What would you pay for a used custom?
William
frame. It started at $2700 I think, then for sure eventually went
down to $2200 and now is at $1985. The seller is not even the
original owner, but claims the value in that this frame is 'good as
new' and you don't have to wait a couple years to get one.
I, for one, have always been amazed at what people think the re-sale
value is for custom stuff. Here's a news flash: after the original
purchaser has made their custom decisions, it is NO LONGER CUSTOM.
When I buy your used frame, it's not custom. I don't get to choose
the color, the fit, the braze-ons. They are stock. Your used custom
is at best, one of a kind, and you can describe it as having been
custom built, but it's not custom anymore. That ship has sailed.
So, if a new custom costs $3000 and a new stock frame costs $2000 from
the same builder (Waterford Rivs, for example), then your used custom
is worth some percentage less than $2000, in my opinion. Am I wrong
about that? Would you pay more for a used custom Riv (that fit you)
than you would for a used Hilsen (in your best size)? I think they
have identical value, assuming they are the right bike for the
application, etc etc.
What do you think the resale value of a used $3000 custom riv frameset
is?
Seth Vidal
> So, if a new custom costs $3000 and a new stock frame costs $2000 from
> the same builder (Waterford Rivs, for example), then your used custom
> is worth some percentage less than $2000, in my opinion. Am I wrong
> about that? Would you pay more for a used custom Riv (that fit you)
> than you would for a used Hilsen (in your best size)? I think they
> have identical value, assuming they are the right bike for the
> application, etc etc.
Well - a custom isn't made at waterford, iirc. Mark(?) Nobliette(sp?)
is doing those.
-sv
Joe Bartoe
YO(pinions)MV,
Joe
> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 12:07:27 -0800
> Subject: [RBW] What would you pay for a used custom?
> From: tape...@gmail.com
> To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
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William
That was the basis for my hypothetical. Do you think this Waterford
Custom retailed for a lot less than $3000?
On Mar 9, 12:10 pm, Seth Vidal <skvi...@gmail.com> wrote:
Bill Connell
I disagree on some of the points, depending on the frame in question.
If it has different specs - tubing, geometry, details - than available
on a production frame, it's still a custom. The degree that it's
different might be all over the map, but it's still a custom bike. The
value is exactly what someone will pay for it, and that value will
come from how much those different details are worth it to you.
For example (not knowing this frame), if it's basically an Atlantis
but with horizontal dropouts, it wouldn't be worth more than an
Atlantis plus that modification plus a paint job. If it's a more rare
custom made with very light tubing (for example), it could arguably be
worth more than any current production frame, if that's what you want.
Personally, the value of getting a custom would be the experience of
getting it new, made just for me. Once it's a used purchase, it's a
simple measure of the features of that particular frame -vs- other
similar available frames.
--
Bill Connell
St. Paul, MN
Seth Vidal
> Good point. This one on ebay claims to have been built by Waterford.
> That was the basis for my hypothetical. Do you think this Waterford
> Custom retailed for a lot less than $3000?
>
Likely just means its fairly older.
-sv
Bill Connell
IIRC, it's been many years since Waterford made the custom frames -
over 10 maybe? It seems unlikely that many of them cost $3000 new, but
the new price has very little to do with current value.
William
the value-spent part on the stuff that is not measurably better than a
stock bike. Possibly I'm stating the obvious with that. I have two
examples.
When I worked at a Specialized/Cannondale dealer, I couldn't find a
road frame to fit me just right. I custom ordered a Davidson
Signature out of Seattle. After I ordered it but before I got it I
visited a Bridgestone shop, and found that I had spec'd a 56cm RB1
identically. So, if I tried to sell it and said "It's custom sized,
you can't get a bike fit like this" you could say "Yes I can. I can
get an RB1". The fact that there was a stock bike that fit exactly
like my custom fit bike did reduce the resale value to anyone who
knows that both frames exist. I'll never sell it, though, for exactly
the reason you stated, the experience of getting it just for me. It's
mine. It's me, in a way.
Second, I worked at Missing Link for several years. A guy brought in
a trade in. A touring bike with a god-awful yellow with black sponge
smears paintjob. We offered him a trade in value and he was shocked
at how low it was. "That was a $600 paintjob alone!" he complained.
It was an awesome bike, but nobody was going to pay anything for that
color. The paintjob made the great bike less valuable (to anyone with
taste).
On Mar 9, 12:26 pm, Bill Connell <bconn...@gmail.com> wrote:
Jon Grant
market. I think of most custom-made objects as curiosities ‹ priceless to
the person it was made for, and worthless to anyone else -- regardless of
who built it. Oh, sure, if you happened upon a for-sale bike that had been
built special for someone else, and you were close to the same physical
dimensions as the owner, and your intended use, riding style, and component
preferences were nearly identical, and it were your favorite color and in
as-new condition, then you might want to consider comparing it to a new
custom, and paying some substantial fraction of its new price.
But even if all of the above were true, will a 15-year-old Waterford-built
custom Rivendell serve you better than, say, a new Waterford-built Hilsen in
any practical way?
--
Jon ³Adding Nothing Substantial, As Per Usual² Grant, in
Austin, Texas
Sean Whelan
| Ebay values for stuff have little to do with the original purchase price. Values for used frames vary hugely based on the size, and the current market for the frame. A special vintage French touring bike might go for much more than its original price, due to its rarity, while a 3 year old "Racing" Aluminum Trek might go for peanuts. I once sold a set of Silver Shifters that I bought from Rivendell for more than they sell for at Rivendell. My eBay Auction even said, "These sell for $75 at Rivbike.com: Hmmm. Sean --- On Tue, 3/9/10, William <tape...@gmail.com> wrote: |
|
|
Esteban
details that only go into a custom. Any bike bought new will be sold
for less. But sometimes, I would suspect, inflation comes into play:
an Atlantis f/f bout a few years ago at $1400 could possible be sold
for that price, considering now the f/f is $2300.
A bike is worth what you want to pay for it. Usually, a complete bike
is a better deal than buying all the parts separate. That's a nice
bike on Ebay. I'd just get a Legolas if it were something I was
looking for. Hmmm... I never thought of that.
Esteban
San Diego, Calif.
On Mar 9, 1:12 pm, Sean Whelan <strummer_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Ebay values for stuff have little to do with the original purchase price. Values for used frames vary hugely based on the size, and the current market for the frame.
>
> A special vintage French touring bike might go for much more than its original price, due to its rarity, while a 3 year old "Racing" Aluminum Trek might go for peanuts.
>
> I once sold a set of Silver Shifters that I bought from Rivendell for more than they sell for at Rivendell. My eBay Auction even said, "These sell for $75 at Rivbike.com:
>
> Hmmm.
>
> Sean
>
> --- On Tue, 3/9/10, William <tapebu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: William <tapebu...@gmail.com>
> Subject: [RBW] Re: What would you pay for a used custom?
> To: "RBW Owners Bunch" <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
> Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 3:18 PM
>
> Good point. This one on ebay claims to have been built by Waterford.
> That was the basis for my hypothetical. Do you think this Waterford
> Custom retailed for a lot less than $3000?
>
> On Mar 9, 12:10 pm, Seth Vidal <skvi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 3:07 PM, William <tapebu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > So, if a new custom costs $3000 and a new stock frame costs $2000 from
> > > the same builder (Waterford Rivs, for example), then your used custom
> > > is worth some percentage less than $2000, in my opinion. Am I wrong
> > > about that? Would you pay more for a used custom Riv (that fit you)
> > > than you would for a used Hilsen (in your best size)? I think they
> > > have identical value, assuming they are the right bike for the
> > > application, etc etc.
>
> > Well - a custom isn't made at waterford, iirc. Mark(?) Nobliette(sp?)
> > is doing those.
> > -sv
>
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Roy Yates
I once sold a set of Silver Shifters that I bought from Rivendell for more than they sell for at Rivendell. My eBay Auction even said, "These sell for $75 at Rivbike.com:
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
Dustin Sharp
higher quality paint. Bu to me the real value of a custom is not things like
paint, but the fact that tubes are actually chosen for your weight, rather
than with a 300lb rider in mind.
So I'd say a used custom might be worth a premium to me if the original
owner was near my weight, had a preference for the same level of frame flex,
and the bike had been built accordingly. Often we don't know those things,
so a used custom to me isn't worth that much more than a quality stock frame
in my size.
Dustin
Doug Van Cleve
from standard RBW geometries of the time. Functionally, the various
production bikes might be pretty much the same, but the Joe Starck/
Curt Goodrich/ Mark Nobilette/ ? built bikes are absolutely more
finely crafted than any of the Waterford or Toyo frames...
IMHO of course,
Doug
Steve Palincsar
> I'd wager that the vast majority of Riv customs don't deviate much
> from standard RBW geometries of the time. Functionally, the various
> production bikes might be pretty much the same, but the Joe Starck/
> Curt Goodrich/ Mark Nobilette/ ? built bikes are absolutely more
> finely crafted than any of the Waterford or Toyo frames...
>
> IMHO of course,
Grant's humble opinion, too. He said so in Riv Reader once, if I
remember right.
Tim McNamara
I'll probably get myself in trouble here. IMHO the Rivendell
community in general tends to overestimate the value of their used
gear. Used gear, to me, is generally to be sold at garage sale
prices but we all tend to ask "collector's" prices. And, being a
polite non-argumentive bunch we tend to pay those prices. But
really, something you've used for 4 years should not be sold at 25%
off retail. It should be sold at 25% of retail.
As you can guess, I don't buy a lot of used stuff as a result. :-)
Michael_S
Just one comment, Tim, I generally agree with you, but EBAY has
totally changed the world of used bike gear.
I am consistently amazed at what people will pay for used stuff. I've
sold many things that went for higher prices than new and the items
were still available!
cyclotourist
I think of my All Rounder as a AHH with cantis and a very nice paint job.
Waterford Rivs don't have the same cache as a Joe/Curt/Mark bike. Again, functionally the same though.
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Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA
"Bicycling is a big part of the future. It has to be. There is something wrong with a society that drives a car to workout in a gym." ~Bill Nye, scientist guy
Tim McNamara
> On Mar 9, 4:45 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>> It's what the market will bear, of course.
>>
>> I'll probably get myself in trouble here. IMHO the Rivendell
>> community in general tends to overestimate the value of their used
>> gear. Used gear, to me, is generally to be sold at garage sale
>> prices but we all tend to ask "collector's" prices. And, being a
>> polite non-argumentive bunch we tend to pay those prices. But
>> really, something you've used for 4 years should not be sold at 25%
>> off retail. It should be sold at 25% of retail.
>>
>> As you can guess, I don't buy a lot of used stuff as a result. :-)
> It's all about supply and demand , baby!
Well, *perceived* supply and demand anyway.
> Just one comment, Tim, I generally agree with you, but EBAY has
> totally changed the world of used bike gear.
> I am consistently amazed at what people will pay for used stuff. I've
> sold many things that went for higher prices than new and the items
> were still available!
It's amazing sometimes, you are right on the money. I have tastes in
music that are not readily satisfied at the local record stores and
often search eBay only to find items priced for used higher than I
would pay at Amazon.com for new. And I see this happen with bike
stuff regularly. And also other silly stuff, like a 10 year old
clapped out pair of MTB shoes that should be thrown in the garbage-
but nope, for auction with a starting price of $20.
Esteban
went for what, $2300 complete? A new Roadeo is gonna be $4K
complete. Its a nice bike and well worth the money. But considering
the cost of an equitable new replacement, there's now way a Ram should
sell for $600. It matters less what it cost than what the value of
the bike means in today's dollars.
Tim McNamara
On Mar 9, 2010, at 7:51 PM, cyclotourist wrote:
> Waterford Rivs don't have the same cache as a Joe/Curt/Mark bike.
> Again, functionally the same though.
I will admit to preferring the Waterford era bikes. I liked that
they were made with 753. And I preferred the simpler aesthetic, I
find some of the Joe/Curt era bikes to have too much gingerbread for
my tastes. But then I prefer fillets to lugs anyway. I've always
liked the looks of fillets.
cyclotourist
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Tim McNamara
As with all sales of used items, condition figures highly as does
age, scarcity, etc. So that complete Rambouillet went for $2300 a
few years ago. Say it'd cost $4000 to do it now based on the Roadeo
frame. It's 4 years old, it's seen 20,000 miles of use. Is it
"worth" $1700 used just because Rivendell's prices went up? Or is it
maybe worth $3000 now because the Roadeo would be $4000? Would my
1996 All-Rounder ($1400 for the frame, fork and headset, IIRC) be
worth $4,000 because a new custom might cost $5,000 (I actually saw
something very much like that on eBay)?
When I bought my 1990 Volvo used in 2001, I paid $3800 because that
was the fair market value for its age, condition and maintenance
record. If I sold it now it wouldn't be worth more than $1000
despite the fact that it's in excellent mechanical condition and
probably good for another 100,000 miles. The price of the 240 was
not influenced by the fact that a new Volvo would have cost 10 times
as much. Nor should the price of a used bike. In my estimation a 4
year old Rambouillet would be worth much closer to $600 than to
$1700. I wouldn't pay you even $750 for it, frankly, because I think
that'd be too much (unless it was extremely pristine and happened to
have my favorite parts on it). You may evaluate that differently and
might be willing to pay more and feel like you got a good deal.
That's fine because it's between you and the seller. I can only tell
you how I think about this stuff which is not the same as telling you
how you should do it.
As for selling, I've had occasion to sell three bikes in the past 30
years, all of them old race bikes I was no longer using. They were
priced according to the ideas I've expressed. The buyers got good
bikes and I felt I got a fair price. I select my bikes very
carefully and as a result I don't feel much need to sell and am
planning to keep them a long time- I've got three bikes now and two
of them are over 10 years old, the other one is about 5 years old.
With a little maintenance they may very well see me out. What got me
thinking about this a few years ago reading some articles by Brian
Walker about his bike, a mid 50s Jack Taylor that he rode for five
decades (with the same Carradice saddle bag). A half a century of
riding- tours, pottering around, nipping down to the pub or the
store, rides with buddies- on one bike! Every time you see that bike
you are reminded of all those times. It becomes a touchstone for
your life. What a wonderful thing!
rob markwardt
article... frame at that time was $1050...though this one does come
with BB and headset. I remember passing on an Atlantis a few years
ago because the seller wanted more than what the frame orignally sold
for. Peanuts compared to what they cost now...kind of wish I'd bought
it!
> > -sv- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
EricP
Because haven't been back "into" bikes long enough (just under six
years), hard to judge on used bicycle (and part) prices.
eBay is an interesting market as others have mentioned. Things can go
for more than "retail". But then, I'll argue it's only retail if the
place has it in stock. Probably am remembering this wrong, but when
Sean had his shifters for sale, Rivendell had been out of them for a
bit. It's also possible the buyer doesn't want to deal with a
particular retail seller.
Things are also subject to fads. If folks have noticed, a few Bleriot
frames have sold recently for well more than new.
But custom bikes? Really hard to predict. Can be the same way with
custom guitars. Especially acoustics. Have seen really nice,
expensive instruments sell used for very little. Especially when one
considers the type and quality of wood involved. Not to mention
building time. Yet, if the builder is someone who is in demand, used
can go for nearly as much as new. (Kevin Ryan and Jim Olson guitars
come to mind).
Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Sean Whelan
| The thrill of victory is another factor with eBay. Bidders get emotionally invested in the "contest" aspect of the bidding and they want to "win." A bidder starts imagining just how that old Carradice bag is going to come in handy on next week's ride and they bid higher than they normally would. In the case of my Silver shifters, I included a link to Riv, who were selling them in stock at the time. My shipping was flat rate, so not likely better or worse than Riv. They only went for a few dollars more, but it totally cracked me up. I have sold some other components for far more than I thought I would get, and have purchased things for as little as 99 cents. I love eBay. Sean --- On Wed, 3/10/10, EricP <eric...@aol.com> wrote: |
|
|
|
cm
pay" argument. Yes, of course in order to sell something you need to
have a buyer who is willing to pay that something, but it always seems
like stating the obvious. Things do have value and that value can be
determined, or at least approximated to some degree. So is a 15 year
old custom worth more than what it cost new? I think that depends.
Somethings seem to fetch more than they did when they were new-- rolex
watches come to mind. And somethings fetch shockingly less-- high end
sports cars for instance. And maybe the "it's worth what someone is
willing to pay for it argument" works to some degree, I think it has
more to do with what the original purchaser paid for and what
percentage of that still exists as related to a new example of the
same. For instance, a 500 class Mercedes from 1999 that sold for over
$100,000 new might not sell for $10,000. I would argue that is b/c the
original purchaser wasnt paying just for the car itself, but was
paying for a new high end Mercedes. As it aged and became less new,
less high end, less cutting edge, the value dropped significantly--
maybe to the point that it is only worth the value of the car itself.
With a rolex, the models dont change that often and when they do, it
is usually more in the workings rather than cosmetically. The person
who buys it new is buying more than a watch (or they would have bought
a timex) and the rolex retains those extra things long after they
purchase it. That keeps the value high and what people are willing to
pay high.
So when a person buys a cutom Rivendell, what are they buying? and
what percentage of that retains in the used example? It is not just a
bike, or we'd all be on surly's. I would think that it is worth MORE
than they paid for it, though less than what a new example might cost.
Unless there is something unique about it that makes it more
collectible, desirable, or now has more of that "extra" than it did
when they bought it (akin to buying a painting from an artist before
they have a big break).
Cheers!
cm
LF
<SNIP>
> What do you think the resale value of a used $3000 custom riv frameset
> is?
I own a Riv Custom bicycle (Joe & Joe), purchased without wheels
from an iBob. It is priceless, and not for sale. I enjoy riding a
work of art. When I'm done with it, I hope it becomes a family
heirloom.
The original owner, IMO, suffered from "princess and the pea"
syndrome; he sold a bunch of Rivs that he couldn't get comfortable on,
and then flamed the basic design of Riv bikes. He simply set it up
wrong for him. Get a good bike, in the right fit ballpark, and you
can make it as comfortable as is possible -- with seat, stem, and
handlebar adjustments.
Same with my Sheldon-assist Raleigh-Twenty build. It's priceless.
The used market is quite variable. Best advice: try to buy low and
sell high. The resale value varies according to what the whims of
the market at the moment.
An early (1996-7) 50 cm Waterford built Custom Riv complete bike with
26" wheels sold this past Feb. on e-bay for $1000. IF a 58-61 cm
complete bike with 700c wheels, is offered for sale in May .... who
knows what the value will be? Many e-bay sellers have been very
surprised with the sale price of their items.
Best,
Larry
William
when I have no clue whatsoever what somebody out there is willing to
pay for my thing, I always start the bidding at the absolute lowest
price I'd be willing to see it go for. Most of the time, I start ebay
auctions at $1 for that reason. It's usually stuff I don't need
anymore, and if a good friend asked me to give it to him, I would.
So, start it at $1 and let the free market tell you what it's worth.
Just like the entertainment value of 'shopping competitively' and
winning, it's entertaining for me to watch the free market tell me
what stuff is worth. This seller and lots of others I think have a
'buy it now' or equivalent mindset to try to get away with a price
that is pushing the limits. I get that mindset. It's kind of like
the opposite of buyers remorse: "what if I could have sold that thing
for a little bit more?". Setting a really high buy it now kind of
price is no longer an auction of course.
One thing I really used to enjoy is buying used bikes that were fairly
priced, update the build and resell them, usually to friends. It's
pretty much impossible to do that on ebay anymore. A 20 year old $200
10-speed is $180 Buy-it-now these days, plus $120 shipping. Forget
that.
Tim McNamara
On Mar 10, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Sean Whelan wrote:
> The thrill of victory is another factor with eBay. Bidders get
> emotionally invested in the "contest" aspect of the bidding and
> they want to "win."
This is an excellent point. Shop victoriously!
JimD
I'm riding a custom Rivendell. Bought it new, paid retail. Asked that
it be modeled after my Romulus.
For me it's a nicer riding bike than the Romulus.
It's a great riding bike and pretty as a peach. I plan to keep it
forever.
For me cm has it right, my custom is worth more than I paid for it.
Had I found this as a used bike I'd think I'd died and gone to heaven.
-JimD
On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:24 AM, cm wrote:
snip...
Ken Freeman
This is an excellent point. Shop victoriously!
Ken Freeman
Ann Arbor, MI USA