Re: A. Homer Hilsen geometry chart?
JoelMatthews
http://www.cyclofiend.com/rbw/hilsen.html
On Aug 15, 10:34 pm, happyriding <happyrid...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Can anyone post or provide a link to a the geometry chart for an A.
> Homer Hilsen?
CycloFiend
>
> I find it strange that the A. Homer Hilsen has its own website, but
> Rivendell doesn't bother putting up the geometry chart.
I think that was to honor A. Homer Hilsen's belief in the oral tradition.
-- J
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Bruce
CycloFiend <cyclo...@earthlink.net> wrote:
on 8/15/07 11:18 PM, happyriding at happy...@yahoo.com wrote:
I think that was to honor A. Homer Hilsen's belief in the oral tradition.
-- J
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Mike
behind the long TT on the Hilsen is that if people are riding with
their bars at about saddle height then it's not as much of an issue.
As the bars go up your reach increases. There's a chart on the Riv
website that explains this. Still, looking at the chart the TTs do
seem long. I ride a 62cm Rambouillet with a 59cm TT and that seems
about right. Based on my PBH (90cm) I'd ride a 63cm Hilsen which has a
60.5 TT. I think if I were to purchase a Hisen I'd just go for it and
get a 63 and feel confident that the sizing would workout. I have a
60cm Surly CC with a 60cm TT and it's good. If I could get the bars up
a tad higher it would be perfect. That wouldn't be a problem with the
Hilsen.
mike
James Warren
The top tube slopes up 1.5 degrees.
>
>Oh, wow. Much longer top tubes. What's the thinking behind that?
>Isn't that more of a race bike geometry? Is the top tube sloped?
>There's nothing about that in the geometry chart.
>
JoelMatthews
just right with the stem and seat post less than half up.
Responding to your earlier post, it must be too strange that the
geometry is not on the Hilsen site. There are a bunch of people
waiting for delivery at present. Riv is selling more than they can
make.
On Aug 17, 12:47 am, happyriding <happyrid...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Aug 16, 8:25 am, Mike <mjawn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The TT does seem long on the Hilsens. I imagine that the thinking
> > behind the long TT on the Hilsen is that if people are riding with
> > their bars at about saddle height then it's not as much of an issue.
> > As the bars go up your reach increases.
>
> Or another way of saying it: as the bars go up, the effective top tube
> gets shorter--because the bars move rearward as well as upward.
>
> Since some people may require a longer top tube to get a good fit, I
> guess having a model that provides longer top tubes will increase
> Rivendell's customer base. As for me, I would have to buy a much
> smaller frame and raise the stem a lot, which for me is not that
> aesthetically appealing.
>
> On Aug 16, 8:27 am, James Warren <jimcwar...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > The top tube slopes up 1.5 degrees.
>
> Thanks.
MichaelH
which GP designed a few years ago, so this HH thing is hardly a
radical departure for him. He has added a half of degree to the HT
and some rake to the fork, but the TT, CS, BB drop, and Seat T angles
are identical. What suprises me most about the HH is the price
premium over the Heron. The tubing seems to be the same dimensions
and quality, the're both silver brazed in the same factory. The HH
overs a 2 color paint job, and mabe a better one (i don't know). I
love the way my Ramb. rides and would love to have a bike that rode
like it on 35-38 tires, and I like doing business w Riv, but i can't
my my mind around the price premium.
Michael
> > Thanks.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
JoelMatthews
even below what you would pay for the Wayfarer.
The Wayfarer lists at $1300.00, the Hilsen is $1500.00. Riv gave me a
$100.00 discount on my frame, a years' membership in Riv with the
discount on parts that are already pretty competitively priced, and
they assembled and shipped a complete bike for $360.00.
There are only two shops in Chicago that sell Herons. Both are good
shops, but both would charge slightly more to build the Heron than Riv
charged to build and ship it. I would have to price the parts, but
based on my experience, the LBS' charge slightly more for the parts
than Riv. Add Illinois sales tax at 8%, the nicer paint and lovely
curved fork and I feel I got the better deal with the Hilsen.
Maybe if I had felt like driving down to Tullio's in LaSalle I could
have beat Riv by about $150.00. But a day's worth of my time has to
count for something.
Bruce
This reaction is typical in America today. It is more important to get a good "deal" than it is to get a good "product." Without disparaging the Heron, I think the riv is a nicer bike. I expect both of mine to work right, every time, and they do with only normal user maint. The Rambouillet was a great product and a great deal as a package, although the majority of them were sold as frames only. The componentry in a bike can radically affect the price, as well as the performance of course. The Riv road frames all seem to run around 1400 and built up bikes are now about 2800. You get a lot of bike for that, compared to an off the rack Trek/Cannondale/etc. (not taking potshots at mass market bike producers either) If you like the Heron better, buy it. If you like the Riv better, buy it. The money is close enough that it should not matter. If you're like many of the rest of us, you'll be continually tinkering with it anyway.
Later today, I need to go out and change the stem and bar wrap on the Saluki. And mount that decaleur too.....
Bruce
On Aug 18, 3:18 pm, MichaelH wrote:
> I love the way my Ramb. rides and would love to have a bike that rode
> like it on 35-38 tires, and I like doing business w Riv, but i can't
> my my mind around the price premium.
>
> Michael
>
>
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MichaelH
The Riv website lists the Waterloo made (read MUSA) Hilson frame as
$2000. This is a frame made in the same factory, with the same
tubing, same people, same methods, and the same geometry as the
Heron. Paint, brake mts, head badge, and some other incidentals are
different. If the difference were $150, I wouldn't have bothered
commenting on it. But $700 represents a premium of over 50%.
I like my Rivendell bike; I like doing business with them and i like
GP. But i don't get why the premium should be so high. It's not
about me; it's about economics.
Michael
> ---------------------------------
MichaelH
Go to the Riv website, and open the bikes/ Hilsen window. Scroll down
to Price and how to get one:
Here:
http://www.rivbike.com/bikes/a_homer_hilsen
It says:
"How to get one, price, delivery, and so on
Frame and fork when you buy them alone, no parts: $1500 if it's made
in Japan; $2000 if it's made in the U.S. With all due respect to
everybody in the world, there is not a quality difference. The US-
built ones cost us more, so they cost you more. If you can't accept
that a $1500 frame can be as good as a $2000 frame, then get the $2000
frame. We have extensive experience with both shops and are in a
better position than anybody else is to say they're both super frames,
and there's no difference worth hand-wringing over."
Now, Maybe the good folks in Wisconsin really don't want to make the
Hilsen but are doing GP a favor - at a price that will discourage a
lot of favors being asked for. I don't know. But Grant seems to be
implying that $1500 is a fair value, and $2000 is a romance. Probably
only Richard Schwinn can tell us why the $700 price differential for
the Hilsen over the Heron. Grant has argued in the past, and i agree
with him, that the MUSA label is worth a premium because of the social
values associated with it. Just not $500.
Peace, Shalom, Salaam,
Michael
On Aug 19, 4:01 pm, happyriding <happyrid...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > If you go towww.http://www.rivbike.comandyou click on:
>
> > Bike Models>A. Homer Hilsen
>
> > you will get taken to this page:
>
> > www.http://www.rivbike.com/bikes/a_homer_hilsen
>
> > which says:
>
> > Frame, fork, headset: $1500.
>
> > At A. Homer Hilsen's own website, I can find nothing about prices or
> > the geometry.
>
> Sorry, I made a mistake when copying the links:
>
> If you go to:
>
> http://www.rivbike.com
>
> and you click on Bike Models>A. Homer Hilsen, you will get taken to
> this page:
>
> http://www.rivbike.com/bikes/a_homer_hilsen
>
> which says:
>
> Frame, fork, headset: $1500.
>
> At AHH's own website, I can find nothing about prices or the geometry
JoelMatthews
I did not realize how much the price went up on the Waterloo built
Hilsens. Mine is a Waterloo from the first batch and cost only $1500
list, $1400 with the discount Riv gave me.
If I were buying now, the $2000 price would not send me to a Heron
(which I believe is a rather nice bike), but more likely to the Velo-
Orange Randonneur. The VO is $1650 fork and frame. But builder
Johnny Coast does the kind of work with the lugs that you can only
find from a small or one person shop. Northing extravagant, just
beautifully filed and detailed.
VO only gives you a single color, however. So Riv has them there. If
you want the Paul braze on racer brakes (and who wouldn't?) VO will
sell them to you at cost. VO will also build the bike for you with
their lovely components.
Finally, wonder if it is Waterloo trying to discourage GP, or GP
preferring working with Japan?
CycloFiend
> The HH published geometries are almost identical to the Heron Wafarer,
> which GP designed a few years ago, so this HH thing is hardly a
> radical departure for him. He has added a half of degree to the HT
> and some rake to the fork, but the TT, CS, BB drop, and Seat T angles
> are identical. What suprises me most about the HH is the price
> premium over the Heron. The tubing seems to be the same dimensions
> and quality, the're both silver brazed in the same factory. The HH
> overs a 2 color paint job, and mabe a better one (i don't know). I
> love the way my Ramb. rides and would love to have a bike that rode
> like it on 35-38 tires, and I like doing business w Riv, but i can't
> my my mind around the price premium.
Well, since you are the one signing the check, that's the decision you get
to make. ;^)
I can only identify the things that sold me on the bike (and I'm finally
getting antsy to see the danged thing...):
- The details of clearance. Frame angles and geometry alone do not a bike
make. If it's important enough to actually research it, I'd bet that folks
could probably find a few other bikes which have similar measurements. The
critical issue in my book was the admittedly subtle differences of
clearances for larger tires. Using the >73mm reach Silver brake seemed to
be a pretty nice hack, in my book.
- I really like the look of the assymetrical headtube lug (when looking head
on). First noticed these on the Legolas and just thought they looked great.
- My Hilsen will run Jack Browns @33 1/3 when it's feeling roadish - then
more knibblier tires (Michelin Cross2 @ 35 mm - 'cuz I've used them and
trust them) for mixed terrain, then some bigger knobblies for rockier
adventures, up to the point where they won't go through the frame (~45?) -
Golly gosh, I gots me a "29er"!.
- The braze-on selection, particularly the mid-seatstay and mid-fork set for
mounting Mark's rack. The QB has a similar set on the forks and I really
like using them - very clean and no "P" clamps necessary.
- The bike rode great. I haven't had a chance to ride the Wayfarer, but the
AHH felt nimble and pretty danged amazing on the (admittedly short) test
ride I took.
- I trust the design abilities of GP. The Quickbeam has been a phenomenally
comfortable bike - so much so that I start contemplating ridiculous
distances on it. After having the QB, I realized that I simply wasn't riding
my "road" bike. The Hilsen had enough similarities to the QB that it felt
familiar, and had a snappy feel to it as well.
Aside from that, the price is pretty danged close. I'm certainly not able to
throw the $200* difference out into the street, but I figure that the extra
takeout burrito or two per year it'll cost me, amortized over the likely
about of time (at a _minimum_) that I'm likely to own the frame, is well
worth it to me.
*I see in a later post you clarified this comparison to refer to the
Waterford-made AHH's. Yep, that is a bigger price difference, but from the
get-go, GP described the Wford step as temporary - those folks got a _great_
deal on the bike, you could say, but it strikes me that the "real" AHH model
- as in the one which most folks will be considering - is the Toyo-built
one.
Aren't times pretty good when we have all these options to consider?
-- Jim
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CycloFiend
>
>> If you go towww.http://www.rivbike.comand you click on:
>>
>> Bike Models>A. Homer Hilsen
>>
>> you will get taken to this page:
>>
>> www.http://www.rivbike.com/bikes/a_homer_hilsen
>>
>> which says:
>>
>> Frame, fork, headset: $1500.
>>
>> At A. Homer Hilsen's own website, I can find nothing about prices or
>> the geometry.
>
> Sorry, I made a mistake when copying the links:
>
> If you go to:
>
> http://www.rivbike.com
>
> and you click on Bike Models>A. Homer Hilsen, you will get taken to
> this page:
>
> http://www.rivbike.com/bikes/a_homer_hilsen
>
> which says:
>
> Frame, fork, headset: $1500.
>
> At AHH's own website, I can find nothing about prices or the geometry
>
Not there yet, but I posted it pretty early on, so I suspect it was
considered "accessible" until the pending website revamp.
http://www.cyclofiend.com/rbw/hilsen.html
-- Jim
--
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JoelMatthews
the Hilsen (and I may have read all there is) it appears the bike was
meant to be a Toyo from the start. For reasons touched on by GP and
others, timing was not right for Toyo, so Waterford stepped in. I
reckon Waterford has all they can handle, what with their own brand,
Heron, Milwaukee, Paramount and other classic restorations. Without
volume. production costs are going to get pretty high at a place like
Waterford.
As lucky as I feel to have gotten my W'ford Hilsen, I am quite sure
the Toyos will be the real deal as well.
On Aug 19, 9:11 pm, CycloFiend <cyclofi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Cyclofi...@earthlink.net
>
> Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries -http://www.cyclofiend.com