FS-59 cm Clem Smith Jr H, green, with apologies to GP

[alan lavine]

Hi All,

It pains me to do this, but its become apparent that I purchased the wrong bike.  I should have gotten the Cheviot for the kind of riding I use this for.

This is a stock build Clem with less than 100 miles tops, used only on pavement in NYC, primarily to take the grandkids for rides on the greenway.  I got it  on pre-order so that was $1200, right, or  $1300 ??  Not looking to make a profit just get the right bike for the job.  A few scratches on the seat tube when I was mounting the rack, otherwise mint.

Make a reasonable offer, discount for local pickup, as I hate to pack up a bike (even though I do it well).

It is a fine bike, as you all know.

Alan

NYC

[Mark in Beacon]

Alan,--why a Cheviot and not a Clementine, aka Clem Smith Jr. L? Maybe someone would swap their  L for your H? I have an L, and it is more step-through than, and at least as townie, kid-friendly, road, path, and trail capable as my Cheviot style mixte build.  Fits a wider range of riders but still the same price as the Clem H.

[Alan Lavine]

Hi Mark,

I live in an apartment in Manhattan and I find the Clem is a large bike for our elevators and a little inconvenient to keep in an apartment, so I was thinking that a more “standard” sized bike would be easier to deal with. The step through feature is easier when carrying a child on the rear of the bike.

That said, I’m willing to try it if anyone wants to swap their L for my H

Alan

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 04/14/2016 07:18 AM, Alan Lavine wrote:

Hi Mark,

I live in an apartment in Manhattan and I find the Clem is a large bike for our elevators

The way you get a tandem into an elevator is to rear is up vertically, rolling on the back wheel and letting the front wheel flop over sideways.  The Clem can't possibly be longer than a tandem.

[Justin August]

Don't forget that the Cheviot also has an extended wheelbase. I don't know the precise numbers but it is longer than the Betty Foys for sure.

-Justin

[Edwin W]

Steve,

That is how you CAN fit a bike into an elevator, but I know that just rolling into an elevator is much easier than tilting it up each time. Especially if it is like my bikes: loaded down with bags and doo dads and long fenders in the rear. And I don't even have the super cool Velo Lumino rear fender light. Not that you would be rolling it THAT far back, but it sure is a pretty light.

But yes, that is a good tip if you need to. 

Edwin

[Mark in Beacon]

Yes, the step-through is great for rear child seats and lots of other town riding situations. Another plus the Clem L has is a nice low bar, whereas the large Cheviot is pretty up there and will require more of a lean. And as Justin points out, the Chev is also a long wheelbase bike. I hear you regarding this, as I live in a 3rd floor walkup with narrow stairs and a nice turn into the door, and the Clementine, even in my 52 size, is not really an apartment sized dog, unless you have a nice freight elevator.

Since the Cheviot is not different enough from my current mixte, I justified the Clem's wider tires and real low step-through and rackability to pull the trigger. While mixtes now have a much greater acceptance as a coed vehicle, that does not apply as much to the step through styles like Clementine. Getting mine in black helped mitigate that perception ever so slightly. It was interesting to see the beautiful Clementine in Turquoise dressed up in white Hetres and a mod seat in the thread about the auction. The exact same bike, size and all, but a whole different vibe than my all-black setup.

Topic shift ahead

While we're on this subject, a recent Riv post mentioned again that the new batch of Clems will no longer designate the L model as Clementine, apparently due to backlash from people of both sexes offended that it promotes some sort of "girls bike" stereotype.  The great thing about the Clem is that there is both a girl and boy form of the same name, unlike the Wilbury/Glorious or Betty Foy/Yves Gomez (which, to further confuse the issue, are basically different names for the same bike model.) In a number of languages, various objects are even permanently designated feminine or masculine. At least the Sam can go either way these days...then there is the whole sheep names thing, not sure what shepherds think about all that.

I get when people are upset about certain names being in public use that are derogatory to a whole group. The issue surrounding sport team names and Native Americans is a prime example. But I don't quite get the outrage regarding bicycle names and styles. Of course total the man up thing to do would be to call the bike Clementine Smith Jr. and use H and L designations with that name, but I know this is not faithful to the story of origin. All I will say is I am glad mine says Clementine, and I ride it with gender neutral pride. Someone recently mentioned "iconic" in relation to the Clems; I consider the L version to be the truly iconic model.

Sorry to Alan for veering off here, but though it could stand on its own, it kind of is an outgrowth of this conversation and hopefully makes at least a little sense in this context.

[jeffrey kane]

Alan, you've generated many a reply here -- none more accurate than the ones warning you of the overall length (and height) of a Cheviot. I can attest to this as the one I built for my wife barely fits in the back of our Volvo XC/70, which, has easily digested Bleriot's, Saluki's and a number of other bikes as well. I suppose this is the trade-off for Riv;s current crop of long chain stay bikes ... they tend to push the limits of fork mounted roof racks, as well. Of course, there are always  work-arounds for most things in life, so a slightly longer bike isn't the end of the world ... but I'm glad I'm not squeezing the Chev into my NYC elevator and apt. on a regular basis all the same.

On Wednesday, April 13, 2016 at 1:16:02 PM UTC-4, alan lavine wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

What is wrong with "girls' bikes"? (That question is general, not directed to Mark.) That seems a strange thing to twist knickers. (Male and female knickers, that is.)

I personally have no use for a drop frame bicycle -- well, if I had a dedicated, short distance grocery bike, I'd probably prefer one of these and, come to think of it, my erstwhile hot rodded Worksman tricycle was a drop frame. But I certainly would not feel it a slight to my honor to ride one; even a pink one; hell, even a pink one with white saddle and flowered basket -- I used to ride my daughter's Electra. Again, I just find it very strange that people get so het up about such little things.

I should think a drop frame woman's model, made for riding in skirts, might fill a very good city bike niche somewhere.

[Mark in Beacon]

The knicker-twisting was not about the drop frame itself, but that it was given a "girl's" name, and therefore perpetuated (harmful, offensive, presumptive, restricting??) stereotypes about...not sure what. In any case, Clementine the fruit is named after Brother Clément Rodier, with the feminine noun -ine suffix meaning of or from, So there you go, a bit of both. But not a mixte.

[Patrick Moore]

It's still puzzling; why is a girl's name offensive? Beats me! Weird.

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[Garth]

   When I hear Clementine I only think of the fruit !  I don't know anyone named Clementine and have no one to associate it with , but the fruit , Yes !  I love 'em ! 


So just how long overall is a 59 Clem or 60 Chev anyways ?

[alan lavine]

Well, this has become an interesting thread, hasn't it?  We've gone from too-big bikes to knickers!  Boxers or briefs, y'all?

I appreciate all the comments posted about the original issue.  In particular, its useful to know that the Cheviot will not necessarily solve the problem.  To be clear, I am able to get the Clem into the elevator without lifting one end, but it leaves room for only 1 other person.  It's doable, but not convenient.

So I'm still interested in alternatives and want to sell the Clem.  Is there no one who wants the Clem at a steep discount?!?  FleaBay is my last resort option and I'd be more inclined to take less from a list member.  Warm weather is coming, so lets talk.

Thanks again.

Alan

On Wednesday, April 13, 2016 at 1:16:02 PM UTC-4, alan lavine wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

Alan, after you sell you might want to look into a 20-inch-wheel bike like Bike Friday. It has the low step-over of mixtes, and will be much easier to fit in an elevator and apartment. Of course it folds, too, if you really want to shrink it down, but I usually don't use that feature with mine. For me it's a compact, easy to mount handmade American bicycle which handles like a "big" one, with the added benefit of folding if I ever need that feature.

[Mark in Beacon]

The 60 Chev has a 54cm chainstay, the 59 Clementine a 56cm. When I was looking into the Cheviot, Keven said the large was only a few inches shy of the wheelbase on the shop Big Dummy. These bikes can present a bit of a challenge for some apartment situations or other tight arrangements, but I think well worth any inconvenience as they are fantastic town vehicles. Sorry to start the thread drift, Alan. Good luck. And Go Riv if you can!

[Steve Palincsar]

On 04/15/2016 12:43 AM, Joe Bernard wrote:

Alan, after you sell you might want to look into a 20-inch-wheel bike like Bike Friday. It has the low step-over of mixtes, and will be much easier to fit in an elevator and apartment. Of course it folds, too, if you really want to shrink it down, but I usually don't use that feature with mine. For me it's a compact, easy to mount handmade American bicycle which handles like a "big" one, with the added benefit of folding if I ever need that feature. 

And if you want full suspension with that and have an ample budget, consider a Moulton.


Your choice of 17" or 20" wheel models (the one shown above is 20" 406) and they come apart in the middle into two pieces.  The small wheels make them significantly easier to maneuver in tight spaces, and it takes well under a minute to separate the frame.

[Patrick Moore]

I prefer taking the Hon Solo (20" wheels) to the grocery store because it is easier to manoeuvre through the aisles, and it certainly takes up less space in my garage, even when not folded. And the 26" wheeled Rivs are less bulky than the 29er.

On Fri, Apr 15, 2016 at 5:58 AM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:

...  consider a Moulton. ... The small wheels make them significantly easier to maneuver in tight spaces, ...