tubes, because otherwise that would be another reason to go custom. Even with a 72d STA, I have a 30mm setback and the saddle all the way back to fit and I could go further.
I did have a custom 700c Randonneur built and I'm very happy with it. I was able to chose braze on Paul Racers which are the best brakes I've ever used.
The upslope top tubes are deal breakers for me. I understand why they are made but I get over the look. I'd love to get a Hunqua with a level top tube and the angled middle tube. That would have to be a custom.
~mike
hobie
Jul 22, 2011, 12:42:59 PM7/22/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I think you are buying a Riv frame because of it's ride. Grant even says that if you absolutley need a custom they will design it for you using a custom frame builder. Nobillette,Waterford (present),Goodrich, Stark (past) I own a 58cm 650b Saluki Toyo and a 52cm Waterford Bombadil and can't imagine a custom Riv is going to ride any better. I did notice a big improvement in the Saluki's handling going from a budget wheelst to a handbuilt wheelset using Phil hubs. Rivendell is famous mostly for the frames ride quality. You would be better off spending more on upgrades of components than to invest heavy on a custom. I like the Jitensha studios bikes but have never been able to test ride one. Then again I never rode a Rivendell before buying one. I trusted a friends opinion and bought one,then 2 then 3,then 4. I've narrowed it down to 2 bikes for the type of riding I do in my neck of the woods. It took me a little time but no other company offers a complete line of frames to cover the many differnt ways one can use a bike. And to do it so well from one model to another.. Many have said that the most important compnents of a bike are: Frame,wheelset,tires. That is true for me Rivendell has a very loyal following for a reason.
Steve Palincsar
Jul 22, 2011, 12:51:56 PM7/22/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
On Fri, 2011-07-22 at 09:42 -0700, hobie wrote:
> I own a 58cm 650b Saluki Toyo and a 52cm Waterford Bombadil and can't
> imagine a custom Riv is going to ride any better.
> I own a 58cm 650b Saluki Toyo and a 52cm Waterford Bombadil and can't
> imagine a custom Riv is going to ride any better.
I haven't paid much attention to the range of choices available with Riv
customs. Perhaps you know: if you wanted either ultra-light OS, or
light gauge standard tubing, could you get it? If so, then yes, a
custom Riv /could/ possibly have a substantially livelier ride than any
of the standard bikes. I think most of the Toyo frames had OS 8/5/8 or
thicker as the tubing, but OS comes as thin as 5/3/5, and you would
surely notice that difference.
Bruce Herbitter
Jul 22, 2011, 4:29:08 AM7/22/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
This is my sentiment exactly. I don't think any custom could fit me better than my 52 cm Ram happens to fit. As it happens, I also love the ride of an older Road Std, so instead of buying a new frame, I'm spending what some frames cost to have that one repainted with a nicer level of finish.
On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 10:27 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:
I think once you've spent some serious money on one or more production Rivendells, the need for one more that's way more money, but not demonstrably "better", fades. Production Rivs are already handbuilt and super awesome. I'd be much more likely to fancy-up my production bike with a Joe Bell paint job than pop for a custom.
-
hobie
Jul 22, 2011, 1:12:01 PM7/22/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
Steve. Maybe you are correct about the livelier feel of lighter gauge
tubing. But will a lighter frame absorb rode shock like the heavier
gauge? Part of the reason I like my bikes is that when you do get them
up to speed they feel extremely stable. I didn't feel that way on the
Ramboullet that I owned briefly. The lighter gauge would definetly
help in climbing and sprints if you race.
tubing. But will a lighter frame absorb rode shock like the heavier
gauge? Part of the reason I like my bikes is that when you do get them
up to speed they feel extremely stable. I didn't feel that way on the
Ramboullet that I owned briefly. The lighter gauge would definetly
help in climbing and sprints if you race.
Michael Hechmer
Jul 22, 2011, 1:29:24 PM7/22/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Just to be totally upfront with everyone; my words about the ego wants wanting more than it wants having are lifted from Eckhardt Tolle. They just ring very true. I could also have quoted my good friend Zed, who, after decades of AA practice, is fond of reminding me: "Happiness consists of wanting what you have, not having what you want."
michael,
not to proud to admit that 90 degrees is too hot for this Vermonter to want to ride, and what I want right now is about a15 degree drop in the temperature.
Frank
Jul 22, 2011, 1:48:19 PM7/22/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
Well said Brian. I remember years ago when you were thinking about a
new bike and you came by the house to ride mine. We met through a
mutual work acquaintance, and I felt a bit odd in revealing that I had
a number of Rivendell bikes in the garage given that I didn't know you
that well (nor you I) - seemed like it might smack of excess. I recall
that you rode the Quickbeam, Saluki, and maybe the Romulus, and we
discussed 650B, single speed, and the rationale for the price of a
Rivendell and what you got for the money. I told you what I knew, why
I'd bought each bike, and I tried not to do too much selling, rather
letting the bikes speak for themselves. You ended up with a fantastic
AHH, and it's been fun to vicariously watch you explore equipment,
configurations, and techniques that exceed my breadth of experience
(e.g. that harlequin wrap thing).
When people ask me for bike advice, I always explain what I ride and
why, and then follow-up with some of the axioms from "tips for happy
riding"; there's no such thing as a bad bike. Rivendell's aren't
inexpensive, and they're most certainly not cheap, but they're what
I've chosen. It is about more than a bike. A Rivendell is an
investment in utility, function, form, in a way of doing business (and
the 12-14 people behind the business), and an entree to a community.
Since I bought my first Rivendell (Romulus #17, first batch) a decade
ago, I've been impressed with the company and the products, and I've
told that story when asked. Today I ride with friends who weren't
cyclists before, and when we meet I see Bleriots, Hilsens, etc., and
we often talk about "what's next". I don't "need" this many bikes,
but I ride them all, and I will until I'm too old to swing over the
top tube, or until my kids take them off to wherever.
Every once in a while I think about a custom. Each successive trip to
Portland, my original hometown, leads me to look afresh at Ira Ryan,
Tony Pereira, and Joseph Ahearn in particular. And while those guys
are doing some innovative, beautiful work, I come home and look at my
Saluki, AHH, and other bikes, and I'm satisfied.
new bike and you came by the house to ride mine. We met through a
mutual work acquaintance, and I felt a bit odd in revealing that I had
a number of Rivendell bikes in the garage given that I didn't know you
that well (nor you I) - seemed like it might smack of excess. I recall
that you rode the Quickbeam, Saluki, and maybe the Romulus, and we
discussed 650B, single speed, and the rationale for the price of a
Rivendell and what you got for the money. I told you what I knew, why
I'd bought each bike, and I tried not to do too much selling, rather
letting the bikes speak for themselves. You ended up with a fantastic
AHH, and it's been fun to vicariously watch you explore equipment,
configurations, and techniques that exceed my breadth of experience
(e.g. that harlequin wrap thing).
When people ask me for bike advice, I always explain what I ride and
why, and then follow-up with some of the axioms from "tips for happy
riding"; there's no such thing as a bad bike. Rivendell's aren't
inexpensive, and they're most certainly not cheap, but they're what
I've chosen. It is about more than a bike. A Rivendell is an
investment in utility, function, form, in a way of doing business (and
the 12-14 people behind the business), and an entree to a community.
Since I bought my first Rivendell (Romulus #17, first batch) a decade
ago, I've been impressed with the company and the products, and I've
told that story when asked. Today I ride with friends who weren't
cyclists before, and when we meet I see Bleriots, Hilsens, etc., and
we often talk about "what's next". I don't "need" this many bikes,
but I ride them all, and I will until I'm too old to swing over the
top tube, or until my kids take them off to wherever.
Every once in a while I think about a custom. Each successive trip to
Portland, my original hometown, leads me to look afresh at Ira Ryan,
Tony Pereira, and Joseph Ahearn in particular. And while those guys
are doing some innovative, beautiful work, I come home and look at my
Saluki, AHH, and other bikes, and I'm satisfied.
Seth Vidal
Jul 22, 2011, 1:57:16 PM7/22/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I have a lot of the same feelings as you articulate here. There are 2
things which hang me up recently:
1. I really wanna try out a low-trail bike for "the next bike". I'm
intrigued enough to want to try it for a while and I
completely understand that it is not riv's deal to do a low
trail-designed bike. So I have been looking around
for a production low trail bike. Right now it seems likely either a
pelican from boxdog or one of the boulder cycles. But If there was a
way to
relatively easily convert my romulus to a low-trail geometry without
butchering it, I would definitely investigate it.
2. tandems. Gotta have them..
-sv
rob markwardt
Jul 22, 2011, 2:02:03 PM7/22/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
The new stuff..custom or not...doesn't interest me that much (my
Rambo and Bleriot are truly all the bike I need). However, put this in
front of my face and the cold sweats begin....
http://cgi.ebay.com/1981-Eddy-Merckx-Corsa-Restored-62-cm-Complete-bike-/140579842367?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20bb36293f
Rob "I WANT that Merckx" Markwardt
Rambo and Bleriot are truly all the bike I need). However, put this in
front of my face and the cold sweats begin....
http://cgi.ebay.com/1981-Eddy-Merckx-Corsa-Restored-62-cm-Complete-bike-/140579842367?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20bb36293f
Rob "I WANT that Merckx" Markwardt
cyclotourist
Jul 22, 2011, 2:19:55 PM7/22/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Seth, you could get a custom fork made for a lot less to check out the low trail thing.
Could be a fun experiment!
--
Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA
Could be a fun experiment!
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Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA
...in terms of recreational cycling there are many riders who would
probably benefit more from
improving their taste than from improving
their performance. - RTMSSeth Vidal
Jul 22, 2011, 2:23:58 PM7/22/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 2:19 PM, cyclotourist <cyclot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Seth, you could get a custom fork made for a lot less to check out the low
> trail thing.
>
> Could be a fun experiment!
>
> Seth, you could get a custom fork made for a lot less to check out the low
> trail thing.
>
> Could be a fun experiment!
>
From where? By Whom? I'm completely made of ears if someone has a suggestion.
-sv
cyclotourist
Jul 22, 2011, 2:37:28 PM7/22/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Give Bilenkey or Royal H a call. Those are two East Coast builders that pop into mind. Bob Brown is in MPLS. MAP or Ahearne or another of the PDX builders. Heck, Nobilette might as well. Drop 'em an email saying what you want to do and find one that seems kinda' excited about it.
-sv
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Steve Palincsar
Jul 22, 2011, 3:15:02 PM7/22/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
On Fri, 2011-07-22 at 10:12 -0700, hobie wrote:
> Steve. Maybe you are correct about the livelier feel of lighter gauge
> tubing. But will a lighter frame absorb rode shock like the heavier
> gauge?
> Steve. Maybe you are correct about the livelier feel of lighter gauge
> tubing. But will a lighter frame absorb rode shock like the heavier
> gauge?
More flexible frames are springier, heavier gauge tubing is stiffer.
> Part of the reason I like my bikes is that when you do get them
> up to speed they feel extremely stable.
Stability is more a function of geometry than the gauge of tubing.
> I didn't feel that way on the
> Ramboullet that I owned briefly.
That's curious. I owned a Rambouillet for several years. Stability at
speed, especially downhill, was a defining characteristic of the bike.
> The lighter gauge would definetly
> help in climbing and sprints if you race.
Yes, I find lighter gauge, more flexible frames climb better for me. As
for springs, never happen. I've even given up trying to outsprint a
dog.
EricP
Jul 22, 2011, 3:53:00 PM7/22/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
Pretty sure Bob Brown moved to Wisconsin, although he is still
building bikes.
As to being "disloyal" will be painted guilty. Sold my Atlantis,
which was too small, and almost sold my Hillborne. Both in cases of
"want". Purchased a Surly Cross Check this year because I wanted a
bike that could be either multi-geared or single speed for commuting,
riding around, mood, whatever. Thing is, that particular model of
bicycle just works for my riding style. Shorter chainstays? higher
bottom bracket? who knows, but it goes where I want to and doesn't
seem to mind what I've done to it. Should also be a fine winter bike.
The other replacement is a Surly LHT in 58cm with 26" wheels. Liked
Grant's idea of an old mountain bike for general or even touring use,
but really wanted something similar to the Atlantis. And for winter
it easily handles 1.75" wide studded tires. Yes, the Atlantis could
have, but not sure I'da been comfortable with it in that role.
And now that the Surly is in single speed mode, am starting to get a
serious case of the Iwants for a SimpleOne. Just have to figure out
how to pay for it to make it happen.
Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN
On Jul 22, 1:37 pm, cyclotourist <cyclotour...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Give Bilenkey or Royal H a call. Those are two East Coast builders that pop
> into mind. Bob Brown is in MPLS. MAP or Ahearne or another of the PDX
> builders. Heck, Nobilette might as well. Drop 'em an email saying what you
> want to do and find one that seems kinda' excited about it.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Seth Vidal <skvi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 2:19 PM, cyclotourist <cyclotour...@gmail.com>
> probably benefit more from
building bikes.
As to being "disloyal" will be painted guilty. Sold my Atlantis,
which was too small, and almost sold my Hillborne. Both in cases of
"want". Purchased a Surly Cross Check this year because I wanted a
bike that could be either multi-geared or single speed for commuting,
riding around, mood, whatever. Thing is, that particular model of
bicycle just works for my riding style. Shorter chainstays? higher
bottom bracket? who knows, but it goes where I want to and doesn't
seem to mind what I've done to it. Should also be a fine winter bike.
The other replacement is a Surly LHT in 58cm with 26" wheels. Liked
Grant's idea of an old mountain bike for general or even touring use,
but really wanted something similar to the Atlantis. And for winter
it easily handles 1.75" wide studded tires. Yes, the Atlantis could
have, but not sure I'da been comfortable with it in that role.
And now that the Surly is in single speed mode, am starting to get a
serious case of the Iwants for a SimpleOne. Just have to figure out
how to pay for it to make it happen.
Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN
On Jul 22, 1:37 pm, cyclotourist <cyclotour...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Give Bilenkey or Royal H a call. Those are two East Coast builders that pop
> into mind. Bob Brown is in MPLS. MAP or Ahearne or another of the PDX
> builders. Heck, Nobilette might as well. Drop 'em an email saying what you
> want to do and find one that seems kinda' excited about it.
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 2:19 PM, cyclotourist <cyclotour...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > Seth, you could get a custom fork made for a lot less to check out the
> > low
> > > trail thing.
>
> > > Could be a fun experiment!
>
> > From where? By Whom? I'm completely made of ears if someone has a
> > suggestion.
>
> > -sv
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
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>
> --
> Cheers,
> David
> Redlands, CA
>
> *...in terms of recreational cycling there are many riders who would
> > > Seth, you could get a custom fork made for a lot less to check out the
> > low
> > > trail thing.
>
> > > Could be a fun experiment!
>
> > From where? By Whom? I'm completely made of ears if someone has a
> > suggestion.
>
> > -sv
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>
> --
> Cheers,
> David
> Redlands, CA
>
> probably benefit more from
Joe Bernard
Jul 22, 2011, 4:05:46 PM7/22/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I think Rivendell ownership generally works like this: If you didn't get a custom first, you probably won't. I think it is more likely that someone who has already invested big dollars in a custom will later pop for a less expensive production "second Rivendell", than a production first-timer will "move up" to a custom. This is for the reason I originally stated..once you've got a gorgeous Atlantis/Hunqapillar/Sam, etc. sitting in the living room, I think it would be hard to believe a custom would be "way better".
Those production owners are more likely to be drawn to a completely different experience from a builder who only does customs. An A.N.T bike with dedicated racks and a Rohloff hub, for example.
Joe "yes, I want a Hunqapillar and an A.N.T. with dedicated racks and a Rohloff" Bernard
Fairfield, CA.
Philip Williamson
Jul 22, 2011, 4:23:46 PM7/22/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
The last time I looked at the Boulder Bicycles website, they were
selling low trail forks for $300 or $350. I can't find them now; they
may be out, they may be in the online store, which is closed until
August 3, or it might be because the site is... retro.
I think it makes more sense to get a complete frameset from them, if
you have the funds. A new fork won't change the head angle of your
bike. Half a degree? It won't turn 72 degrees into 74, at any rate.
Some authorities indicate that it doesn't really matter how you get
your magic low trail number, but I don't believe it.
On the cheap: some older American touring bikes have low trail
geometries, but no one would ever mention that in a for-sale ad.
Philip
Philip Williamson
www.biketinker.com
On Jul 22, 11:23 am, Seth Vidal <skvi...@gmail.com> wrote:
selling low trail forks for $300 or $350. I can't find them now; they
may be out, they may be in the online store, which is closed until
August 3, or it might be because the site is... retro.
I think it makes more sense to get a complete frameset from them, if
you have the funds. A new fork won't change the head angle of your
bike. Half a degree? It won't turn 72 degrees into 74, at any rate.
Some authorities indicate that it doesn't really matter how you get
your magic low trail number, but I don't believe it.
On the cheap: some older American touring bikes have low trail
geometries, but no one would ever mention that in a for-sale ad.
Philip
Philip Williamson
www.biketinker.com
On Jul 22, 11:23 am, Seth Vidal <skvi...@gmail.com> wrote:
Lee Chae
Jul 22, 2011, 4:30:24 PM7/22/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Philip Williamson
<philip.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The last time I looked at the Boulder Bicycles website, they were
> selling low trail forks for $300 or $350. I can't find them now; they
> may be out, they may be in the online store, which is closed until
> August 3, or it might be because the site is... retro.
<philip.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The last time I looked at the Boulder Bicycles website, they were
> selling low trail forks for $300 or $350. I can't find them now; they
> may be out, they may be in the online store, which is closed until
> August 3, or it might be because the site is... retro.
Hi Philip. I saw those, too, and couldn't find them again. I do seem
to remember them being 1-1/8" threadless, though.
Happy Friday!
Lee
SF, CA
Rick
Jul 22, 2011, 6:05:42 PM7/22/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
I confess to a similar temptation/line of thought. After my second
Riv purchase (Atlantis), I realized the first (Bleriot) was on the
small side. My fault, not RBW's - my pbh measurement was off when I
got the Bleriot. I loved the Bleriot, and didn't want to part with it,
but was riding the Atlantis almost exclusively because of the fit
issue. Eventually, regretfully, I decided I needed to do something
about it.
But after staring at a few Riv options I started lamenting the lack of
current 650b Riv options in my size, an issue Michael alluded to. So
that opened the door to custom considerations, which I entertained
seriously. Near-daily minutes spent on the issue, looking at various
builders, ideas, etc. Not total OCD, but I thought about it quite a
bit, several months.
And along the way -- perhaps as psychological justification for the
impending expense -- I did come to think of my new project as taking
my bicycle "problem," as my significant other calls it, to another,
higher level.
Then after he posted here, Scott and I swapped Bleriot's: he had the
larger size I needed, and he took mine, a size down. And a remarkable
thing happened. I stopped thinking about customs.
Riv purchase (Atlantis), I realized the first (Bleriot) was on the
small side. My fault, not RBW's - my pbh measurement was off when I
got the Bleriot. I loved the Bleriot, and didn't want to part with it,
but was riding the Atlantis almost exclusively because of the fit
issue. Eventually, regretfully, I decided I needed to do something
about it.
But after staring at a few Riv options I started lamenting the lack of
current 650b Riv options in my size, an issue Michael alluded to. So
that opened the door to custom considerations, which I entertained
seriously. Near-daily minutes spent on the issue, looking at various
builders, ideas, etc. Not total OCD, but I thought about it quite a
bit, several months.
And along the way -- perhaps as psychological justification for the
impending expense -- I did come to think of my new project as taking
my bicycle "problem," as my significant other calls it, to another,
higher level.
Then after he posted here, Scott and I swapped Bleriot's: he had the
larger size I needed, and he took mine, a size down. And a remarkable
thing happened. I stopped thinking about customs.
jim g
Jul 22, 2011, 6:33:57 PM7/22/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
before...e.g.
http://tommatchakcycles.blogspot.com/search/label/forks
-Jim G
Esteban
Jul 22, 2011, 6:45:14 PM7/22/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
I don't think a Riv and/or any other bike are mutually exclusive.
I love my Protovelo because its a Riv through-and-through in frame
design and parts selection. Its a country bike in the best sense, and
my touring and commuting rig, too. It rides like a Cadillac - stable
and big. It begs me to enjoy the scenery. Grant designs incredibly
stable bicycles. And safe ones. Its worth noting that my Protovelo
is normal high-trail Riv design, but felt like it was on rails with
all the weight up front. Go figure.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25671211@N02/5960089616/in/photostream
I could ride the Protovelo on a randonee, and did. But I prefer my
Ebisu randonneuse, which is built specifically for speed over
distance. And why not a custom travel bike? Spread the love. Enjoy
the differences. Reading some of the discussions over at Rawland... I
wonder why you'd want one bike to be absolutely everything? Many
Rivendells end up doing that because they're designed so well and
doesn't pander to please everyone and their fetishes.
If you choose your custom builder carefully, it can be a great
experience. So is visiting Walnut Creek.
Esteban
in 75-degrees-and-breezy San Diego, Calif.
I love my Protovelo because its a Riv through-and-through in frame
design and parts selection. Its a country bike in the best sense, and
my touring and commuting rig, too. It rides like a Cadillac - stable
and big. It begs me to enjoy the scenery. Grant designs incredibly
stable bicycles. And safe ones. Its worth noting that my Protovelo
is normal high-trail Riv design, but felt like it was on rails with
all the weight up front. Go figure.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25671211@N02/5960089616/in/photostream
I could ride the Protovelo on a randonee, and did. But I prefer my
Ebisu randonneuse, which is built specifically for speed over
distance. And why not a custom travel bike? Spread the love. Enjoy
the differences. Reading some of the discussions over at Rawland... I
wonder why you'd want one bike to be absolutely everything? Many
Rivendells end up doing that because they're designed so well and
doesn't pander to please everyone and their fetishes.
If you choose your custom builder carefully, it can be a great
experience. So is visiting Walnut Creek.
Esteban
in 75-degrees-and-breezy San Diego, Calif.
EricP
Jul 22, 2011, 8:35:51 PM7/22/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
Totally jealous of that weather. Just about 90 with high humidity
today. A strenuous ride home.
Back to topic - did remember another non-Riv "instead of" that
happened. Last year ended up with a Salsa Fargo instead of a
Hunqapillar. Was not going to buy another bike after backing out on
the Rivendell, but this came along and, well . .. But that bike is
currently for sale. Not to fund a replacement bike. No, instead it's
a new "want" - the want to be free from serious hand pain. Something
that happens when I ride the Fargo long miles on gravel (or
singletrack). But that, as stated before, is a fault of the rider,
not the bike.
Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN
today. A strenuous ride home.
Back to topic - did remember another non-Riv "instead of" that
happened. Last year ended up with a Salsa Fargo instead of a
Hunqapillar. Was not going to buy another bike after backing out on
the Rivendell, but this came along and, well . .. But that bike is
currently for sale. Not to fund a replacement bike. No, instead it's
a new "want" - the want to be free from serious hand pain. Something
that happens when I ride the Fargo long miles on gravel (or
singletrack). But that, as stated before, is a fault of the rider,
not the bike.
Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN
On Jul 22, 5:45 pm, Esteban <proto...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't think a Riv and/or any other bike are mutually exclusive.
>
(big snip)
> I don't think a Riv and/or any other bike are mutually exclusive.
>
Steve Palincsar
Jul 22, 2011, 10:09:00 PM7/22/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
On Fri, 2011-07-22 at 17:35 -0700, EricP wrote:
> Totally jealous of that weather. Just about 90 with high humidity
> today. A strenuous ride home.
> Totally jealous of that weather. Just about 90 with high humidity
> today. A strenuous ride home.
Oh, if it were only 90. It was over 100 today, heat index around 110,
in metro DC.
chadk
Jul 22, 2011, 5:45:06 PM7/22/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
> <philip.william...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The last time I looked at the Boulder Bicycles website, they were
> > selling low trail forks for $300 or $350. I can't find them now; they
> > may be out, they may be in the online store, which is closed until
> > August 3, or it might be because the site is... retro.
>
> Hi Philip. I saw those, too, and couldn't find them again. I do seem
> to remember them being 1-1/8" threadless, though.
>
They have some 1" threadless in stock. Send Mike an email if you're
> > The last time I looked at the Boulder Bicycles website, they were
> > selling low trail forks for $300 or $350. I can't find them now; they
> > may be out, they may be in the online store, which is closed until
> > August 3, or it might be because the site is... retro.
>
> Hi Philip. I saw those, too, and couldn't find them again. I do seem
> to remember them being 1-1/8" threadless, though.
>
interested.
-Chad
Urbana, IL
Mike
Jul 23, 2011, 2:02:37 AM7/23/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
I started out with a Rambouillet, later got a Hilsen and then
purchased a used QB frame. I sold the Rambouillet and was gonna use
the money from that for a Hunqa or Hillborne. What I really wanted was
an Atlantis but then other expenses hit and I just got an LHT frame
which I'm very very happy with and built up with Riv/Nitto parts. Love
the bike. Of course right after I purchased the LHT a used Atlantis in
my size--64--came up for sale. Ironically it was from one of the guys
at the shop I purchased the LHT from. Go figure. So yeah, I wanted an
Atlantis but got a Surly LHT. It's a high class problem.
I should also add that a good friend of mine built me a dedicated
rando bike for a very good price. I'm very happy with that bike. I
imagine over the winter I'll dump more money into that--dyno hub and
maybe cassette wheelset and RH cranks. I have to admit that after 4yrs
of randonneuring it's nice to have a dedicated rando bike with
integrated rack, fenders and low trail geometry.
If I could only keep one bike in my stable it would be the AHH. Two
and it would be the AHH and the LHT, those are really all the bikes I
need.
If money wasn't an issue I'd totally order up a custom Rivendell but
that just isn't gonna happen...
--mike
purchased a used QB frame. I sold the Rambouillet and was gonna use
the money from that for a Hunqa or Hillborne. What I really wanted was
an Atlantis but then other expenses hit and I just got an LHT frame
which I'm very very happy with and built up with Riv/Nitto parts. Love
the bike. Of course right after I purchased the LHT a used Atlantis in
my size--64--came up for sale. Ironically it was from one of the guys
at the shop I purchased the LHT from. Go figure. So yeah, I wanted an
Atlantis but got a Surly LHT. It's a high class problem.
I should also add that a good friend of mine built me a dedicated
rando bike for a very good price. I'm very happy with that bike. I
imagine over the winter I'll dump more money into that--dyno hub and
maybe cassette wheelset and RH cranks. I have to admit that after 4yrs
of randonneuring it's nice to have a dedicated rando bike with
integrated rack, fenders and low trail geometry.
If I could only keep one bike in my stable it would be the AHH. Two
and it would be the AHH and the LHT, those are really all the bikes I
need.
If money wasn't an issue I'd totally order up a custom Rivendell but
that just isn't gonna happen...
--mike
Steve Palincsar
Jul 23, 2011, 5:52:28 AM7/23/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
They may be on vacation. The Herse/Boulder web site says closed for
vacation until Aug 3.
Ken Freeman
Jul 23, 2011, 9:24:29 AM7/23/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Seth, I'm going down that path exactly. I'm having a low-trail fork built for my 1984 Trek 610 to try it. With cheaper materials it's quoted around $200 painted, with rather stout Dediaccia blades and a crown that fits. We looked at the Heine-offerred blades, and with crown they cost nearly what my whole fork is quoted - not right for a geometry trial. Only problem is, the fork is taking as long to build (a local LBS owner has an on-again off-again frame shop) as my current fave custom builder has quoted me for a whole rando frame. It will maintain frame height, have 6.5 cm offset, and have fender/rack braze ons.
--
Ken Freeman
Ann Arbor, MI USA
But then I can rationally decide, Riv v. rando. I hoped to have the refitted Trek available this summer, but it's not working that way.
One thing to keep in mind: high-offset forks have long blades, and move the wheel considerably away from the original crown position. The brake reach requirement will be longer, and you'll probably need either cantis or long calipers. If you go canti or center-pull, you'll need to arrange for a cable hanger, which can affect what kind of bag attachment or decaleur you'd use. Simultaneously there is a stack height. There are a bunch of moving parts in this decision tree. Need to see if your designer/builder can manage this planning process, which would even become more complex for a full frame. So far I've found two (in a highly non-exhaustive search) who can.
As far as new rando-style frames, I'm also looking at Boxdog Pelican and Boulder, and hoping more information comes out regarding the under-development Rawland Nordavinden in both steel and Ti (so far Rawland have used Lynskey to build their Ti products). In customs I'm leaning toward either Alex Singer or Tom Matchak, but all of these are investments I won't make without knowing the concepts will work for me. I'm reacting to the fact that Grant, whose judgment I respect though I don't own a Riv, does not see the strength of the low-trail concept. Need to evaluate it for myself.
If I wanted a full tourer, Bruce Gordon is promising great service and price right now, but I want a rando not a tourer.
--
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Ken Freeman
Ann Arbor, MI USA
Mike
Jul 23, 2011, 9:37:25 AM7/23/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
"As far as new rando-style frames, I'm also looking at Boxdog Pelican
and
Boulder, and hoping more information comes out regarding the
under-development Rawland Nordavinden in both steel and Ti (so far
Rawland
have used Lynskey to build their Ti products). "
I get the impression that the Boulder Bicycle is a great bike--well
and
Boulder, and hoping more information comes out regarding the
under-development Rawland Nordavinden in both steel and Ti (so far
Rawland
have used Lynskey to build their Ti products). "
thought out, capable and "affordable".
--mike
Bill Pustow
Jul 23, 2011, 9:45:01 AM7/23/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com, RBW Owners Bunch
The Boulder bike got a great review in BQ.
Sent from my iPhone
Scotty
Jul 23, 2011, 9:47:30 AM7/23/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
To go along with your original post, I got a Surly Long Haul Trucker instead of a Rivendell Atlantis because at the time I simply could not afford an Atlantis. After quite a bit of research I found allot of people comparing the 2 bikes as of similar purpose and function. I was dreaming of an Atlantis but saw it as an impossible dream. I got the Trucker and I dont regret it. It is a fantastic bike but I cannot say how it compares to the Riv because I have never actually seen an Atlantis in person. I looked at it like admiring and wishing for a Bently but all I can have is a Chevy so I love my Chevy.
I can understand getting tired of waiting. I got my Homer 4 days ago after a very long wait. I too got tired of waiting so I stressed about it and I badgered the guys at Rivendell (sorry guys) and I considered if I made the right choice. Now that it is finally here I know with absolute certainty that I did make the right choice. The bike is absolutely perfect. I cant imagine anything that I would have considered as an alternative as even coming close. Some things are just worth the wait.
Brett Lindenbach
Jul 23, 2011, 10:59:07 AM7/23/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Grant, if you're reading this, why not consider bringing back the Blériot/Saluki? Maybe not the same exact framesets, but another 650b in a full spectrum of sizes, with a high quality/cost ratio (and forget about the alternate distribution channels on the B). A recurrent theme here is that these bikes are still highly sought after, and the Blériot is one of the few whose resale value has increased over the original price. At the moment there are no good Rivendell options for largish frames in this wheel size. I am a happy owner of a second-hand Blériot, and am always asked if I would be willing to sell it. I wish I could recommend a good option to these people, other than a custom.
-bdl
-bdl
pruckelshaus
Jul 23, 2011, 11:49:56 AM7/23/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I built my own because I loved the idea of my Rambouillet, but it didn't fit me all that well.
Steve Palincsar
Jul 23, 2011, 1:40:38 PM7/23/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
A friend of mine has one that he's going to ride in Paris Brest Paris
next month. He loves it.
Steve Palincsar
Jul 23, 2011, 2:13:15 PM7/23/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I'm glad I got to experiment with low trail by way of a Kogswell P/R. I
don't think I'd have the patience to wait as long as you're going to
have to wait for that experimental conversion fork. Which would have
been too bad, because low trail is, as they used to say long ago and far
away, the cat's pyjamas and I wouldn't have missed it for the world.
don't think I'd have the patience to wait as long as you're going to
have to wait for that experimental conversion fork. Which would have
been too bad, because low trail is, as they used to say long ago and far
away, the cat's pyjamas and I wouldn't have missed it for the world.
If you're looking for advice, I'll offer some: go for the whole
enchilada.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch
> +unsub...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Ken Freeman
> Ann Arbor, MI USA
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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Seth Vidal
Jul 23, 2011, 2:25:53 PM7/23/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 2:13 PM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:
> I'm glad I got to experiment with low trail by way of a Kogswell P/R. I
> don't think I'd have the patience to wait as long as you're going to
> have to wait for that experimental conversion fork. Which would have
> been too bad, because low trail is, as they used to say long ago and far
> away, the cat's pyjamas and I wouldn't have missed it for the world.
>
> If you're looking for advice, I'll offer some: go for the whole
> enchilada.
>
> I'm glad I got to experiment with low trail by way of a Kogswell P/R. I
> don't think I'd have the patience to wait as long as you're going to
> have to wait for that experimental conversion fork. Which would have
> been too bad, because low trail is, as they used to say long ago and far
> away, the cat's pyjamas and I wouldn't have missed it for the world.
>
> If you're looking for advice, I'll offer some: go for the whole
> enchilada.
>
This is one reason I've considered a whole bike w/ that in mind. Also
I like the idea of being able to compare 2 bikes side by side and
really FEEL a difference.
As for the boulder, the only turn off I have is the threadless stem -
though I will admit they seem to have gotten things right with how
they set their's up aesthetically.
-sv
Steve Palincsar
Jul 23, 2011, 2:35:11 PM7/23/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Well, Mitch Pryor will probably run another MAP Randonneur Project in
2012. That's extremely well thought out, low trail, standard diam
tubing w/quill stem. http://www.mapbicycles.com/news.html
Some of this year's Project bikes:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mapcycles/5916038371/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mapcycles/5916038299/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mapcycles/5905585828/in/photostream (mine)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mapcycles/5891947548/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mapcycles/5891377643/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mapcycles/5883044070/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mapcycles/5882478831/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mapcycles/5882476119/in/photostream/
Ken Freeman
Jul 23, 2011, 2:49:25 PM7/23/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I've been waiting about 6 months for the fork. Several extenuating circumstances: delayed design discussions, US shortage of acetylene, and several family health issues, but the intricacy of the design was certainly an issue.
I like little enchiladas.
On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 2:13 PM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:
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Steve Palincsar
Jul 23, 2011, 3:51:23 PM7/23/11
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On Sat, 2011-07-23 at 14:49 -0400, Ken Freeman wrote:
> I've been waiting about 6 months for the fork. Several extenuating
> circumstances: delayed design discussions, US shortage of acetylene,
> and several family health issues, but the intricacy of the design was
> certainly an issue.
>
>
> I like little enchiladas.
> I've been waiting about 6 months for the fork. Several extenuating
> circumstances: delayed design discussions, US shortage of acetylene,
> and several family health issues, but the intricacy of the design was
> certainly an issue.
>
>
> I like little enchiladas.
To each according to their taste. I hope when it comes it will be so
satisfying the wait will be immediately forgotten.
I wish this particular dish was easier to try.
LF
Jul 23, 2011, 4:56:19 PM7/23/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I have a Custom Rivendell Road and got a Panasonic at a yard sale (pics to follow) instead of another Rivendell because the 61cm pink Panasonic was extremely cheap, fit me, makes a good commuter bike, and I like to tinker." Of course, I'll "rivendellize" the Panasonic. If I were going to purchase a new bike, I'd probably buy a Rivendell, from Harris. I appreciate what I have learned from Rivendell, and like the folks there.
Best,
Best,
Larry
Geoff
Jul 23, 2011, 5:50:08 PM7/23/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Well said, Steve, and I couldn't agree more.
Like most here, I rode a bike when I was a kid and loved it. When I got to around high school age, I pretty much forgot about riding and was busy with too many other "important" things that high schoolers pursue. It wasn't until I was in my 40's, when my wife and I decided to take up bike riding as something that we could do and enjoy, together. I discovered with dismay that I couldn't ride a bike comfortably anymore. Sore back, shoulders, and neck, and numbing of the crotch, wrists, and hands...what the heck? Anyway, that started over a decade of spending ridiculous amounts of money in my search for a bike that I could ride without all of that discomfort. I bought and sold bikes made by Bianchi, Specialized, Trek, Ibis, and Calfee(yeah, carbon fiber)...varying degrees of better and worse, but still uncomfortable. I even ventured into recumbent bikes and trikes...great comfort, both, but not so great with handling(bikes) or climbing. The trikes, though, are great fun, and I still own and ride one by Catrike.
Anyway, my wife read about Rivendell Bike Works a few years ago. Weird, since I'd never heard of them, and yet I live only 30 miles from their HQ in Walnut Creek. My wife eventually got a Betty Foy mixte, and then a single speed Quickbeam. And, earlier this year, I test rode their Betty, Atlantis, and Hunqapillar...and got a Hunq. With Grant's philosophy and approach to making all of his bikes comfortable, useful, and bullet proof, I finally found a bike that I can ride with a much, much higher degree of comfort...and that rides, climbs, and handles wonderfully.
I have bought an amazing bike, but I have also become a member of Rivendell and their culture and bicycling philosophy. There isn't anything else out there quite like Rivendell or Grant Petersen. I'm glad to be a part of it, and they have in me a loyal customer and friend.
Mojo
Jul 23, 2011, 6:56:54 PM7/23/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
I bought a Grant-designed, Curt Goodrich-built, Joe Bell-painted
custom, road standard in 2001 and it remains just a fantastic road
bike. I am a normal enough body shape that I did not need a custom.
But what I got for the money and wait, ware dimensions and a tubing
set chosen for me and my riding style by Grant and built & painted by
excellent US craftsmen. The custom rides subtly, yet distinctly,
different and better than my 1996 AllRounder and Quickbeam. But my
Legolas rivals the custom in overall ride quality plus has extra
clearance for larger tires.
Like Scotty, I too chose an LHT instead of an Atlantis, as their
geometries were nearly identical. Both bikes are great work bikes, but
doggish, not-fun performance bikes (my opinion of course). From these
experiences I have concluded that production frames have to be built
with safe, heavier tubes that will not work well with everyone
especially lighter or less-strong riders.
From my experience, a Grant-designed custom is beyond a production
bike's performance and worth consideration if you want that extra
something that is hard to define but not difficult to experience.
Exceptions to this may be the Roadeo and Legolas if they fit you well.
custom, road standard in 2001 and it remains just a fantastic road
bike. I am a normal enough body shape that I did not need a custom.
But what I got for the money and wait, ware dimensions and a tubing
set chosen for me and my riding style by Grant and built & painted by
excellent US craftsmen. The custom rides subtly, yet distinctly,
different and better than my 1996 AllRounder and Quickbeam. But my
Legolas rivals the custom in overall ride quality plus has extra
clearance for larger tires.
Like Scotty, I too chose an LHT instead of an Atlantis, as their
geometries were nearly identical. Both bikes are great work bikes, but
doggish, not-fun performance bikes (my opinion of course). From these
experiences I have concluded that production frames have to be built
with safe, heavier tubes that will not work well with everyone
especially lighter or less-strong riders.
From my experience, a Grant-designed custom is beyond a production
bike's performance and worth consideration if you want that extra
something that is hard to define but not difficult to experience.
Exceptions to this may be the Roadeo and Legolas if they fit you well.
Ken Freeman
Jul 24, 2011, 11:10:53 AM7/24/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Don't know if I talked about it much here, but I do like to test new ideas in bikes before jumping in. I'm not generally conservative, but I am an engineer, and tend to approach complex concepts a piece at a time. Chunk it up, then solve the chunks. There are always several excellent examples of finished bikes at all ends of the spectrum. In trail it's (among others) Riv versus Boxdog or Boulder. Plus at the time, I was lusting for a Boxdog Pelican or Boulder, and just recently back into a job, working. The first gen Pelican had geometry nearly identical to my Trek 610 except for a little lower BB and the fork rake. Tube lengths and main angles were the same. Why not just make the change?
But part of the fallout due ot the delay is that I really enjoy riding my Mondonico, and think maybe instead I should spend $$ on a new go-fast, like a Mondonico EL-OS, or a Roadeo.
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Joe Bernard
Jul 24, 2011, 4:43:14 PM7/24/11
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I have a trike, too, a Greenspeed GT3. Every rider should try one.
Geoff
Jul 24, 2011, 5:08:12 PM7/24/11
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Hi Joe,
I had a GT3, too! A blue one. Then I sold it, and got an ICE S. Then sold that, and got a Catrike Road.
Notice the somewhat disturbing pattern? Buy-Sell, Buy-Sell, Buy-Sell. But, I have settled down, and have had my Catrike for the past 5 years. In retrospect, the GT3 was still the best trike, overall, of the three.
I agree- everyone should try one. They're a blast.
Joe Bernard
Jul 24, 2011, 6:08:50 PM7/24/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I sold my Romulus to convert to recumbents. Bought a couple of 2-wheelers, then a trike, sold the 2-wheel bents, now resupplying with a few Craigslist "upright" bikes, and thinking about getting a Hunqapillar or Sam. I'm keeping the trike!
Joe Bernard
Fairfield, CA.
Geoff
Jul 26, 2011, 12:35:29 AM7/26/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Joe, it sounds like you've gone through a recumbent/upright process not unlike mine. And it looks like we've ended up in about the same place. A trike and a Riv...not a bad way to go. lol
stevef
Jul 29, 2011, 8:00:01 PM7/29/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Bumping this thread to show my new custom Saluki replacement! Looking forward to picking it up, building it up, and rolling it around...B-)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/40738390@N08/5987496619/in/photostream
Color is based on the ginger paint on the first generation Salsa Cassaroll--hope it looks good with red Hetres!
Steve
http://www.flickr.com/photos/40738390@N08/5987496619/in/photostream
Color is based on the ginger paint on the first generation Salsa Cassaroll--hope it looks good with red Hetres!
Steve
Ken Freeman
Aug 1, 2011, 8:43:20 PM8/1/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
One of Tom's forks will be a thing of beauty and a fine ride. His design solution will keep the frame level if you want, and be designed with any features you like. One consequence is that the brake reach will increase, possibly past the point where a caliper can be used. This isn't Tom's fault, it's just the way frame geometry works. I'm going with a different maker, since I wanted faster and lower-priced results, a local guy (his blades will be really long, too). It will be lower price, but not faster. I expect to get the fork any day, but that's been the case since March or so. My fork will go on my 1984 Trek 610, which will be my low-trail testbed, before I spend more $$ for a low-trail frame. It might be really good, since the 65 mm fork will bring the geo of my Trek very close to that of a Boxdog Pelican .... Can't wait, really.
This is part of why I'm not considering a Riv at this moment. Now as a replacement go-fast, I think the Roadeo might be right up near the top.
On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 6:33 PM, jim g <yoj...@gmail.com> wrote:
Tom Matchak is your guy -- he's built low-trail forks for Rams
Seth Vidal wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 2:19 PM, cyclotourist <cyclot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Seth, you could get a custom fork made for a lot less to check out the low
> > trail thing.
> >
> > Could be a fun experiment!
> >
>
> From where? By Whom? I'm completely made of ears if someone has a suggestion.
>
before...e.g.
http://tommatchakcycles.blogspot.com/search/label/forks
-Jim G
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stevep33
Aug 3, 2011, 10:18:18 AM8/3/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
I sold my Rambouillet and AHH. I got a Boulder Brevet (700c) and
liked it so much that I just picked up a Boulder 650b frameset. The
main improvement, IMO, is the lighter tubing which makes for a
livelier ride and the low trail geometry. I am liking the plain-ness
of these TIG frames too. That said, the lugged (Waterford-built)
Boulder frame would be my first choice for another lugged frame, and
it's a nice Riv alternative for 2k.
Custom bikes are unnecessary for me. I have normal sizing, and there
are great off the shelf or semi-custom alternatives. Just not worth
the extra time and money. That said, if I did decide to go custom, a
Kirk fillet brazed frame or a Hampsten Strada Bianca would be at the
top of the list. From what I hear David Kirk and Steve Hampsten are
both good to work with, and they make great bikes.
On Jul 21, 10:42 pm, cm <chrispmur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I read/heard/ imagined recently that lots of people who buy Rivendells then
> go on to buy a custom/semi-custom bike from another company-- in most cases
> something that is comparable to an existing Rivendell model. For instance
> buying a Kirk instead of a Rodeo or Custom. I was curious if there is any
> truth to this, if anyone out there will admit to it, and what the reasons
> are. Something to the tune of "I got a ___________ instead of a Rivendell
> __________ because ___________".
>
> I got a Terraferma single speed instead of a Rivendell SimpleOne because I
> got tired of waiting.
>
> Cheers!
> cm
liked it so much that I just picked up a Boulder 650b frameset. The
main improvement, IMO, is the lighter tubing which makes for a
livelier ride and the low trail geometry. I am liking the plain-ness
of these TIG frames too. That said, the lugged (Waterford-built)
Boulder frame would be my first choice for another lugged frame, and
it's a nice Riv alternative for 2k.
Custom bikes are unnecessary for me. I have normal sizing, and there
are great off the shelf or semi-custom alternatives. Just not worth
the extra time and money. That said, if I did decide to go custom, a
Kirk fillet brazed frame or a Hampsten Strada Bianca would be at the
top of the list. From what I hear David Kirk and Steve Hampsten are
both good to work with, and they make great bikes.
On Jul 21, 10:42 pm, cm <chrispmur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I read/heard/ imagined recently that lots of people who buy Rivendells then
> go on to buy a custom/semi-custom bike from another company-- in most cases
> something that is comparable to an existing Rivendell model. For instance
> buying a Kirk instead of a Rodeo or Custom. I was curious if there is any
> truth to this, if anyone out there will admit to it, and what the reasons
> are. Something to the tune of "I got a ___________ instead of a Rivendell
> __________ because ___________".
>
> I got a Terraferma single speed instead of a Rivendell SimpleOne because I
> got tired of waiting.
>
> Cheers!
> cm
Steve Palincsar
Aug 3, 2011, 1:19:24 PM8/3/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
On Wed, 2011-08-03 at 07:18 -0700, stevep33 wrote:
> I sold my Rambouillet and AHH. I got a Boulder Brevet (700c) and
> liked it so much that I just picked up a Boulder 650b frameset. The
> main improvement, IMO, is the lighter tubing which makes for a
> livelier ride and the low trail geometry. I am liking the plain-ness
> of these TIG frames too. That said, the lugged (Waterford-built)
> Boulder frame would be my first choice for another lugged frame, and
> it's a nice Riv alternative for 2k.
>
> Custom bikes are unnecessary for me. I have normal sizing, and there
> are great off the shelf or semi-custom alternatives. Just not worth
> the extra time and money. That said, if I did decide to go custom, a
> Kirk fillet brazed frame or a Hampsten Strada Bianca would be at the
> top of the list. From what I hear David Kirk and Steve Hampsten are
> both good to work with, and they make great bikes.
> I sold my Rambouillet and AHH. I got a Boulder Brevet (700c) and
> liked it so much that I just picked up a Boulder 650b frameset. The
> main improvement, IMO, is the lighter tubing which makes for a
> livelier ride and the low trail geometry. I am liking the plain-ness
> of these TIG frames too. That said, the lugged (Waterford-built)
> Boulder frame would be my first choice for another lugged frame, and
> it's a nice Riv alternative for 2k.
>
> Custom bikes are unnecessary for me. I have normal sizing, and there
> are great off the shelf or semi-custom alternatives. Just not worth
> the extra time and money. That said, if I did decide to go custom, a
> Kirk fillet brazed frame or a Hampsten Strada Bianca would be at the
> top of the list. From what I hear David Kirk and Steve Hampsten are
> both good to work with, and they make great bikes.
And don't forget, custom geometry is an option on the Boulder frames.
stevep33
Aug 3, 2011, 3:03:01 PM8/3/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
It is, and it's a modest up-charge.
I shortened the top tube on my new 650b by a cm, but I think it was
actually unnecessary now that I have the bike. This just confirms
that I don't need custom sizing.
All this said, Riv sets the bar very high in terms of getting the
details right every time, and Riv paint is second to none in
appearance and durability. (Boulder paint is fine, nothing special).
I shortened the top tube on my new 650b by a cm, but I think it was
actually unnecessary now that I have the bike. This just confirms
that I don't need custom sizing.
All this said, Riv sets the bar very high in terms of getting the
details right every time, and Riv paint is second to none in
appearance and durability. (Boulder paint is fine, nothing special).
Dan Abelson
Aug 3, 2011, 11:15:36 PM8/3/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 9:18 AM, stevep33 <stev...@gmail.com> wrote:
I sold my Rambouillet and AHH. I got a Boulder Brevet (700c) and
liked it so much that I just picked up a Boulder 650b frameset.
You can count me as someone who has benefited from those who have chosen something other than a riv. I bought Steve's AHH and I am enjoying it immensely.
Dan Abelson
St. Paul, MN
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