Freewheels and Rivendell - Where We Started

[Jim Cloud]

With the subject of freewheels on a recent post, I thought it would be
of some interest to quote a piece of Rivendell history from the first
Rivendell catalog (Summer 1996).

"Freewheels

"We don't sell cassettes. There's nothing wrong with cassettes, but
there's something fishy about the way they're promoted. Cassettes
support axles better, so you don't break axles; but Bullseye, Phil and
others have proven that you can totally eliminate axle-flex and
breakages with a better designed freewheel hub. More likely, the real
reason cassettes have overtaken freewheels is to increase production
efficiency for the large hub makers. We and many others find
freewheels quicker and easier to change than cassettes; and freewheels
certainly have versatility on their side. Freewheel availability has
got to be a concern for anybody with freewheel hubs. Cassettes change
often enough to make year-to-year compatibility an issue, so it's not
as though once you've got your cassette body, you'll always be able to
get the cogs. But there's little incentive for anybody who ever made
freewheels to continue making them. Shimano still makes one cheap
model, SunTour is history. Regina-the company still exists, but we
hear they're making conveyor belts or something. Sachs, the great
German hope, still offers a full line of freewheels, but the word is
they'd like to cut back their selection. Factories see freewheels as
money-eaters."

I don't wish to insinuate that something Grant Peterson wrote in 1996
is representative of his present opinion. It's still interesting,
however, to see how some (including me) would have chosen a freewheel
equipped bike at that time in preference of a cassette. I'm
personally quite satisfied with the choice I made for my 1996
Rivendell Standard and feel that its given me good service and will
continue to do so in the future.

Jim Cloud
Tucson, AZ

[Bill]

My inner Luddite spoke to me when I acquired my new Sam last year: a
Phil hub with a Dura-Ace 7-speed freewheel, and I couldn't be happier
with it.

[islaysteve]

This is interesting from my point of view. Having come to "modern"
road cycling in 1994 (and not having heard of Rivendell or GP at that
time), I bought a Shimano 8-speed freehub-equipped bike and never
looked back. And of course that hub (which I still have) is
compatible with the 8-9 Shimano hubs that are widely available,
including the one on my 650b wheelset. And cassettes for these are
also widely available in a number of ranges/configurations. Seems
like a good system to me.
Steve

On Jun 8, 12:44 pm, Jim Cloud <Cloud...@aol.com> wrote:

[tarik saleh]

I did not buy that then and especially do not now that quality
multispeed freewheels are not available. The removal line seems to be
willful disregard of reality. Cassettes rarely get stuck. Freewheels
almost always do to the point of being at least a pain to remove. I
have broken and bent a fair number of freewheel hub axles over the
years, not phils, but other shimano and suntour mid to high level
ones.

I think 1996 was square in the shimano 8 speed time frame, just before
9 speed came out (or maybe 9 speed was in dura-ace, 8 was in ultegra).
I still can get pretty good priced 8 speed casettes from Sram and
shimano and sunrace that are new, 3 different models from SRAM with
3-5 cog combos in each. Similar to better availability from Shimano.
Availability is certainly down, but they trend toward wider range all
purpose ratios, rather than straight block systems. I don't think the
availability of casettes is a problem 15 years after that was written.
I still would not try to put a 8 speed on a brand new bike (unless I
was bottom feeding to outfit it).

The irony is I have probably pulled more freewheels than most in the
last 15 years. Only they are bmx freewheels on my single speed mtb and
cross bike. With more than a change a month, often changing week to
week, depending on races coming up. Fortunately Paul hubs are immune
to axle breaking and single speed gear ratios tend not to lead to
disastrous overtightening. Although my 32-20 climbing gear can be
really hard to get off at times. The white industries bmx freewheels
suggest that american manufacturers can make really high quality
freewheels still, just not with more than 2 gears. The prospect of
paying for a phil hub (or NOS maxicar) with a mythical white industry
multispeed freewheel would probably challenge nearly any other
(non-carbon) hub plus cassette combo in existence.

Tarik

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>
>

--
Tarik Saleh
tas at tariksaleh dot com
in los alamos, po box 208, 87544
http://tariksaleh.com
all sorts of bikes blog: http://tsaleh.blogspot.com

[Bruce Herbitter]

I started riding as an adult in 2002, with the cassette that came on my Trek Navigator. Interestingly, the past few years have seen me migrate both the 650B and Freewheels, which I have had no trouble finding. Right now, I have a 7 speed Dura-Ace FW on a lugged Japanese frame (orig an Ed Braley conversion project) and a 6 speed Ultegra level FW on a Phil hub mounted on a Rambouillet. Both work great.

[MichaelH]

I stuck with freewheels for a long time. Probably, mostly because I
already had a bunch of perfectly good hubs, not to mention frames with
126 mm rear spacing. I especially found 7 speed freewheels (13-28)
with a 50/40/28 very nice on my touring bikes.

I struggled through the dry period of increasingly hard to find
freewheels. Eventually, I bought a set of wheels with a 9 speed,
12-27 cassette. I found that I really liked the ability to use 12 and
then 11 toothed cassettes because I could reduce the size of the
rings. Eventually I migrated to a 44/30 crank with an 11-28 cassette
or 12-27 with 48/34/26 triples. The former gave me the same low as a
racing triple by only giving up one gear at the top, and the latter
gives me a good shifting pattern, a pretty low mid gear and a great
escape, which I can't get with a freewheel.

Cassettes are indeed easier to remove that freewheels, but I don't
think its a big deal, although I admit to having stripped the threads
on on one free hub. I do have two complaints about cassettes. First,
the low end ones don't shift reliably in 9 speed mode. They don't
hold the chain and jump around. I have not found this to be a problem
with the better Ultegra and HG cassettes. Second, they are harder to
clean. I use to simply run a thin strip of cloth between cogs to
clean up freewheels, but that doesn't work with cassettes. And to
boot, Shimano has drilled a gazillion little holes in the cogs which
collect muck and are very difficult to clean.

michael,
take care of Self; it's one of a kind and irreplaceable

On Jun 8, 12:44 pm, Jim Cloud <Cloud...@aol.com> wrote:

[Michael_S]

I think the freewheel argument would stand up nicely if there were
high quality parts available today. I know that Phil hub is a thing of
beauty and I'd make the sacrifice if I wanted one. But the world has
changed. Even good quality 8 speed cassettes are hard to find ( yes
I'm hoarding some of those) these days and I don't like that.
Time to move on and shift your paradigm to the 8-9 speed cassette for
now. You can still get be retro on 8 speeds if that's your thang.

~mike

> > Tucson, AZ- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[LF]

I stuck with freewheels, until Sheldon convinced me otherwise, while discussing which rear hub to use for a Raleigh Twenty build (7 gears)  ... Something he pronounced  definitively about less stress and strain on the bearings with a cassette.  I took it on faith. Personally, I never noticed a difference. I also never knowingly rode a freewheel bike with more than 7 gears. I like to think that with 7 or less gears, it's all the same; with 8 or more gears cassettes are helpful.

Best,

Larry "drive trains with 7 rear gears are the height of bicycle technology" Fieman

[Tim McNamara]

A sometimes un-discussed issue is that the long axle overhang between the drive side bearing and the jam nut against the dropout allows flex. This is what results in bent or broken axles, which is often what is focused upon when discussing the benefits of cassettes. Cassettes have a much short section of exposed axle and thus less flex. But that flex from a freewheel axle also loads the dropout and can result in dropout failure as well. Phil Wood and Bullseye hubs, with their larger diameter axles, reduce or eliminate this as well as a cassette hub does.

The chief benefit to me of the cassette is that my 220 lbs don't screw a cassette down tight. Jim Thill's mechanic Mongo spent probably 5 hours trying to get a freewheel off of my Phil hub on my A/R a couple of years ago. Power tools and destroying the freewheel were ultimately necessary.

Also, a vertical dropout reduces the flex of the axle by providing better support for the jam nut and the axle, reducing the likelihood of bending or breaking an axle. A freewheel on a standard hub with a 9 mm threaded axle and horizontal dropouts are the worst combination.

[rob markwardt]

I ride 6-7 bikes regularly so removal of freewheel/hub is a rare
occurance and has never been problem. For me it boils down to
simplicity. A well spaced five speed freewheel is truly all the gears
that I need....says the man with 5,6,7,8, and 9 speed bikes. My
favorite bike is a 71 Paramount with a five speed freewheel and a half-
step granny up front (I really only need two rings up front). I don't
like single speeds, but when I ride that bike I kind of feel like I'm
riding a single speed with "options". When I get cruising I rarely
shift, I adjust my cadence to small hills, wind, speed bursts,
etc...it feels really smooth. When riding with others I hear the
gears clicking and I keep thinking why? When I do get on my 8 and 9
speed bikes I'm the one doing the clicking...not sure why...because
they are there?

Rob

[Tim McNamara]

Rob, those are great points!

Many gears and brifters go together. No one would reach down to downtube shifters to exploit 8/9/10/11 speed freewheels and shift five times in a mile, they'd just pedal a little faster or push a little harder.

Many's the ride I've gone on for 30-45-50 miles and never bothered to shift (even with brifters). But with brifters I am much more likely to shift gratuitously. I'm down to two bikes with brifters, both of which are ridden rarely. I'm back to DT shifters on my most frequently used bikes 'cuz I like 'em (except my 3 speed, which has a trigger shifter on the bars).