Coffee grinders -- I **know** that this is NOT off topic!

[Patrick Moore]

Newby questions. I buy beans in bulk, freeze, and grind at need. I prefer (convenience, results) a Melita filter, and thus grind very fine -- this seems (experience) to give best flavor.

Now: I use a blade grinder. After 20 seconds, the resulting very fine meal seems quite uniform (an I don't notice any degradation in flavor from heating -- the stuff doesn't get hot, just very mildly warm). BUT: grinding beans straight from the freezer leaves the meal hard to handle: it' like staticky fine long hair; it goes everywhere and makes a mess.

So my question comes down to this: I'm perfectly happy with the taste from a blade grinder and Melita, but I'd like a grinder that doesn't leave a mess when grinding frozen beans very fine.

Would a burr grinder help in this regard?

I see electric burr grinders for sub $50, and I see Hario crank burr grinders for the same price. Which are better, and why?

This place says no burr grinder under $100 is any good (I take it Harios are exceptions to this rule). Is this rule right?

Lastly: Open to general comments about storing, grinding, and brewing coffee, but I am happy with my routine except for the mess described.

Thanks.

Patrick Moore, drinking his coffee strong and black in Lenten ABQ, NM.

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Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique

[Patrick Moore]

https://prima-coffee.com/learn/article/grinder-basics/burr-grinder-basics/31830

On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 11:40 AM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:...

[Sean B.]

Conical burr grinders are your friend.

This is the one I use daily: https://www.amazon.com/Baratza-Encore-Conical-Coffee-Grinder/dp/B007F183LK/ref=zg_bs_14092821_4/140-2207164-7992160?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=A2DM02FNTSFEYG6CE5R9

Also, I would never suggest buying in bulk or freezing. Buy fresh in small batches and grind right before brewing.

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Sean. That looks inviting, but it's quite a bit larger than I need (or that would be easy to store in my small coffee/tea cabinet). Is there a conical burr grinder that is smaller and suitable for no more than 3 cups of coffee, which I gather means about 1-2 oz of grounds?

Does anyone have experience with the hand-cranked Hario grinders? How long does it take, and can you get the grounds Turkish fine?

A burr grinder would probably give me better results with my press, too ...

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[Sean B.]

I keep a hand crank on hand for emergencies. This is the one I use: https://www.amazon.com/JavaPresse-Grinder-Conical-Brushed-Stainless/dp/B013R3Q7B2/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_79_bs_t_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=8CRZM5VX6DXTT22K7ZB3

They're mostly ceramic, so not as sturdy as steel. It will take about 5 mins to grind the beans. I only use a Chemex or French Press so it's easier to achieve the grind needed. Turkish might not be great as even the entry level steel grinders have problems giving fine espresso/turkish grinds.

[Deacon Patrick]

We love our Lido 2. It is easily set to grind everything from a course grind to espresso and everything between. Engineered and built to last a lifetime. http://www.oehandgrinders.com/OE-LIDO-2-Manual-Coffee-Grinder_p_14.html

I can’t speak to how to store coffee as I roast our and we brew it within the week. So my advice is use fresh roasted coffee (buying it from a local roaster or self-roasting). There is an amazing difference between the fresheness and richness because the oils et al are still present. I highly recommend using fresh roasted beans for the best coffee.

We get our organic green beans from Dean’s Beans and are partial to Colombian and Guatamalan. https://deansbeans.com/our-products/roasted-coffees/green-unroasted-coffee-beans.html

With abandon,
Patrick

[John A. Bennett]

Don’t freeze your beans. Buy them regularly, and keep them in the cupboard in the roll top bag they came in.

[phil k]

Hi Patrick,

If you're going to grind a lot of beans, then an Encore Baratza is your best bet. You can buy refurbished ones from their website just under $100.

I highly recommend staying away from any ceramic burr grinders like the Hario or Porlex. I've had both and they don't compare to more high end manual grinders. 

I have a Kinu M47. There is no equal manual hand-held grinder I've tried. It outclasses my Lido 3 and Aergrind. Easier grind adjustment, feels more sturdy, easy to take apart and clean, awesome grind catch cup. It's my only used grinder for the past few months. I make espresso, aeropress, to pourover, and it handles well if not better than my electric Encore Sette (which I've had to get parts replaced a couple of times). It's got a 47mm burr which is bigger than Lidos, Commandantes, etc. I can grind 15g of beans in probably 10-15 secs depending on the roast. It took about 20 secs to grind the same amount on my Capresso electric grinder. Also took around 30-35secs on my Hario and Porlex. 

Kinu sells a cheaper and smaller Kinu M47 Traveler. It's a little over $100 cheaper than its bigger brother, but keeps the same burr size at 47mm. 

The Aergrind is a good manual grinder that is portable. Smaller burrs than the Kinu, but it's also cheaper. I got mine for 80 pounds direct from Knock's website. The quality is not as high as the Kinu, but it's cheaper. I prefer it over my Lido because the grind adjustment is much easier.

Hope that helps

Phil

[phil k]

Also to answer your other topics of interest.

Storing:

I use amber mason jars. Nothing fancy really needed. Most coffee will last for quite some time. Like Patrick, I also roast small batches and consume them rather quickly between my wife and I

Brewing:

I really like the Hario V60. It gives a lot of control - small stream, slow pour will give a mild and rich cup, slight fast pour will give a brighter and acidic cup. Also allows you to experiment if you want. I usually go about 1:16 coffee water ratio. Usually 12g per 200g of water in. I've been digging the 4:6 method a lot lately. You can google the recipe.

Kalita Waves are also nice too. Very forgiving. I really like using it, if I don't have the time to pay attention to my pourover.

I would also suggest for pourovers to go medium to medium coarse grinds.

-Phil

[Justin, Oakland]

I use a Vario, my wife uses a melita filter system for convenience. I had a Kalita and enjoyed it but the availability of filters at the time (8-10 years ago) was rough.

Baratza grinders are serviceable and I recently replaced an adjustment ring on mine that was broke. I’ve had the motor rebuilt before when it was slipping.

The Wacoco handpresso makes incredibly decent espresso for what it is.

I’m going to try the Kinu hand grinders.

-J

[David Bivins]

I have the Bodum burr grinder because I found it on sale. It's not the
best, but it works. A couple drops of water on the beans before
grinding will cut the static. I have a cheap ceramic burr hand grinder
for when I travel.
Agreed with all here - buy fresh roasted (or roast yourself) and keep
it in its bag. Brew immediately after grinding. Don't freeze - there
is no benefit at all.
I cold brew my coffee using a large mason jar and an inexpensive metal
mesh filter. When I want to brew hot, which is rare these days, I use
an Aeropress.
My wife drinks tea, and one of those electric kettles has been
wonderful - she can get her precise temp for brewing green tea, and I
can get mine for the Aeropress.

[sameness]

You can buy certified refurbished grinders direct from Baratza. 

I own a B-stock Virtuoso which sees about two pounds of coffee go through it every week. I make coffee about three different ways depending on my mood, and once you dial in the appropriate grinds in it's perfect.

It's been serviced by Baratza once in five years (I mucked up a seal while giving it a long-overdue cleaning), which set me back $64.50 including return shipping. With care it will outgrind us all.

Jeff Hagedorn

Los Angeles, CA USA

[Justin, Oakland]

To cut the static you just knock the receiving cup a few times. Cabinet, counter or knuckle works

[Deacon Patrick]

In case anyone is daft enough to want to try roasting your own, I recommend the free way to test if you want to do it more than five times (well, free except for buying green beans): a cast iron skillet or dutch oven (high walls make for a bit more even roasting) on medium flame/heat, stir constantly, remove some point after first crack stops and the beans burn. Easy to scorch the beans this way though, so once you know you want to roast regularly...

We love roasting in our Zen Roast. https://www.zenroast.co. I can roast 3/4 cup (I know, I’m supposed to weigh the beans. Bah.) green beans to a dark medium roast very evenly on medium flame in 12-15 minutes, which yields one cup roasted coffee. I age it 24 hours to 7 days, with the sweet spot we prefer at around 3 days, but that’s a pretty subtle difference when using great beans and roaster.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Bill Lindsay]

+1

Actually +2

This is a case of the solution to your problem is to stop causing the problem in the first place. People who know how to store coffee recommend against freezing

http://www.ncausa.org/about-coffee/how-to-store-coffee

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, all -- some very interesting information to mull over with my next cup of coffee. 

I'll first try very slightly dampening the frozen beans before I pulverize with my blade grinder, but I am very tempted to try a Hario...

On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 11:40 AM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Deacon Patrick]

+1, with the qualification that if you want to test if hand grinding is something you prefer, $25 entry fee is ten times less than the Lido 2. However, the grind and the grinding experience of the Lido is Rivendellian while the Hario or Porlex are Public or similar. Why grind instead of blade? Consistancy brews better, so all your gounds osmosize equally, neither under or over brewing. This gives easily noticable improvement to the flavor.

Phil said: “I highly recommend staying away from any ceramic burr grinders like the Hario or Porlex. I've had both and they don't compare to more high end manual grinders.”

With abandon,
Patrick

[Ron Mc]

I've been through $50 Cuisinart burr grinders every 3 years for the past 9.  

This time I upgraded to a Capresso 565, which grinds Slow.  

The product comes in perfect uniform grains, no matter how tiny, and zero dust.  

Even grind size eliminates bitterness, and best part is the uniform coarser grind I can get is perfect for coffee-press brew.  

[Todd Ferguson]

Deacon- so cool to happen across the orphan espresso / Rivendell overlap here. I have been using an orphan espresso first generation Pharos grinder for over 10 years. That coupled with a mid 1980s elektra micro casa e Leva manual espresso machine, bought from and restored by orphan, has been making a great cup for years.

Glad you like the like the lido and working the Pharos has been a great daily pleasure.

--Todd

[Deacon Patrick]

Aye, Todd. Solid tools are always a pleasure, and always less expensive in the long run. Good to hear your Pharos is going strong after a decade. I think we’re three years into our Lido 2? However long they’ve been out is how long we’ve had ours. Grinds daily for a family of 6 and works like new.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

I use a Hario hand crank burr grinder with chemex for pour over... well, I ‘did’ use the hand crank for a couple years until our son was born and started losing that extra time in the mornings and have since been cheating with pre-ground beans for the most part. I enjoyed the process and routine and would grind daily but it does take a few minutes of steady cranking. Never tried a super fine ground and adjusted it somewhere in the middle. Over time the locknut begins to loosen regularly on the crank and I was planning to use a nylock replacement nut but haven’t gotten around to it, so on the occasion we go whole bean I just need to tighten the crank a few times each session. It was also fun to have our son help fill and grind the beans some mornings but he prefers to open and dump the beans on the floor or crank in reverse, haha, so I’d have to give him a decoy bowl of beans to play with to actually finish the job. The size is great for one small pot each morning (larger/rounder hario not the small slim one, which I hadn’t tried.) My wife and each just have one mug each in the morning.

[David Bivins]

Ah - the slow grind eliminates the static build-up! That's my problem
I'll bet - too fast. I will bookmark this concept.

> --

[Patrick Moore]

More data to process! (Weird machine metaphor, that!) I've been drinking coffee since circa 1968*, but apparently there is a rabbit hole analogous to that which appears to someone who has for years ridden his Electra Townie when faced with the esoterica of planing, long chainstays, and super supple tires. Not only a rabbit hole, apparently, but a money pit too. Heck, I've been buying Costco's 3 lb bag of San Francisco French Roast for $14.99 for years.

But thanks. It makes interesting reading. I may even act on some of it!

* This may explain my serious naïveté about coffee. 50 years ago we lived outside of Nairobi in an area where everything was surrounded by I-kid-you-not square miles of coffee plantations, unless it was virgin forest. We'd sit down each morning to a full service family breakfast and drink --- Taster's Choice freeze dried and Coffee Mate imported from the US of A. And this in an area where not only the coffee but the dairy was grade A+.

On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 11:40 AM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

[phil k]

Solid suggestion Patrick. I have a Zen Roast myself. I couple mine with a temperature thermometer gun just to try to achieve as much consistency as possible.

[Deacon Patrick]

Interesting. How do you shake the roaster and hold the thermometer secure? I’ve been surprised how consistant I get it just by sight (color, dull/velvety/oily), sound (crack), smell, smoke volume, even feel of the shake. Grin. Roasting by feel, kinda like riding by feel (instead of using a computer to track mileage, speed, et al). This changes subtly as humidity, temperature, and different batches of beans change, so there is a bit of a range that adds adventure. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Ray Varella]

I use a vintage hand crank Zassenhaus.
I’ve used it daily for close to 15 years and it was probably 30 years old when I bought it.

For comparison I also have an Olympia burr grinder which is a scaled down commercial quality grinder.

I can give a dozen reasons to choose a manual grinder.

If you drink a lot of espresso it might be worth having a nice electric grinder and if you have issues using both hands to stabilize and grind with a manual grinder, you may also benefit from an electric grinder.

I’ll avoid the whole freezing beans issue.
I own a commercial coffee roaster and I’m waaaayyy into the “only drink freshly roasted coffee”

Ray

[Patrick Moore]

I knock my blade grinder all over the place and nope, I get fine coffee grit over a 2 sq ft area; that's my problem. I'm intrigued by the "couple of drops of water" trick and will try that; I guess you have to cut the amount of water fine so that you don't end up with mud?

I understand the advice to buy small quantities of good quality beans from purveyors who sell them fresh, and use them up quickly, but one advantage of being in practice if not in principle car free (apart from rare out of town trips I drive perhaps 800 miles per year, now that my daughter can drive herself -- I just live a dull life) is that I tend to stock up on essentials at Costco once very 6 or 8 weeks, which means bulk, like the 3 lb bag of San Francisco French Roast beans that I mentioned; and these obviously must be frozen -- right?

Also, I very often drink tea (strong breakfast teas), which means that I generally drink coffee at the equivalent of every other day, with a daily ratio usually of 2 ~18 oz cups -- meaning that 3 lb bags last even longer. 

At any rate, now I understand more clearly the variables and the options and the benefits and deficits, so thanks again to all. Will continue to ponder and, eventually, make a decision.

On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 3:52 PM Justin, Oakland <justin...@gmail.com> wrote:

To cut the static you just knock the receiving cup a few times. Cabinet, counter or knuckle works

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[Deacon Patrick]

Patrick,

With two purchases of heirloom quality goods, you can buy beans up to six months (though 2 is preferable) at a time at the same price for coffee beans as you pay now per pound (roughly $5-6 a pound before shipping), and have the best, smoothest, most remarkable coffee in the world (tied with the rest of us who do this. Grin.). The difference will likely astonish you. If you are asking questions about freezing or not freezing, you may as well experience the full answer, so at the very least you know what you are missing. Grin. Next time we are able to meet and ride, I’ll give you a taster. Grin.

1. Zen Roaster. I didn’t wax on about this roaster much above, but it is made by a multiple generational ceramic craft family in Japan and it shows. It is stunning ceramic. We bought a second one to have as a spare should something happen to the first, but it just shrugs off bumps and dings with our cast iron stove grill and other pots. Haven’t dropped it on the floor though, but wouldn’t be surprised if it shrugged that off too. It is the very definition of beausage, becoming a lustrious black inside from the bean roasting, and like a speckled egg on the outside from the chafe bits occationally flairing up on it. You’d likely spend 20 minutes total roasting once to twice a week to have fresh roasted beans daily. (best used between 4 hours and two weeks, though the sweet spot most people love is somewhere in the first week).

2. Quality hand grinder. There is beauty in a well crafted human powered tool and in using it. It is a richer, fuller experience to feel the texture of the beans grind. Did you know you can feel the roast level by the bean grind?

With abandon,
Patrick

[phil k]

The temperature gun has a laser, and it reads the temperature within a second. I use it to know when I'm about to hit the first crack, so I can crank up the heat and back off once I get a rolling crack. I try to roast light

[trueg...@att.net]

About a year back I saw a guy roast green coffee beans in an air pop corn popper.

 

 

Any of you try using that method for roasting?

 

Paul in Dallas

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[David Bivins]

I have many friends who roast their beans in a hot air popper. They're easy to find at thrift stores, too!

[Adam Leibow]

i didnt read everyones replies so apologies if this has already been said: BODUM BISTRO - i recommended our office get this when they told me their price range, and it has been the office workhorse grinder for over a year with nothing to complain about really. it's only $60 i think. my gf and i have the baratza virtuoso at home & really like it but it's far more expensive. 

On Thursday, March 14, 2019 at 10:40:33 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

Newby questions. I buy beans in bulk, freeze, and grind at need. I prefer (convenience, results) a Melita filter, and thus grind very fine -- this seems (experience) to give best flavor.

Now: I use a blade grinder. After 20 seconds, the resulting very fine meal seems quite uniform (an I don't notice any degradation in flavor from heating -- the stuff doesn't get hot, just very mildly warm). BUT: grinding beans straight from the freezer leaves the meal hard to handle: it' like staticky fine long hair; it goes everywhere and makes a mess.

So my question comes down to this: I'm perfectly happy with the taste from a blade grinder and Melita, but I'd like a grinder that doesn't leave a mess when grinding frozen beans very fine.

Would a burr grinder help in this regard?

I see electric burr grinders for sub $50, and I see Hario crank burr grinders for the same price. Which are better, and why?

This place says no burr grinder under $100 is any good (I take it Harios are exceptions to this rule). Is this rule right?

Lastly: Open to general comments about storing, grinding, and brewing coffee, but I am happy with my routine except for the mess described.

Thanks.

Patrick Moore, drinking his coffee strong and black in Lenten ABQ, NM.

[Justin, Oakland]

I really want to try this and cannot rationalize it right now for the life of me.

Oh well. Trader Joe's now has an $8 bag of "single origin" beans out here in the bay area. A lighter one and a medium one. That's nearly half the price of my usual Philz/Counter Culture/Red Bay Coffee purchase so...

[Jim M.]

On Friday, March 15, 2019 at 11:19:55 AM UTC-7, Justin, Oakland wrote:

Oh well. Trader Joe's now has an $8 bag of "single origin" beans out here in the bay area. A lighter one and a medium one. That's nearly half the price of my usual Philz/Counter Culture/Red Bay Coffee purchase so...

Heck, TJ has a 100% Arabica "dark roast" for about $6 that is a bit one dimensional, but as long as that dimension is dark, it's fine by me. 

As to freezing, there has been at least one study found that freezing roasted beans before grinding produced more even particles and better extraction: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/06/160614100258.htm

happy caffeinated trails!

jim m

wc ca

[phil k]

Trader Joes had a really good Ethiopian Honey Process coffee that was like $6 a can. I should've bought 10 of those. I haven't seen them in any around me. Their winter blend is also really good for the price.

Ceremony Coffee has to be one of my favorites.

Onyx is also good but pricier, however, they commit to paying much more above market price to ensure their farms keep operating.

[Patrick Moore]

This or a related study was what made me keep my beans in the freezer, and I think I've noticed a change for the better in flavor. What appears to happen if you freeze them is that, at least using a blade grinder (whacker), the particles are more uniform in size -- noticed this with coarse grind for the press.

Aside: Tried a few drops of H2O in this morning's 2-scoops of (frozen) beans, and yes, it kept the dust and static down. Had to scoop last bits off of wall of grinder cup, but far less mess than dust flying all over.

Y'all's word for the day: Pulverulent, adj, as in "effing pulverulent mess, dammit!"

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[Chris L]

Roasting your own beans in a popcorn popper is very easy, although depending on the popper, you may have to improvise to keep beans from shooting out the top.   It is a very fine line between "roasted" and "charred" in a popper so you have to be very diligent.  

Trader Joe's has specialty, small batch coffees (I believe the only ones where beans are in a bag, rather than a can) where they buy an entire crop and sell it until supplies run out, which seems to be just a few weeks.  I always buy them when I see a new one and they have ranged from good to excellent.   Much better than their regular coffee bean selection. 

[Chris L]

I just checked and here is what TJ's is offering right now:

https://www.traderjoes.com/fearless-flyer/article/4762

[Patrick Moore]

Related all of this:

1. Is it bad to buy 3 months worth of roasted beans and store them in your fridge? If so, why? -- that is, what goes wrong?

2. Is the problem the 3 months or the freezer?

3. Is there a way to store 3 months of roasted whole beans so that they don't degrade?

4. If not, how long should roasted and package beans be kept after buying, before you use them, if you want a decent cup?

5. If you can roast beans in an air popcorn popper, can you roast them in a Whirlypop? https://www.whirleypopshop.com/stovetop-poppers.html  (Serious here.)

6. If so, what are the advantages from buying green and roasting in Whirlypop, compared to buying them roasted? -- obviously, this relates largely to flavor; but if there are financial ones, speak about them.

7. If one buys green beans, how best to store them, and for how long, and how best to store -- freezer? Fridge? St Steel container in dark pantry with tight lid?

8. Add other apothegms as appropriate.

[David Bivins]

Regarding buying so much coffee that have to store some for three months:
Here in NYC, many of us know that there are few stellar pizzas in the
city. Probably more than most of us know, but you find out via
friends, Internet, whatever, and they're AMAZING. But any slice of NYC
pizza (barring the chain stores like Papa John's, etc.) is pretty
good. It hits the spot. It's not great, but it's a lot better than no
pizza at all. It was made fresh, the dough was made with Type 00
flour, etc.
With coffee, if you're a cup o' joe kind of person, using it for fuel
in the morning, just looking for that boost that tastes pretty good,
then you might not find much difference between Peet's and the stuff
that was just roasted a few days ago. It's like most NYC pizza. But
you might find that you bought some coffee that was just roasted, you
bring it home and grind a cup's worth right away, you brew it in a
reproducible way, and WOW that's AMAZING! Not just good, but great.
That's what happened to me. A workmate brought me a bag of beans she
had picked up from a roaster on her way to our office as a gift. I
made some as soon as I got home and never looked back.
I'm lucky enough in Brooklyn to be able to get, within a 10 minute
walk, Stumptown, Café Grumpy, and a few other freshly-roasted beans.
They're not all my cup of coffee, but when I find the ones I like, I
can always get them.

[Deacon Patrick]

My answers to Patrick of the Moore’s questions are inline below...

1. Is it bad to buy 3 months worth of roasted beans and store them in your fridge? If so, why? -- that is, what goes wrong?

“Bad” depends on if you care about what is lost by storage. My experience is that oils and a slurry of intangible things we’re just starting to understand that I lump together and call, perhaps inaccurately, flavinoids. These oils and flavinoids stimulate my brain in a very good and noticible and not jittery way. Not just the caffeine. All of it. Together. Beyond two week, and I notice a decline in this, which is also reflected in a loss of flavor (hense the term flavinoids, because the flavores of fresh good food have a lot of them and we taste the difference, whatever they all are). Chocolate, hot and curry spices, garlic, saturated fats, fish fats, tobacco ... I forget what else, are high in flavinoids.

2. Is the problem the 3 months or the freezer?

Time, definately. I suspect the freezer change, as with all foods, also harms oils and flavinoids, though as you point out it also hardens the bean, compensating somewhat for loss of flavor/flavinoids by a more consistant brew if pulverized instead of ground.

3. Is there a way to store 3 months of roasted whole beans so that they don't degrade?

Yes. In a time suspension device. Haven’t found a good one yet. If you do, let me know.

4. If not, how long should roasted and package beans be kept after buying, before you use them, if you want a decent cup?

2 weeks after roast date (which a good roaster will put on the bag). No roast date? Way more than two weeks passed before the coffee reached the store, let alone you, so no need to ask.

5. If you can roast beans in an air popcorn popper, can you roast them in a Whirlypop? https://www.whirleypopshop.com/stovetop-poppers.html (Serious here.)

Yes, and there are places that sell specific versions of this for that: Sweet Marias, but they seem to be out of most of their roasting supplies.

6. If so, what are the advantages from buying green and roasting in Whirlypop, compared to buying them roasted? -- obviously, this relates largely to flavor; but if there are financial ones, speak about them.

Green beans generally cost half the per pound price of roasted. But this is somewhat mitigated by the green beans having more moisture (lost in roasting), so total yield of a pound of green beans roasted is 3/4 pound, perhaps. We don’t weigh. Other advantages are the experience of roasting, learning and experimenting and learning what you like because you can try one bean type roasted differently, aged 1-14 days, the better flavor and flavinoids as I’ve already mentioned.

7. If one buys green beans, how best to store them, and for how long, and how best to store -- freezer? Fridge? St Steel container in dark pantry with tight lid?

We store them in the bags they come in from Dean’s beans (coated paper), in our pantry. Last for 6 months, with a mellowing of flavore that begins around two months. Protect from changes in moisture and exposure to light are the only requirements I’ve read for green beans.

8. Add other apothegms as appropriate.

Roast your own for the most afore your beans give up the flavinoid ghost! Grin.

[Chris L]

In my experience, there is no substitute for getting freshly roasted beans and drinking them within 2-3 weeks, at most.   I've stored beans in good quality canisters and they go stale just as quickly as beans stored in a typical bag.  i think once they are exposed to the atmosphere, the clock starts ticking.  I don't think there is a way around it. 

[peec...@yahoo.com]

I second the Zassenhaus recommendation.  It should last longer than you which is quite a concept.  Tim

[Rick Thompson]

I use a blade grinder same as you, 20 seconds is perfect fine grind. I have a manual burr grinder for backup and camping, but to get the same grind is a fair level of elbow grease.

Fresh Peet's beans every week, no freezing.

I used to use fairly expensive electric burr grinders (I remember one was a Cuisinart). IMO these are much harder to clean than the simple blade grinder. About every month I had to dis-assemble and clean out a sludge of coffee oils and powder from the burrs and all passages.

On Thursday, March 14, 2019 at 10:40:33 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

Newby questions. I buy beans in bulk, freeze, and grind at need. I prefer (convenience, results) a Melita filter, and thus grind very fine -- this seems (experience) to give best flavor.

Now: I use a blade grinder. After 20 seconds, the resulting very fine meal seems quite uniform (an I don't notice any degradation in flavor from heating -- the stuff doesn't get hot, just very mildly warm). BUT: grinding beans straight from the freezer leaves the meal hard to handle: it' like staticky fine long hair; it goes everywhere and makes a mess.

So my question comes down to this: I'm perfectly happy with the taste from a blade grinder and Melita, but I'd like a grinder that doesn't leave a mess when grinding frozen beans very fine.

Would a burr grinder help in this regard?

I see electric burr grinders for sub $50, and I see Hario crank burr grinders for the same price. Which are better, and why?

This place says no burr grinder under $100 is any good (I take it Harios are exceptions to this rule). Is this rule right?

Lastly: Open to general comments about storing, grinding, and brewing coffee, but I am happy with my routine except for the mess described.

Thanks.

Patrick Moore, drinking his coffee strong and black in Lenten ABQ, NM.

[Ron Mc]

Another nice thing about the Capresso burr grinder - cleaning is simple - I mostly use a drip machine with basket, and this the only fine-grind machine I've ever used that doesn't leave any residue in the bottom of my coffee mug.  

[islaysteve]

Greetings Patrick and everyone, I'm not as much of a coffee enthusiast as many here, but I'll offer my experiences and observations for what they're worth. 
Grinders:  I've been using a Krups $50-$60 burr grinder for many years.  Got the original one from Bloomingdales, that one was replaced under warranty several years into service and the current one is still going strong.  The upper burr is replaceable for a reasonable price.  I like it that I can start the grind, then leave it on the counter to change filters, pour water, etc.  Now I know it's not good for super fine grinding, for espresso.  That's fine with me.  Those grinders seem to cost many times as more.  When i thought mine was on the blink a while back (it wasn't), I found a similar one at Target for about $30.  Not sure what the differences were between my old one and this new generation.
Storing:  I usually buy 2 lb. bags of beans at Costco or Safeway.  I put about a pound's worth, blended, into a semi-airtight container on the counter and store the bags in the basement, rolled closed and rubber-banded (no freezing).  Seems to work fine and still make good coffee, Deacon's and others' comments on freshness duly noted.
Coffee making:  Water temp is important.  If this has already been brought up in the thread, I apologize.  I finally splurged and treated myself to a Technivorm drip coffee maker.  Had wanted one for years.  It brews to the proper temp, I believe around 205 degree F.  I also make pourovers for myself regularly, using a $3 Melitta cone holder.  (The Technivorm is fun to watch.)  Cheers and Happy St Patrick's Day to all, especially the Patricks!

 

[phil k]

Patrick the problem is that once beans are roasted they start off gassing. Carbon dioxide exits which is good, but oxygen is introduced.

It's not "bad", but your beans will be stale.

OTOH, green beans stay "good" for longer.

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Phil. To be clear: This "off gassing" continues for roasted beans even if sit on store shelf in air tight package and, after opening, are sealed up tight and left in freezer?

Noted reports from all about green beans and roasting. So, another question: How long can one store green beans before they lose flavor? And: how best to store green ones for longest life?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Researched home roasting with Whirlypop, which I own; problem: Smoke. Could do on grill outside. Smoke aside, doesn't look too hard to try.

Aside: Recall the homespun coffee processing in the fields around our house. The owner of the immediately surrounding plantation, Mr. Patel, lived across the street (main thoroughfare into town some 7 miles south, narrow, winding 2-lane, 60-70 mph, which I cycled on), and his property contained large concrete tanks for fermenting (?) and hulling beans (his well provided our water tanks with water). Kikuyu women were the pickers using multi-bushel, hand-woven baskets with head straps to carry probably 60-80 lb of beans from fields to tank. I didn't see the next steps in the process.

The "bibis" were big and husky and loud and boisterous and somewhat intimidating in large groups. You'd hear multitudes of invisible voices singing, chanting, cat-calling, and cackling across the acres.

Beans were picked when reddish. As with So Cal orange fields, sq miles of coffee would blossom all together at certain times of year. I also recall the small primitive tractor that sprayed the acres with pyrethrum -- driver in open with no skin or lung protection; sprayer would come within a few feet of our back hedges.

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[Alex from the North]

 

1. Is it bad to buy 3 months worth of roasted beans and store them in your fridge? If so, why? -- that is, what goes wrong?

As others have mentioned, beans begin off-gassing immediately, leading to staleness and an off taste. Please don't take offense at this as many people prefer french roasts, but there's an extent to which the carbon taste of the darker roast is offsetting the effect that I'm describing. The effect of storing beans for a long time is much more noticeable in more subtle, lighter roasts. This is why Starbucks and others have pushed dark roasts, because they can sit on the shelf for much longer. Typically these roasts also use lower quality beans.

 

2. Is the problem the 3 months or the freezer?

What the Deacon said above, it's both—but mostly the 3 months. Coffee keeps fine in dark cupboards, preferably in containers that allow off-gas to pass, so to speak. If the coffee isn't off-gassing, then it wasn't fresh in the first place.

3. Is there a way to store 3 months of roasted whole beans so that they don't degrade?

No. But honestly, some of the coffee you're buying wasn't fresh when you bought it.

4. If not, how long should roasted and package beans be kept after buying, before you use them, if you want a decent cup?

The rule of thumb I've often heard in the industry is 15 days

5. If you can roast beans in an air popcorn popper, can you roast them in a Whirlypop? https://www.whirleypopshop.com/stovetop-poppers.html  (Serious here.)

Back in the day, it was commonplace to buy green coffee beans and to roast them at home. I suspect that the whirleypop actually began its life as a coffee roaster. Go to E-bay and look up "antique coffee roaster" and you'll see what I mean.The devices are nearly identical.

If I were to buy coffee four times a year, home roasting would be the way to go for sure. But honestly, if you're finding what you're doing enjoyable, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Personally I've educated myself out of being able to enjoy coffee from Costco, and I often question whether it was worth the trouble. This actually came up for me last week. I'd owned a coffeehouse for 15 years and sold it in February. Last week I finally ran out of coffee and was faced with buying coffee as a civilian for the first time since about 2003. I bought some beans from Costco that were labeled light roast, but they were—to me anyway—unpalatably dark. So I got us a 'subscription' to coffee from my favorite regional coffee roaster.

 I'm still perfectly happy with two buck chuck from TJs and I hope to never refine my palette!

[Patrick Moore]

Alex and Deacon especially, but also all others: Thanks for the continuing education. I just a little while ago posted some questions about storing green coffee beans, and I hope that all will enlighten about this as well.

Patrick Moore, who buys his wine from the bottom shelves, in ABQ, NM (and btw, the Trapiche Malbec that my nearby Albertson's carries is a drinkable vin ordinaire, as is the Lindemann's Shiraz; both under $6/per if you get the half-dozen discount). (Oh! Forgot! Albertson's carries a nice Vinho Verde for under $7; forgot to look! Must go back.)

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[Garth]

  The perfect cup o' coffee is the one in hand  ....... 

  

  In hand is where Home is ..... Home is where the Heart is .... and the Heart is where Love is .... and Love is where Everything is Love .   With Love Everything , Everywhere and Everyone is the finest.

  Three cheers for Love and Love is the finest cup of All !  

  Bon Appetit Everyone !  

 

   

[timothy petersen]

I have been roasting a long time and don’t worry in the least about off gassing. Just be sure to roast at least one day prior to consuming and store the roasted beans in an airtight container after cooled. 

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[timothy petersen]

Well said. 

Sent from my iPhone

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