rene herse crank

[Brian Hanson]

I've been commuting for the past few weeks with one of the new Rene Herse cranks on my AHH.  http://www.compasscycle.com/cranks_bb.html  I haven't seen any reviews on this yet, so I figured I would share a few thoughts/opinions with the group.  I'm not really a crankoholic, and have mainly ridden wider Q mountain cranks.  I mainly wanted to upgrade the bike a bit, and thought a well built crankset would be a nice add.  Something that would last as long as the frame, perhaps.  

I've never had any experience with a narrow tread road bike, and was a bit worried that having a narrow Q would be a problem.  So far that has not worked out to be the case.  I find it comfortable, and natural.  The length of these are 171mm, which is close to what I'm finding to be ideal for me.  I tend to lately favor the 170mm cranks I have on another bike over the 175mm I've been using for the past 20 years. 

The finish and feel of these cranks is indeed very nice, and every bit as good as it has been billed.  The chainrings are nice and thick, but elegant.  To me, these cranks feel more solid than the others I've used lately including Sugino XD, Suntour XC Pro, and modern Shimano Deore and XT cranks, as well as a Race Face outboard bearing set I have on my mtb.   They are very nice to look at, as well, with a highly polished finish, and simple, clean and classy lines that go really well with the Rivendell frame. 

It was recommended by Jan that I use a 110mm bottom bracket, so I ordered one, but decided to try the cranks with a 107mm that I had on already.  They went on easily, and the arms have at least 3-5mm clearance with the chainstays.  The chainline is adequate, as well.  I got 44/28 rings to go with an 11-32 cassette.  This gives me plenty of range for the hilly riding I do in the area.  Bottom line - I highly recommend these.  Love em!

Pics:

http://flic.kr/s/aHsjzzumnw

Brian
Seattle, WA

[Bruce Herbitter]

Very nice looking bike. That copper color is lovely. The cranks do seem narrow, but if they feel right to you, and don't rub from flex when you pedal hard, you have a winner.

[Michael Hechmer]

Thanks for sharing.  I have been thinking about a new crank for an '84 Trek I still ride and your review is helpful.  I assme that the double could be converted to triple?  I think your 44/28 set up makes a lot of sense, although I find I much prefer the shifting pattern with a 14 tooth drop over a 16.  I run a 44/30 White Ind. crank on my Ram and really like it.   I'm considering it, or the DaVinci Crank, which is actually made by White.

BTW, very nicely set up bike.

Michael

[Mitch Browne]

Brian,

When you say chain line is adequate do you mean "OK" or that if you had a 110 BB that you would use that?

I experimented with a TA Carmina triple recently purchased from the list on my Atlantis last week and don't know if it was mental but thought the lower Q factor felt better than my XD2.

Sadly I won't be keeping it and will be posting it for sale soon.

Nice ride.

Mitch Browne

San Luis Obispo

[Ryan Watson]

Brian,

I'm tempted by these, but hesitant since I have 175 on all my bikes. 

I'm curious what tread/q you get with the 107 BB. Did you measure it?

I prefer ALARA Q. (as low as reasonably achievable!) and "reasonably" for me includes things like using the wrong spindle taper or crimping my chainstays with a giant pair of pliers ;-)

Ryan, in Ouray, CO on a 3-day bike tour :-)

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[Tim McNamara]

On May 27, 2012, at 8:38 AM, Mitch Browne wrote:
>
> When you say chain line is adequate do you mean "OK" or that if you had a 110 BB that you would use that?

Chainline isn't that critical when one has multiple cogs on the rear wheel. Modern chains are designed to be run-off line and to tolerate that just fine; chainline is more of an issue with stiff single speed chains (and even those are much more laterally flexible than the chains of yore). As long as the chainrings is lined up roughly in the middle of the cassette, that's good enough.

[RoadieRyan]

Brian,

Beautiful bike, very nice setup. How do you like those pedals? I use
the PD M324's and like their classic looks and versatility but have
wondered about the A530's which look very sleek.

[PATRICK MOORE]

I think the new Herse crank is even nicer than the Pro 5 Vis that I
use on my Rivs, AND they have modern hardware and adequate room
between outer ring and inner arm for modern derailleurs. If I ever get
a nice derailleur bike, those will be at the top of the list.

And $400: when you consider that the new DA cranks (+ bb) cost $100
more, that's not bad at all for a top end crank. And, IMO, these are
far better looking than any other modern crankset.

To Ryan: I've used both A530s and M324s and prefer the latter because
I found the "flat" side more usable. Personally, I also think the
silver M324 looks better, too (I've got one pair of silvers hoarded
after I got rid of my A530s and my black M324).

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For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
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[Joe Broach]

On Sun, May 27, 2012 at 6:38 AM, Mitch Browne <mitch....@gmail.com> wrote:
> When you say chain line is adequate do you mean "OK" or that if you had a
> 110 BB that you would use that?

For the hairsplitters, 107 and 110(.5) Shimano-style cartridge BBs
generally give the same chainline. The 107 is offset to the drive
side, and the 110 is symmetric. The same is true with 113/115/116 and
118/121. I found this out empirically when I tried to nudge the
chainline out a couple of mm on my Romulus by swapping a 115 and then
a 116 for my 113. Nothing changed on the drive side!

I assume other brands that copy Shimano are the same, but I'd be
interested to hear otherwise. And, who knows, standards aren't exactly
standards in the bike world, but I wouldn't expect 107 -> 110 to
affect chainline.

Best,
joe broach
portland, or

[Joe Broach]

On Sun, May 27, 2012 at 12:54 PM, Joe Broach <joeb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Reading what I wrote a little too late. I take that back on the
118/121. I've never actually handled a 121. Do they even exist?

[GeorgeS]

I'm curious about the White Industries hub. Is that the one that is
said to be so noisy? What is your experience?

GeorgeS
New Orleans

On May 27, 3:36 am, Brian Hanson <stone...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Brian Hanson]

Ryan - the Q is 142mm on this guy with the 107BB.  

Mitch - I wouldn't use the inner chainring with the outer cogs, but if you would, you may want the 110-113 BB to get it out a bit more.  I don't have any noticeable rub in the gears I typically use.  I'm happy with the 107.  

Michael - these come in triple configs, as well.

[Brian Hanson]

Ryan - I like the A530s.  Use both sides all the time on two bikes.  The platforms are grippy, and I mainly use them on the commute.  Nice to have options :)

[Michael Hechmer]

My White Hubs sound noisy in the shop, but on the road, above 15mph the sound is hardly noticeable, and in any case is a white noise kind of hum, not a click or rattle.

Michael

[Matthew J]

That would be the Chris King.  In fact, CK has built a whole marketing campaign around the 'angry bees' sound some claim come from the hubs.

[William]

They have a King Hub ringtone! 

[Stonehog]

I agree.  It clicks more than the Shimano XT I had before, but is nowhere near Chris King loud.  Quite nice hub, but it's brand new, so time will tell. I don't find the noise to be noticeable. 

Brian Hanson

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[Bruce Herbitter]

The White M-15 hub is quite noticeable noise wise. I don't find that it bothers me though.

[SISDDWG]

Sugino XD Triple = $119. Rene Herse $440. Difference = $321. That is a
huge difference. Remember, it wasn't that long ago that everyone was
touting the XD as a really good crank. IMO it still is, not saying the
Herse isn't better. But think about it -- $321 more. That can buy a
lot of chains, tires, lube, whatever and keep you rolling for quite
some time. Just my opinion.

[cyclotourist]

Without disregarding the financial impact, that $320 difference is 10% of a $3200 bike (AHH + Riv build kit). Custom paint, Honjos, WI hubs is putting it closer to $4K. If the light weight, low-Q & unique looks are what you're after, not really a deal breaker.
For me, the proprietary chainrings would be a bigger concern over time. Sort of thing to stock up on IMHO. The old adage of if you find something you really like, buy a life-time supply as they'll quit making it at some point.

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Redlands, CA

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[Bruce Herbitter]

Funny, I just put my old XD triple (50/36/26) back on the Rambouillet with an 11 - 30 SRAM cluster after a couple of years riding an upper scale Ultegra (52/42/30) with a SHMINAO 13 - 28.  I caught myself thinking how much better I like the XD......

[Matthew J]

Yes, and it's my opinion (a fact actually, but keeping with the theme) one can buy a Kona for a lot less than a Rivendell.

[Steve Palincsar]

Is this a race to the bottom?

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[Eric Platt]

Maybe a race to the bottom bracket.

 

Can understand why folks would pay the premium for a low Q nicely made crankset.  Not all of us need low Q, though.  Have no problems with Sugino XD2 on a 110 bottom bracket on my Sam Hillborne.  But that would have a huge Q factor for many.  For my use, it's more comfortable.

 

(Was going to compare it to 650B, but am not going there again.)

 

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

[Ablejack]

Beautiful bike. Deserves such a beautiful crankset. The RH is (IMO) the finest gem of any crank available. 

/My brother and I ride Salukis. I have a TA Pro-Vis (46-28) on mine, while he has the RH (46-30). 

On Sunday, May 27, 2012 3:36:06 AM UTC-4, stonehog wrote:

[Matthew J]

Decidedly hope not.  Many expensive products have less expensive alternatives.  People willing to pay for Rivendell may well decide the Sugino is the best crank for their purposes.  But if the Herse fits the rider's needs better, worrying about the price difference after shelling out for a Riv does not really make sense.

> rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.

[Mark Chandler]

There's always this:

http://store.somafab.com/suoxcoplrocr.html 

---

Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 08:43:07 -0700
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: rene herse crank
From: cyclot...@gmail.com
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com

Without disregarding the financial impact, that $320 difference is 10% of a $3200 bike (AHH + Riv build kit). Custom paint, Honjos, WI hubs is putting it closer to $4K. If the light weight, low-Q & unique looks are what you're after, not really a deal breaker.

For me, the proprietary chainrings would be a bigger concern over time. Sort of thing to stock up on IMHO. The old adage of if you find something you really like, buy a life-time supply as they'll quit making it at some point.s.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[Jan Heine]

On May 28, 8:43 am, cyclotourist <cyclotour...@gmail.com> wrote:

> For me, the proprietary chainrings would be a bigger concern over time.
> Sort of thing to stock up on IMHO. The old adage of if you find something
> you really like, buy a life-time supply as they'll quit making it at some
> point.

The new René Herse chainrings are made from 7075 aluminum. They should
last much, much longer than most other rings. I used to get about
25-30,000 miles of racing out of Campagnolo chainrings, and these are
designed to last as long. We optimized the tooth profile of the small
rings for long wear. (The big rings are optimized for easier
upshifts.) So a lifetime supply of chainrings may well be one set of
rings for many riders.

Furthermore, we don't have plans to change designs for the sake of
changing, so we'll offer the rings as long as we remain in business,
which hopefully will be a long time. In fact, our new rings even fit
on classic René Herse cranks made since the 1960s. I suspect it will
be much harder to find the special chainrings for Campagnolo compact
or Shimano's high-end cranks in a decade or two. And quality 110 mm
rings always have been thin on the ground. (Sugino's rings are not
quite as soft as butter, but I rarely got more than 5000 miles out of
them.)

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.
http://www.compasscycle.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

[Steven Frederick]

Yeah, they're quieter than Chris Kings--more along the lines of Campy, and they have a very precision-instrument, high-quality ratchet sound.  Quite nice.  I resisted Boutique hubs for a long time, in favor of good ol' Shimano.  But I'd have a hard time not spec'ing WI for my next wheel build.  Quite impressed with them.

Steve 

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[Steven Frederick]

It's interesting how people prioritize bike build budget money.  Lot's of Riv's proudly roll with fairly low-mid range yet functional parts, Sugino cranks, 105 derailers, Tektro brakes. And I see a lot of Surly's with CK headsets and various high-end bits. "Bike Bling."    I suppose with a Riv the frame IS the bling.  Eh, whatever works! 

Steve

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[Jan Heine]

On May 31, 6:03 am, Steven Frederick <stl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's interesting how people prioritize bike build budget money.  Lot's of
> Riv's proudly roll with fairly low-mid range yet functional parts, Sugino
> cranks, 105 derailers, Tektro brakes. And I see a lot of Surly's with CK
> headsets and various high-end bits. "Bike Bling."

I think a lot depends on how much you ride. 105 parts will be more
expensive than Ultegra in the long run, if you ride more than 2000
miles a year. Quality components offer better durability and/or
improved performance - for example, a high-end crank with narrower
tread (Q factor) and harder-wearing chainrings will be more enjoyable
and not much more expensive in the long-run than a cheap Sugino crank
with soft chainrings.

I learned this early-on. My mid-range Peugeot 10-speed ended up being
the most expensive bike I ever owned, per mile. Once I started riding
seriously, it needed repairs and replacements almost weekly. When I
switched to a custom frame with Campagnolo components, which cost
three times as much to buy, my per-mile cost went way down. At the
same time, my enjoyment of cycling went way up. It can be a win-win
situation, once you get over the sticker shock.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
http://www.bikequarterly.com

[Peter Morgano]

I agree Jan,  but still have a hard time convincing my wife of this fact, Haha.

[PATRICK MOORE]

I have a hard time believing that 105 will wear significantly faster
at a cost-affecting rate at ~2K miles/year. Certainly the comparison
with the sorts of components on a cheap, '70s or '80s 10 speed is
inapt. (At least, the 105 that I am familiar with which is the stuff
from 15 or more years ago; has it gotten hugely worse?) Doubtless with
the kind of miles that Jan and some others put on -- as a fellow
Albuquerquian rider once said to me, "Nine thousand miles last year --
it was a bad year" -- but for most of us mortals doing 3K miles a
year, it's really a non-issue -- especially if you swap out bikes a
lot, as many on this list seem to do.

I put thousands of miles on Alvits and Simplex Prestige, not to
mention P* O* S* components on Indian made roadsters and sure, they
needed more upkeep than the Dura Ace I know, but not *that* much more!

FWIW, the old-stock Cyclotourist chainrings I use on my Rivs, which I
think were pre-modern-hardened alloy, show almost no wear after
thousands of miles; granted, little rain; but much dust.

That said, I would have no problem justifying a R Herse crankset for a
good bike, just for the looks, bling and low Q, not to mention that
it's one of the few reasonably priced cranksets that will give you a
wide range double with a sub-33 inner. Compared to Dura Ace, high-end
SRAM and Campy, they're cheap and they certainly look better.

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 9:48 AM, Jan Heine <hei...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> I think a lot depends on how much you ride. 105 parts will be more
> expensive than Ultegra in the long run, if you ride more than 2000
> miles a year. Quality components offer better durability and/or
> improved performance - for example, a high-end crank with narrower
> tread (Q factor) and harder-wearing chainrings will be more enjoyable
> and not much more expensive in the long-run than a cheap Sugino crank
> with soft chainrings.
>
> I learned this early-on. My mid-range Peugeot 10-speed ended up being
> the most expensive bike I ever owned, per mile. Once I started riding
> seriously, it needed repairs and replacements almost weekly. When I
> switched to a custom frame with Campagnolo components, which cost
> three times as much to buy, my per-mile cost went way down. At the
> same time, my enjoyment of cycling went way up. It can be a win-win
> situation, once you get over the sticker shock.
>
> Jan Heine
> Editor
> Bicycle Quarterly
> http://www.bikequarterly.com
>
> Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/
>

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[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

With all due respect, Jan, that is a highly dubious assertion that 105 cranks will cost less per mile than Ultegra cranks. The MSRP difference in the crank is $100 ($360 for Ultegra and $260 for 105), If you assume the chainrings to be the primary wear item, you could buy the 105 crank and spend the extra $100 on some new (supposedly more durable) Ultegra rings to use when the 105 rings wear out. Now we're at the same price, and we've got two sets of chainrings for the less costly crank. That to me sounds like the 105 crank will give more miles for the same dollars. Of course, there's the probability that the cranks themselves could break, but that probability is slim with either model. How to compare two very small probabilities and translate it usefully to dollars/mile?

That an old Peugeot was costly to maintain is not too surprising. Those things are money pits. Would an equivalently priced, say, Miyata with Sun Tour parts, of the same vintage, have been less costly to maintain? I think yes, all else being equal, and barring crashes, and other mishaps. I can point at numerous Schwinn Varsities and similar machines that have been abused in many ways by many people for 40 years, and they're still on the road. Arguably, the Varsity is cheap for other reasons, but durability isn't one of them.

Anyway, I suspect the dollars to durability correlation to be a weak correlation at best, and impossible to discern in the real world. This is the kind of overly simplistic thing you read in an article in Bicycling that attempts to give first-timers some basic knowledge to buy a first road bike. But even Bicycling doesn't have the audacity to make a definitive claim in terms of dollars per mile.

I agree that a crummy bike will be less enjoyable and will need repairs, but 105 parts are far from crummy.

[newenglandbike]

For those who are using Sugino cranks:     I've been using the Surly steel 110bcd chainrings on my Sugino XD and AT cranksets for a while now, because of the softness issue with the Sugino rings-  they just wear out way too fast.      Definitely no issues with the steel rings.   they are great.

I like the gearing flexibility that new RH cranks offer, and agree with previous posters, that the price is still a small part of the cost of a good bike.


-Matt

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

I use TA chainrings for this exact reason. They last a mighty long time!

I'm always a bit hesitant about proprietary parts. Nothing wrong with them at all, but I would invest in an extra set of rings. If they're only available from one source in the whole world, even with good intentions, that source could dry up at some point. And I'd have something to pass on to my heirs! :-)

[RJM]

I do agree that spending the cash up front is better off in the long run, especially if you are putting quite a few miles on the bike.  My Roadeo that I am ordering will be using the new RH crankset, I do hope they live up to their hype. I suspect they will.

[Corwin Booth]

I've been riding the Herse cranks for a few months now, and really like them... I went with a 48/30. My main reason for getting them was the desire for a compact double with a smaller-than-34 (I ride in the Berkeley Hills a lot... love my 30t!). Shifting up for the 18-tooth jump works nicely.

I do have one issue. In order to make the shift onto the big chainring, the derailleur cage is pushed out far enough and the Q is low enough that the crank arm rubs the cage as I pedal. At the moment, I just back the cage off a bit after I shift up (friction shifting). I wrote Jan about it, and he pointed out that the Campy "Mirage FB" front derailleur is pretty wide, and that, together with the 18t jump, might be the cause. I know a lot of folks here use that derailleur, so I thought I'd point out the problem.

On that note, anybody got a good suggestion for a different front derailleur?

Corwin

[Brewster Fong]

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 08:48 -0700, Jan Heine wrote:
>
> I think a lot depends on how much you ride. 105 parts will be more
> expensive than Ultegra in the long run, if you ride more than 2000
> miles a year. Quality components offer better durability and/or
> improved performance - for example, a high-end crank with narrower
> tread (Q factor) and harder-wearing chainrings will be more enjoyable
> and not much more expensive in the long-run than a cheap Sugino crank
> with soft chainrings.

I'm not convinced Ultegra or Dura Ace derailleurs or brakes last longer
than 105. For some components, the extra price brings you a nicer
finish and possibly some less weight, but not necessarily greater
durability.

[Jan Heine]

On May 31, 9:46 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>
wrote:

> With all due respect, Jan, that is a highly dubious assertion that 105
> cranks will cost less per mile than Ultegra cranks.

Sorry I wasn't clear - I was NOT referring to the cranks in
particular, but the 105 components in general. It appears that
especially the lower-grade brake-shift-levers wear out with alarming
frequency. Hub bearings are another issue where extra money spent
usually is well-spent.

I agree with you that more money doesn't always buy you better
quality, but in the bicycle world, the correlation still holds to a
large degree. Better designs, better bearings, better seals, higher-
grade materials all bring more longevity.

Just as an example, after having gone through two sets of Shimano PD-
A520 pedals in four years, I hope that the new "Ultegra-level" PD-A600
pedals will last a lot longer, and be less expensive per mile, not
counting the aggravation of having to replace parts on my bike.

It is true, however, that for many parts, extra money doesn't buy you
better performance or durability. Just to quote a simple example,
inexpensive seatposts may be ugly, but most work just fine. I also
suspect that 105 brakes will stop as well as more expensive ones
(assuming they use similar pads), and last as long. And of course, the
ultimate in bargain basement parts, the old Mafac Racers, in fact are
great brakes, especially if you equip them with modern pads.

[Kelly]

Jan,

It was my impression that 105 would actually out last ultra and dura-ace.  It was heavier and was the best choice for touring bikes and such.  The advantages of the Dura-Ace was weight and shifting ramps .. especially for the sprinters.   For everyday riding the heavier gage material was stouter and lasted longer.  My impression only no facts to back it up.  

I did just retire a tour bike to loaner status that has been on the road for  me since 2002 and still on the same group. (105)  

Just because it's better for racing and cost more doesn't mean it's "better" or will last longer.. shimano anyway.  My opinion only.. 

Kelly

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[Michael Hechmer]

I have noticed that a lot of people swap frames out with great rapidity.  Over the course of my life I have not done this and so my current collection of frames, all purchased new include, an '84 Trek, an 88 Marinoni, a "99 Surly, a 2004 Rambouilet,a 
2008 Ebisu, and a 2009 Bilenky Tandem.  My wife rides an '84 Specialized Sequoia, purchased used, and my daughter is still riding the '85 Bianchi I purchased new for her brother.  Not having swapped frames around has allowed us to continually upgrade the wheels and components.  I have easily been able to add PW BB, White Hubs & cranks, Paul's brakes, Cane Creek levers, Alpina & White cranks and Nitto bling.  No regrets about buying the best components I could get.  I just may go for the Rene Herse Cranks on the Trek,  just because I don't like the looks or that awful hidden bolt on the Sugino.  At m my age a 44/34/24 is starting to have some appeal!

Michael   

[Matthew J]

White makes wonderful stuff.  

If you absolutely need to have whisper quiet high end hubs, check out Royce.  Not sure what they do differently than White, King or Phil, but their hubs are very quiet and roll very smooth.  

Royce are pricey little devils though.  As far as I know, the only way to get them is to go to one of the high end UK on line shops.

[Brewster Fong]

On Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:57:38 PM UTC-7, Matthew J wrote:

White makes wonderful stuff.  

If you absolutely need to have whisper quiet high end hubs, check out Royce.  Not sure what they do differently than White, King or Phil, but their hubs are very quiet and roll very smooth.  

If you want quiet, smooth and cheap hubs get Shimano. I have two pair of DA hub wheels and they are so smooth and quiet. I have friends with ultegra hubs and they're quiet too. Compare to alot of boutique hubs, these are the best.

Royce are pricey little devils though.  As far as I know, the only way to get them is to go to one of the high end UK on line shops.

At Total Cycling, Royce rear hub sells for about $255. Still cheaper than say CK and a bit less than a White Ind.hub. Good luck!

[Mark Chandler]

My favorite "bargain" cranks are Shimano's FC-R4550.  At one point, I had three of them in service, but I'm down to just two sets (I sold one of the bikes).  The 4550s are non-series components, and can be purchased quite cheaply online.  The inner (34t) chainring has proved to be quite durable, especially compared to the stock rings found on the Sugino XD cranks.  In fact, Shimano specs the same inner ring on the R600 and R700 cranksets (which sell for more than the R4550).

Would it be more cost-effective to "upgrade" to an Ultegra crank?  Probably not.  I'd rather take the money saved on the cranks and spend it on chains, and replace those at the appropriate interval to increase the other drivetrain components' lifespan.

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Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 09:46:11 -0700
From: thil...@gmail.com
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: rene herse crank

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