Wisdom or Cowardice, how fast to go downhill?

[Michael Hechmer]

I'm not a particularly anxious person, although I do get anxious when someone compliments my courage!  I regularly downhill at 40+ mph and have hit 50 on good pavement and reasonably straight mountain descents without too much anxiety, but one hill this year has me spooked.

One of my favorite routes is a 23 mile ride with 1400 feet of climbing that is equally divided among lightly traveled & good dirt roads, mostly descent chip & seal town roads, and a third of moderately traveled state roads.  It provides beautiful pastoral scenery, a good view of the whole of the Mt. Mansfield ridge line, and a stretch along the Lamoille River, including the impressive Fairfax Falls. In the past I have always ridden it counter clockwise, which includes a beast of a 3K climb, including a K of 20%+ grade right in the middle.  This year I reversed direction and have been riding it clockwise on my Rambouillet, with a very nice set of Grand Bois Cerf tires.  The first time down it I discovered the pavement on the steepest section was not in good condition, no pot holes or heaves, just lots of broken chip and seal.  The bumping was quite dramatic and I felt like one good hole could toss me over the handle bars.  Garmin was showing 47.5 when I lightly squeezed the rear brake.  Fortunately the Paul's Racers have excellent modulation and I safely slowed enough to feel OK.

But when I got to the bottom I asked myself why I chickened out, since I was just fine, and thought that the next time I would lay off the brakes.  But this hasn't happened.  Instead each time I have gone down it, I have gone slower and slower.  Today I took out my Trek, which has 32 mm TServes to see if I would feel more comfortable at higher speeds with the softer tire.  But when I got to the top of the hill I realized I had no real taste for the experiment.  I went down at 25, until I could see the good pavement at the bottom and then I let it roll out to 39.

So I ask myself, is this wisdom, or just yielding to irrational anxiety.

Michael

Westford, VT

[Kenneth Stagg]

I'll vote for wisdom. If you don't feel comfortable with the speed on
a particular section of road then take it slow there. Discretion,
valor and all of that. A rough road will have me taking it easy every
time even though I'm running medium pressure 26x1.5s. I surely love
flying down a decent road, though :)

-Ken

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[PATRICK MOORE]

My principle is, always yield to your anxieties. Really, from so much
fixed gear riding, my descending skills, never very good, are now
pretty atrophied -- hell, on the steepest downhills I go slower on the
fixies than I do on level ground.

I've hit 50 on a steep, long downhill straight with a howling tailwind
(on knobbies -- on the flat, a cardboard box was pacing me thanks to
the wind) but last year I nearly bought the farm when I decided to let
it all hang out on a very steep, winding 4/10 mile downhill riding the
Fargo with flaccid Big Apples. Just at the sharpest bend, the rear
sidewall began to tuck under a bit, a danger I compounded by squeezing
the - powerful disk - rear brake. Fortunately my fantastic recovery
skills ( or my guardian angel) kept me from ploughing into the curb at
37 mph.

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"Push back against the age as hard as it pushes against you."

Flannery O'Connor

-------------------------
Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
-------------------------

[Will]

Intuition is a good thing. Listen to it.

[Joe Bernard]

40-50mph is motorcycle speed, which those guys/gals are running in full leathers and a full-face helmet (the smart ones, anyway). I've rarely exceeded 35 on a bicycle, and am in no hurry to do it again soon. A little slower is still fun.

 

Joe "where ya goin in such a hurry, boy" Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[Zack]

I am a "better safe than sorry" type, rather than a "throw caution to the wind" type.

Good to see lots of people share that approach.  I want all of you to be riding in good health for a long time :-)

[dougP]

Here's a vote for wisdom. You paint a picture of a beautiful area to
ride in; why hurry? And the results of a crash at the speeds you
describe are painful at the least and involve a long time off the
bike. If that's not enough, consider damage to the bike.

There's a reason those downhill racers wear all the protective gear
plus motorcycle helmets.

dougP

[Peter Morgano]

I can remember coming down from High Point NJ with my dad, a ride we made a few times a year since the views and trails up there were awesome. Coming back one time I hit about 45mph before one of those tour vans came around the corner on our side of the road, I swerved and missed it but lost control of the front of the bike and went flying. Long story short i was banged up but able to ride. This was unfortunately in the days before cell phones but luckily I was able to bang the bike and wheels (Steel Trek) back into shape and get home. This touches on my pretty firm disagreement with Grant on helmet.  I kept that helmet for years to remind me of what would have been my head, it was cracked from end to end with rocks gouged an inch deep into it.  Now when I go down big descents I make sure I have line of sight and rairly top out over 30mph.

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[Joe Bernard]

In fairness to Grant re: the helmet issue, I've seen him headed up Mt. Diablo with one strapped to the bars. It's safe to assume it's not still on the bars on the way down..

[Peter Morgano]

Oh I am not one to harp on people for not wearing one but I treat mine like  seatbelt, i just strap it on before I go out. I am not sure what the big deal is about wearing a helmet though. Back in the day they sucked and made you sweat like crazy but these new ones are nice and Airy although maybe not "cool"  but that is the least of my concerns when I am out riding. I do make my daughter wear one but again just treat it like part of the routine so as to not make it a "thing."  Everyone else in the whole world can wear one or not as far as I am concerned.

On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

In fairness to Grant re: the helmet issue, I've seen him headed up Mt. Diablo with one strapped to the bars. It's safe to assume it's not still on the bars on the way down..

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[Steve Palincsar]

On Fri, 2012-07-13 at 07:53 -0700, Michael Hechmer wrote:
> So I ask myself, is this wisdom, or just yielding to irrational
> anxiety.

wisdom

[Michael Hechmer]

On Friday, July 13, 2012 11:14:33 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

 

. Fortunately my fantastic recovery
skills ( or my guardian angel) kept me from ploughing into the curb at
37 mph.

Patrick, your comments about angels reminds me of two rides  I have done down the Appalachian Gap road.  It starts off very steeply then settles into  a 10-14 % grade, with  four or five hairpin switchbacks.  I went up there, about 40 up hill miles from my home, the first time I got my Rambouillet on the road.  I was having an exhilarating ride down,  using the whole road, when a voice said, "Michael, this is nuts, you have no idea what's around the next corner.  I took the next turn slower and close to the inside line.  Sure enough the rare car came up and around the next turn.  

    

   The next time I rode to that top was to see the conclusion of the Green Mountain Stage Race on a cold, dank Sept. day.  After the race I pulled on a rain jacket and headed down the mountain, just behind a guy on a CF racing frame, in a lycra kit.  He was flying and I decided not to try to stay with him through the turns, then sprinted to catch his wheel on the straight downhill sections.  Finally we both turned off onto the 2-3% grade for the 10 miles into Richmond.  The rider turned out to be Bill Sorrell, Vermont's AG.  He was an old mountain biker and new to  road riding, but he sure could go downhill!  We had a great conversation about a couple of hi profile cases I was especially interested in.

BTW,  about downhill speed in general....except in the mountains most of VT is rolling hills, and the best way to survive is through sheer aggression,  barrel downhill and hope your momentum will carry you over the next hill.  That said, I can't dispute all those who advocate for the wisdom of a little fear.

After three years on the tandem I finally discovered my wife's screaming didn't mean she was having an orgasm!  But in reality I never let it all out on a road I don't know completely by heart.

So, yes, i definitely believe in angels.

Michael

[René Sterental]

I think it's your bike computer not being able to keep track of the wheel revolutions and just not displaying the actual value of how much fun that ride is... keep the bike computer out of loyalty for its otherwise faithful service and keep your eye out for a funometer computer to provide those really high numbers that describe the exhilaration of your descents.

 

Otherwise I think you're just being wise, which is simply an abbreviation of cowardice hinged around the "w"... :-)

 

Coincidentally, all my bike computers and GPS units share the same mysterious bug on my descents... :-)

 

René

[jimD]

Well, that old saying, 'discretion is the better part of valor' works for me in situations like this.

Anxiety is the enemy of stability. 

I know about this more from skiing than I do from cycling.

If I feel in control and and am calm I'm more stable than when I'm anxious.

I'm a lot happier exploring this boundary on skis than on bikes. Exceeding the envelope is generally less destructive

and painful on skis and snow than it is on bikes and tarmac.

Thinking about it in terms of chicken or brave is a counterproductive path for me.

If things are feeling squirrely, they probably are.

-JimD

…how I roll, or slide.

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[jimD]

It strikes me that misunderstanding the  nature of the stoker's screaming could have serious ramifications for domestic bliss.

That's funny!

-JimD

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[Eric Platt]

Will join in and say it's wisdom.  Especially given a 20 percent grade and poor pavement at that point.  One or the other, maybe fear, both together, preserving one's hide.

 

Not sure I've evern been above 40 mph.  Aren't a lot of hills in this area long and/or steep enough.  Might want to try a higher speed someday, but I start getting a mental picture of an elephant on a kids bike and that will keep me in check.

 

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

[Thomas Lynn Skean]

Goodness me! I know some people dig that sort of thing. Go for it! But if you see *me* going 40mph, call the authorities! It'll mean I've lost control of my bike, body, and mind. Without intervention, tragedy will ensue.

Since you asked... I'd say "wisdom".

Yours,
Thomas Lynn Skean

[Joe Bernard]

I did 45 on a long-wheelbase recumbent. It was disturbingly uneventful. That chopper position and huge distance between the wheels makes for a pretty serene experience at high speed. When I glanced at the speedo and saw that number, I realized this might be a good time to start dragging them brakes a bit..

[Bill M.]

On a truly long and steep descent, trying to come down too slowly has its own peril - overheated rims and blown tires.  Letting the bike roll out some allows some energy to be dissipated by the wind, sparing the brakes for when they are really needed.  It can be a fine line between over-braking and under-braking.  At some point wisdom would have you stop to let the rims cool.  

Bill

Stockton, CA

[Kenneth Stagg]

Or use disks. That's one of the reasons we got disks on the new
tandem, though I still alternate front/rear to allow the disks
themselves to cool.

It's been interesting to see how people limit their speeds. I do if
I'm unsure of the road but if it's a nice, visible road with no cross
traffic I tend to let it roll. We've hit 50+ on the tandem a couple
of time (on Tour de Blast we actually used the disk as a light drag
because there were state patrolmen around and they were rumored to
ticket cyclists breaking 55mph - which would be insanely easy coming
down from Johnson ridge on a tandem!) Cindy has been fine with it, in
fact I sometimes keep it slower than she would like since I have a
better idea of the handling/stopping abilities of the big bike.

-Ken

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[Michael Hechmer]

My strategy, when i want to slow down while going down, is to pump the rear brake.  This minimizes the chance of locking up, provides some cooling and keeps the powerful front brake in reserve,  So far so good.

I do appreciate all those who have posted that caution trumps adrenalin rushes on down hills.  I have decided to revert to my old routine of riding this route counter clockwise, dealing with the tough uphill and enjoying the fast but relaxing downhill on the other side.

Spent three hours out in the canoe on Lake Eden today.  Gad zooks it's hot out there.

Michael

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[Cyclofiend]

At the risk of sounding all touchy-feely-west-coasty, if you don't
"feel" it, that's a huge warning sign.

For example, there's this little widget section on the nearby
singletrack where things got rooty and rocky with last winter's rains.
I've ridden and cleared that section year after year on a wide variety
of bikes. But this spring after a long time off that trail, I was
tootling around on the Quickbeam (running fixed )and made the corner
and things just felt off - didn't feel settled on the bike, felt off
line and was looking at the problems rather than the line.

I pulled up, braked and walked. And since then I've hoofed it over
that section. Been riding too many road miles and just not feeling
that settled. That is making me overthink things and until my brain
just shuts up on the approach, I'll probably continue to hoof it.

I think my point is that the flow - whether on a trail or road is
something you have to feel. If you are looking forward to the next
turn or drop or tricky bit, and you can relax enough to let your
technique kick in, you are much, much better off than tightening up,
fighting the bike, the road surface and your fight/flight response.

Around here, there are always climbs and descents. Today was
reasonably flat circuit, but somewhere in there, my gadget tells me I
hit 37 mph (and just to be clear, I lack the engine to do that on the
flats). But, on the Hlsen, on the pavement, on the Jack Browns, on a
bike that is dusty but mechanically happy, it never felt like I was
pushing it.

In my experience, that moment when you feel out of sorts is a very
tricky time. The real risk is overcorrecting - grabbing a handful of
brake or stiffening up can make a whole bunch of bad things happen
very, very quickly. Your experience and your momentum will actually
get you through most "problems", but you need to be processing things
with no delay.

Hope that makes some sense.

- Jim / Cyclofiend.com / cyclo...@gmail.com

[jimD]

Well said!
-JImD

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[charlie]

Did 49 mph on my V2 recumbent and glanced down to see my speed nudging the bars slightly which moved me ten feet towards the center of a two lane highway. Glad there were no cars coming up behind me at 60mph. Also did an estimated 50-55 mph on a long steep downhill and a truck pulled out at the base of said hill, forcing me to brake........ye olde rim brakes faded into nothingness causing my life to flash before me.......I cleared his back bumper just in time going about 30 mph and resolved to be more conservative from then on. Most hills are under 40 mph (coasting) and more like 30 mph max. Still the thought of hitting chip seal with a t-shirt and shorts at that speed is pretty grim....older, wiser I'd say.

On Friday, July 13, 2012 7:53:40 AM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:

[ascpgh]

Ah, the late '80s and early '90s. I rode a loop in Arkansas fairly often that went from Ponca on the Buffalo River to Jasper, then Just short of Harrison and back to Ponca? Logged here by other start/stop riders, I always began in Ponca with Mt. Sherman in my face, climbing the switchbacks into the morning sun. The real excitement came hours later with the descent back into Ponca. I learned the road and grew confident of the ride down off the Ozark plateau. Even toyed with varying my speed by riding on the paint stripe and back to the Tarmac. 55 possible? On my old red RB-1 (Ultegra 36h hubs I laced to Open 4 CDs With Michelin 28s) I rode this circuit everal times a year. I built my bike and trusted it. No marks, no fouls.

South Colorado, 2001, riding my Rambouillet along the Trans Am Western Express, ultra light, my back tire lost its air just slower than a blow out on a chip topped road with some winding downhill eases and my options grew fewer as the PSI fell and the next curve came. I finally took one turns to be able to brake in a straight line long enough on the flaccid tire and tube to get down in speed while still on the bike. Nice idea, not what happened. I yawed widely on the slack rear tire to the point that I was almost sideways. Speed and some semblance of grip presented itself and I flew over the bars, cartwheeling slowly forward, landing on the ugly road surface with my head, my left shoulder blade and elbow.

I got up and dragged my bike out of the road so I must have been OK. I changed my rear tube and one of my colleagues' rear tubes my shoulder slipping out of alignment each pump stroke. It was separated, all the way

One of the others noted my visible injury and I said I was riding to the next town (our destination anyway) and got up on my bike which faired pretty well given the violence of my dissipation of velocity on this surface.

Speed is the engine of injury, no doubt. But it sure is a fun test of equipment you know. Just have to keep some contingent thought available to handle the what-ifs.