Kickstand plates, what's up with that?

[Joe Bernard]

I thought I'd bring this over here instead of continuing to hammer Leah's 'Using Your Rivendell' thread. 

Do we have any reports of plates separating from the stays from a single-leg kickstand, or are they all double-leggers? My experience with both is this: 

I used a double-legger on a Clem and could really load that bike up, I'm familiar with that rocking sensation of all the weight torquing on the stand. On my custom I use a single leg (the stock one that came on Clem completes a few years ago) and it's not very strong. It supports the bike fine and I can put a small shopping load in the bags, but as soon as I start to overdo it I can feel the bike getting wobbly like the stand wants to give out on me. My guess in this scenario is the single-legger is warning me before the plate gets too stressed, whilst the double will let you load all day until the plate gives up. 

Whaddyathink? 

Joe Bernard 

[Jay Lonner]

I agree Joe - a bike with a single-leg kickstand isn't super stable and will only tolerate so much weight before it topples, which acts like a sort of pressure release mechanism that keeps the mounting plate from getting too stressed. A bike with a double-leg kickstand is very stable, allowing you to really load it up, and the constant rocking horse motion with a lot of weight can torque the plate pretty easily. I also agree with the thought stated earlier that the kickstand plates on Hunqs of my generation are probably underengineered and prone to fail in this way. Jobst Brandt has come up recently, I'd have loved to hear his thoughts on the matter!

In any case I've soured on double-leg kickstands, and have lived without a kickstand of any sort for years now and don't really feel the lack.

Jay Lonner

Bellingham, WA

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[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

I was disturbed that that turn in the conversation. A kickstand plate isn’t something I’d thought one could wreck, but you know, Marc broke his kickstand plate on his Hunq; he mentioned it on our ride last week. Huh. Also, I snapped my kickstand on my way to the Philly Bike Expo. It was the strangest thing, and now I feel like I gotta really examine that kickstand plate to be sure nothing serious happened there. I had put the bike diagonally into my Honda van. It was upright, but to be safe, I put the kickstand down, hoping it would protect my Platypus from tipping. It rocked back and forth on the kickstand for the 10 hour drive and when I went to unload the bike, the kickstand had snapped. I still can’t figure out how exactly there was enough force to do that. My bike was completely unloaded. No harsh movements - just a repetitive rocking on the drive. Yikes.

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

https://www.rivbike.com/products/pletscher-kickstand-hardware?variant=23336090241

Save the plate! Add some weight!

-Kai

[Leah Peterson]

I read the product description which warns of over tightening and ruining the frame. And then I thought of my new phone handlebar mount that affixes to the bar like a vice and wondered if I’m ruining my Billie Bars! I find myself having to tighten it a smidge now and then, and I wonder if it’s because it’s mashing the aluminum Billie Bar. Can anyone offer an opinion here? (I got a new iPhone and it’s huge and heavy, for what it’s worth.)

On Nov 6, 2022, at 7:10 AM, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY <kaivi...@gmail.com> wrote:

https://www.rivbike.com/products/pletscher-kickstand-hardware?variant=23336090241

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[J J]

Thanks for kicking the kickstand plates to a new thread, Joe!! I'm sorry I veered off your original topic, Leah!

I looked back at the email exchanges I had with Riv about the severed plate. Below I included the photo I had sent them.

Their responses were interesting:

1. The kickstand plate on Hunq is designed for the singles (my emphasis added)
   
2. The doubles have more torque and are heavier so it tends to peel the plate back after a lot of use. 
   
3. Yes, you can definitely just use the chainstay sandwich set and it'll be problem solved. Run the long bolt through the plate and it'll be good to go. It's not a load bearing connection so don't worry about it peeling back. 
   
4. A competent welder could fix it easily, but I wouldn't even worry about it.

What I wonder about is at what point Rivendell determined that the plate was designed for single kickstands on the Hunq. I suspect they were surprised  to see numerous instances of these peeling plate problems because Riv tends to over-engineer and overbuild things. If it was originally designed for singles, I don’t think Riv would have sold me a double and installed it on my Hunq as part of my original purchase order, parts list they recommended, and build they did for me.

Whether designed for single or double kickstands, I did not take any chances on subsequent bikes in this household: on the Wilbury I used a chainstay sandwich mounting set even though it is a single kickstand. (See second photo.) It's not as elegant as mounting directly to the built-on plate, but it does give some peace of mind.

Leah, as far as your phone mount goes, I think your bars are probably safe if you're tightening it by hand. Even if your forearms are as strong as Popeye's, I suspect that the mount itself would break before you could torque it down enough by hand to impact the Billie bars. The chainstay mashing can happen with sufficient torque that can only come from the leverage you can get with a wrench. I'm not sure even Popeye could mash the steel chain stays by hand :) 

[Marc Irwin]

I did break the kickstand plate on my Hunq the first year I had it.  I'm not sure what exactly caused it, but I was using a Pletscher two legged kickstand on several overnight and week long tours.  The bike was heavily loaded and I had never trimmed the length of the kickstand legs.  I suspect the extra leverage and weight was enough to tear the plate from the brazing.  Riv offered to replace the plate if I shipped the bike back, but I had them send me a new plate so I could have it done locally.  I decided against it because it was not a structural defect and just went without.

Marc

[Piaw Na]

I'm curious as to how much load you folks are putting on the kickstand? When I bought my triplet/quad Co-Motion Periscope Trident, the shop talked me into letting them install a kickstand. My son was 3.5 years old at the time. After about 3 years of use the kickstand bent and I ditched it and haven't missed it whatsoever. It rattled, worked itself loose, and simply wasn't worth the effort (it was a double-legged Pletscher), but the kickstand plate never had an issue. Bear in mind that the triplet was 65 pounds empty, and when loaded with a touring load would exceed 80 pounds. I know Rivendells have a reputation for being heavy but I doubt if any of them compare to my Co-Motion.

[Eric Floden]

The plate came off my Bomba this year. I am far from the first owner, but I only used it with a two-legged stand,

and never with more than a light load on the bike

Signed

Ilene

EricF Vancouver

[aeroperf]

It is certainly not just Riv bikes.
My second bike is a Soma Saga Disc, which has the same geometry as my Sam but with a slightly lower top tube.
They even warn about the problem (first and last paragraphs):
https://www.somafab.com/archives/product/saga-disc-frame-set-2

I use Kai's solution on the Sam.  No hint of a problem yet.

[lconley]

Now y'all got me thinking. My cargo bike is a first shipment Clementine. I had been using a double kickstand with a sandwich plate, but when I filed the hole in the plate off-center to let the double kickstand offset to clear the 2.15 tire better, I went back to the allen bolt. So now I got the Dremel tool out and worked on one side of the sandwich plate so that I can use it with the offset kickstand. I wish the sandwich plates were wider. Probably need a little more grinding.

The kickstand plate on my Gus is definitely thicker and already has an offset hole - I use a single kickstand on it.

Laing

On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 1:12:04 AM UTC-4 Joe Bernard wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

Seconding Jim's thoughts about your phone mount. I see a turn-by-hand screw and plastic clamp, you'll break the clamp before crushing the bar if you ever screwed it down that hard. 

A little blue Loctite on the threads of that screw should keep it tight. 

[Kim Hetzel]

I thank-you Joe Bernard for diverting Leah's 'Using Your Rivendell' thread into a separate thread about "Kickstand plates, what's up with that ?"

Upon you doing this, your timing is perfect. Like I mentioned previously, I just installed my new Pletscher two legged kickstand and the new rubber shoes for the feet of the stand on my Clem Smith Jr. "L" bike. I had the same set-up on my 2008 Surly Long Haul Trucker with no issues in the short time that I owned it.

I am very grateful to read all the valuable input and experiences with their kickstand plates.

What I plan on doing is to remove my Pletscher two legged kickstand and put the single kickstand back on my bike for the time being. I am going to order the Pletscher kickstand hardware from Rivendell and install the rubber chain stay protectors with the long bolt and reinstall the two legged kickstand. I want to preserve my kickstand plate being the third owner in less than a year.

Kim Hetzel

Yelm, WA.

[Joe Bernard]

[ I thank-you Joe Bernard for diverting Leah's 'Using Your Rivendell' thread into a separate thread about "Kickstand plates, what's up with that ?" ]

I'm always here to help! 🙋‍♂️ Or annoy people, depending on your POV! 😂

I'm definitely going to keep my one-legger and try not to snap anything. I tried kickstandless for a few weeks and it drove me nuts trying to figure out how to part my bike with scraping it on poles and walls. Kickstands for me! 

[Joe Bernard]

Man that's alotta typos.

* how to park my bike without scraping it on poles and walls.

[Jeffrey Arita]

My wife and I each had Rivendells (me an AHH, my wife Betty Foy).  Both frame models each came with kickstand plates (yay!).  We spec'd both bikes with Greenfield single leg sidestands.  To our knowledge, the kickstand plates remained sturdy and attached.  But, both bikes were not loaded with a lot of gear or stuff - no racks and panniers, groceries, etc.  My wife did commute with her BF and she did carry extra clothing and shoes, but that was pretty much it.

We've since sold the Rivs but definitely see the need for some sort of sidestand, especially while loaded touring.  We've got friends that have purchased Click-Stands and they hold a very well loaded bicycle.  The guy builds a solid product.  Just remember to use the front brake band and you're good-to-go.  I ended up making our own from tent pole pieces after seeing how simple they were.  Another possible solution that won't stress out any part of the bicycle.

http://www.click-stand.com/

Leah: if you are concerned about your smartphone bicycle mount, consider getting a Quad Lock.  They are pricey, but we feel it is well worth it.  We've used them for years now (6+) cyclotouring on- and off-road and they have kept our phones safe and secure.

https://www.quadlockcase.com/collections/shop-cycle

Good luck,

Jeff & Lori Arita

Claremont, CA

[Brian Turner]

Maybe this is the wrong question to ask, but is it too tall an order to expect a kickstand plate that doesn’t shear off under normal circumstances? I mean, I figure if anyone is going to design a proper kickstand plate to fit a variety of stands and applications for use, it would be Rivendell, no?

On Nov 6, 2022, at 6:00 PM, Jeffrey Arita <jeffre...@gmail.com> wrote:

My wife and I each had Rivendells (me an AHH, my wife Betty Foy).  Both frame models each came with kickstand plates (yay!).  We spec'd both bikes with Greenfield single leg sidestands.  To our knowledge, the kickstand plates remained sturdy and attached.  But, both bikes were not loaded with a lot of gear or stuff - no racks and panniers, groceries, etc.  My wife did commute with her BF and she did carry extra clothing and shoes, but that was pretty much it.

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[Leah Peterson]

Whew, thanks, guys! Super relieved. You have no idea. 

On Nov 6, 2022, at 2:10 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Seconding Jim's thoughts about your phone mount. I see a turn-by-hand screw and plastic clamp, you'll break the clamp before crushing the bar if you ever screwed it down that hard. 

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[Joe Bernard]

You're welcome! Although I now realize my follow-up was completely redundant, i didn't notice Jim had mentioned the plastic clamp, too, I just repeated what he said. Lame! 🤪

[Jason Fuller]

The Bombadil, despite being such a burly bike itself, has a most dainty kickstand plate - so much so that I've removed the kickstand from that bike just to avoid bending it and potentially damaging the chainstays in the process. Grant recognized the shortcoming and thickened the plate in subsequent models but like Joe rightly noted, the double leg kickstands are dangerous if not careful and this is, to my understanding, why Riv stopped selling them. 

[J J]

So here’s a pic of the plate on an unpainted Glorius, which gives a pretty good  view of the weld to one of the chainstays. (We’ve not bothered to put the kickstand mounting hardware on this yet because it’s lightly ridden and has not carried but the smallest loads.) 

I agree that the plates are dainty relative to the sheer burliness of bikes like the Bombadil and Hunqapillar. I also don’t see any technical reason the plates could not be reinforced to withstand the sorts of loads these burly bikes are built for. I would be fine with the additional weight it would probably take.  I love how practical a double kickstand is and I’m so used to it that I can’t imagine using a single on my Hunq.

Joe, nothing you wrote was lame…  I think I alluded to the phone mount being a weak point in Leah’s scenario without naming it specifically, and I feel much more secure knowing you agree with my assessment!  

[Mark C]

I don't think the single kickstands put all that much stress on the plate. The double stands are a whole nother thing. I have no idea how people use theirs, but there is a temptation to push the bike off of the stand (like on a motorcycle) rather than pick the rear of the bike up and close the stand. That puts a lot of stress on the front of the plate that could easily lead to the kind of damage shown here. These stands are handy for keeping the bike upright with loads, and there shouldn't be excessive stress in that position. On recumbents, people even try to sit on the bike while on the stand! - not a good idea.

[amill...@gmail.com]

It’s been my consistent observation and experience that kickstands cause more damage than they offer any “solution.”

It’s always been easy to lean my bike against something. Sometimes I even lean it on the ground. It’s never fallen off the ground. 

Best,

Aaron in El Paso 

On Nov 7, 2022, at 08:41, Mark C <wvfi...@comcast.net> wrote:



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[Johnny Alien]

I'm a "leaner" as well.

[Will Boericke]

If you can't find something to lean it on, keep riding.

[Kim Hetzel]

Hey !.... Just lean into the wind.

Kim Hetzel

Yelm, WA.

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[Toshi Takeuchi]

A sad, but true story.  As a "roadie", having a kickstand was not normal, so I didn't get a kickstand for my wife's Betty Foy.  When I picked up the beautiful bike with her at Riv, I leaned the bike against a sign while I was getting ready to load it onto the car.  Just then, the bike slid off the sign, scratched the top tube and fell to the ground.  I profusely apologized to my wife (she doesn't like the idea of beausage right from the start), and I found some nail polish that was tolerable in hiding the damage to the paint.  Needless to say, I got her a kickstand so she wouldn't have to endure that pain again.

Most of my bikes have kickstands now :).

Toshi

[Garth]

My Raleigh three speed in the 70's may have had a kickstand, and yet even with one, the bike can still fall over if the ground or the kickstand itself isn't "just right". Where I ride now out in the country they would be of no value as the terrain where I stop is highly "irregular". Even if they were effective, I still would not use one as I always have something to lean it against, or on .... yeah .... the ground never fails and quite secure. My bikes, mostly the Bombadil which like all such frames are too wheel floppy for my preference, have fallen over a few times, mostly at home outside the garage on asphalt, with nothing more than a scuffed bar end brake lever.  Where I live, flat level ground is very rare. Three cheers for living in the country ! ! !  Sure, carrying a strap to secure the front wheel is an idea, or some other doohickey ..... but going through all that every time you stop.... sheesh .....too much !

Just ride like the Wind .... It never fails and never falls over !

[Kim Hetzel]

"Ride like the Wind"- The Youngbloods

[Richard Rose]

I have felt exactly the same for almost almost 50 years. Touring on my Clem last July my double kickstand was an absolute joy. While everyone else was looking around for something to lean on I was chilling. When their bikes were falling over, mine was solid. Plus, the nature of the Clem L, with no top tube along with the Bosco bar make unfriendly to the “lean”. The stand has become a favorite feature of the bike. But I am just an old slow guy:)

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 7, 2022, at 12:33 PM, Will Boericke <wboe...@gmail.com> wrote:

If you can't find something to lean it on, keep riding.

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[Kim Hetzel]

Right on, Richard.

Kim Hetzel

Yelm, WA.

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[J J]

Interesting discussions about benefits of and problems with kickstands. 

Richard, I'm totally with you about how useful the double is. 

For fun I looked back on Riv's website about 10 years ago (specifically Oct 2011) to see what they had written about kickstands in general and the double Pletschers in particular:

————————————————————————

KICKSTANDS

• Every bike that isn’t strictly a race bike will benefit from a kickstand, but kickstands turn off people by the tens of thousands. Why? Because of old associations with cheap bikes? That may be it. It must be it. But they’re no less functional on an expensive bike, and the expensive bike is the one you’d most like to not fall over, isn’t it? The one you’d least like to see topple?
• Clamp on kickstands can smash and wreck thin chainstays…so if you have a history of stripping the threads on screws and peanut butter jar lids, stay away. Wrap the stays with bar-tape. Clamp securely but not oversecurely. Or better yet, get one of the Pletscher clamp-cushions we offer.
• Few expensive bikes have brazed-on kickstand plates, but most of ours (not the Roadeo) do. That makes kickstands easy and avoids clamping damage. But it is possible to rip the weld apart if you, like, sit on the bike and fall over on the kickstand side. It has happened. No need. Be careful, and enjoy your kickstand.
  
• We sell the Swiss-made Pletscher model, not the almost as good Greenfield. The story we heard is that Pletscher developed the inner spring mechanism, and Greenfield has adopted it (in a business agreement). Either way, they’re both good.

PLETSCHER TWIN-LEGGER

• Single-leggers are fine & the way to go for daily use.
  
• But if the lean angle exceeds such and such and the weight is more than so and so, a single-legged kickstand will be overwhelmed.
  
• This Pletscher Two-Legger thrives in  those conditions.
  
• We wouldn't offer it if it weren't spectacular. Here's how it is:
  
  • -- It works great.
  • -- It's clever.
  • -- It's Swiss.
  • -- It has heritage without being trendy and coveteous.
  • -- It's affordable, although just barely.
  • -- You can't buy it at the Five-and-Dime.
• It weighs about 1.6 pounds.
  
• As is the case with the single-letter kickstand, you have to cut it to size.
  
• Here's what you do: [....]

[Michael Baquerizo]

leaning is all fine and good until you throw a kid on the back of your bike. my 32 pounder goes on while my pletscher double is out. sam hillborne.

[amill...@gmail.com]

Good point, Michael!

My kids ride on the Mac ride up front which helps with that. I insert or remove them while straddling the top tube. That would be hard to do with a rear seat. 

Best,

Aaron in El Paso 

On Nov 7, 2022, at 18:46, Michael Baquerizo <mbaqu...@gmail.com> wrote:

leaning is all fine and good until you throw a kid on the back of your bike. my 32 pounder goes on while my pletscher double is out. sam hillborne.

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[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

I once called up Bruce Gordon asking him if he would sell/recommend a child seat for his racks. He gave me a earful! A short summary is that "you wouldn't carry a sack of potatoes that way, so don't carry your kid that way. Get a trailer!" 

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[John Phillips]

I remember these discussions from 7 years ago. I took my kickstand off and bought a Click Stand just to be safe before I damaged the plate on my Hunq. Riv said plates on Waterford Riv's were thinner than the Taiwanese Riv's.

I thought I remembered someone thinking riding on rough roads had been enough for the weight of their single leg kickstand to twist and damage the plate on their bike but I haven't found the thread yet.

Leah, your kickstand snapping in the back of your card is a completely different flavor of "yikes?!?!"

John