New vs. old Homer geometry, ride characteristics

[Jason Fuller]

Hi all, I apologize if this has been discussed to death already but I couldn't find this specific topic discussed by searching. 

I am curious if anyone here has riding experience with both the new geometry Homer's and the old Waterford version, as they are extremely different looking bikes! I can buy into the notion that most people ride bikes with too-short chainstays, but I have to admit, I cannot fathom wanting to ride a bike with 475mm stays for sporty purposes.  I was very excited to see the price come down, but the new geometry was a deal-breaker for me.  I adore the original Homer, at least on paper (and on screen) but the new version just does not 'look' sporty at all - but I fully realize you can't tell how it rides by staring at it!

My thought was it's an artifact of Grant's changing priorities as he gets older, which is completely valid, but I'm not ready to go there yet (still in my 30's, so hanging onto sportier geometry!).  As such, I bought one of the final Sam Hillbornes because I viewed it as the last of that generation of Rivendell, the generation that I identify with.  

Maybe one day I'll find a 52cm Homer with the old geometry, but I am really hoping there is a new model coming out in the coming years that will fill the gap between the new Homer and the 700c road models. It feels like a pretty big gap to me! 

Photo of my Sam attached for viewing pleasure.  

[Reid Echols]

If you want fast road riding, the Homer isn’t going to ride much different than the Sam (in my experience with bigger sizes of both models, anyway). The Rambouillet I have feels quite a bit more lively than my Waterford Homer did, set up with the same wheelset and 38mm compass tires.

Honestly long stays on my Appaloosa don’t seem to affect the ride nearly as much as which tires I choose to run. It even feels a bit springier than my Sam did (perhaps due to the length and my 215lbs or so of rider weight).

Reid in Austin

[Bill Lindsay]

The OP said he was curious, but didn't ask a question.  

I owned an "old version" Homer, and have ridden the new Homer a little bit, but have not owned one.  I owned an "old version" Atlantis and now own a new version Atlantis.  

You are right that the long chainstay bikes look different than traditional, mainstream, or retro bikes.  They look different, but in all cases the new ones ride a lot better, to me.  Just as fast, just as agile, more fun, more stable, more comfortable.  The old ones look traditional and they ride fine.  If you can let go of the 'deal breaker' commitment to look, I think you could get yourself a better riding bike.  The old ones are very very good bikes, and ride as well or better than any other bike that looks the same.  If you are locked to a look, they are a fine choice.  Cycling is a social activity, and new Rivendells look weird.  The less you know, the weirder they look.  It could get annoying having everybody comment "nice cruiser!" or "how much does THAT thing weigh?"  Riding a more normal looking bike could ward off some of those comments.  

For what it's worth, I also own a Hillborne, and it is great.  I also own two Rivendell Racing bikes: a Roadeo and a Legolas.  Those are extremely traditional classic looking racing bikes, and they ride as well or better than similar traditional classic looking racing bikes.  I'm happy to own them.  So there is nothing wrong with wanting a particular look and choosing to buy bikes that look a particular way.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Jason Fuller]

Thanks for the feedback, my 'question' was what those who've ridden both thought about the ride differences, specifically around the long stays. I know that as unconventional as they are, Grant knows what he's doing and had good reason to do it - but I felt that those reasons might not apply as much to me as they do to him. I can imagine it makes the bike more comfortable over bumps, and I've even noticed that with the Sam's 455mm stays. But it's hard to shake the traditional thought that long stays = less nimble, less fun bike. For instance, the Long Haul Trucker does not pull off the long stays very well in terms of handling, but I am understanding more and more that there are a bunch of factors at play with the geometry to make the longer chainstays work, not to mention the tubing choices. 

I hope to get the chance to experience one myself one day, but not many Rivendells here in BC (Canada) 

[Bill Lindsay]

Jason

I think it is common to look at Rivendells and assume they are poor riding bikes based purely on the looks.  Even though it is common, I think it is a mistake.  I think it is also a mistake to assume that Bike X and a Long Haul Trucker should ride the same because they have similar chainstay lengths.  Those of you who can't ride the bikes can't know for sure. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Jason Fuller]

Precisely what I was getting at, yes. That's why I thought it would be really interesting to hear how each version of the AHH felt, from someone fortunate enough to ride both. I bet the new version is more comfortable, but I'm curious if the sporty-ness of the bike feels any different. 

[Bill Lindsay]

The sportyness of the new Homer and the new Atlantis is better. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[John G.]

FWIW, I tried out a MIT Atlantis and loved it. It made me wish my Roadeo had longer chainstays.

And I was plenty fast on my MUSA Atlantis. Wish I still had it.

[Sean B.]

As someone with a MIT AHH, I've wondered the same. Still have FOMO from not getting a MUSA AHH.

[Garth]

There comes that time when it's either jump off into the "unknown/abyss" .... or don't.  You can ask for opinions about "what's it like" all day long, but your experience will never ever ever be like any other. 

Riding a bike is no different, let alone any other moment. You can ask "what's it's like" of endless people and there will be endless answers of varying conviction. None can prepare you or dictate to you what your ride will be like.  Why ? Because Life isn't a cookie cutter prefabricated/duplicated experience. Every moment is unique and original.  A frame's ride qualities don't exist in a vacuum all by themselves. What "measuring/accountings" fail to account for is not only the one measuring, but all "everything else" .... in real-time, which is really Infinite ..... never the same/twice, never duplicated. 

[Abcyclehank]

Jason,

I bring a different perspective because I come to this with a long legged perspective (99.5 PBH). I ride 67cm frames and up generally.
In the XL sizes I find a difference between the old school single top tube traditional near parallel (less than 2* rise) diamond framed bikes and strongly prefer them to the new Atlantis and Homer Hilsen.
Their are many other tall brethren who share my feelings based on the fact that I have collected and sold many and the demand is crazy high fortunately. Part of this is probably certainly the elimination of 65+cm offerings (RIP 65 Chem H).
Yes all the extra long chainstayed /wheelbase newer models built in Taiwan are stupendously built, wonderfully stable and still ride lively and fast with the correct engine and setting.
I would never likely question Bill Lindsay’s personal insights yet unlike Manny to my knowledge he has not ridden many monster Rivendell bikes.
That said the rider inquiring is much closer to Bill’s size than mine.
Sometimes there are variables than readers of the list should
consider outside of the direct rhetoric being presented.

Sincerely,
Ryan Hankinson
West Michigan

[John Phillips]

  From an 85cm PBH viewpoint, I think you would really need to ride both the old and new Homers to see what you like.

  I have an older 57cm Homer and a 54cm Hunqapillar ,and I've ridden one of the new longer wheel base Rivs. It was a nice riding bike, but I'd never trade my older Rivs for one. The geometry of the older models is perfect for me, but I can only speak for myself.

John

[Jason Fuller]

John, Ryan;

Good insights, personally I have a 80.5 cm pbh so I think that colours my opinion.  I am pretty low between the wheels compared to tall folks.

[Bill Lindsay]

" but I'd never trade my older Rivs for one"

TRADE!?!?!?  Hell no!  Always buy more bikes.  Keep what you've got, and keep buying more.  More bikes!  

:)

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[John Phillips]

    The current Riv line up just isn't my thing. The older Riv line up was perfect for me and 6 years ago I would have been completely happy with any of them. I bought a 54cm Hunqapillar first, because I thought it was the most adaptable, and I think it's perfect running on any tire between 38mm to 55mm. I love that bike.

   For me, the current ones don't have the same magic. But that's just me.

   I think anyone should ride the new Riv lineup and/or find an older model if they wish to see what suits them best.

   Everyone is different!

John

[Jason Fuller]

 At least from an armchair engineer perspective, and I recognize the limitations and dangers of doing so, I agree.  I've felt for a lot of years that Grant's designs have matured along with himself. I have a 1992 XO-1 as well which is clearly a very, very different bike than you'd see Grant make today. Is that because he's a lot more experienced now, or because his priorities have shifted as he's gotten older?  I tend to think it's as much the latter as it is the former. As someone in their late 30's, I tend to prefer his designs from when he was around that age (but no 700c for me, because 650b is so abundant now)

[Bill Lindsay]

"I have a 1992 XO-1 as well which is clearly a very, very different bike than you'd see Grant make today. Is that because he's a lot more experienced now, or because his priorities have shifted as he's gotten older?"

It's definitely both.  Grant is a better, more evolved, and better equipped bike designer now.  And his priorities have definitely evolved:  He cares about ride quality more than he used to, and he obsesses about design details much more than he did at B-Stone, and he has completely liberated himself from bicycle shapes that appear traditional or conventional to the eye.  Grant used to be called a retro-grouch.  True retro-grouches dislike most Rivendells today, because they are the polar opposite of conventional nostalgic designs.  They are the most advanced, unconventional and fearless shaped bikes out there.  I'd possibly include Jones in the same category: a designer who cares only about performance and not about conventional appearance.  Rivendell used to be a place to buy conventional looking, 'old looking' bikes.  Now it's a place to buy great performing bikes that may be funny looking to some observers, and downright ugly to traditionalists.  If bike design hit it's apex in the 1930s France, Rivendells aren't for you.  If bike design hit it's apex in 1980s Italy, Rivendells aren't for you, etc.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[brendonoid]

Here's my perspective, it is a subjective opinion in a world of bicycles where people froth at the mouth over the most inconsequential details.

I own and ride regularly;

a 63cm Waterford Homer (2012) 

MIT 60cm Sam double TT with sidepulls (2013)

58cm Appaloosa (2017)

I would never describe the ride of any of these bikes as sporty. The Homer is still the most beautiful thing in the whole world with its more traditional geometry and I still ride it every single day because it is my commuter.

On the weekends though I'm riding my appaloosa on the trails. I find it so easy to power up a hill in the saddle with a high cadence with that mad wheelbase to the point that when i ride my Sam up the same trail i find myself popping wheelies or losing traction using the same technique. Descents again the long wheelbase is superior. Even on tight single track i find I'm working with the bike instead of being out of the saddle and whipping the bike around under me I feel like I'm in the bike surfing the berms. It's radically different and just wonderful.

The current line up of Rivs just aren't as pretty as the used to be (I still wish I'd bought a Hunq when i could've) but they are getting better and better to actually ride.

[Lester Lammers]

You need to ride one and decide. That is the only way to know what YOU prefer. The new Homer has lighter tubing than your Sam and the longer stays should make for a comfy ride. 

[j.schwartz]

I don't have much to say on ride characteristics bc I've never ridden an AHH, but...as far as aesthetic design goes, I have an interesting take.

I purchased my first Riv in late 2008.  It was the first gen SH , the green and gold one.  

I think it was their first "expanded" geo bike.  I was really visually turned off on upsloping tube but at about half the cost of the AHH (and the fact that it had cantis), it made more sense for me to get that one.

Fast forward to over 10 years later and now my bike design eye has totally shifted. I find horizontal top tubes unattractive because I know they'd be more uncomfortable for my riding style.

I still have that SH and have had other Riv's come and go.  I also have a silver 55 Appaloosa which in many ways is an evolved SH and I think both bikes with their 6º (or so) up slope look "correct" and beautiful.

[Jason Fuller]

Interesting history, j.schwartz! And, unrelated to this topic, hearing multiple accounts now of people keeping their SH's long term while other models come and go has been reinforcing my decision to get one.

I am coming from the low-trail randonneur bike as my primary interest over the past 8 or 10 years, where level top tubes are an integral part of the aesthetic. They are usually tall for their length to keep the head tubes long enough. The sloping TT Riv's look beautiful to me though, and the SH is basically perfect from a visual standpoint.

I never meant for this topic to be about questioning the motives of the new geometry, I just wanted to hear from those who've ridden both to see if my preconceptions are indeed based on myths!  Sounds like it's more complicated than that, and is really a personal thing.

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I have a 79.5 cm PBH, so I can relate from a height standpoint.  I have a 54 cm 1st generation Homer.  It is a wonderful bike, no doubt, but since then I've gotten my 52.5 cm custom with long chainstays.  When I am riding on the road, the long chainstays just add much more stability without affecting the mobility/liveliness of the ride at all.  In fact, I find myself going down S. Park (infamous for the Strava downhill death) and I am a bit scared with my Homer because it is not as stable as my custom.  I think it just tracks better on turns too, so if you like twisty descents, then having the long chainstays helps me.  You might wonder if there's something special about my custom bike vs the Homer.  I haven't ridden the new AHH, but rode the new Atlantis and it's wonderful.  I rode the blue Rosco Bubbe road model --that was a very lively and responsive bike that I rode; Grant based my custom chainstays on my appreciation of the handling of that bike.  I would guess that the AHH is designed similarly to the road Rosco models.

With that said, Rivendell bikes tend to be very sensitive to weight shifts, rather than sensitive to steering changes.  If you appreciate the Rivendell responsiveness to weight shifts, then I'm sure you will love the new AHH.

Toshi

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[John Hawrylak]

On Friday, November 15, 2019 at 10:50:01 AM UTC-5, Jason Fuller wrote:

[Luis Garcia]

Hello everyone. This is Luis Garcia in Dallas, Texas. I believe this is my first post on the RBW Owners Bunch. I find this thread very interesting. This past spring, I purchased my first Rivendell...a 61.5 MIT AHH. I first learned about Rivendell and Grant about 10 years ago when I got back into cycling after laying off for a few short years. At that time, I was ready to shed the racer wannabe mentality that I had been holding onto over many years. Since then, I have done lots of learning, lots of experimenting with different types of bikes, and eventually determined that sport tourers were the bikes for me. I currently own an '81 Trek 610 and an '85 Trek 510. I consider these my "poor man's Homers" (They fit 700 x 37 tires). When Grant/Riv rolled out the new MIT Homers with super long chainstays, different geometry, and super tall head tubes, I was aghast. I thought my benchmark and dream bike had been ruined! At the time, the only redeeming quality I could see was the lower price of entry into the world of Rivendell. As time went by, I studied and read more. I became convinced that the new Homer would be good. Maybe not as good as the original Homer, but good enough for me. This past spring when Riv offered 10% off on larger sizes, I pulled the trigger and bought one. Man oh man, I am so glad that I pulled the trigger! I have never ridden an original Homer. The closest bikes to an original Homer I have ridden are my aforementioned Treks. For me, there is no comparison. I now see the new Homers as the current state of the art for non-racing road bike design. Yes, the new Homers look different. Yes, several people have called my Homer a very nice cruiser. They haven't got a clue. I rarely ride any of my other bikes now, and I do mean rarely. I love my MIT Homer. Hope this helps.

[Bill Lindsay]

That's a helluva first post, Luis!  Please don't make it your last.  Most importantly, let's see photos of your Homer build!

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[esoterica etc]

Here, here! Welcome to the group and kudos on the intro. Now I second Bill’s request: show us some pics!

~Mark 

Raleigh, NC

On Nov 20, 2019, at 20:58, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Jason Fuller]

Wow, my biggest contribution to this group is and will probably continue to be just providing Luis a platform for that post! I am really glad you popped in when you did, and shared those experiences! I completely empathize with your history and feelings about the AHH, and to be honest, I did kind of expect the ending! When I posted up the OP, I sincerely hoped the new AHH geometry would end up winning me over.

Anxious to see these photos as well!

[in Dallas nick]

Well Luis, great insight on your post.

Gosh, living in the same area and both liking Rivs, perhaps we should met up

for a bike ride or a bike build up, coffee or something!

Ha!

Just kidding!

Luis and I met up around 10 years ago after my last bike tour after he saw my highly modified touring bike posted online (time flys).

We became great friends and have had many cycling adventures together.

I've been after him to post his wonderful Homer build since we built it up last April.

I sent him the link to this thread hoping he would participate as Luis is a real 'thinking man' when it comes to researching and setting up his bikes with just the right parts that work for him and articulate in conveying the why's and what nots of it all.

Paul in Dallas 

Looking forward to our next ride.

Although  I think your Homer makes it even harder to keep up.

[Luis Garcia]

Hello everyone!  Thank you for the warm welcome!   I am very pleased to be a part of this fine bunch of folks.  I have attached a few photos of my Homer, which were taken over the past few months.  You will see that I have been experimenting with the cockpit. Amongst the cockpit experiments/combinations have been the Albatross bar, Billie bar, Brooks B17, Cambium C17.   All of these experiments have been very good, but I think I may have recently found my bliss by moving slightly beyond Grant's ethos.  I have mounted a Selle SMP TRK (trekking model) saddle and a Nitto B356 M's Bar to Homer.  The B356 is based on the Albatross.  The curves have been squared off, which allow for a nicer perch for the hands than the curves on the Albatross.  I find this flatter area is better for cruising straight down the road than the curves on the Alba.  BTW, I ordered the B356 from Blue Lug in Tokyo.  You may also notice the extra long punched and grooved cork grips. I took two sets of the grips and shortened them a bit to make one extra long set of grips.  I like my brake levers mounted further forward on my swept back bars. This makes me feel more stable when braking while going fast down a hill than when mounted in the more traditional position.  I wanted/needed more cork to grip!   I know it doesn't look very traditional, but everything feels fantastic.  Here are a few other highlights of my build:

-Shimano 105 crankset w/outer bearing bottom bracket

-Rivendell Silver 45/35 chainrings  (This plus my cassette is plenty for Dallas.)

-Sheldon Brown custom Cyclotouriste 13-34, 9-speed cassette

-Velocity Dyad wheels laced to 36h Deore LX hubs

-Continental Sport Contact 700  x 42 tires (My new favorite tires.)

-Velo Orange setback seatpost

-Nitto (long) stem adapter

-Nitto UI-31 stem

-Gilles Bethoud 786KF saddle bag with Klick-Fix mount

There will be a few more tweaks to be made in the not too distant future, but as it sits, this bike is by far my favorite of all time.  One thing I did not mention in my first post is how responsive my MIT Homer is.  It really surprises me each time I go for a ride. The MIT Homer truly is much more responsive than you think it is going to be.  Everyone who has ridden my Homer says 2 things:  1. It is very, very smooth and 2. It is very responsive.  

There you go my friends.  

Luis

[Jeffrey B]

Can I ask where you got the water bottles? they are great.

[Luis Garcia]

Hey Jeffrey,

If you are asking about the clear bottles with the black tops, those came from Rivendell a few years ago. The other bottles are Camelback bottles purchased at REI.

Lui

[Luis Garcia]

Thank you Bill for the welcome! I posted photos of my Homer with details in this thread. Looking forward to participating on this list!

Luis

[M Talley]

I found this thread very helpful. Thanks Jason for asking. I have wondered the same thing. The input from both Toshi and Luis have helped me to a better understanding of the differences in ride qualities.

I'm also curious about how and when the long stay trend began. Is there blog entry? I remember something about a Surly Big Dummy used for cargo runs about the time some experimental builds.

Cheers,

Mark

[tc]

Luis, thanks for posting.  I'm gonna try this extra cork grip idea.  I had seen this video by Dan Stroud a while ago, where he moved his brake levers fwd of the 'normal' position for the Albatross bar.  (But he extended his grip area with what looks like small sections of ESI grips).  Thanks for the reminder!

Tom

On Thursday, November 21, 2019 at 5:42:24 PM UTC-5, Luis Garcia wrote:

...You may also notice the extra long punched and grooved cork grips. I took two sets of the grips and shortened them a bit to make one extra long set of grips.  I like my brake levers mounted further forward on my swept back bars. This makes me feel more stable when braking while going fast down a hill than when mounted in the more traditional position.  I wanted/needed more cork to grip! ... 

Luis