Advice on Choosing a New Rivendell Appaloosa, Hillborne or Clem

[Jonathan Donehower]

This is my first post.  I have been commuting regularly now for over a year and ready to buy a new bike with my wife's support. We will be going to one car and VW will partially subsidize this purchase with the Diesel Scandal settlement.  I am struggling to decide which model to buy and was wondering what advice you all might have.  I am debating between the Sam, Joe and Clem.  I realize there is probably no bad choice.   I currently have two bikes.  I have a Rivendell Romulus I purchased from a friend but it isn't my first choice for commuting.  I also converted a Jamis Nova Steel bike (probably similar to the cross check) to a more relaxed ride with the Soma Oxford Bars.  I enjoy the bike but thinking I want the flexibility of larger wheels, and a more upright position.  Currently running 32 mm. I don't really go on bike tours since riding the Oregon Coast with the wrong equipment 9 years back but as my kids grow up, I would like that flexibility. It would mostly be for weekend rides, fire roads and primarily commuting.

The Joe Appaloosa seems to be a reflect Grant's latest thinking on bikes.  It seems like a fantastic bike but perhaps overkill for what I ride.  I am not sure I need 45 mm tires and 52 CS.  But then I think perhaps I should just go all in on the Rivendell philosophy instead of taking baby steps.  The Joe seems like the heir to the Atlantis reflecting what Grant has learned over the last decade.

The Clem Smith Jr seems like a wonderful bike and very similar to the Joe.  I can't figure out after reading the lists what the real differences would be beyond lugs.  I have some concern with the sizing.  My PBH of 85cm would put me at a 52 in the Clem (55 in the Joe).  I am at the top end of the sizing.  I am 6 ft with shorter legs. In fact the 52 would fit both my wife at 5'3" and me at 6 ft.  Logically I realize this bike would fit my needs but then emotionally I got back to the Joe.

I am also looking at the Sam Hillborne seems like it might be a good compromise.  it takes fat wheels, good for light touring (probably heavy touring by my standards) and allows for a more relaxed fit.  I also think I would be losing long-term flexibility and I weigh 210 lbs, and might be better off with the more robust bike.  

Again I realize there is probably no wrong choice but would love to hear your thoughts.  I love reading the forum, I really appreciate the Rivendell philosophy and excited to take a big jump in.  

[Philip Kim]

if you carry a lot of weight and ride more bumpy roads i would go clem

if you carry a lot of weight and ride smooth single track, pavement, or dirt roads, i would go appaloosa

if you carry stuff on your commute that is able to fit in a basket, i would get the sam.

if you're going to ride upright then get a clem or appaloosa, if youre going drop bars then get the sam

I used to have a sam, but upright bars were cramped, my appaloosa should be coming in soon.

[Shoji Takahashi]

Hi Jonathan,

Why isn't the Riv Romulus your first choice for commuting?

What do you like/dislike about the Romulus? 

I think answers to the above might inform your decision.

Good luck!

shoji

On Thursday, March 23, 2017 at 11:35:57 AM UTC-4, Jonathan Donehower wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

Short legs/long torso is definitely something to consider, especially if you're using pullback bars. My PBH is 79-ish, which I thought would put me on a 45 Clem. The reach was too close, so I sold it and bought a 51 Appaloosa. Better, and suspect I could even ride a 55 Appa if I didn't care about standover.

If you're at the outer edge of sizing on a 52 Clem and the Appa has even one more centimeter of virtual toptube, get the Appa. Also, it's a little lighter and fully lugged. A gorgeous bike.

[Ed Carolipio]

Agree on this list. I own an Appa and I'd recommend that over the Clem if that doesn't break your budget and you don't see singletrack in your future. I don't think it's overkill for what you want to do, and covers such a broad range of riding that it can adapt well to what you've listed.

--Ed

[Ray Varella]

Given that you already have a Romulus, the Sam will be closer to that than the other two.
There is another option that would allow both you and your wife to use the same bike, get on the list for one of the Roscoe Mtn Mixte.
As of yesterday, they had five people committed and wanted eight to make the next run.

Given the choice of the three bikes you are considering, the Appaloosa is about as versatile of a bike as you could ask for.

I've never had a bike that I thought would fit too large of a tire but I've had plenty that I wished would fit something larger.

Ray
Vallejo CA

[lconley]

My commuter (15 miles one way) is a black Clementine (now called Clem L) with a front rack & basket, fenders and front dynohub, 1x9 gearing, 650B x 41 Fatty Rumpkins, Nitto Jitensha flat bars at the moment. In my way of thinking the step-through frame is the only way to go for commuting. Easy to dismount after an emergency stop. My Clementine looks a lot like a Dutch omafiets for a good reason. I am 6' with 83 PBH (short legs) and ride a size 52, but remember that a step through frame allows you to ride a larger frame if you really want to get the handlebars up.

Laing 

[Jonathan Donehower]

I love the Romulus but would like an option for fatter tires and a more upright position. I can only fit 28 marathons with fenders. I really like the Soma handlebars and think it would be great to have a more relaxed bike that could trails and handle the bumps on the commute. My first bike I bought was a racing bike and I ran 23 mm tires. I keep going wider with my tire choices and more relaxed with the riding position.

[Jonathan Donehower]

I think I am picking up a little bit a consensus.

The Appaloosa would be the first choice. I could dial in the fit better and great overall bike if in my budget.

The Clem is a great second choice and depending on budget might be moly first choice. Also with a rivendell it seems like they are easy to sell and upgrade in the future. I do love the silver Joe.

The Hillborne is a great bike with some overlap with the Romulus and also better with drop bars. I could probably dial in the fit better with the Joe.

[drew]

i would probably eliminate clem from the running, and then i would use choice of bar/position as deciding factor between sam and joe. i think either could do what you want it to do. neither one is too lightweight for what you describe.  both are super versatile. 

and you probably do need 45mm tires, you just dont know it yet.  

[Bill Lindsay]

Since you are getting a very good consensus opinion on the Appaloosa, let me throw a curveball. 

Get rid of the Romulus and buy a Sam, set up with drop handlebars but higher than the Rom.  The Rom is a classic 'not-dumb' road bike, but it's a road bike.  Move it on to somebody who's going to use it as a stripped down road bike.  28s plus fenders is a great set up for a stripped down road bike.  Run your Sam with Barlow Pass 38s and fender, it will still be a screaming fast road bike.  Run the Sam with stout flat proof tires, and it will be a slower bike, but it will be an enormously reliable commuter.  Set it up with 43mm knobbies or load it down for S24Os.  It'll do it all.  

BL in EC

[Ian A]

There's been a number of people on list who have converted their Rambouillets to 650b with a 42mm tire. That could be an option for your Romulus with long reach brakes. In terms of upright riding, i like drop bars (Noodles) at around saddle height - I much higher to rob me of climbing ability, so depending on your commute and riding style, just a tweak of position on the Rom is all you need. These are no reasons at all not to buy a new bike though.

IanA.

[Patrick Moore]

I briefly owned a Sam, circa 2013-14. I believe that Riv has made minor changes to them since my model (Waterford, IIRC -- green, 56 X 59, and with wonderful IRD cantilevers) but unless they've changed the tubing hugely (or, "bigly"), the Sam would make a wonderful load carrying bike, at least for loads of up to 40 lb or so. I've not done any loaded touring, but I have quite a bit of experience carrying moderately heavy rear loads (45 lb is the heaviest I've measured) and the Sam did wonderfully with these. In fact, I had local builder Dave Porter add front lowrider braze ons to mine. (I sold it because it was too betwixt and between: too stout for a road bike, at least my kind of road bike, while in the other direction it didn't take tires wide enough for my taste, and situation, in dirt surface riding. Also, I found the tt too long.)

Point: don't dismiss the Sam if you want a bike suitable for loaded touring.

On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 12:57 PM, drew <drewbe...@gmail.com> wrote:

i would probably eliminate clem from the running, and then i would use choice of bar/position as deciding factor between sam and joe. i think either could do what you want it to do. neither one is too lightweight for what you describe.  both are super versatile. 

and you probably do need 45mm tires, you just dont know it yet.  

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[WETH]

If you go the 650b conversion, I converted my Romulus to 650bx 38 with long reach brakes. I fit fenders too. It rides nicely. https://www.flickr.com/gp/86975051@N08/d2QRC7

Safe cycling,
Ps: you didn't mention the Cheviot as a model you are considering, but I like mine and think it would fit your needs too.

[James Warren]

Since you have Romulus already (a great one!) I say go to the other end of the spectrum and get the widest clearance you can - that's Clem! Huge tires fit on that baby.

-Jim

Sent from my iPhone

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[Ian A]

If those photos don't convince a person who wants an upright commuter, also good for light touring that a 650b Romulus could work, I don't think anything good. Truly wonderful looking bicycle you have created there WETH.

IanA

[Will]

I have an Atlantis. So that's my backstory.

I'd get 650B wheels for the Rom. If you could run 38s with fenders, you'd be in pretty good shape for commutes.

[Sky Coulter]

Ya, Erl's conversion is pretty sweet; it's what motivated my temporary conversion.  I had 42mm hetres on my sidepull romulus when I converted it and still had good space for fenders.  Converting dropped the bb about 5mm which i (over) compensated with by a 10mm reduction in crank length. Works great. I just switched back because it was redundant with my saluki.

Sky in new west 

[twin]

Bill you just made my mind up for a Sam after thinking I wanted a Rosco. Thanks
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[Jonathan Donehower]

Weth- That is a beautiful conversion. I really like the look and it is a beautiful bike. I never considered switching the wheels.  I haven't seen many Romulus bikes without the drop handlebars and that never crossed my mind.  I really enjoy the Romulus but liked the idea of having a bike with drop bars. I am leaning towards building up one of the frames with a more relaxed fit.  I really like the idea of the Appaloosa.  I think the problem is with need and want.  Converting the Romulus is probably the more practical option but there is an appeal to having a real solid Rivendell touring bike.  Thank you for all the comments.  I am really enjoying the discussions.

[Surlyprof]

As a Hillborne owner and commuter, I'll second Jim's thoughts. Since you already have the Romulus with narrowish tires for road riding, I'd go to the other end of the spectrum with an Appaloosa (follow your instincts) or the Clem with the fattest tires you can put on there with fenders (since you're commuting on it). I use my Sam for everything and love it but it is the only bike I have and it's a great all arounder. I really liked riding both the Appaloosa and the Clem. If I had a more dedicated road bike than the Hillborne, I'd want the Appaloosa for all other pursuits. What can I say, when buying a Riv, I want the lugs. If I were to buy the Clem over the Appaloosa it would be for the 650 wheels which always felt great to me a 5'10". That's what has me pondering the Roscoe mountain mixte these days...

John

[Jim Bronson]

The Appaloosa is a more pretty bike than Clem, but the complete 2016 Clem H bikes are selling for $200 off, that is, $1300 complete.  (fenders extra).  I could not argue with $1300 for a complete Rivendell.  I just got mine this week, a 65cm in Mustard.

I also 2nd the thoughts for keeping the Rom, just converting it to 650b, I converted one of my older Rivs to 650Bx38 with fenders and very happy with it, with LoupLoup Pass tires it rolls really well.

On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 12:27 AM, Surlyprof <jmcc...@gmail.com> wrote:

As a Hillborne owner and commuter, I'll second Jim's thoughts.  Since you already have the Romulus with narrowish tires for road riding, I'd go to the other end of the spectrum with an Appaloosa (follow your instincts) or the Clem with the fattest tires you can put on there with fenders (since you're commuting on it).  I use my Sam for everything and love it but it is the only bike I have and it's a great all arounder.  I really liked riding both the Appaloosa and the Clem.  If I had a more dedicated road bike than the Hillborne, I'd want the Appaloosa for all other pursuits.  What can I say, when buying a Riv, I want the lugs.  If I were to buy the Clem over the Appaloosa it would be for the 650 wheels which always felt great to me a 5'10".  That's what has me pondering the Roscoe mountain mixte these days...

John

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[Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow Haus Bicycles]

Don't forget to ring up the fine people at Riv world headquarters. They may have some insight on model-specific sizing that would help guide your decision...

You're PBH and height is kind of unique. Plus they're always a pleasure to chat with 😊

[Bob K.]

I'm the proud owner of a 2009 Sam, and I love it. Went out on a two-day trip last week with front panniers, basket, and bikepacking-style seat bag, and it did everything I asked of it and more, including some windy but not technical single track riding in the dark. I also love stripping it of racks and bags and going for a fast (for me, AKA slow) ride up and down the local rollers.

All of that said, if I were buying one Rivendell right now, even given how much I love my Sam, I'd buy an Appaloosa. The additional clearance provides a bit more versatility, and since you're looking for an upright build, the Joe would be perfect with the Choco Norm setup. (The Clem is clearly a good call for this very same reason.) If you're worried that you'll want to go drop bars later, though, go Sam.

Bob K. in Baltimore

[Jonathan Donehower]

I think the Sam is a great bike and probably would work for all of my needs. I like that the Joe does provide the option for wider tires though 40mm is probably as wide as I would need and that it represents an evolution of Grant's philosophy and of the Atlantis. I am in Portland and might build up the Joe frame from Rivelo.

If I did convert the Rom are there any tips? I assume I would need knew brakes, wheels of course,...

[Joe Bernard]

The Romulus might make a good 650B dropbar bike, but I don't see it working with upright bars. I owned a 55cm Rom which was borderline too big for me, but even then the toptube-length-intended-for-drops would, I think, have created a crowded cockpit with an Albatross bar. I think the Appaloosa - which is intended for reachback bars and touring loads - is the better plan here.

[Jonathan Donehower]

Joe- I agree at least for my situation. I don't really want to put money into the change as well as would rather apply it to building up a Joe. It also seems risk free because if I don't like the Joe I could always sell it.

[WETH]

Jonathan,
As far as a 650b conversion to the Romulus, just new brakes, wheels and tires. The only other thing is to watch pedal strike when cornering. I switched from 170mm crank arms to 165mm and have no issues.
In terms of a new bike, if I were in the market, I would buy the Joe!
Good luck,
Erl

[Les Lammers]

Take a road  trip to Riv and do some demo rides. It's not that far from Oregon. :-)

[Jonathan Donehower]

I am lucky to live near Rivelo in PDX but hope to make it to Walnut Creek one day.

[allenmichael]

Jonathan,

If you want to test ride a 56 Hillborne with Albatross bars, that is well-racked and shod with new Schwalbe Mondials, I have one downtown that you are welcome to ride.

I am also an 85 pbh, and it fits me nicely.

Michael Allen

[Jonathan Donehower]

Thanks Michael. I normally bike home on the waterfront and could meet up. Currently with the water levels I have to bike on the west side. Have you used it for touring? Why did you choose that model over others? I love the albatross bars I put on an old jamis steel cycle cross bike and wouldn't go back to drop bars.

[scott]

I have toured a bunch on my Sam. I'm a heavy rider and had no trouble. I have a Clem and like it a lot, but it is not quick or as versatile as the Sam...to me. My lovely wife rides a Joe and it is great. She is not as strong of a rider as I am and when I ride the Clem she is much faster than I am. The clem doesn't beg to be ridden hard, but rather to be enjoyed. If I could only keep one bike, it would be ole Sammy. I have an 86 pbh and the 52 Clem fits great.

[Jonathan Donehower]

I just got my wife a clementine from someone in Portland. She is pregnant so can't ride it yet but it is a much better looking bike in person then I think some of the pictures showed.i might be more excited then she is. I spend my time shopping for my own bike and only end up buying her one. I think it will be a versatile bike for her and .

The Sam and Joe both seem like great bikes. If I buy new bike I would probably go with a Joe frame from Rivelo or look for a used Sam on the forum.

[Timothy Orr]

Jonathan, was it the 45cm Clementine on Craigslist? What a deal! If so, I almost bought it for my wife too! Although, it's probably best that I didn't get it for my bank account.

Cheers,
Tim