Rene Herse Triple
John Rinker
Steve Palincsar
My JP Weigle has a Herse triple. 10 speeds: SRAM PG1070 12-32 cassette, 24/34/36 crankset, bar end shifters and a Deore XT rear derailleur.
Initially it was built with a Campagnolo double front derailleur
that only reluctantly and unreliably shifted to the inner ring,
which was then replaced with a Tiagra double.
That was OK, and then after a thousand miles (to establish a
baseline for comparison purposes) I took part in an experiment for
BQ, replacing the outer 46T ring with a ramped and pinned 11 spd
46T outer ring.
I didn't have high expectations of the ramped and pinned ring.
I've ridden tens of thousands of miles on Shimano XTR M900 triples
with ramped and pinned SG and SGX rings, and although they shift
just fine, I found no magic in the ramps and pins, and the Herse
triple shifted better than all the XTR M900s.
Also, I started out prejudiced against 11 speed: a bad Spinal Tap
joke, 1 more useless speed provided at the cost of hundred dollar
chains and a three hundred dollar chain tool.
On the other hand, this was Jan Heine's idea and he's been right so often in the past flying in the face of conventional wisdom that anything he suggests automatically gets the benefit of my doubt -- even an 11-speed ramped and pinned chain ring.
No idea what they did, but once the shop replaced the outer ring the Tiagra double no longer would shift to the inner ring at all. I tried adjusting the yaw and then it would shift briskly to the inner ring but no longer was reliable on the two outermost rings: sometimes it would spontaneously shift from the 46T outer to the 34 inner, and every single rear shift required trimming to avoid rubbing.
They tried various adjustments and cage bending tricks for an
hour while I watched, all to no avail. Whatever happened when
they replaced the outer ring certainly screwed up that Tiagra
double.
They replaced it with a Tiagra FD4603F triple. This
derailleur appears to be made for compact-sized chain rings. The
specification sheet says it's for a front chain ring difference of
20 teeth or less and a minimum difference of 11T between the
middle and outer chain rings - a perfect match for my setup. And
what a difference it made!
Shifting was now perfect to all chain rings, and better than
anything I have ever experienced before in 48 years of using
triples. Astounding. Amazing. Incredible.
Basically, friction shifting in front has in my experience always
been some kind of variation on "The Old Bump and Grind." The
original Herse 46 and 34 shift was very nice -- indeed, I was very
doubtful the ramped and pinned 46T ring would make any difference,
since with the original outer ring shifting was as good as, if not
even better than all the ramped and pinned rings I've used in the
past -- but the ramped and pinned 46T ring changed things very
much for the better.
Instead of hearing the chain grinding across a few teeth to make
the shift -- which was as good as I'd ever experienced of a front
shift -- now I heard a SNAP and the chain instantly jumped between
the two outer rings. Upshifts from the 34 to the 46 and
downshifts from the 46 to the 34 had taken on the character of an
indexed rear shift: no bumping and grinding, just an instant
change. Astounding: four stars weren't enough to describe it.
And once the FD4603F triple front derailleur was installed,
shifts to the inner ring became quick and without any hesitation,
with ample space between the front derailleur cage plates so that
8 of the 10 rear sprockets can be accommodated without needing to
trim the front.
Anybody here have experience with Rene Herse triple cranks paired with a triple front derailleur?
It is recommended that one use a 'double' front derailleur with a Rene Herse triple crankset as 'Triple front derailleurs have stepped cages that work only with specific chainring combinations.' As I will be running a 48-36-24, this seems close enough to a standard 46-36-24 MTB setup that a triple would work.
-- Steve Palincsar Alexandria, Virginia USA
John Rinker
Steve Palincsar
Thank you Steve. First, that's a beautiful bicycle. Wow! Lemme know when you're ready to trade it in ;).
Thanks. Not a chance.
I appreciate you sharing your experience, and I'm sure it will help me move forward. Right now I'm running 9-speeds with a Deore rear derailleur and an older XT front triple. I may just try it out with this and keep your suggestion of the Tiagra triple for future reference. I'm assuming the Rene Herse chainrings are not ramped and pinned.
The standard Herse chain rings that come with a triple are not
ramped and pinned. This was an experiment Jan initiated, to see
if an 11-speed ramped and pinned 46, meant to be used with a
paired 30T inner ring on an 11-speed double, would make a
difference. My conclusion: it definitely was better. The ramps
and pins were doing exactly what they're supposed to do, and the
difference was simply startling.
I freely admit, I do not understand the arcane math behind designing matched pairs of chain rings. Jan wrote about it on his blog https://www.renehersecycles.com/48-33-rings-for-rene-herse-cranks/ when they introduced the 48/33 11 speed rings. I didn't understand it then, and I don't understand it now.
What I do know, though, is that this 46T ramped and pinned ring for 11 works perfectly mated to an unramped, unpinned 34T 10-and-below middle ring. It's obvious the pins are doing their lifting job, and it's obvious the ramps are allowing instant downshifts.
If you want to try one of those Tiagra FD4603F triples you should
probably try to find one now. I do not believe they are current
production anymore. My LBS happened to have one on the shelf, and
it's a Holy Moly Hail Mary that it worked. But then, my chain
ring combination is squarely in the range this front derailleur
was designed for.
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Jack K
- SRAM PC-1110 cheapie chains for $14/each: https://www.jensonusa.com/SRAM-PC-1110-Powerlock-11SP-Chain
- Shimano SLX/105 HG-601 mid-quality chains for $19.99/each: https://www.jensonusa.com/Shimano-CN-HG601-11-Speed-Chain
- Shimano XT/Ultegra HG-701 better-quality chains $26.99/each: https://www.jensonusa.com/Shimano-XtUltegra-CH-HG701-11SP-Chain
- Shimano XTR/Dura-Ace HG-901 ultimate-quality chains $34.99/each: https://www.jensonusa.com/Shimano-XtrDura-Ace-CH-HG901-11SP-Chain
- Cheapier portable 11spd chain tool $4.90/each: https://www.jensonusa.com/Foundation-325P2-Bike-Chain-Breaker-Tool
- Park CT-5 portable chain tool compatible with 5-12 spd chains $16.95/each: https://www.jensonusa.com/Park-Tool-CT-5-Compact-Chain-Tool
- Park CT-3.3 shop style chain tool compatible with 5-12 spd chains $36.95/each: https://www.jensonusa.com/Park-Tool-CT-33-5-12-Speed-Chain-Tool
Steve Palincsar
It may be humorous exaggeration now, but when 11 first was
introduced, indeed the only choices were hundred dollar chains and
a special three hundred dollar Campagnolo chain tool (it was
Campagnolo or nothing). And as the saying goes, you only get one
chance to make a first impression.
Brewster Fong
Jeremy Till
John Rinker
Steve Palincsar
As I may have indicated in this discussion, I used the Herse triple with non-ramped and pinned rings for 1,000 miles before the experiment. Shifting was fine. Better than I'd ever experienced with any Shimano ramped and pinned rings. Good enough I really did not believe any meaningful improvement was possible.
And then I tried the Herse ramped and pinned
ring, and I was simply astonished.
John Rinker
Steve Palincsar
On 1/24/20 7:27 AM, John Rinker wrote:
> Thanks Steve. I'm not seeing the ramped/pinned ring on the Rene Herse
> website.
https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop/components/cranks/rene-herse-outer-chainring/
The 11 speed rings are ramped and pinned.
> Also, are your index or friction shifting? Would it matter?
indexed.