Front Derailleur Suggestions

[matt miller]

I've been having a heckuva time getting my front derailleur to go from little to big without hopping over. Eventually, if I talked sweetly to it and said Hail Mary three times, it would usually settle. Even took it to an experience mechanic. He also lowered it, then slowly kept raising it up, and also kept working the limit screw. A fraction of a turn was difference between not reaching the big ring, or going over!

It's a White Industries VBC with 46-28. FD is IRD compact triple Aplina. Friction Microshift thumbie. I think it's bottom pull. 

Any suggestions for different FD? May need different chain rings because of that big jump, but if I do that, I may be best off buying something else and selling these.

Thanks,

Matt

[Garth]

Try a road double instead. It'll shift that easily. FD specs have only do with what a mfr. makes, not the real world where combo's are endless. Your clearance of the bottom of the cage depends on the frame. I used to shift a 26/44/48 on my custom road bike with a 105 double(5500) and it was flawless.

[JohnS]

+1 on Garth's recommendation to use a road double. Something else to consider is the BB spindle length. Is it longer that needed? I had a nice SKF BB with a long spindle and had over shift issues as well. I switched  to a BB with a shorter spindle which helped a lot. Also improved the chain line and reduced the pedal Q factor. 

Good luck,

JohnS

[Nick Payne]

Your FD needs to be lowered a fair bit. At the point of closest approach, there should be only about 2mm clearance between the top of the chainring teeth and the outside derailleur cage as it passes over the teeth. I have doubts about the experience of your "experience" mechanic if he positioned the FD where your photo shows it. Making that change will mean that the cage won't have to move so far outboard to get the chain onto the big ring. And if you're only using two chainrings, fitting an FD intended for a double rather than a triple would also improve things. The sculpting of the cage on a triple FD is intended for use with chainrings where there is a reasonably large jump in the number of teeth between the granny and middle chainrings, and a considerably smaller jump between the middle and outer chainrings.

Nick Payne

[Joe Bernard]

The hiccup here is his double is really more of a triple with the middle ring removed; lifting a chain from 28t to 46 is a big climb. I'm not sure a double is going to cover this, but I agree lowering the derailer is a good idea. 

[Matt Miller]

Thanks all. When the FD was lowered, the chain could not climb up to the big ring. First thing he did was lower it. I tried it myself, when I first got the bike. 

I just ordered a cx70. If that doesn’t work, I’ll get new VBC or figure something out.

Also figured out the brake levers were long pull. So that explains part of the braking issue. Brakes are overrated! Ha.

Matt

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 23, 2023, at 9:16 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

The hiccup here is his double is really more of a triple with the middle ring removed; lifting a chain from 28t to 46 is a big climb. I'm not sure a double is going to cover this, but I agree lowering the derailer is a good idea. 

On Thursday, February 23, 2023 at 5:52:25 PM UTC-8 Nick Payne wrote:

Your FD needs to be lowered a fair bit. At the point of closest approach, there should be only about 2mm clearance between the top of the chainring teeth and the outside derailleur cage as it passes over the teeth. I have doubts about the experience of your "experience" mechanic if he positioned the FD where your photo shows it. Making that change will mean that the cage won't have to move so far outboard to get the chain onto the big ring. And if you're only using two chainrings, fitting an FD intended for a double rather than a triple would also improve things. The sculpting of the cage on a triple FD is intended for use with chainrings where there is a reasonably large jump in the number of teeth between the granny and middle chainrings, and a considerably smaller jump between the middle and outer chainrings.

Nick Payne

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[Jeffrey Arita]

Matt,

I just saw this thread.  I had your exact same problem (compact double crankset w/ 46-30 rings + front derailleur).  When shifting from small to big,  it wouldn't or the chain would jump over onto the crankarm.  I was sure I installed the correct front derailleur.  

I examined the FD I installed and saw that it was my IRD Alpina-d for triples (wrong one for this use-case).  OLD EYES, I'm guessing.  I dug out my IRD Sub-C and, of course, all was right with the world - excellent shifting with the compact crankset.  The IRD Sub-C is just another potential solution for your crankset combo (unfortunately I checked and it seems to be out of stock and is backordered at many retailers).

Good luck,

Jeff

Claremont, CA

[Brian Forsee]

Said mechanic here. There are many better than me but it was my full time gig for 7 years so I've adjusted my share of FDs, and i don't think there is any adjusting to get this combination of FD/crank/bb to work well. I've been out of the game for a few years now so maybe i've just lost my touch!

I like the suggestions of trying a road double. The issue with this one is the relatively deep inner cage of the FD would pinch the chain between it and the big ring, below the teeth. The high position shown in matts photo is the only position i could get it work in at all, and even then you have to be incredibly ginger with it. I think a FD with a shallower inner cage will work better. If you took the high limit screw out far enough it would allow the FD to swing up enough to not pinch the chain, but then it threw it over the big ring.

I knew the list members here would have a good suggestion on FD model/style!

-Brian

[Garth]

Half step plus granny gearing always involved a large shift. It was common to use road doubles, from most brands really. I've even seen Campy NR and SR FD's used. Almost any older double will work, even some from the last decade. Look for the cages where the front and back are shaped similarly, with the back slightly lower to varying degrees. I say "varying" because each brand has their way of designing them. This is where it's great to do your own work and to have a bunch on hand, there's no waiting around for someone else to do it, you play around with it and the feedback is instantaneous. Hey, I even found a photo scan of my original bike setup from sometime early 2000's. That's a TA Zephyr with 26/44/48 rings, FD-5500 FD and an XT RD, a M739.

Many Suntour work, most Shimano, Campy, Sachs, there's just too many to list. When cages were designed to not only function but they looked elegant, they had style.  Rocket science this is not, either it moves the chain from rail to rail in rhythm, or it doesn't. I personally I have the Shimano 105 5500 and Tiagra 4400 that work, as well as Campy NR and SR. The Suntour Superbe with the short cage I'm not sure about.

This photo below isn't mine, but it's a nice shot using a Campy SR. 50-46-30 rings on a TA crank.

[ascpgh]

Shaped inner plates hate wide chainring choices, they're made for corporate combinations to assure legal counsel of perfect shifting with their derailleurs, shifters cassette combos and other spec. What I found when building up my wide double (46/30) rando with RH cranks was that with all the new FDs to try, my mechanic found the SunTour Superbe from my bag of nearly NOS FD options fit and worked the best. Plus it doesn't try to hide that it is made of metal, it is bright silver.

A couple shots in album form:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/eSqnCSt3WxrtfmkCA

Tail of the cage not hitting the right chain stay, limiting how close to the 46t ring it could be, chain line when on on the 30t not below the intended interface of an origami inner plate sculpted for a very narrow range of OEM chainring size combinations and a width of parallel cage plates that permits operation across several cogs before trimming is necessary. I'm quite happy with it.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

On Thursday, February 23, 2023 at 12:45:08 PM UTC-5 mmille...@gmail.com wrote:

[Bill Schairer]

I agree with Garth and Andy.  I've got an old Campy shifting a 50/45/26, a Suntour AR or Vx (I can't remember which) shifting 42/34/19 on my Atlantis, and whichever isn't on the Atlantis is on my Trek shifting 45/42/24.  I've also used Cyclones.  It often takes a bunch of fiddling and trial and error - I've had derailleurs work well on one bike but not another so, as Garth said, having a choice of several on hand and doing one's own work is the best way to go.  The old derailleurs are elegant, light, plentiful, cheap, and they just work.  I picked one of the Suntours up for free from a bike shop parts bin, all it needed was a cable clamping screw.

Bill S

San Diego

[matt miller]

Picked up a used CX70. Initial installation and quick ride is promising. Slight rub on little ring, large in rear, but I don't think I've ever used that combination. Thanks all for your thoughts. (mostly wanted to update in case anyone else has issues.) TL:DR Triple bad, double good.

[Eric Marth]

I'm not a mechanic or an expert. But I've set up two compact doubles in the past year:

• On my Hillborne: A SunXCD 42/24 with a Suntour Cyclone (Mark I)
• On my MB-2: A TA Specialities 42/28 with a Suntour AR

In both instances I had to run the derailer a lot higher than I thought I should to get the jump. It looked so wrong I almost abandoned the crank. But then I looked closely at other compact doubles and found FDs run higher than conventional wisdom dictates. The same was true when setting up an SR mixte, had to run the FD pretty high to miss the chainstay but it shifts fine. 

Your mileage may vary. 

[Matthew Williams]

Hi everyone,

I need to replace my stock Rivendell front derailleur. Can someone please recommend a good front derailleur?

Here’s my existing setup:

Appaloosa
Rivendell Silver crankset and 3 rings
Rear cassette: Shimano XTR 11-34T
Rear derailleur: Shimano Deore long cage

With the exception of the rear cassette, all of the components came stock with the bike.

I picked up a Shimano Altus FD-M311 at the swap meet. Will this work for my setup? Does a better option exist? Please let me know your recommendations, advice, opinions, and experience!

Thanks, everyone.

[Joe Bernard]

It's a triple with a wide-ish cage to clear 7/8-speed chains, which I prefer on 9-speed systems cuz you don't have to trim as often to clear the narrower chain. Assuming you're using friction front shifting it should be fine*, index compatibility is a whole 'nother kettle of beans or whatever that phrase is. 

* Make sure you have the correct shim for your downtube if the clamp itself is 34.9. I just picked up a 34.9 Deore (used) that only had a 31.8 shim, I bought a 28.6 that would fit my frame. 

[Garth]

These kinda questions are ever a can of worms. A "good" FD is one that functions as called upon, regardless of it's name, shape or size. So, since you have the Altus on hand, try it. 

But first ..... you say you need to replace your FD, why ? Be specific.

[Matthew Williams]

> But first ..... you say you need to replace your FD, why ? Be specific.

Well, instead of shifting the chain, my front derailleur shifted the cuff of my jeans.

I got the grease out of my Levis, but I couldn’t get the Levis out of my front derailleur.

[Garth]

Well that sucks .... I can relate to wacky things happening !  Seriously though, the Altus should work just fine.

[Peter White]

Modern triple FDs are designed for a specific combination of chainrings. For example, the IRD FD in the photo is an exact copy of the Shimano 9 speed Ultegra Triple and 105 Triple FDs. Probably made by the same company that made it for Shimano. The bottom edges of the derailleur plates are properly spaced for the 10 tooth difference between the outer and middle chainrings of the Ultegra and 105 9 speed triple cranksets; 52 and 42 teeth respectively. When properly installed, the bottom edges of the derailleur will be about 1mm to 2mm above the tips of the chainring teeth when shifting between the outer and middle rings. So this FD only shifts well if the middle and outer rings have a 10 tooth difference. If, for example, they have a 12 tooth difference, and you have the FD high enough for the outer plate to clear the outer chainring, the inner plate will have a larger gap to the middle ring and the shift from the inner ring will not be good. With a 14 tooth difference, it's hopeless. You'll have to over-shift to get the chain cleanly onto the middle chainring.

So, to answer the original question, we need to know what chainring sizes are on the crankset in question.

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Peter White

[Matthew Williams]

Crankset and chainrings:

SIlver 173

44 x 34 x 24

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[Peter Adler]

Let me see if I have the details straight:

1) Rivendell frameset

2) Rivendell-specific crankset

3) Fairly typical Rivendellish cassette

4) Rivendell-supplied rear derailleur

5) Front derailleur taken from a bucketful of identical front derailleurs at Rivendell's parking lot sale

Is there a reason not to contact Rivendell directly, and just ask them? I suspect that the reason they had a bunch of those Altus FDs is because they tried them out with various builds. If I recall correctly, they were offered for a while as a build component/retail item;  they've just been replaced with something newer. In any case, they're likely to know whether or not they work well with frames/parts they also supply. If nothing else, I bet they'll want to hear what your beef is with the front derailleur they supplied you in the first place; they may not already know.

I mean, I'm not trying to be judge-y; it just seems to me that you're manufacturing a lot of extra effort for yourself without clear benefit.

Peter Adler

a habitual manufacturer of his own wasted efforts in
Berkeley, CA/USA

On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 10:04:43 AM UTC-7 Matthew Williams wrote:

[Matthew Williams]

Hi Peter, to answer your queries:

1:  Is there a reason not to contact Rivendell directly, and just ask them? […]

I asked at the swap meet if the Altus MD311 would work with my setup. The package is stamped “ 3x7/8 Speed/34.9mm, but the fellow with whom I spoke didn’t know if the Altus would work with my setup, and I’m respecting RBW’s Garage Sale Guideline #1. (See above for the photo of their sign.)

2:  I bet they'll want to hear what your beef is with the front derailleur they supplied you in the first place

My jeans cuff got caught in the chainring and badly bent the original RBW-supplied derailleur cage, so I need a new front derailleur.

3:  you're manufacturing a lot of extra effort for yourself without clear benefit.

I don’t know whether the Altus MD311 will work with my setup, which is why I asked if it will work or if a better option exists.

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[Joe Bernard]

It's a reasonable question and I think (if the clamp fits with the shim you have) that it'll shift those rings just dandy. In friction. If you're indexing then Bob's your uncle. 

[Peter White]

On my Rambouillet, I use the 9 speed Ultegra FD which the FD in the photo is a copy of. The smallest large chainring I can use is 48 teeth. The reason that's the smallest is the tail end of the derailleur will hit the chainstay if I position it lower. And if I used smaller rings the gap between the bottom edge of the outer plate would be too large and the derailleur then couldn't control movement of the chain between the chainrings. 

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Peter White

[Kieran J]

My favourite FD for this type of scenario is the Dura-Ace 7400 double. It works amazing on a compact wide-range crankset. Cheap as chips too.

KJ

[Patrick Moore]

+1. My 7400-series FDs shift a 42/28 perfectly despite having to be set rather high above the 42 t ring. In fact, they have to be set high to clear the BBBashguard in the outer position.

Kieran: "Cheap," did you say? I'd like to get a spare; what's your source?

On Mon, Mar 27, 2023 at 6:42 PM Kieran J <kjo...@gmail.com> wrote:

My favourite FD for this type of scenario is the Dura-Ace 7400 double. It works amazing on a compact wide-range crankset. Cheap as chips too.

KJ

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-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Kieran J]

Well, maybe I shouldn't speak in such absolutes :-) I got a nice used one on eBay many years ago for $15. YMMV!

KJ

[Joe Bernard]

Hehe, if you ever need to make rent put that nice used Dura-Ace mech on Ebay now 💸💸💸

[Brian Forsee]

I've also had good luck with the 7400... currently shifting a 44/24 combo quite nicely. They seem to still be reasonable on ebay but certainly are more like $40-$70.

Brian

[Patrick Moore]

I figgered. I do have a spare, but as with the one currently installed it has no outer throw stop, which requires one to upshift with some care to avoid throwing the chain over the bashguard. I cut off the outer stops on both (I think one is 7400, the other either 7401 or 7402 with a bit more outer throw) to use on my 2015 Matthews when I had a Bontrager 2-piece mtb triple on it and a 168 mm Q, IIRC. The DA fds shifted fine with the other limit perfect for the outer, but the mutilation of course complicated things when I went back to a narrower chainline crank.

But I'll check eBay again.

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[Drew Saunders]

When I was looking for a new FD for my 26-42, I looked at 7400's on eBay, but they weren't really all that cheap, or were quite beat up. I ended up with a c. 1990 Campagnolo Croce d'Aune FD from the UK that had been cleaned and polished so it looked like new, and it shifts the 26-42 very well. I also liked the idea of having as many manufacturers as possible in my drive train (Shimano RD, SRAM chain and cassette, Velocity hub, Silver bar-end shifters and Campy FD)

Drew

[Matthew Williams]

Hi everyone, for my existing drivetrain:

RD: Shimano Deore M591

Cassette: 9sp Shimano XTR 11/34T

SIlver crankset 44/34/24 (standard-issue from Rivendell)

9sp chain

I need a front derailleur with a narrow 9sp cage.

Would the Alpina Triple front derailleur work with my setup? Is the Alpina Triple designed to work with 7/8-speeds, or 9/10 speeds?

https://www.interlocracing.com/shop/60120-ird-alpina-front-derailleur-triple-braze-on-4020

(It’s braze-on, so I would be getting the 28.6 clamp.)

[Joe Bernard]

It's a copy of the late-'90s Shimano 105 9-speed triple that Riv put on most of their bikes for many years. I think it'll be fine. 

[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

Matt with the 44-34-24 & in need of a new FD

I suggest a Shimano Sora FD-R3030b, a 9speed triple designed for a 45mm front chainline.  You can still buy these at Universal Cycles for about $30

Universal Cycles -- Shimano FD-R3030 Sora Triple Front Derailleur - 9 Speed [EFDR3030X, EFDR3030F].

Amazon has them for $28.

I use it with a Sugino TD-2 46-36-26 triple with 130mm OLD rear hub, Shimano HG-400 12-36T- 9 cassette and a Shimano Deore RD-M591.  My front chain line is 44.1mm and rear is 43.6mm (middle cog).  Shifts great.   It has a nice, standard bottom pull mechanism, no lever arm bending the cable to the stop as used on the dual pull designs.

A 1980's Shimano Deore MT-60 (a triple) also shifts great.  

Your Altus should work.  The only problem is IF it was designed for a 50mm front chainline, there may not be enough LOW stop adjustment to shift to the Inner ring.  Found this out with a Shimano FD-M781 with setup described above.  The Sora cleared this up.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Ed Carolipio]

Hi Matt,

That FD works excellent for me on a Crust Canti Romanceur (130mm rear hub spacing) running 44-34-24 Silver crank and 110mm BB. I had to mount the FD higher than I wanted to clear a pretty tall chainstay when on the smallest ring so the gap between the cage and 44T ring is pretty big (~5mm).

Details on the drivetrain - FD: IRD Alpina on a Problem Solvers FD mount adapter; Crankset: Silver with 44T Dimension outer (ramped and pinned), 34T Origin middle, and 24T Silver inner; BB: Shimano 68x110; RD: Altus RD M-301; Chain: KMC X9; Cassette: Shimano HG 11-36; Shifters: Silver1 mounted on the downtube.

--Ed C.

On Friday, June 16, 2023 at 10:47:47 AM UTC-7 Matthew Williams wrote:

[John Bokman]

What I'm wondering is if the Alpina triple will work with a 10-speed setup?

John

Portland OR

[Matthew Williams]

Hi all, could someone please identify this pair of Deore XT derailleurs?

[Danny]

Matthew,

The rear looks like an M772, and the front an M786 maybe?

-Danny

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 6:29 PM Matthew Williams <matthewwil...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi all, could someone please identify this pair of Deore XT derailleurs?

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