Clem Smith Jr, 7 month and 2200 miles in

[Zed Martinez]

After switching from my original albastache build to boscos a while back and getting some more mileage and longer rides under me, I keep meaning to do a proper medium-term write-up on the Clem and just kept being too busy to do it. I finally had a quiet evening to sit down and apparently I had a lot more to say about my past 7 months with the Clem than I expected, so, I'll spare everyone the wall of text, but if you're 4,000 words curious about Riv's economy bruiser, boy do I have a blog post for you. 

The short version is: I probably could have just titled this 'How I Got Over My Own Hubris and Learned to Love the Bosco'

http://zedmartinez.com/2016/06/rivendell-clem-smith-jr/

[Michael Morrissey]

That was a very good review!  I love the picture of your bike with the ortlieb bags pushed all the way back, and the other cargo shots too.

It's very perceptive of you to comment on how the Clem would be a tough sell for your friends.  I think maybe most of Rivendell's customers are people who have loved, commuted, and modified older bikes.  Perhaps that's the factor that makes the difference in choosing bikes.

Your writeup on the Boscos detailing the 3 positions definitely makes me want to try them!

m

[Joe Bernard]

That was a very entertaining/informative read. I agree (and may have mentioned once) that CLEM may be asking the question, "Why would you need any more Riv?", but I suppose Riv Riders tend to buy up as the years go by anyway. Or they buy two CLEMs! I have a green 45 I bought as a frameset and electrified, and my non-boosted mustard 52 complete build is on the way. They're great bikes.

[Zed Martinez]

but I suppose Riv Riders tend to buy up as the years go by anyway

You know, I thought about this too, and the thing with the Clem is you can't really buy up in the line from it, in a way. The Joe and Hunq are both similar in their ways, but not really the same. The Joe is lighter and has a much lighter fork especially. And even if the Hunq gets longer stays, it won't have the longer top tube that makes adjusting the reach on the Boscos so nice or the really open out of the saddle space the Clem has. On paper anyway, I haven't got to ride either in person and that is always capable of making the on-paper irrelevant :P I was talking with my buddy about it a long ride on Memorial Day, about how now that I had things dialed in I was having a real hard time understanding what a Hunq or an Atlantis (both rides I considered before the Clem preorder went up) would offer me other than lugs, and maybe now if anything what I'd want down the road is just a custom with Clemmy geo but fully lugged and with the full paint job, but then I'd probably get shy about using it like a daily workhorse like that and then that'd make me sad. 

But, like I said, it does have me considering a Sam to replace the lighter 'stached build it replaced. But, I think I've got a couple more years of riding this one to pay myself back in sweat before I'm ready to finance that one. Which is good, I should be good and ready to appreciate a lighter ride buy then. Maybe with the Clem doing so well it'll even be the first bike I build where I stop at fenders and maybe a Mark's rack, and don't overbuild in the name of 'but what if 30 miles out I need to...'   

Michael, it was your comparison of the Clem and Joe and the Boscos there that made me go 'I had that exact opinion too just a very short time ago' and reminded me I keep not getting these thoughts down. I almost replied on your thread but didn't want to hijack it. So, glad it makes you want to try them, but really, thanks for being the seed that got me to write this.

[Mark in Beacon]

Good review, Zed. I've been meaning to post a 6-month review myself, now I might not need to! I bought a stock complete Clementine, so there is some difference. I have been saying Give Bosco a Chance at every opportunity. I committed to 100 days, and it makes a difference. Mine are bullmoose, too, so only adjustable in one direction. They are super.

As you point out, the Clems were designed for these bars. Not that they won't operate well with some others, but the designer envisioned these with Boscos. Can't remember whether it was the wonderful Clem brochure, but somewhere Grant wrote, about the Bosco bulls being a bit locked in, "trust us."

Trying to isolate things like chainstay length, tubing specs, etc. in isolation kind of misses the point in my opinion, and I think your review conveys this holistic idea when talking about Rivendells in general and the Clems in particular.

I still have the stock tires. I was planning to go with an upgrade to Switchbacks (and trying to trade some Hetres right now) but honestly, the stock tires do the job. I hear you on the weight. Not noticeable on the road at all. But heading up my three-story walk-up with my Back o Bike bags full of dinner...whoah! Way much heavier than my similarly equipped/loaded Le Tour mixte.

Thanks for taking the time to write up your thoughts. Very enjoyable.

On Friday, June 17, 2016 at 10:36:55 PM UTC-4, Zed Martinez wrote:

[Jim D Massachusetts]

Thanks for the review of the Clem. I have one and enjoy it a lot.         Jim D                Massachusetts

On Friday, June 17, 2016 at 10:36:55 PM UTC-4, Zed Martinez wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

I'm in the middle of your review, and I think it is very well done, but I interrupt myself here to say:

DON'T USE TIRE LINERS!!! My God, man! No tire liners on Compass tires!!!! Use Orange Seal in your tubes instead. 

I very briefly used Mr Tuffys with non-Tourguard Paselas, and after about 1 commute, took them out -- I could feel the drag.

More in the offing.

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[Patrick Moore]

Zed -- thanks for that review. From my point of view, at any rate, it's one of the most informative and helpful reviews of a Riv model that I've read. 

I am very chuffed that you and so many others find the newish "cruiser" style of Rivendell bikes, far from limiting energetic riding, actually promoting it. 

I started riding "seriously" about the same time Eddy Merckx went professional -- 1969 -- and I've long had a bias toward old-fashioned road race bikes, like the 1973 Motobecane Grande Record that I once owned: clearance for at least 35s and probably 37s; 45 cm chainstays to end of long dropouts; light 531 throughout. (I used this as an errand fixie, and carried up to 45 lb on it without real problems.) I've also owned 5 Rivendells -- 3 custom roads, a Sam Hill, and a Ram. I presently have my two later ('99 and '03) custom Roads, and my vague idea or "theme" for these was these old, high clearance racing bikes.

I've also found long since that my left palm hurts after a few miles with any but a drop bar. 

But your review, and that of many others on this list, is beginning to convince me that Grant has hit a sweet spot of design with sweep back bars, long tts, and long chainstays. I'd really like to test ride a Clem or Appaloosa. 

So, once again, thanks for your excellent review.

2 addenda, or rather addita: 

1. Compass tires are so wonderful that it really is a shame to depreciate their ride quality with liners. Please consider using Orange Seal in your tubes.

2. I urge everyone to keep the wonderfullness of drop bars in mind. I personally find them more comfortable than any other sort of bar -- I've not use the Albastache, Bosco, and all the other post 2010 or so sweepbacks that Rivendell has produced, so I am keeping an open mind about these.

But drop bars have been around for well over 100 years for very good reasons, and some of the more recent resuscitations produced by Compass and Velo Orange -- I have particularly in mind the Maes Parallel and the Rando type bars (VO's nomenclature is somewhat different than Compasses) are exceptionally and superlatively comfortable. I use the Maes Parallel or VO copy on all 3 of my customs (the 3d is a Matthews "road bike for dirt). Please keep in mind (all you who read this) that drop bars can be superlatively comfortable if well designed and well positioned. 

[Patrick Moore]

One last remark on the general topic: even such a dyed in the wool roadie as Jobst Brandt, who for my generation (he was actually 1 generation earlier than mine -- 1935 versus 1955 -- was the guru par excellence on bicycle matters, dueling with Sheldon for the top Olympian spot) is recorded as having instructed the builders of his custom road bikes not to cut the chainstays at all; I guess that would mean 45 ++ cm stays. So, even from a dedicated roadie perspective, long stays are annointed and blessed.

[Zed Martinez]

Patrick, I'm well used to tire liner chuffing people ;) Fact of the matter is, at 48mm, they really ride only barely discernibly different, and I have never had tube sealant deflect a wood nail but I have had that with tire liners. My poor Compass' are in miserable shape, I noticed earlier today going to the grocery there's yet another lamda-shaped hole in my tire from shard of glass that got pushed back out at some point. I'll remain a fan of tire liners for commuting and won't be ashamed of it, but I am also planning to try the updated Schwalbe Marathon Supremes next time instead. We'll see how they do, but, whatever you think about the sacrilege here, I think if I remember your tire preferences right we can both agree it's worth it either way for the cornering traction Compass offers in wet weather. We'll see how the next tires do once these wear out, but the way I see it, a Compass tire at 90% is still 20% better than my 38mm New Xpress' on that Fuji were, and 60% better than stock commuting tires. 

Also, I know I don't post here as much these days, but I still try to keep up on things. You seem like you're more into the go-fasty side of life (nothing wrong with that, just an observation and different than what I want out of life). I think while the Clem is great for me, you might prefer the Joe to the Clem still. While it's true the Clem is capable of being my fastest ride, I'm hardly good at going fast in the first place, so, that might oversell it a bit for some contexts. Numbers-wise, my best average for a 7.2 mile commute with frequent stops is 16mph on it. My average is 12-13, with a good strong headwind 10-11 on the Clem. In the faux-pas of Rivdom, as pictured in the first image with my usual two bags and all my commuting gear, it weighs in right around 49 pounds. So, I stand by it rides much lighter than it is, and I love it for that, but I have a very hard time keeping a cruising speed on a flat of more than about 18mph, and with a tailwind or a moderate downgrade about 23mph usually. I don't know how those compare for you, just some numbers for a group that's more into them. On my fifty mile rides the average speed always pegs in closer to the 10mph end when I check the computer. But, it's rare for me to ride a bike tipping the scales lighter than 30 pounds. I probably over-build too much, but I like having every tool I need to restore the bike to rideable on me because some parts of my commute put me out of easy rescue and not in great neighborhoods. The last time I rode a bike under 30pounds (the Fuji when I put it back to stock to sell to a friend) it was fun, but I felt really unprepared for things, and I had a real problem at stops where I was used to accelerating a heavier bike and I kept jumping the front wheel off the ground. So, take my comments on the Clem's speed well within the context of me being a guy good at acceleration, bad at top end, and preferring something that carries the kitchen sink, yeah? ')

And, I want to like drops bars. I know there are a zillion, and somewhere out there has to be The One For Me. But I also find most upright bars much more forgiving of being slightly off, and they tend to be much wider which is great for control at slow traffic speeds. Plus, I find stretching out more naturally than bending down for an aero-stance. So, for now, I'm an upright bar guy, but someday when I have a bike with an appropriate top tube length and the desire to spend the money swapping around bars to really get the feel for what I like in drops... well, I'm not exactlt forswearing them. I just find uprights more forgiving in tolerances and better for for going slow, which I do more of than going fast.

[Joe Bernard]

I'm supposedly long done with dropbars, but my experience at RBW HQ today has me reconsidering. I was there for the Bike Snob Book Talk, and got to ride a Roadeo and Appaloosa. Both had drops - a standard bend and Noodle, respectively - and I loved them! I also loved the 105 brifters on the Roadeo, which was quite a shock. Of course this could all change on a proper ride longer than the Riv Industrial Parking Lot, but now I'm tempted to stretch my CLEM deposit to a dropbar Appa. Oy!

[René Sterental]

Zed, your speeds described on your loaded Clem are still higher than mine in my minimally loaded Homer! I guess I still carry the weight on me that you put in the bike, and probably my total bike + rider weight is still higher. 

Which just reinforces the futility of discussing bike weight and paying premium for a few savings in bike weight while disregarding the rider's weight. 

I can only keep trying to make myself lighter vs making my bikes lighter. 

Kudos on your review and comments!

René 

On Saturday, June 18, 2016, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm supposedly long done with dropbars, but my experience at RBW HQ today has me reconsidering. I was there for the Bike Snob Book Talk, and got to ride a Roadeo and Appaloosa. Both had drops - a standard bend and Noodle, respectively - and I loved them! I also loved the 105 brifters on the Roadeo, which was quite a shock. Of course this could all change on a proper ride longer than the Riv Industrial Parking Lot, but now I'm tempted to stretch my CLEM deposit to a dropbar Appa. Oy!

[Patrick Moore]

chuffed

CHəft/

adjective

BRITISHinformal

1. very pleased.

   "I'm dead chuffed to have won"

Zed -- sure, your JA is loaded down and won't be as fast as a sub 20 lb bike, but what has struck me in recent reviews that riders report that it feels nimble and fast -- while being supremely comfortable. 

You may well be right about drops needing very careful placement, more so than upright bars. I've ridden many different uprights, but never used them long enough to discern a pattern.

Anyway, your review is a model of information -- thanks again.

Patrick Moore, who just now was once again surprised by how comfortable Riv Road #3 is with Compass Maes Parallel drops (and Compass Elk Pass tires).

[Zed Martinez]

I gotta stop repyling to these things after a certain time of night ;) Thanks for the grammar reminder. I think I meant people being chafed by the idea of liners, and then I read your other post and my typing took a detour on me. 

[KevinS]

It's good to hear some of us Clem owners speaking up. I have a 59 Grey and absolutely love it. It's such a pleasure to ride. At first it felt large but now I realize that my others bikes were just a little small (PBH 90cm). For a large bike it sure feels fast. I keep asking myself what else could I possibly need in a bike? As much as I like the other Riv models the Clem provides me with everything I need. I love the Hunq but how different is it really?
I will admit that I didn't give the Bosco Bars a chance. In fact I'm going to sell them if anyone is interested. I'm such a fan of the Albatross that I needed them on my Clem. They are a great fit if anyone is looking for an alternative to the Bosco. I also traded out to Bar End shifters. Guess I'm a bit of a traditionalist.
Thanks Zed for your thoughtful review. I'm looking forward to your next post, and anyone else that writes about this great bike!

[Joe Bernard]

I rode a 52 with Boscos at RBW on Saturday, and it fit like a glove. So much so that getting back on my 45 yesterday proved I guessed wrong on size. It fits well enough with the Choco-Moose bars as an "upright bike", but on the 52 I had a lot more room to sit upright at the ends, or stretch forward to the front of the Boscos. Live and learn!

[Jeremy Tavan]

The thing I really love about the Clem is how well it fits me, which most "normal" factory bikes do not. The long top tube, intended to make it work well with swept-back bars I assume, means that with less-swept-back bars, I can get a fit that works for me as a short-legged, long-torso individual. It seems like such a minor thing, but it's been a revelation to just sit on a bike and have everything fall where it ought to. I've been riding my Clem almost exclusively for the last month and a half, and it's just been a joy. I'm still tinkering to figure out the right combination of attachments to really bring out the spirit of the bike, and it's made harder by it being just so darn flexible. Too many options!

/Jeremy

[El Sapo]

Great post Zed. I love the boscos. Took your advice and bought compass tires and they are great. For me the Clem is just a perfect bike. I'm busy adding my own personal touches, but the feel of the bike is special. I think it's an iconic bike. It seems like the things Grant wanted to do with a bike? The Clem has them all. It defies the norm, but in a way that pays tribute to great bikes of the past. 

[Deacon Patrick]

Question for those of you with Clem/entine Boscos:

What hand positions do you use for what situations?

My daughters ride nearly all the time in the full upright position. They can switch and have tried other hand positions, but find it disconcerting to do so. They are still growing into the frame (a medium and they are at the upper end of small in sizing now), so that could be contributing to their discomfort in the two forward positions. They describe the near the stem forward position as very twitchy (at it looks it). 

With abandon,

Patrick

[Zed Martinez]

Hey Patrick. I have a picture here for reference: https://www.flickr.com/photos/zedmartinez/25692901481/

I use the usual primary grip area on mine for slow, casual, or street riding. When I'm at crusing speed, I use the bend with the knobs. I am 100% certain I would not enjoy using that grip without them, because I would be constantly sliding forwards and that'd be hard on my forearm muscles. On top of the brake lever clamp is a nice inbetween I use sometimes to change what part of my hand is getting pressure, and I find I can rotate my hands closer to the tops of the bar and not the sides while I'm there, which can give my wrists a break. At the stem I prefer as wide as I can get with the outer blades of my hands sitting against the rises.

It's worth pointing out that I'm only using a 10cm quill. I think if I had the extra 2cm the bullmoose does I would find the knobs/flats grips too far away for me to really maximize their comfort. There was definitely a point in the adjustment where they were too far away (oddly because they were too high at that time) and they didn't speak to me at all. I guess I could add to the criticisms of the complete Clem package that the bullmoose negates the benefit of the long TT in letting you dial in the reach with a stem, and locks you in to only doing it by height which does have the side effect of making the primary grip the only one that might be fully comfortable for some riders and adjustments, where as a Bosco plus separate stem would let the reach be dialed in independent of the height, or rather in tandem with it.

[Deacon Patrick]

Thanks, Zed!

With abandon,

Patrick

[Zed Martinez]

OK, I remembered how to set my camera for intervals and once the lens cleared up because dang it's humid out there, I got some shots of 1) my setup as close to proper Riv non-wide angle level as I could in a hurry, so you can see my relationship of saddle and stem height and all that goodness for how I like the Boscos dialed in. 2) Me riding in the main upright grip 3) Me on the knobs and 4) me on the flats with a little tuck going on. 4 was hard to to time and show me in the posture I tend to be in but also centered right in the frame. 

http://zedmartinez.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/boooooscos.jpg

I think using Thorn's posture system because it's my favorite being independent of bar type as it is, that give me Very Relaxed, Relaxed, and Fairly Sporty maybe as my 3 main postures? http://zedmartinez.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/CapturFiles-201606174_1806.png

Patrick, I would say pondering it as I took these photos and on my ride home, I think for that last one to work I need the Boscos closer and lower. That's basically a flat bar stance and so far I've always found that to be most comfortable when the stem clamp is at or below the saddle height, and with a longer stem I would need it to be a couple inches higher than the saddle to get the same reach, and by that point I find I'm sticking my arms more straight out and my triceps get really tired, I need to be able to lean my weight down onto the bar in that stance for it to really get comfortable for me. 

I will also say it's pretty narrow and not great for accelerating from a stop, at stops I'll bounce up into the primary grip and then usually accelerate from the bends/knobs because I can curl my fingers around there very naturally and pull up some on the bar to keep me ground as I mash if I choose to do so standing on the pedals as opposed to spinning up. If I'm spinning up I'll stay in the primary grip where I can shift faster. 

Hope any of that helps anyone any.

[Joe Bernard]

Patrick The Deacon, I rode a 52 Clem last Saturday at RBW on that ride I bonked out of. This was a faster ride than my normal style (slowish with a dose of slower), so I took advantage of all that space to get forward over the bars for hard pedaling. I alternated between the sit-back position at the grips, and grabbing the bare bar on top right at the part where it starts to curve down..it's almost a 'road-brake hoods' position. They were both effective options, and the reach was so different that it left the illusion of riding a bike with two handlebars.

This didn't work for me on my not-as-long 45 Clem because there was just too much reach with Boscos, but it was perfect on the 52. I hope that helps.

[WETH]

Zed,
This is an incredibly helpful and useful post! Thank you. You have convinced me to get those bars. Thanks!
Erl

[Mark in Beacon]

Cool pix. Relaxed, Very Relaxed, Fairly Sporty. Sounds like shopping for jeans! I still get confused, but that's another story.

I have the stock Bosco Bullmoose Bars featuring the stock, complete build grips. I moved the bars up and down a bit  once or twice and they seem fine about where they ended up, though a little higher or lower would probably be okay as well.

Like 'em a lot. I ride holding the grips with my pointer finger wrapped around the brake 78%, full regular grip 20%, and out in front but with thumbs kinda hooked into the corner made by the bullmoose 2%. I rode most of the way across the bridge on the way home in this last position (except when passing people) which also has the meat of the palms resting partially on the Vs (slight variation: thumbs out of corner, aligned with fingers, hands slightly further from center, running up against the rise). A fun change and fast, rotates my hip nicely and helps the legs really pump. I also change my body relationship to the bars by standing, and by microshifts on the saddle (went from a Brooks Flyer over to a VO Mod 8 during the recent sale, digging it so far, apparently I like the extra rear estate).

I like the angle the bars are set at just fine. I'm not overly picky about these things in general. Lucky for me my body usually adjusts quite nicely and I'm good to go. I could clear a third/fourth position I guess by shifting my bell and mirror (shifters are on the stem) but I don't have a need. Maybe if I were doing a century? As it is, I can pedal along regular, or stand a minute and throw 'em around a bit, or do the lean forward time-trial-y thing--it's all good and pretty much natural. The Clementine is a big, beefy, substantial bike, and the Bosco Bulls do a good job of wrangling it. Kinda like they were made for each other. Which in fact they were! Nice how that works.

Patrick, I think the twitchy thing is, they are riding a big bike (can't recall if theirs have front racks/baskets?) and their upper bodies are not fully matured, so going closer to the steering axis, combined with leaning forward, is going to be maybe a little hard to control for them. I would guess they will grow into an alternate position or two, but in any case, just because one uses mostly a single basic grip does not mean you'll go numb or strained, the body finds ways to shift things. Even the difference between a finger around the brake bracket and the five-finger grip puts muscles in a whole different posture. As does standing, or turning, etc. Sometimes I'll just concentrate on an aligned spinal posture, drop the shoulders and elbows, and that creates a difference right there. My grandmother's brother rode a bicycle all day for most of his life delivering the mail in rural Ireland with a basic upright handlebar (more of an Albatross than a Bosco).

On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 4:46:00 PM UTC-4, Zed Martinez wrote:

Hey Patrick. I have a picture here for reference: https://www.flickr.com/photos/zedmartinez/25692901481/

[Tim Wood]

Hi Zed! Thanks for this write up, it made me appreciate my Clem more than I already do! If possible. This bike is such a great ride, no matter how you set it up. That being said I wish I shared your same experience with front end loads as I experience some shimmy with a Nitto big front and wald basket. I recently removed the rack and am currently rocking only a saddle bag and I am enjoying the un-weighted front end handling. After reading your review I'm really curious about running more supple tires as they relate to speed as I feel the stock kendas are holding me back. But all in all I share a lot of the experiences you write about, good job.

Tim

[El Sapo]

Mark, I understand what you're saying about your hand placement. With me, I have the stock grips and in my "normal" riding position, my hands are in front of the grips. The brake clamp bolt is under my palms most of the time. That's right about the middle of the gripping area. Sliding my hands forward from there for a sportier feel or for riding into the wind, and moving them back on the grips for more upright riding.

At some point I'm going to clean that gripping area up. Get a different brake that doesn't have a bolt placed up top, ditch the grips and wrap the bars all the way to the downturn with the same material. Grant suggested that I move the shift levers forward onto the downturn but they don't bother my hands where they are. 

That's a cool picture of the postman. Those old style brakes kept the handlebar grip area clear of clamps/mounting devices. Hummmm.   

[Jason Fuller]

Zed, 

Your record-breakingly thorough review of the Clem continues to be enlightening, as I only just found it yesterday!  After falling hard for my Hillborne, I got to daydreaming about replacing my vintage MTB commuter with a Clem H.  What struck me especially is that the 52 ended up being a bit too large, since I'm almost identical size to you (80.5 pbh, 5' 8.5") which, despite the >800mm standover and >600mm top tube, lands squarely in the middle of their recommendation for a 52.  It did sound huge on paper.  I wish, and I imagine you wish too, that there was a ~49cm frame!  

Jason  

[Zed Martinez]

Jason, I think it's my riding style. To get the bars where I'm most comfortable on the bigger Clem involved having them slammed, and then for some like the VO Crazy Bars I like I'd've needed a fairly shorty stem. I've looked at the two sizes and setups on paper a few times since I switched and I think I could just have shrunk the 52 down like I just barely stretched the 45 up. I've grown to like the smaller one though, for many reasons. It fits better through doors, more room for my handlebar bag (a must for carrying a camera around) and for my saddle bag, easier to fit in the car if I meet up with the wife and we go do something that needs driving together, etc. And, i still have it in my head it looks a little small while I'm riding it (maybe a holdover from getting used to seeing the genuinely limo-like size of the 52, when I took the 45 in for a fitting at the beginning of the year my fitter was astounded it was the smallest one...), it fits me perfectly and I don't think I've had a better year of riding. Heck, not two days ago I rode it 7 miles into a 30mph headwind gusting up to 36mph and didn't feel any discomfort the whole time. I think a couple more intermediate sizes would probably help, I agree, for people in those overlap areas currently to have more latitude when building the Clem up. I'm about maxed out with a 130mm stem and that works fine for Crazy Bars but I'd need something silly like a 150mm to try Billies again...

If it worked, I attached a pic someone sent me on Instagram where they actually saw me out in the wild on the little Clem...