Three Things

[LeahFoy]

This post is a collection of questions and thoughts. I'm trying to consolidate into just the one post, so sorry if it seems disjointed - I thought maybe one post would be preferable to three.

1. First question: Why does my 6 ft husband's 52 cm Clem seem too small and confined to me, who is 5'6"?

You may remember my zany husband who got a Clem around Christmastime. It was a memorable experience, let me tell you. He isn't Rivy at all, so this was quite the leap for him, and he settled on "matching" his bike to mine more than any other inspiration. We've been having a wonderful time with our bikes, not many lengthy rides, but rather, we do this great thing he calls "Our Evening Constitutional." Every night after dinner, we put on our matching Keens, our matching RayBans, and we take our Rivendell bikes and cruise around the neighborhood and through the park at our leisure. Our kids are big enough to stay home, and we feel like we are really getting away with something. We chat, we laugh, we congratulate ourselves on our fantastic bikes and reflect on 12 years of marriage. This is the kind of date I recommend.

But I digress.

One night we decided to switch bikes. I'd made some minor adjustments to his saddle and bars for him and wanted to test them. Secondly, I wanted to gaze upon my lovely Betty Foy while he rode it. (You never get to appreciate how great your own bike looks when you're on it!) I was really expecting his bike to be large and unwieldy but I was shocked to discover it felt cramped! I felt like the bars were squirrely, and that my butt should be way farther back. I wanted to be more stretched out. Now, I have albatross bars and he has whatever the Clems came with, but how can it make that much difference?

I told him I didn't like his "sit up and beg" positioning. He retorted, "It is not. It's the 'seated command' position." Then I rolled my eyes.

I tried grabbing his bars so I was more stretched out. No improvement. His sprung Brooks is pushed all the way back on its rails. Is this how the Clem is supposed to feel? Am I just too used to the Betty Foy? I really thought loooonnnnggg chainstays would make a huge difference, but there I was - cramped. I knew if I came to you, you all would tell me why.

I felt so disappointed because I was hoping his bike would be as good/even better than mine. The way I see it, my bike is perfect. I feel like the bike is part of ME. I get on it and there's nothing I could do to make it more comfortable. I don't even think about comfort. I fret a little about the dings in the paint and wish I had the Big Back Rack to match my Big Front Rack, and I wish that I had the gray medium Saddleback instead of the tan - all stupid cosmetic stuff. But I couldn't be happy on his bike, and that seems odd to me. Rivendells are comfortable and useful. It's their trademark; what am I missing? My husband is not a bike person, so he's just happy cruising around and looking alike. He thinks his bike feels fine, but he calls mine "more plush." He'll happily roll along in his "seated command" position regardless of what we say here, but I'm hoping you'll have some rationale.

2. It's his birthday next week. Do you remember his obsession with getting a bamboo crate for the front of his Clem? Well, he ordered one from the company Bamboobee on Amazon. They said it would be here anywhere in a 4 week timeframe. That timeframe came and went and after a lot of back-and-forth, I was just refunded my money. I want to get him a rack and different crate for his birthday. I have no idea what front rack the Clem takes. Who can say, and does anyone have one for sale on the list? He has the mousetrap rack on the back.

Also, does anyone have a recommendation for a crate? He loved that the Bamboobee looked modern and had a built in cup holder. He envisions himself riding his Clem with this contraption and a handlebar speaker on the beach. He lives in the desert.

3. His gears ghost shift. And there's lots of chatter in his gears. Is it possible the REI mechanic didn't install the gearing correctly? Do they need adjustment after a while?

Lastly, I've included a couple photos. Thanks so much for reading and lending me your expertise.
Grateful!
Leah

https://flic.kr/p/GVbyb9
https://flic.kr/p/DNo3w6

[Steve Palincsar]

What shifters do you have?

[Leah Peterson]

Those oddball thumbies the Clem came with stock.

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[cyclotourist]

1) His seat height looks really low compared to your set up. Maybe
just the perspective of the pic.

2) Got nothing.

3) New cables will stretch out to their permanent length after some
use. Both brake and derailer cables should be adjusted after some use.
For the rear derailer, try screwing the adjuster out (counter
clockwise) a couple clicks and see if that dials it in. Plan B is to
take it back to the shop and have them do that (they should have told
you to come back for an adjust when they put it together).

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Cheers,
David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/05/2016 05:25 PM, Leah Peterson wrote:
> Those oddball thumbies the Clem came with stock.
>
>> On Jun 5, 2016, at 2:24 PM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:
>>
>> What shifters do you have?
>>
>> On 06/05/2016 05:20 PM, LeahFoy wrote:
>>> 3. His gears ghost shift. And there's lots of chatter in his gears. Is it possible the REI mechanic didn't install the gearing correctly? Do they need adjustment after a while?
>>

And so non-indexed, and presumably we can rule out user-related issues.

Do they both have the same number of sprockets? Have there been any
special mods to your setup that might make shifting better? (The trick
of swapping upper and lower pulleys comes to mind as one possibility.)
Have you ruled out slippage of his Silvers caused by assembly issues
regarding the washers? If you swap wheels with him (assuming you can -
I don't know if both models take the same wheel size) does the ghost
shifting follow the wheel to the other bike?

Regarding adjustment: the usual "cable stretch / housing bedding" issues
shouldn't matter here, as it would appear that both bikes are using
friction shifting, in which case the only possible stretch issue would
be not quite enough tension to fully center the shift on the largest
sprocket (or, if you've got arsey-versey derailleurs, I guess it would
be onto the smallest sprocket).

[Leah Peterson]

Steve, whoah. Here’s what Leah knows how to do: Use Allen key to adjust Brooks. Use different Allen key to adjust handlebars. Use air compressor to fill bike tires. Squirt T9 (or whatever it’s called) to lube chain. Ha!!!

[Jeremy Tavan]

Re: (1) - The Evening Constitutional is a fantastic idea and one that I'm going to steal/adopt as soon as we can leave our son in the house alone. As far as comfort is concerned, I wouldn't sweat it - he's the one who has to be comfortable on his bike. If I had to venture a guess I'd point at the handlebars, but it really doesn't seem like a big deal.

Re: (2) - My wife's Clementine has a box from http://www.gothamcargo.com/ on it. It mounted easily, and it has a lot of color and character, but I'm not very impressed with the quality of construction. Operationally fine so far, but I just keep waiting for it to break. Maybe it won't, and it just feels light because it's light. But if I were doing it today and didn't care about shiny colors, I'd probably shop for a vintage soda bottle crate on Ebay. They're inexpensive, very sturdy, and have loads of character. Shellac it, mount it on a porteur type rack, and collect admiring glances.

Re: (3) - I am not a fan of the Riv stock Clem/Clementine build. At all. Bought my wife a beautiful Clementine and we have since replaced perhaps half of the total parts because of issues with cockpit (lack of) comfort and ghost shifting. The stock bars were not angle-adjustable and were too wide for her shoulders, and the stock shifters, cassette, and chain did not play nicely together even after adjusting and re-adjusting shift cable tension. We've replaced the chain and cassette and shifters with Shimano parts (lowest-price 11-32 cassette and chain, 8-speed Ultegra shifters in VO thumb adapters), and it's working a lot better now. 

Cheers, and happy riding on your nearly-matching bikes! 

/Jeremy

[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/05/2016 05:42 PM, Leah Peterson wrote:
> Steve, whoah. Here’s what Leah knows how to do: Use Allen key to adjust Brooks. Use different Allen key to adjust handlebars. Use air compressor to fill bike tires. Squirt T9 (or whatever it’s called) to lube chain. Ha!!!

And obviously you know how to friction shift. Which raises the
question, does he? I presumed your comment about shifting on his bike
meant you tried it and it misbehaved for you. If instead it meant you
could hear ghost shifting when he was doing it, it could just be user
error on his part.

[ian m]

1. When you are so used to an comfortable with the feel of your bike, anyone else's feels off. If you rode his for a week, making minor adjustments to the fit, there's no doubt you would find the perfect set up.
Also, those Bosco bars push you REALLY far back. I didn't like the feel of them when I test rode a Clem and I'm happy I went with the bullmoose bars.

2. The Clem would be happy with the Nitto Mark's rack, or any of the bigger ones.

3. I am of the firm opinion that the combination of those Sunrace shifters and the Altus derailer are a problem. I used the same shifters with an old Shimano XTR derailer and had perfect crisp shifts for a year. Once that derailer wore out I went with the Altus on Riv's recommendation and have had nothing but problems. I would suggest upgrading the derailer to something like the Deore or XT derailer Riv offers.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/05/2016 06:23 PM, ian m wrote:
> 1. When you are so used to an comfortable with the feel of your bike,
> anyone else's feels off. If you rode his for a week, making minor
> adjustments to the fit, there's no doubt you would find the perfect
> set up.
> Also, those Bosco bars push you REALLY far back. I didn't like the
> feel of them when I test rode a Clem and I'm happy I went with the
> bullmoose bars.
>
> 2. The Clem would be happy with the Nitto Mark's rack, or any of the
> bigger ones.
>
> 3. I am of the firm opinion that the combination of those Sunrace
> shifters and the Altus derailer are a problem. I used the same
> shifters with an old Shimano XTR derailer and had perfect crisp shifts
> for a year. Once that derailer wore out I went with the Altus on Riv's
> recommendation and have had nothing but problems. I would suggest
> upgrading the derailer to something like the Deore or XT derailer Riv
> offers.

What could the issue be with the Altus derailleur?

[ian m]

I don't know that it's an issue with the derailer per se, just that in my experience the interaction between the Sunrace shifters and the Altus seems to be problematic. Both on my Clem (not the stock complete) and my partner's All City (though she has the indexed 8 speed Sunrace rear shifter rather than the Riv offered model). After many many adjustments they never play well together

[Deacon Patrick]

1 and 2: blank stare. I got nuttin.

3. In addition to what others have suggested looking into (and I second the question of does he know how to shift friction gears? Simple test: does it ghost shift when you ride it? If not, teach him how to shift), there is a twist tensioner for most thumb levers on the lever itself, usually with a flip out "handle." If this comes loose (and it can with time) it can ghost shift.

If that fails, I had great luck curing my ghost shifting by reversing the pulleys on my derailure. The theory being that the top pulley has unnecessary play for friction shifting (but that indexed shifting requires to be "reliable") The bottom pully does not have this play, so reversing them cures the ghost shifting. 

With abandon,

Patrick

[dougP]

Leah:

First of all, thanks for the photos.  They look great & I can see you two cruising the neighborhood. 

1.  With the bars being different, each bike will feel unique.  You're used to yours so naturally any other bike will feel strange.  As to "what's different", it would take some time with a tape measure to develop an answer.  As long as each of is comfortable on your own bike, life is good.

Side note on his "command performance" position.  I recently had someone liken their upright, swept bar position as "master of my realm." 

2.  That's a shame about the box.  It seemed a really cool idea when you first brought it up.  As to envisioning riding at the beach, hey, beach has sand; desert has sand.  A loop of breaking waves on his music player & all is well.  Hope someone here has a rack'n'crate combo they can recommend. 

3.  Others have good suggestions.  Check it all out.  If REI put it together, I'd have them give it a once over.  Some REI stores are better than others when it comes to bikes though. 

Keep us posted on future developments.  In any case, it sounds like you both are having a lot of fun with the bikes.

dougP

On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 2:20:18 PM UTC-7, LeahFoy wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

Leah, I started with the Boscos on my 45 CLEM (I'm an inch taller than you) and they reached WAY too far back for me. If the virtual toptube on your bikes is similar and you're good with Albas, your husband's cockpit is going to feel like someone strapped you into a Miata with the seat all the way forward. I'd wager you'd be fine on that frame with your bars.

[Patrick Moore]

Then I rolled my eyes.

"Behind every great man is a woman rolling her eyes."

[Mark in Beacon]

My thought, based on the info provided and the photos, is that the 52cm is probably borderline for your husband. Which means, as set up, paradoxically, it could feel cramped to you because his handlebars are jacked to the max, which means they come back toward the saddle that much more, which they do more than just about any other bars anyway because they are Boscos.

I found I had to lower my Boscos (I have a stock 52cm Clementine, I am 5'10" and shrinking). I also believe that the super upright position these bars encourage, even after lowering, tends to bring you toward the front of the saddle. With the lower rise and more forward bend, making the Albas, relatively speaking, more "aggressive", as the top half of your body leans forward, the rear tends to slide back. Without that ever so slightly more forward lean, your butt does not slide back when riding the Bosco position. These are kind of micro things, but coming from one to the other can be very noticeable. In any case, I gave myself one hundred days to grow accustomed to the Boscos before making any decision.

One hundred days being the amount of time my old tai chi teacher said it took to develop a habit--at least a good habit. I have more to say about it, but to summarize, I am glad I gave it time, as I really like these bars, particularly for the state of mind they help foster while riding.  However, I still occasionally experience that feeling you had, of being too far forward,  of wanting to be further back on the saddle. Which, as you say is weird on a Riv with a relaxed seat tube (I don't think chainstay length comes into play with this sensation) and as I said above I think comes about mostly because the zero lean position keeps your butt from sliding back. This may be why those Dutch city bikes have 69 degree seat tubes. My current saddle is a Brooks Flyer (B17 with springs). I just ordered a VO fat saddle with springs (Model 8?) so that I can get a bit more rail, and a bit more width to see if that alleviates the sensation.

Sadly, perhaps, I did not have the same patience when it came to the stock shifters. I tried everything I know to get those things to work properly, but they ghost shifted with regularity (a problem I documented in another thread here on RBW.) I have been using various shifting systems for almost 50 years and never had a problem like this. I know there are others with a similar experience, and I suspect it is that a certain percentage of these things have some kind of defect. I swapped them out for a big honking set of Suntour stem shifters  I had in the parts bin. Despite the fact that the Bullmoose design blocks out half the movement, they still shift across all except the lowest gear, which I don't really need. I bought a second pair on eBay that install in a way that does not conflict with the BB bars, but they are not as big and Clemy, and the bike mechanic in me is constantly battling inertia, so the big honkers are still on there.

In terms of racks, I like the Surly six-pack, but it might be overkill for you. It also takes a bit of bending to get it right.

Unlike some others, and despite my lack of success with the stock shifters, I generally like the "factory" build just fine. I think the Bullmoose Boscos were conceived as almost a constructeur feature, a part that, for me, is integral to the bike (particularly the Clementine). I fully understand this does not mean that the bike won't work in other configurations, or that others might prefer those configurations. I even leave open the possibility that some day I might change the bars.

Anyway, my suggestion is switch bikes for 100 days.

[LeahFoy]

The comment about the Miata home. That's EXACTLY how it felt to me on his bike.

I took his bike for a short ride and it was shifting fine for me. I *think* he knows how to friction shift, but I'm going to test him by having him do it on my bike - I know my bike works, so if he messes that up his problems are clearly manufactured - by him! On previous rides, I heard his Clem pop into other gears when he rode it uphill, and sometimes the gears would chatter and I'd tell him to nudge it a bit but it would remain noisy until he chose a whole different gear.

Would have liked to have run my experiment tonight, but I got home late (hanging out with teenagers at youth group) and my dog - a bonafide walk junkie - was jonesing for a walk. No bike ride.

Your comments are all so extremely interesting. I am going to investigate your points when I take the bike in to have a front rack affixed.

Patrick Moore - I laughed out loud. Yes, eye rolling happens here, and always in hilarity. This man of mine, I tell you what!

[Joe Bernard]

Ah, the ghost shifting isn't happening when you ride it. Yes, I think it's an issue with hubby not being experienced with friction shifting. This probably isn't helped by those weird friction-with-clicks shifters Riv specs on the CLEM completes..I would think it's confusing to friction-shift a lever that thinks it's indexed.

Btw, I love your Betty. That blue with red lug cutouts is one of the prettiest paint jobs River has ever done.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/06/2016 01:05 AM, LeahFoy wrote:
> The comment about the Miata home. That's EXACTLY how it felt to me on his bike.
>
> I took his bike for a short ride and it was shifting fine for me. I *think* he knows how to friction shift, but I'm going to test him by having him do it on my bike - I know my bike works, so if he messes that up his problems are clearly manufactured - by him! On previous rides, I heard his Clem pop into other gears when he rode it uphill, and sometimes the gears would chatter and I'd tell him to nudge it a bit but it would remain noisy until he chose a whole different gear.

If it doesn't do it when you shift the bike and it does do it when he
shifts the bike it's a compelling argument for lack of user skill on his
part. If it's foolproof operation you want for him, put the proper
indexed shifters on the bike and be done with it.

[Garth]

As to number one, the spec seat tube angle on the Clem is 71.5 and the Betty Foy 72. To confirm this you can set each bike against a wall next to each other in parallel as best you can and they Clem seat tube should look just a little more relaxed.  This at least confirms the actuality of the specification. 

The head tube angle on the Betty is 70 and the Clem 71 so this too should be visible.

Seat posts are different. The Betty has a Nitto of some sort ?  The Clem has a generic. The setback on them is likely different in some way but you should be able tell if they are "very" different by eye.  Any glaring difference ?

You mentioned the sprung Brooks for the Clem, you Betty has what, a B17?   Do they use the same rails and offer the same adjustments fore/aft ?

Cranks a same length ?
Pedals similar thickness ?

The seat fore/aft in relation to the BB is most important as this is really the foundation of bike control and feel.  You should be able to take your hands off the bars and be able to pedal it with feeling like you are falling forward. 

Once you get the saddle in a similar position as the Betty you have a base from which to compare reaches.  Measure the distance for the tip of the Betty saddle to the middle hand position of your Alba bars.  Now measure the Clem the same way. Any difference ? 

Measure the middle saddle to floor on each bike.  Now measure middle grip to floor on each.  What are the differences if any in the differentials ?

I am not familiar with the Clem bar but am with Albas. It appears the Clem bars go back at least a couple of cm's compared to the Alba ?


That's all I have for now !
Cheers

[Philip Kim]

Leah these were Rivendell's "friction" shifters for the Clem and Appaloosa, made by Sunrace. They are essentially index parts modded for friction shifting. They click, but technically can be friction shift. However, the slight index can make it hard to get into the right gear, and can create a type of ghost shifting. I test rode an Appaloosa and hated these shifters. I would just get him Ultegra bar ends for better shifting.

[Michael Hechmer]

Leah, it sounds like you guys are ready for a tandem.  The only significant difference I can see in his set up is the higher bars.  As you raise the stem the angle of the head tube pushes  the handle bars back toward the seat.  The other possibility is your body proportions.  Again, can't tell from the photo, but just because he has longer legs, doesn't mean he has a loner torso or a more forward comfort position..

I'm putting together a Chevy-ut for my daughter and even though it is one size smaller than Riv's suggestion there is virtually no seat post showing and a good fit to the drop bars.

Enjoy the ride.

Michael

On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 5:20:18 PM UTC-4, LeahFoy wrote:

[Leah Peterson]

Mark - I love the Surly racks you mentioned! I don’t at all think the 8 pack rack is overkill - I actually prefer the 24 pack rack! I’m in the process of finding out whether it’s for sale yet or not. I’ll call a dealer this morning. 

To those of you who explained about having the bars high - I’m going to lower them and ride his bike today. I’m very curious to see if that really makes a difference. Seems to good and simple to be true. And indeed he might notice and insist I put them back. He does love The Seated Command Position.

I’ll report back about his friction shifting abilities on the Betty Foy, but you’ll have to wait until evening for THAT, because that’s when we have The Evening Constitutional. 

Michael - the tandem. I read this and then walked up to my husband, who was minding his own business getting ready for work, and said “HubbahHubbah.” His eyes lit up so I’ll take it he knows I mean we should plunk down big $ on a tandem. Ask for forgiveness instead of permission???

[Mark in Beacon]

I second the notion of a HubbahHubbah tandem for you guys.

I got my 8 pack from Modernbike.com, as the shops that stock decent racks are few and far between in these parts. I've had no problems with them, and they offer free shipping. Unfortunately, they are currently out of stock on both the 8 and 24, in both silver and black. Might take a little hunting to find one.

[dougP]

"...then walked up to my husband, who was minding his own business getting ready for work, and said “HubbahHubbah.” His eyes lit up so I’ll take it he knows I mean we should plunk down big $ on a tandem. Ask for forgiveness instead of permission???"

Oh, you wicked woman!  Taking bets now on who's captain & who's stoker. 

dougP

[Steve Palincsar]

You know, more folks probably know the term in a very different context than a tandem



and he may just have thought he was being propositioned...

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[Leah Peterson]

Hilarious! Yes, he read something else totally in "HubbahHubbah!" Cheap and tacky come on lines are still come on lines in his book!

Can a person be in The Seated Command position in the back? I call the captain's seat!

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 6, 2016, at 12:42 PM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:

You know, more folks probably know the term in a very different context than a tandem

<img_0322.jpg>

[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/06/2016 04:12 PM, Leah Peterson wrote:

Hilarious! Yes, he read something else totally in "HubbahHubbah!" Cheap and tacky come on lines are still come on lines in his book!

Can a person be in The Seated Command position in the back? I call the captain's seat!

Another name for the stoker is "Rear Admiral."

[Lynne Fitz]

The stoker is always right.