Bottom bracket removal help

[Tim]

Help! I have an older Hilsen, at least from 2011, and the BB has shelled out. I put it on the stand and find that my Park BBT-22, bottom bracket tool, doesn't fit. So I'm seeing that is for a 20 spline BB and as best as I can tell by counting, twice, my BB has 18 splines. That doesn't seem to line up with any size on the Park website. When I look at the Hobson Zingo tool on the Riv site, it seems from the picture that there are 18 splines. I may have had a Phil Wood BB put on the bike back in 2015 or so, but I honestly don't remember. I have built up 2 or 3 Rivs but I'm not sure I've installed more than one or two BBs, and definitely none on the Hilsen. I'd have thought I bought the Park tool for those installation but wonder why the Hilsen wouldn't be the same as the others. Any suggestions would be helpful as I've been working several bikes and am tired of going to the LBS and asking dumb  questions. 

Peace,

Tim forever chasing my tail when mechanicin' Kirch

[Bill Lindsay]

Phil mounting rings definitely have 18 splines, and any sealed bottom bracket you buy from Riv that is not Phil would have 20 splines, and the BBT-22 would fit any of those.  It seems certain to me that you've got a Phil BB in your Hilsen, and you don't have a Phil tool handy to remove it.  Send photos if you want to be sure.  The easy thing to see with your eyes is that MOST sealed units have a flange that allows it to tighten TIGHT against the outer surface of the BB shell on the drive side (aka the "fixed cup"). Phil mounting rings don't have a "fixed cup". Neither has a flange. One tightens them against each other with a little blue loc tite in the threads.  

So if your fix is to replace your Phil BB with another Phil BB, then you maybe should invest in Phil tools.  If your fix is to replace your Phil BB with a more universal sealed BB that will be compatible with your existing BBT-22 tool, then maybe you should pay a shop to remove the Phil BB.  The mounting rings are valuable, and the bearings can often be replaced on the BB unit, so don't throw away the old stuff, unless you really don't want the clutter.  

Your interpretation that the Hobson Zingo BB tool has 18 splines is almost certainly a mistake.  I counted the splines in the photo on the website and it's 20, not 18. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Tim]

Thanks once again Bill! I bought that bike from Peter White in 2011 when I thought I had ordered one from a new Riv shipment but there was a misunderstanding. So I also emailed Peter and he confirms he built the bike with a Phil BB. It is a symmetrical 110.5 Campy BB as the bike has a Campy racing triple. Now I also remember I had the BB serviced around 2015 at a LBS while working on the road, prior to PBP. Anyway, I really like that drivetrain and recently got a lightly used identical crank replacement so I think I'd like to stay with the Phil BB, rather than start monkeying around with my limited mechanical abilities and have something that has worked great for 15 years not work great anymore. Would that be your recommendation?  

Peace,

Tim Kirch

Olathe, KS

[Josh C]

Bill is right. Phil has a proprietary tool for those BB’s. I recently had one go bad, and I mean crunchy bad bad, in about 2 years of normal riding. I decided to just have my LBS pull it, and installed a basic BB that I can manage with the tools that I own. I did look into having the Phil BB serviced but I believe it was something like $70 plus shipping. I wasn’t impressed enough with it ton begin with to spend another $70 on it. I do like the idea of service over trash though. I might have done that if not for the extra tools I’d need. 

[Bill Lindsay]

Tim,  

Yes, if you have a set up that you like, then I would indeed recommend you replicate/restore that setup.  Source a new Phil BB with the same taper and length, and pay a shop with a tool to pull the old unit and fire the new one in.  Then maybe send the old unit out for bearing replacement and order one of the compact Phil tools in the same order.  Then you'll be doubly-prepared for next time.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Piaw Na]

Yes, if you have a set up that you like, then I would indeed recommend you replicate/restore that setup.  Source a new Phil BB with the same taper and length, and pay a shop with a tool to pull the old unit and fire the new one in.  Then maybe send the old unit out for bearing replacement and order one of the compact Phil tools in the same order.  Then you'll be doubly-prepared for next time.  

I used to be a Phil loyalist, but since 2009, I've. been convinced that the shimano bullseye style cranks are better for easy install and removability.  The new style external BB bearings last as long as the Phils and are definitely easier to get parts for and maintain.  They are good enough that when I build a bike for my wife or kids, even if the rear derailleur is now using SRAM parts, I still use the Shimano system for the crank. We travel sufficiently that the ease of installing or removing cranks when traveling is a big enough deal to make this. For my non-travel bikes I'm not so picky.

[Ron Mc]

Holy cow, guys - Amazon

https://www.amazon.com/Pawfly-20-Tooth-Compatible-Octalink-Truvativ/dp/B0FP2BTS3N/ref=sr_1_2_sspa

[Benz Ouyang, Sunnyvale, CA]

If Tim wants to stay with the Campagnolo Racing Triple cranks, he'll need a BB with ISO taper instead of JIS taper, even discounting spindle length.

The thing with Phil Wood BBs is that you can just replace the cartridge bearings. You don't even technically need Phil Wood bearings – any 6903 (ID: 17mm, OD: 30mm, width: 7mm; aka 61903) cartridge bearing will fit, and one can go pretty inexpensive with such a commodity cartridge bearing size, even if Phil Wood originals are "only" about $20 each. The issue is trying to find a shop with the right tools, but one can probably clobber together something once you understand how it's done properly.

The Phil Wood spine tool, on the other hand, is unique and can't be clobbered together. So you have to buy, beg, borrow, or steal one (or two; don't ask how I know) to do the job. @Tim, you're not anywhere close to me, or I'll loan you mine.

BTW, the blue Loctite is a must for assembly. Don't ask how I know.