Roadeo vs. Hilsen performance differences?

[Michael]

What makes the Roadeo the racier frame (performance-wise)? The geometry? Lighter tubing? Does it transfer power to the wheels better than a Hilsen for some reason?

 

I'm talking performance, not looks or lack of eyelets, etc. Thanks for any info.

[Jeremy Till]

I think mainly the tubing...Roadeo uses super lightweight and thinwall stuff, really not designed for carrying much more than the rider (and a fit one at that--there was some mention of a 200lb weight limit when it first came out) and a small day-ride load.  Probably not the thing for bumpy off road riding either. 

Roadeo also has smaller clearances, using 57mm reach calipers as opposed to the big 55-75mm calipers used on the Hilsen. 

[Christopher Murray]

IIRC in the larger sizes( >57cm?) the Rodeo and Hilsen have the same tubing. I believe this was mentioned when I was at RBW. The difference is in the geo and braze ons.

Cheers!
Zz

[William]

I'm not sure I understand the question in the Original Post.  Michael wrote:

"What makes the Roadeo the racier frame (performance-wise)? The geometry? Lighter tubing?"

A.  Do you mean that you already know for a fact that the Roadeo is a racier performing than a Hilsen, and you want to know what makes it the racier performing bike? 
Or
B.  Do you mean that you know there are differences in geometry and tubing and are asking WHETHER the Roadeo performs better, and if so how? 

Those are two very different questions.  Which one did you mean?

On Sunday, January 20, 2013 12:00:24 PM UTC-8, Michael wrote:

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I have also heard that they are the same, at least in the larger sizes. In any case, if both were built with similar parts and fit, I think it'd be pretty hard to measure a "performance" difference for any given rider.

[Don Compton]

I am a proud Roadeo owner. I had owned a Ram. And, I have test driven a Hilsen at Rivendell Bicycle Works. Mine is a 59cm. While my Roadeo is not a light bike, its fits right in my club rides. The handling is superb and very stable on fast downhills. It feels very similar to my Ram but is slightly more responsive and can handle wider tires. The Hilsen felt very familiar, but just a little less responsive. To me, the Hilsen is better suited to rides requiring fenders and some light carrying capacity (country bike?).

On Sunday, January 20, 2013 12:00:24 PM UTC-8, Michael wrote:

[Michael]

William,
The description on the site led me to believe it is the fastest bike they make, intended for fast club riding and not for touring/commuting/utility/country/ doingsomething riding like their other bikes are described. It even comes with the option for an aheadset type headset.
It says it is their answer to speedy modern CF bikes.
So, to me, this sounds like it is the fastest/only race-like model in current production.

However, it doesn't say what makes it that way.
There is no discussion of geometry or power transfer, etc.
So I was wondering what about this steel bike that is so similar to the Hilsen (minus brazeons) makes it intended for fast riding only.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

One of the most misunderestimated factors contributing to bike performance is a fast-sounding catalog description.

[Peter Morgano]

Down the rabbit hole we go, talking about "fast bikes", blergh. I think there are just so many factors that go into one bike feeling "fast" over another--tires, rider position, crank length, bb, spoke count, type of rims, level of components, rider abilty, wind resistance, terrain, etc. I like to think of the frameset as a foundation of what you want to do but you build it up from there according to its purpose. Can you build a lightweight Bombadil for club rides? I bet you could, but you would be working against its intended purpose. On the other hand though I would imagine Tommy is way "faster" on his new Bombadil than I am on my 70s Peugeot "racing" bike, in this case due to the fact he is a young guy in good shape and I am well not, haha. So the "fast" moniker is pretty misleading on the whole I find.

On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 9:53 AM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thil...@gmail.com> wrote:

One of the most misunderestimated factors contributing to bike performance is a fast-sounding catalog description.

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[RJM]

I am going to be able to answer this  in 4 months or so, that is about when my Roadeo will be coming in. I have been using the Sam as a "go fast" bike for club rides, as it is my only bike so I had to make due. The Roadeo will be my fast bike once I get it, so I will be able to compare the two on similar rides with similar builds. I suspect the Roadeo is going to be a bit more responsive and climb easier, maybe even do that thing Jan always talks about....planing?

 

I think for fast club riding, special attention should be paid to wheels. I am going to think long and hard about what wheels to get for it as I would like the Roadeo to be "fast." Keeping the total bike weight down should help a bit, but it isn't my goal with the Roadeo I went with a threaded steerer so I can use my lugged stem. This kind of goes against the total weight of the bike, but I like to move my stems up and down especially the first year of having a bike and I like the look of quill stems more than threaded. I don't think this will make a difference on how fast the bike is though. Tires, wheels, brifters or not, component selection ect. These are going to make a difference though.

 

This whole "what makes a bike fast" conversation is one I really want to hear now, but I suspect that set up will make the largest difference. The type of tubing and what angles those are put together have to make a difference also...it just has to, right?

[Michael]

I think the simplest way I can put my topic question is: Why does Grant describe it as their bike for fast rides? I am just interested in what it is about this frame, and what they designed into the frame, to make it for that intended purpose. It is not mentioned in their description on the Rivbike.com site for the model, and I am curious.

 

 I don't wanna discuss what makes a fast bike. Just what it is about the Roadeo frame, and what they designed into the frame, that Grant calls it a bike meant for fast rides. How does it differ from the hilsen.

[William]

Michael wrote

"The description on the site led me to believe it is the fastest bike they make... However, it doesn't say what makes it that way"

OK, I'm still kind of guessing what it is you are after, so I'll ask and answer my own questions, and see if that helps at all.  I'm trying to answer what you are asking, but I'm afraid I'm coming off like a jerk.  That's not my intent. 

Q1.  Take a TYPICAL Hilsen set up out there in the world and a TYPICAL Roadeo setup.  Which bike is faster? 
A1.  The Roadeo.  A typical Roadeo has lighter wheels, faster tires, and weighs ~5 lbs less.  A typical Roadeo build puts the rider in a more athletic position over the handlebars, more conducive to powerful riding.

Q2.  Take the TYPICAL Roadeo build in Q1 and swap all his parts to a Hilsen in the same size.  Get the rider in exactly the same riding position.  How much slower will he be on his next club ride?
A2.  Not much slower at all.  I'd wager he would not be slower at all. 

Q3.  Is the Roadeo frameset lighter? 
A3.  A little, but not lighter enough to make you faster

Q4.  Is the Hilsen frameset stronger and stiffer? 
A4.  Yes, a little.  Some think stiffer is faster.  Some think flexier is faster.  Some think comfort all comes from frame flex.  Others say comfort is mostly from tires. 

It's my opinion that the Hilsen is a much more versatile bike, because of clearances and braze ons.  You can do any of several different kinds of builds on a Hilsen, which will influence how fast the bike is.  The Roadeo is less versatile and more specialized to one particular kind of build, which is a fast build. 

If you know you are going to do a fast build, and you'll never change it, get a Roadeo, you'll love it
If you know you are going to do a fast build, and a sport-tour build, and a commute build, and swap around between them at your whim, and you'd like one frame to enable them all, get a Hilsen, you'll love it.

[William]

"Why does Grant describe it as their bike for fast rides? I am just interested in what it is about this frame, and what they designed into the frame, to make it for that intended purpose. It is not mentioned in their description on the Rivbike.com site for the model, and I am curious."

This is an excellent question and I think it goes back to the first sentence on the Roadeo page:

"The Roadeo is our answer to speedy carbon road bikes "

It is a product offering to give people what they are after.  People who are shopping for a racing bike at 5 different shops and consider a Rivendell are conditioned to expect a particular look.  I know I am so conditioned.  I fit a 59cm Hilsen and a 59cm Roadeo.  If I wanted to do a racy build, I would get a Roadeo over a Hilsen because the Hilsen would look weird to my eye with huge brakes and skinny tires.  The Roadeo would look right with skinny tires.  That's it and that's all.  If I did not mind being limited to a racy build, then I would buy the Roadeo.  I have a frame that limits me in exactly the way the Roadeo would limit me.  If I wanted one bike to be a racy bike and be something else at other times, I'd buy the Hilsen and get over the fact that it looks goofy with skinny tires. 

I don't believe Grant claims that the Roadeo is inherently faster than the Hilsen. 

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

My feeling is that when the Rambouillet was supplanted by the AHH, a few people felt that the added tire clearance of the AHH was a performance compromise, somehow. The compromise was more perceived than real, but when a company is trying to sell stuff, perception is everything. So Grant designed a version of the AHH without the added tire clearance or rack braze-ons, both of which pollute the purity and single-mindedness of purpose of a road bike (to the road bike purist). The Roadeo was made for purists, and the ad copy reassures the purist that nothing about the Roadeo is a compromise in the name of versatility. Most/all of that which is written about the Roadeo performance could also be truthfully written about the Hilsen, but the Hilsen customers tend to prize versatility more than speed, so the Hilsen entry emphasizes the traits that make the bike versatile, rather than fast.

[Peter Morgano]

You know, as has been covered a few times on this list the people at RBW are really nice. If you have a question you can reach out to them by old fashioned telephone and talk to them.

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[justin...@gmail.com]

Are the geometries the same? I don't follow enough to know, honestly.

-J

[Jim Mather]

The geometries are quite different. You can compare here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjehUKAztnO8dEFRVEYxUWpxeXNPMHZMeDZINmNUMWc#gid=0

On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 11:08 AM, <justin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Are the geometries the same? I don't follow enough to know, honestly.
>
> -J
>

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[Dan McNamara]

A call to RBW would probably answer any questions but looking at the published Riv geometry Google doc there are differences that would make the Rodeo more of a club bike - shorter chainstays, less rake, slightly different ST and HT angles. Those differences plus component selection add up to something that feels different than the AHH.

I know my Ram feels different than the AHH and it is close to the Rodeo geometry.

Dan

Marin

[Michael]

I am not ready to buy yet, so I don't want to waste their time on the phone at this point.

At this point I am still going with the Hilsen when I get to buy for all its eylet/braze on options, even though I am a saddle bag kinda guy and don't need racks for the riding I do.

The Hilsen sems like the more reasonable frame for me. Plus I think it looks better ;)

 

[ted]

Michael,

As I think others have pointed out, there is a link to a geometry
chart for Riv's models at the bottom of the "frames" page.
If you compare the numbers for same sizes I think the rodeo has less
bb drop (i.e. higher bb), shorter chainstays, steeper seat tubes, and
less fork rake. The rodeo is designed for more moderate sized tires,
and you have the option of a theadless headset (much more common these
days). Although I have not ridden a rodeo I expect the ride and
handling are more responsive / quicker than my AHH. I doubt that a
rodeo is faster in terms of average speed or time trialling up a long
climb. At least not enough faster to notice without careful
comparison. However fast group rides with a race oriented club often
involve a very dynamic close quarters style of riding. For that kind
of riding a quicker handling bike can be a better fit. Also if you are
barely hanging onto a wheel for dear life ( or worse not quite
managing to) its easy for thoughts about a few grams or watts to prey
on your mind (even if they probably wouldn't really matter).

So my take is that the Rodeo is not so much a faster bike, as it is a
bike better suited to the style of riding that pervades race club fast
group rides.

[Bruce Herbitter]

So, generally speaking, lots of folks agree that "speed" comes more from the engine than anywhere else. I have a Road and a Saluki which is not that far off from a Roadeo and AHH comparison. The Roadeo is lighter than the Road is, but not by too much. The Road is about 2 mph on average faster for me over a 30 mile or longer course. For short sprints, I can go equally fast (or slow, if you ask around here about my lethargic pace) on either one. The Road responds faster, has spring and zip and very quick steering. The Saluki carries front  rear luggage without complaint and can actually be steered with that stuff hung on it, and with semi knobby fatter tires on, is reliable on dirt roads/trails too. They do different things better, but the have overlap on what they both do the same.