Hillibikers - do you stand and pedal?

[Mackenzy Albright]

I've recently been riding my more traditional geometry fixed gear quite a bit for "urban commuting". Out of necessity I've been standing and "mashing" more on inclines. I recall most of my "traditional diamond frame bikes" I would stand and pedal a fair amount. 

Every time I switch back to my Clementine with Boscos I find standing pedaling to be quite un-natural feeling with my hands more or less by my thighs. It works for a short burst to speed up my cadence but doesn't seem like an option for sustainable climbing. 

It's got me thinking with the laid back seat tubes, swept back bars, what is peoples instinctive climbing methods on "hillibikes" (not traditional geo rivs)

Seated spinning? Or have you found a method of standing and pedaling that works well. 

[Tom Palmer]

I have a 60cm Platypus that I am at the very bottom of PBH recommendation. It is a long bike. I am using VO Granola bars flipped and not as high as most that I see on the list. I still use a pretty long stem and stand to climb often. I taped the front part of the bars for even farther forward grip. If the bars were higher and closer, I would not feel comfortable standing either. I never made Boscos work for me, but never tried on something as long as the Platypus. 

Any pictures of your bike to share? 
Tom Palmer

Twin Lake, MI

[Garth]

Since you already know that the Bosco doesn't work for you with your Clementine, why haven't you changed the bars and stem to allow for more effective reach and use of the steering aixs? I wouldn't touch a Bosco with a ten foot pole either for the very reason you stated. I bought a Tosco and simply in my hands my only  thought was "what the heck was I thinking ?" The only swept back bar I can take is a 56cm steel Albatross and that's with a 130mm stem on frames that have longer than average top tubes and frame reach. I ride them stretched out and even or just above the saddle.  To me an "upright posture" for bike riding is very unnatural. Don't let a builder/seller's idea-l bar prevent you from finding your won. They're not you. There's endless bar shapes so you're bound to find the right combo for you.

[Hoch in ut]

My main mountain bike is a singlespeed so I know what you mean by standing and mashing. For bikes with swept back bars, it just doesn’t work for me to do that. 

When I had the Clem on steep dirt roads, I sit and spin. 

First reason, as you stated, bars are too close to your legs. It feels very awkward. 

Second, with such long wheelbase, and more importantly, gigantic chainstays, it actually helps to sit and keep the weight back to give that rear wheel some traction. Especially when it gets loose and rocky. Just gear down and the thing tractors up some steep climbs. It doesn’t feel natural as a single speeder but you get used to it. 

If you must stand, I put my hands closer to the front of the bars.  There not really a great way to grip it, but it’s better than hands by your thighs. 

[Kim Hetzel]

MacKenzy,

Since, I have owned my Clem "L" bike with Bosco bars from last September, I primarily remain seated and spin. My pace of riding is mostly slow and easy going. I do not feel the need to stand up in the pedals, except only to get temporary relief from sitting in the saddle too long for a short while. Upon doing this, I find my hand position changes onto the upper bend of the handlebars from my grips. 

Kim Hetzel

Yelm, WA.

[Joe Bernard]

Hmm, I guess I could grab the low flats up front on the Bosco for standing, I hadn't thought of that. It would be similar to a flatbar mountain bike. I'll try it! 

On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 5:21:00 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:

That's pretty aggressive Garth, I don't think Mackenzy signed up for being confronted. 

To answer the question the thread is about: I use Boscos on my custom and sit bolt upright and love it. I don't stand, I spin, cuz that's my jam.

Joe Bernard 

[Mackenzy Albright]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts so far everyone! 

Tom - Here is a pic of my setup. Im trying not to fiddle with the build too much at this point. 

Garth - I actually really like this bike and find it extremely comfortable, just a different style of riding. I tend to sit and climb on most of my bikes I've owned. I was just curious because the arrangement is considerably different than a traditional geometry bike and riding style. 

Kim - I find it similar. Especially fast descending feels great standing. Eventually I sit back down and spin away. haha 

I do find Loscos a bit more ergonomic for an aggressive forward position with a lesser bend and have considered trying a swap - but the bar end shifter always makes me put it off. 

[Luke Hendrickson]

Much of what’s been said is why I run the Nitto Bullmoose bars on my Atlantis. It feels swept back enough and I can still get a more ‘aggressive’ riding position should I wish to do so. 

[DavidP]

I'm in the same boat as Tom - sized up on a  60cm Platy. Mine has a 120mm stem and 650mm Toscos and I love the huge fore-aft position range they give me (from 75-45 degrees back angle, or even lower depending on how much I bend my arms). I can stand and pedal holding the bars back at the grips or further up at the "ramps" and find myself doing both. I will grip the flats of the Tosco when I want to be less upright on the open road but prefer a wider grip for standing climbing.

My Platypus looks pretty long but that may just be the proportions of the fit:


-Dave

[DamonLee]

Hi David, what stem are your rocking there? Is it a quill stem or an adapter + stem combo? Any photos would be great - your platy looks so at home in the woods there!

[Tom Palmer]

Just from the eye test, I would say it is just a high close bar thing. Because my Platypus is so big for me, I can get the high enough, but still away from my torso and legs while standing. It is still a little more difficult than my single speed mountain bike, but I need to stand with it and the bike is set up for it and standing climbing is as comfortable as sitting and cruising.

Tom

On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 9:06:57 PM UTC-4 Mackenzy Albright wrote:

[Richard Rose]

I suspect that stem length is a key component here. My Clem has a 135 stem, my Gus a 100. Both have Bosco’s & the Gus is longer so reach is virtually the same on both. Standing climbing is very natural on both. The bar tips on my bikes I suspect are farther away than others? When making a sharp turn they barely brush my knees.

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 15, 2023, at 7:13 PM, Mackenzy Albright <mackenzy...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've recently been riding my more traditional geometry fixed gear quite a bit for "urban commuting". Out of necessity I've been standing and "mashing" more on inclines. I recall most of my "traditional diamond frame bikes" I would stand and pedal a fair amount. 

Every time I switch back to my Clementine with Boscos I find standing pedaling to be quite un-natural feeling with my hands more or less by my thighs. It works for a short burst to speed up my cadence but doesn't seem like an option for sustainable climbing. 

It's got me thinking with the laid back seat tubes, swept back bars, what is peoples instinctive climbing methods on "hillibikes" (not traditional geo rivs)

Seated spinning? Or have you found a method of standing and pedaling that works well. 

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[Garth]

I understand that the position is comfortable for most riding Mackenzie. Short of changing the bars and stem to place your hands at and forward of the steering axis, you'll experience what you do. There isn't a better way to push a wheelbarrow uphill, you know ? It's design thing, I get that, so to each their own. 

Looking at Toms bike, you see where his hands and thus body weight are in relation to the steering axis ? The Granola bars are like a wider Albatross in shape and either side up lends itself to body/hands forward steering with a long-er stem which to me is very intuitive and easy. When you're standing the bar ends are nowhere near your knees. 

No implication that you need or even could change anything, just pointing out differing ways of going about body and steering positioning. 

[Brian Turner]

I'm one of those riders that has never really felt comfortable standing and climbing no matter what type of bike or setup. Perhaps my form is just bad, or whatever... but I've always preferred to just gear down as low as needed, lean forward and churn away while seated. I'll stand occasionally for very short bursts, but I cannot climb for very long like that. That said, I can see how upright bars would make it difficult. My Gus has Toscos, and to me they are wide enough and flared enough to feel ok while standing, but I would prefer to remain seated upright. The Bosco bars put your wrists at a more inward angle than the Toscos do, and closer to your body, so I guess that's why they aren't as conducive for standing climbs.

[Patrick Moore]

This is interesting not only in a practical way but in a speculative way: to see how different people like to climb and to see the bike designs and builds that encourage their preferred climbing methods.

I've wondered about this when looking at the high, swept-back bars on so many Rivendell builds: it looks as if the resulting position more or less forces you to sit rather than stand, and therefore twiddle rather than mash -- and I've long noted the huge inner cogs on so many Rivendell builds. I recall the awkwardness of standing to climb when riding Indian roadsters; the geometry put the ends of the bars close to your knees, and since I often stood to climb -- single ~70" gear -- I always felt as if I were about to fall over the front wheel.

Of course, you'd not feel quite the same on Rivendells with the long top tubes and very long reachback bars, but all the same neither present the best position for agressive standing.

Me, I feel just the opposite of Brian: if I gear down and spin I quickly run out of breath, and I much prefer to slide back in the saddle, lean forward, and push the crank over TDC at slow rpm in a relatively high gear on gradual climbs, and to stand and mash when I need more power -- I often gear up a cog or so when I transition to a standing position. I suppose the difference is a matter both of individual physiology and habit, but I've been mashing and standing on climbs since I was a boy riding hills at 5K+ feet on my first "entirely by me" bike build age 15 that, because of my complete ignorance, had a single ~90" gear.

[lconley]

I have not felt comfortable standing on the pedals in many years. I sit and spin regardless of the type of bike. On a single speed, I will dismount and walk when the slope is too steep - not often the case in Florida.

I seem to remember a top cyclist from years ago advocating for sitting and spinning, but I cannot remember who it was.

Laing

[DavidP]

Hey Damon - It's a Nitto UI-12 quill stem. This is a welded cromo, -19 deg, 31.8 clamp, removeable faceplate stem. Not quite as nice and definitely not as tall as the brazed Nitto faceplate stems (CR60-3F) that Riv stocks, but my fit didn't need the extra height and I liked the look and reach of a horizontal stem extension.

I've attached a closeup photo of the stem and bars (taken during the build, before the shifters were cabled). Note the stem height is just about max'd where I have it and many will want something with more rise.

-Dave

[Eric Marth]

Hi Mackenzy — I find it uncomfortable to pedal out of the saddle for more than a few strokes with my hands in the primary grip position on swept back bars. With a grip in the 'hooks' of the bars on Albatross, Billie or Ron's Ortho bars it's no problem for me. I've installed Boscos on a bike I built up for a friend and found that the secondary or hooks position ahead of the levers was not very good for climbing or spirited riding. 

I would think given the height of your bars, the tilt of your bars making the grip almost parallel with the ground and the general shape of Boscos that climbing out of the saddle would be uncomfortable and a little unnatural. 

I see you have your stem pretty low, do you wish for lower bars? If so you might consider the Losco or the Billie, they're both plenty wide with lots of sweep back but much less rise. 

[Mackenzy Albright]

I guess I should have made a disclaimer I am not looking for tips on fit or technique. As Patrick mentioned I am just actually generally interested in your physical adaptation of physical technique with evolving bicycle geometry. 

I love the clementine. It's the best climbing bike ive owned, and the fore - aft gives a lot of position variety. I am not going to gain any KOM's but I love the stability and traction for steep and loose climbing vs normal geometry. 

with my sized up clem jr i do find more ability to stand, but dont feel strongly it's necessarily better for climbing, but its kind of comparing oranges and grapefruits. 

[Joe Bernard]

I think your question was clear! My custom with Boscos feels great for sitting and spinning up a hill, if I get to a place where I need to stand I prefer getting off and walking for a minute. There's one route to the market and back here where I always walk one steep part and it's become my walk-and-ride, I enjoy it! 

[Jason Fuller]

My sense with Rivs is that Grant builds bikes for how he likes to ride, and on his local terrain. That sounds selfish and limited in a sense, but I think it's what makes the bikes so great too - they're not trying to find some balance for all sorts of different scenarios, so they're afforded the freedom to really live up to their potential. 

While I've never ridden with Grant, he doesn't strike me as the stand-and-mash type :)   

Those long stays with a spinny gear are a joy to climb with, even with the relatively slack STA, but like you say, it kind of goes against our reflexes coming from things like fixed gear bikes and the like.  I rode Loscos for a bit and they were a lot more ergonomic to hold further forward when climbing out of saddle vs a Bosco, while still giving the same cruising position (with more stem height). Good bars but I am long torso'd so they didn't work for me. Sorry to say I don't have them anymore - but you should try this Billie on my wall ;) 

[brendonoid]

Previous folks have covered most of it here but I'll add my personal experience:

I had previously used Bosco Bars and never really gelled with them so I put the Nitto Bullbar with a very short stem on my Susie as I was worried about swept back bars making trail riding and climbing too awkward. However, with the high stack and long stays I find myself just spinning up hills seated anyway.

When I had Bosco bars (not on a hillibike) I used the front area for out of saddle climbing but it wasn't ideal by any stretch.

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I think my biggest limitation for standing while climbing is not the bar position, but how far forward I can lean my body before running into the stem. On my Cheviot, I have Albastache bars and I lean forward to the point where my body hits my bell mounted on the stem, but it's just enough space for me to comfortably climb out of the saddle.  I rode a Suzie when I tried it from Riv HQ over to Shell ridge.  It had Boscos or similar and I didn't have any trouble standing on the pedals--there was ample space for me to lean forward without hitting the bars--probably because the effective top tube is longer than my Cheviot.  I kinda leaned forward like the arms back Superman pose, but it is a strong position with the arms at the sides and the body leaning forward.  There was plenty of room to the stem for me to be comfortable standing on the pedals, and it was easy to put my weight down on the pedals because it felt like doing dips (without having to support my weight with my upper body because my weight is going into the pedals!).

I think climbing directly out of the saddle in an upright position would feel unbalanced and awkward, so give the Superman pose a try :). The point is I need to lean forward the same angle as the hill in order for my body to be perpendicular to the flat ground so I can use gravity to help push down on the pedals.  To easily visualize this, imagine I am climbing a 90-degree hill.  My bike is pointing straight up to the sky and my back is parallel to the flat earth--if I let go of the handlebars, then I'd land flat on my back.  If I want to "stand" on the pedals, I need to lean forward 90 degrees to have my body upright and use gravity in my favor to pedal. If I lean forward 90-degrees on a 90-degree hill, then my body would be parallel to the bike, and if I let go of the bike, then I'd land on my feet.   I think you can understand what I mean when I say that I need to lean forward the same angle as the hill to be standing straight up relative to the flat ground (and have maximal weight/power from gravity).

Also, I tend to climb out of the saddle not while climbing a long hill, where I would generally spin, but when going over rollers where the gear becomes high and I don't want to shift and would like to make it over the ridge.  Climbing out of the saddle gives me the extra power to make it over the top of the roller without having to shift down and lose my momentum.  I am 90% confident that Grant would climb out of the saddle rather than shift down to get over the roller 90% of the time :).

Toshi in Oakland