Favorite All-around Drive train?

[John Bokman]

Curious: What's been your favorite all-round drive train on your riv(s)?

I was a big fan of the Sugino 46-36-26 tripple, but wanted a narrower Q-factor, and never used the granny ring. I now use a 44/30 x 11/32 which is nice in some ways, but I don't get the super smooth shifting I got from the original (on my 2009 Sam). In fact, i've never gotten better shifting than the original Sam setup.

I like the idea of Riv's double, but it's a wider Q than I want, and with the big ring at just 38 teeth, I deem the top end to be a bit lacking for the type of riding I do.

I've thought of using their Silver 44/34/24, but again, it's a wider Q than I want, and I would hardly ever use the granny.

I've got indexing on another bike (Shimano 105, 11x28), and it shifts flawlessly, with a narrow Q from the Velo Orange 46/30 cranks. I'm not interested in going indexing on the Riv, just a data point.

[Joe Bernard]

Have you ever ridden a bike with Silvers? I've owned two and my feet missed the pedals 50% of the time on a 110mm BB. They're narrow!

[john Bokman]

Joe, I have never tried Silver cranks. I think I have a 113mm bottom bracket if I recall correctly (2009 Sam set up for Sugino triple).

> On Nov 24, 2019, at 4:20 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Have you ever ridden a bike with Silvers? I've owned two and my feet missed the pedals 50% of the time on a 110mm BB. They're narrow!
>

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[PaulS]

Is the 11-32 a 9-Sp cassette? Try an 11-Sp. I find the spacing just fine. Of course, I never really had much complaints about wide range 9-sp either.

[aeroperf]

To answer your question, my Sam came with a Sugino double 40-26, and what I ended up with was 46-36-26 on a 110 BB with 11-34 cassette.

But regarding front cranks, you can always build your own.
You can still buy an XD2 compact crank, if you liked that, both the double and the triple.  Nashbar, ModernBike and others still stock them.
And you can always get different chainrings.

If you want a narrower Q, change the bottom bracket.  Pull the crank arms and measure the bottom bracket you have.  Buy the next size down BB-UN55 and have your friendly local bike shop install it.
It should be about $25 for the new BB and $25 for the shop.

Just bear in mind that a Riv chainline is typically in between a mountain bike and a road bike.  So any given road crank installed on a Riv wants to live just slightly wider than if installed on a road bike.  It seems to be the nature of the design.

[john Bokman]

Paul, it’s an 8-speed cassette. Sram.

> On Nov 24, 2019, at 6:18 PM, PaulS <shin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Is the 11-32 a 9-Sp cassette? Try an 11-Sp. I find the spacing just fine. Of course, I never really had much complaints about wide range 9-sp either.
>

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[Deacon Patrick]

The Shimano MTB 1x11 system that came on my protoGus is ugly (the shifter is an aircraft carrier strapped to the handlebars wherever they happen to fit and be accessible, which is only one position on bullmoose or equivalent wavy or Jones bars) but shifts beautifully and stands up to a lot of abuseage, and this from a guy who loves the simplicity of fixed gear.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Nick Payne]

I have several bikes setup with 42-29 chainrings and Shimano 11-34 or 11-40 11-speed cassettes, and I find that gearing pretty ideal for the sort of riding I do - usually 60-100km rides over undulating terrain.

Here's one using a pair of TA Carmina cranks with a 94BCD spider. A 107mm BB gives a 44mm chainline with a Q of 153mm:

Here's another using a pair of Middleburn RO2 cranks, also with 94BCD spider. This frame has a 386EVO bottom bracket, and the Q is 157mm.

Another using a pair of Ritchey Logic 94BCD cranks. A 98mm Phil Wood BB gives the correct chainline when setup as a double, and the Q is 146mm.

Nick

[Garth]

What you're looking for then would be a wide compact double which are designed for road bikes with their straight-er arms mid 140's q., One with a 94 bcd like the IRD wide compact crank would suit you. It comes with rings however, so you'll have to get another large ring. 

A 110 road double also can work with a 34 small ring and a 34 large cog. The low gear is about 2 gear inches higher than what you have.  Sugino 901D Mighty double 110 crank comes to mind. It comes with our without rings, black or silver. Yes, that would be a 34/38 crank as you said you wanted a 38 large ring. Having closely spaced rings works better than it sounds. 

I've seen both of these here for informational purposes :  https://www.bikehighway.com/cranksets.html#product_list_limit=90

[maxcr]

Im not the most knowledgeable in the subject but what about white industries vbc? Would those be an option?
That’s what I’m considering for my custom road with a 46/30 setup and a 9-speed 11/32 cassette
Max

[Bill Lindsay]

I guess my favorite would be

Rene Herse crankset, 46/30

Dura Ace 7900 front and rear ders

Dura Ace barcon shifters, friction front, index rear

Dura Ace 12-27 10 speed cassette

This is on my Roadeo.  I have a similar 2x10 drivetrain on my brevet bike, but that bike has Dura Ace DT Shifters, 42/26 rings on the Rene Herse crankset, and an 11-28 Ultegra cassette. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Patrick Moore]

My favorite drivetrain is a 46 X 15 turning a 24 3/4" wheel. Pro 5 Vis single on Phil ti 113 mm bb bearing assembly pulling bulk SRAM 9 sp chain to turn Dura Ace 15 t cog on Phil 2X track hub. 76" gear. (The other side of the hub has a 17/20 Dingle for 67 and 57 inch gears.) Q is 130 mm.

[Jason Fuller]

If you can handle the additional cost, the low Q-factor, endless chainring size options, and beautiful craftsmanship of the Rene Herse / Compass cranks cannot be beat in my opinion.

[john Bokman]

Thanks for all the ideas.

I have considered a white industries before. 

I have considered a Rene here, also.

Don’t think I’m willing to spend so much, however, because I imagine it would not only be the cranks, but the bottom bracket as well, no? 

I think a 42 large ring and something like 26 small ring would be ideal.

Main thing is, I like to be able to use the big ring for most of my riding (and be able to access the 32 cog with it without cross-chaining). I drop down to the small ring only for the steep climbs.

As it is now, I can’t get into my 44x32 without cross-chaining. I’m using Grant’s Shimano Altus derailed, BTW.

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[Garth]

   In that case a Sugino 601D complact plus crankset would also work. It's a 2 ring super compact road crank designed with a 74 and 110 mid/big ring, it has no provision for an outer ring. It doesn't use a square taper BB though, but it is included.

https://www.bikemania.biz/build-your-own-sugino-ox601-compact-plus-crankset-w-bb.html

[Jason Fuller]

I agree with 42-26 being a pretty ideal setup for a bike like this.  That's what I just switched to on my Rene Herse cranks, from 46-30. The latter is OK but as you say, I found myself needing to drop from big to small ring more often than I'd like. With the 42, I can get up most hills in the big ring, and just drop down for steep stuff or long climbs. 

[PaulS]

FYI, “cross chaining” on a road double isn’t as big of a deal as doing it on a triple. As long as your chain line is good, you won’t have issues.

[ted]

John,

If you think that 26/42 rings and an 11-32 cassette will give you what you want, and you can pay for it, I'd suggest you splurge on the White or RH crank set.

RH and White cranks (except the m30 variants) go on "normal" square taper bottom brackets so you probably wouldn't "need" a new one.

Though with rings as small as 26/42 you would probably have clearance to use a shorter bb and might want to do so. In any case serviceable cartridge bbs are fairly inexpensive.

Cross chaining is a bit in the eye of the beholder. Some might say that by definition going big-big with a 2xn setup is cross chaining. Others may say its not a problem, particularly if your chianline is set up a bit on the narrow side. The small small combo can lead to chain rub on the big ring which would be more of a problem, but it doesn't sound like thats something you want to do anyway.

I have a bike (fairly new) with a white industries 26/42 crank and an 11sp 11-32 cassette (sram). Rear sifting is sram force doubletap, front shifting is gevanalle burd with a bar end.

This setup works very nicely for me on the kinds of roads and trails rides I mainly use it for. I find many trails to be "steep" and like having the ~21" low gear.

I have another bike with a 28/44 RH crank and 10sp 11-28 cassette. Downtube shifters, suntour xcd rear d, gevenalle fd. For anything paved in the SF bay area I find the 1 to 1 low gear enough. (For doing Sierra to the Sea I put on an 11-32 cassette as a hedge against altitude early in the week and fatigue later on.) When drafting some of the faster folks I know the top end is usually enough.

My raciest bike has a 32/48 FSA crank and an 11sp 11-28 cassette with sram etap shifting.

All these bikes work great for the kinds of riding I do on them. I believe gearing is very personal. For me its a compromise balancing how low a gear I want, how big a gear I want, and how tight I like the spacing between gears. I go with a compromise that hits whats most important to me for the kind of rides I intend to use the bike for. On my "racy" bike I started with an 11-32 cassette, but I missed the 16t cog more than I appreciated the 32t so I changed it to an 11-28. If you are particular, you'll probably have to experiment to find what you like the best.

One other caveat, with a "big" ring as small as a 42 the tail of the front derailer cage may hit the chainstay before its as low as it should be. An extra short cage fd like the gevenalle avoids that.

Ted

who doesn't think he's hardly ever been dropped because he didn't have a big enough gear, just not enough lungs and/or legs

On Monday, November 25, 2019 at 1:58:30 PM UTC-8, John Bokman wrote:

Thanks for all the ideas.

I have considered a white industries before. 

I have considered a Rene here, also.

Don’t think I’m willing to spend so much, however, because I imagine it would not only be the cranks, but the bottom bracket as well, no? 

I think a 42 large ring and something like 26 small ring would be ideal.

Main thing is, I like to be able to use the big ring for most of my riding (and be able to access the 32 cog with it without cross-chaining). I drop down to the small ring only for the steep climbs.

As it is now, I can’t get into my 44x32 without cross-chaining. I’m using Grant’s Shimano Altus derailed, BTW.

On Nov 25, 2019, at 2:16 AM, Garth <gar...@gmail.com> wrote:

What you're looking for then would be a wide compact double which are designed for road bikes with their straight-er arms mid 140's q., One with a 94 bcd like the IRD wide compact crank would suit you. It comes with rings however, so you'll have to get another large ring. 

A 110 road double also can work with a 34 small ring and a 34 large cog. The low gear is about 2 gear inches higher than what you have.  Sugino 901D Mighty double 110 crank comes to mind. It comes with our without rings, black or silver. Yes, that would be a 34/38 crank as you said you wanted a 38 large ring. Having closely spaced rings works better than it sounds. 

I've seen both of these here for informational purposes :  https://www.bikehighway.com/cranksets.html#product_list_limit=90

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[Joe Bernard]

Agreed about cross-chaining, which I always understood as big-big on anything and small-small on a triple. I've always used the full cassette with the middle position ring on doubles and triples, and now that's often the only option because I've been riding 1x bikes. I wouldn't worry about it as long as the chain isn't making weird noises and jumping cassette cogs.

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

On Sunday, November 24, 2019 at 4:10:38 PM UTC-8, John Bokman wrote:

Curious: What's been your favorite all-round drive train on your riv(s)?

I like my 53/42/30 Campagnolo triple paired with a 13-29 or a 14-28 best. Why?

• It offers a decently wide range with usable highs and low-enough lows, and nice small gearing jumps that doesn't jar the legs.
• It doesn't include crazy high gears I don't need, and excludes that gritty 11T cog that's borderline akin to chewing on gravel.
  
• The Q-factor on the Campagnolo Record/Chorus triple crankset isn't horrible. It's not 145mm, but it isn't mountain cranks wide either.
  
• Campagnolo components during the 10-speed era, especially the aluminum ones, are pretty in a classic way.
• Spare parts and rebuildability. Well, not all of it, but much better than SRAM and Shimano, that's for sure.

Some may say "that's a lot of overlap", but one can't get wide range and small jumps any other way. Furthermore, the way Ergopowers work, shifting a triple isn't bad. For example, at the transition from the 53T to 42T, you simultaneously actuate both left and right Ergopower thumb levers, to shift the front from 53T to 42T and the rear up 3 gears, so you'll remain at about the same gear ratio and cadence, except with different gears. This technique also works when upshifting the front and correspondingly downshifting the rear, using the flappy paddles on both Ergopowers. No problemo.

[Garth]

Apparently, for really low gear triple cranks work just peachy, right now the Bomba has 24/36/44 and a 9sp 12-36 cassette with only the 14-32 portion of it is used. An 8 speed 11-34 and using the 13-34 part would also work great. Coasting at high-er speed and enjoying the view......weeeeee indeed !   

Cross chaining and q factor are right up there with chain lube/cleaning, politics and religion .... oh heck.... everything "human/created/cause-effect" really ...... Question the authenticity/source of any/all claims and like a tent without a pole to support it ..... doesn't stand.  

What does Stand is that which Stands all by IT-Self without any support/other :)  ..... and that .... this ..... is All That Truly IS   !!!      Skippety-dooh-daah .... skippety-yay ...... my-oh-my ...... what wonders-to-Day !  

[lconley]

The longer the chain stays are, the less "cross chaining" matters. Years ago, super short chain stays made "crossover gearing" a valid option - the front gear spacing was the same as the rear gear spacing so you used the inner two or three rear cogs with the small chainring and the outer two or three rear cogs with the big chainring. So a five speed freewheel gave 6 speeds and a six speed freewheel gave 7 speeds.

+1 for Grant's longer chain stays which allow you to use all of your gear combinations and is great for "half-step gearing"  and "half step plus granny gearing"

Laing

who used to tape his 10 speed gear chart to his Cinelli stem

 

[ascpgh]

Q. "Favorite All-around Drive train?"

A. What I've derived over the years for my Rambouillet. 

OE TA Zephyr cranks with the inner triple ring and spacers removed with 46x30t on a narrower SKF BB than the OE Phil, Shimano rear hub and 13-32 cassette, Mavic 840 RD with the long cage of an 845 on a Wolftooth RoadLink (the 845 "VTT" had a cheesy colored sticker in place of the laser-etched "MAVIC" on the outer parallelogram arm and the 841 long road cage was bizarre), Mavic 860 clamp FD, SunTour Accushift 7 bar end shifters and whatever 8-speed chain I find when stocking up. The non-integrated aside: Shimano aero levers and  Paul Racer center mount brakes. Umbrage taken with the suggestion that a bike can't be "integrated" without committed drivetrain, brakes and control levers from whomever.

Love the crisp movement and no-play jockey wheel of the Mavic RD under control of the Accushift levers (only in friction), it's akin to the SunTour XC Pro units I've treasured in use over the years and whose stocks are thinning, prices climbing in the resellers' forums. The Mavic FD is just a classic parallel cage unit where responsibility for clean chain disengagement/engagement is up to my left hand, easing my pedal force and timing it all correctly during a shift. When not being used its cage sides are magically distant from rubbing on the chain. 

What I find most satisfying about this multi-continent, multi-decade drivetrain concoction is that I can shift it as fast or slow as I decide, across as many or few cogs as I need and it is quieter than all the newer stuff. I think I've mentioned the best aspect of a well-sorted bike is how quiet things are. I vary the approach to individual shifts with input from my eyes to know how much to shift for the change of terrain ahead, my mind to know what I'm about to do (uphill, accelerate, pass, slow or stop), how I'm feeling (frisky, relaxed, tired) and how fast I'm turning the pedals. 

It's like butter!

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Patrick Moore]

For derailleur bikes, I've taken to using "sub-compact doubles" that are actually 1Xs with a granny ring bailout; as I've adapted to this strategy, my cassettes have grown from 7 speeders to 10 speeders.

Currently my ownly derailleur bike is my dirt road Matthews; with tires measuring 29.6" tall, a 42 X 28 with a 13-25 10-speed cassette gives me gear inches from 93 down to 50 in the big ring, while the 28 takes them down to 33"; and I get 1-tooth gaps throughout most of the cassette. (Fun fact: Bar Cons pulling 7410 derailleurs. Work beautifully.)

I swapped an earlier Sam to much the same: swapped out standard Silver 46/36/24 to wr double by replacing the 46 with a guard and replacing the 36 with a 38, and upgrading the 7 sp cassette to 9 speed. Much the same range and intervals as with the Matthews. (Fun fact: the 38 was already in the middle of the cassette, so no adjustment needed. I simply left the LX fd where it was and only adjusted the outer throw screw; worked fine, until I replaced it with a 7410 fd.)

On an erstwhile Ram, I first used a 46X32 or possibly a 44 X 30 TA Pro 5 Vis crank with a close range 7 speed cassette (7410 derailleurs, with indexed dt shifters -- worked less well than friction), then swapped it out for a beautiful 7410 crank with "compact" 52X38 rings and a 16-27 9 speed cassette.

I have an old, very nice Libertas I may build up; I will use either a subcompact double with close ratio 9/10 sp cassette, or perhaps go back to half step if I keep the rear spacing at 120 mm.

One day I may have an AM-hubbed Riv clone with, say, 80-70-61 gears, or possibly 74-66-57" gears.

[masmojo]

I really don't favor one brand or model over another, but speaking in a general sense I like the new 1X drivetrains.
I think wide ratio 9+ cassettes have pretty much killed the Triple front crank, but I like a good double from time to time.

I recently built up a bike with SRAM 1X10 derailleur/shifter combo and I honestly was kinda blown away by just how easy the rear derailleur was to adjust. Maybe I was just lucky, but I set the low limit & High limit screws, fired through the gears and everything was perfect!! That NEVER happens!
Overall my favorite would probably be my old Deore XT 7 speed with thumb shifters. EPIC!

[masmojo]

Regarding the Q-factor; I used to worry about it quite a lot, then one day I noticed that my natural gaite on the pedals when using a low Q-factor crank was with my feet more to the outside of the pedals anywayz.
These days I go as narrow as the bike will allow, but I don't worry much about it.

[James / Analog Cycles]

Where I live, wider is better.  So we mucked around in figured out that you can do a 44/24 White double or a 44/24 Middleburn double and run an  9 speed 11-40 cassette in the back with a clutch GX 10 speed rear mech.  This gives a huge range of gears, with the added benefit of having a clutch rear mech for rough roads.  Friction shifts or index shifts using Shimano 9 speed bar cons and a cable pull modifying pulley.  Why have limited gears when you have have super wide range gears?  At least that's our thought.  Shimano CX front mech works great for said application.  Reasonable Q factor.  

-james / analog cycles

[William deRosset]

Hi, All,

Ok, I will play.

Disclosure: my rivlike bike is a 1998 Heron Touring that is on permanent loan/trailer duty with my brother in VT.

Drivetrain- Ritchey logic compact double, 48/34, Suntour XC front derailleur, 13-32 Sachs 7-speed freewheel, deore xt 8s short-cage rear derailleur, Suntour Sprint downtube shifters.

That isn't how it is set up today, but that was its peak-Rivendell moment. It has a TA pro 5 vis 48/32, a 9s era xt rear derailleur, and a Shimano 14-28 7s freewheel now. Works just as well, but not quite as aesthetically-pleasing to me.

As long as I get the ergonomics (low tread width mostly, but STI levers don't spark joy) and a 3:1 gear range with a low enough gear, I am set with most gearing setups. I slightly prefer downtube shifters (and indexing if >7 cogs in the back), and currently mostly use either 7s friction or 10s indexing setups with wide-range double cranksets.

I also have a modern-ish guilty pleasure: Campagnolo ergo record/chorus 10s from the pre-carbon fiber crank era. A Record crank keeps the q around 145. The whole group all works well, it looks good on my steel bikes, and spare parts are abundant/ still in production fifteen years later.

Best Regards,

Will
William M deRosset
Fort Collins CO USA

[William deRosset]

Hi, All,

If low tread width is a priority and you really want wide-range gearing, then the TA pro five vis, fiddly setup and all, is the leader, followed by its imitators (and it's inspiration, the stronglight 49d). I can set up a 1x+granny like a 48/32 with a 140 tread width without too much trouble.

For current production, the René Herse crank is lovely, expensive, sets up well (use a Shimano 107 bb) and has a 142mm or so q. Lots of chainring choices, but only two paired setups with ramps and pins.

The IRD Defiant is utterly simple to set up and live with (I can use a 107 bb on my Road Sport and the IRD is a good choice), is not terribly expensive, and also slots in with a reasonable tread width. It also comes with 46/30 rings with shifting aids, which do help with wide-range front setups.

If you can live with racing gears (53/39, 52/42, or similar) then the Dura-ace 7400/7402 cranks, Campagnolo record/nuovo record/super record and their many imitators, and the lovely Suntour Cyclone/superbe cranks are great and all slot in in the 140-ish millimeter tread width range for modern chainline setups.



Good luck, and let us know where you go with the bike.

[Nikos Karanikas]

My favorite is this:https://www.velovitality.co.uk/collections/transmission/products/sunxcd-ta-chainset. I chose the 40-26 with a 12-29 or 12-32 miche cassette, both with a short cage rear derailleur. Since i use 11 speed trigger shifters with my Bosco setup, my LBS used around 1,5mm narrower chainring spacers to make it work properly.

[John Bokman]

Lotsa good options and thoughts here. I must admit I'm leaning toward the Herse setup, damn the cost. If I'm going to pay to go custom, I may as well spend my wad. 

107 BB or 110? (Thanks for that data point William D. R.)

One concern is that it seems to me that Grant's bikes do really well with his spec'd components. Not so sure if they do as well without. Specifically I'm speaking of the more "versatile" bikes, like my Sam HIll. Will the narrow tread and shorter bottom bracket play well with this bike?

[Jason Fuller]

Yes, get the Herse cranks!  I am certain you will be happy you did. As for BB length, I installed mine on the BB that my Sam Hillborne came with (113??? No idea actually, website doesn't say and I didn't measure) and with the 46-30 it was nearly touching the frame, probably 0.5mm clearance, though it never touched.  I since put a 26T on which has good clearance.  Smaller rings are not only great for hills, but they get that Q factor as low as possible!

I only have 200 km on my Sam, but it is PERFECT in my opinion with the Herse cranks and Campagnolo Athena 11 group set.  I think it's a bit more extravagant than Grant would recommend, purely because from his Spock-like logical thinking, it is unnecessary to spend more than the Silvers. True, it's not necessary.  But the extra cost is well spent, in my opinion!  

[PaulS]

Herse cranks are a thing of beauty. I would personally go 107mm cranks if the chainrings clear and you won’t have heel rub issues. Since you’re going to utilize big-big combo at times, it makes sense to move the big chainring inboard a bit.

[Steve Palincsar]

They're not only a thing of beauty, they also work exceptionally well.   My JP Weigle has a Herse triple, 24/34/46, 12-32 10 spd SRAM cassette w/bar end shifters, a 9 speed Deore XT rear derailleur and a Shimano Tiagra FD4603F triple. 

The big ring on the crank is special: it's a ramped and pinned 11-speed 46T meant to be part of a matched 30/46 pair.  It turns out, whatever magic there is in the 30 match also is there for a 34, because I've never experienced front shifting like this: it's just amazing, just like shifting a hyperglide rear.  Shift, SNAP and it's done, not the old familiar bump-and-grind we're all used to.   I've been using matched Shimano XTR M900 SG and SGX rings for years on several bikes, and these Herse rings are much, much better.

On 11/27/19 5:26 PM, Jason Fuller wrote:

Yes, get the Herse cranks!  I am certain you will be happy you did. As for BB length, I installed mine on the BB that my Sam Hillborne came with (113??? No idea actually, website doesn't say and I didn't measure) and with the 46-30 it was nearly touching the frame, probably 0.5mm clearance, though it never touched.  I since put a 26T on which has good clearance.  Smaller rings are not only great for hills, but they get that Q factor as low as possible!

I only have 200 km on my Sam, but it is PERFECT in my opinion with the Herse cranks and Campagnolo Athena 11 group set.  I think it's a bit more extravagant than Grant would recommend, purely because from his Spock-like logical thinking, it is unnecessary to spend more than the Silvers. True, it's not necessary.  But the extra cost is well spent, in my opinion!  

-

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[john Bokman]

Steve that bike is a beaut! Good to know the cranks perform so well. It’s the bump and grind I’m trying to eliminate from my life.

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[Steve Palincsar]

The ramped and pinned 46 was an experiment. 

Before switching the big ring I thought front shifting on this bike -- aside from issues with the first choice of front derailleur, a Campagnolo double, not shifting to the inner ring -- was excellent and I was very skeptical about whether ramps and pins would help.  I have extensive experience with Shimano SG and SGX ramped and pinned rings on several XTR M900 cranks, and while they're certainly less crunchy than straight cut teeth, they're basically still the old bump and grind. 

The original Herse rings shifted very well -- better than the XTR M900 ramped and pinned rings.  Still a variation on the old bump and grind, only silken.  Better than anything I'd ever experienced before, and I really couldn't imagine that a ramped and pinned ring -- especially not one that wasn't matched to the middle ring (it was, after all, designed to match a 30, not a 34) would be a significant difference.   But there was a significant, indeed a dramatic difference.

After the LBS switched the big ring to the ramped and pinned 46 the mechanic told me there was a problem: he couldn't get the bike to shift to the 24.  Curious, because at that point I had 1,000 miles on it and the Tiagra double certainly shifted to the 24.  You did have to finesse front shifting under load, naturally, but it certainly shifted to it.  A test ride proved him right.  Whatever he did, it didn't now.

I messed with the adjustment on the ride, and found that if I rotated the derailleur so that the front of the cage pointed in it did shift to the front better, but then shifting on the middle and outer didn't work properly.  So I brought it back to the shop, and they suggested trying the Tiagra triple.

As you know, Rene Herse recommends against a front derailleur made for triples.  Most are made for much larger rings, so the ledge on the inner cage doesn't match and the chain hangs up on the ledge.  But the Tiagra FD4603 is made for smaller chain rings, and fits 24/34/46 very well.  Coupled with the change to the ramped and pinned 11spd 46T ring, front shifting is simply amazing.  SNAP and it's done.  No bump and grind. 

When they introduced the 42/26 and 44/28 chainrings, Jan wrote in his blog ( https://www.renehersecycles.com/rene-herse-11-speed-chainrings-in-new-sizes/ )

After we introduced the 46/30 rings, we continued developing the other sizes. Each ring is a separate project, and each ring is designed to work only with a single inner ring: The teeth of both rings must line up in a particular way to get a good shift. The pin must hit the chain in the middle of a link and not at the pivot, otherwise, it doesn’t really do much to lift the chain. And then the chain must mesh seamlessly with the teeth of the big ring. That part is actually the hardest. Most makers look at the problem from a static point of view, but to optimize the shifting, you need to consider that the chainring is spinning at 90-120 rpm. The downshifts require other parts of the chainrings to be relieved, so the chain can pass to the inside without having to climb over the teeth first. There is a lot to it, and much of it is a trade secret.

What happens if you use the new rings with different inner rings? Nothing bad, it’s just that the upshifts aren’t much better than without ramps and pins. During downshifts, you’ll still benefit from the optimized tooth profiles that allow the chain to move smoothly off the big ring. (With downshifts, the chain always lands on the small ring, so it’s not important to have a matched pair of chainrings.) 

In a blog post ( https://www.renehersecycles.com/48-33-rings-for-rene-herse-cranks/ ) introducing the 48/33 rings, Jan tried to explain how the matching works:

Chains are made of ‘inner’ and ‘outer’ links. The pins on the large chainring work only if they mesh with an ‘outer’ chain link, right in the middle of the link (above). Inner links are recessed and won’t touch the pin.
The problem with a 48/32 is that both tooth counts are divisible by 16. This means that there are 16 possible positions for the pins. The bad news is that those 16 positions always hit the same chain link – either an inner or an outer – depending on how the chain is placed on the chainring. If the pins always hit inner links, they won’t help with the shifting at all.
In other words, the 16 possible pin positions on a 48/32 ring are duplicates. What you need are (at least) two distinct positions, so there’s always a pin that hits an outer link – no matter how the chain goes on the ring.

That is why we make a 48/33, where the pins always line up with outer (and inner) chainlinks, no matter how the chain is placed on the ring. That is how all ramped-and-pinned chainrings work: Half the pins don’t do anything, but the other half pick up the chain reliably. It doesn’t matter how the chain is positioned on the chainring – half the pins line up correctly.
Now you can see why ramped-and-pinned chainrings only work in pairs. That is why the big ring is marked not just with its own tooth number, but also with the small ring size for which it is designed.

I still don't understand the divisible-by-16 thing, but I do know that 34 works as well as 30 does with the 46T big ring, even though I can't explain why.  

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[Austin B.]

John, 

I suspect you'll need a wider BB than the 107 that came with your Sam. A while back I tried to install a VO 46/30 on my Sam it the 107 and didn't work. Had I fully tighten the crank arm the 30t ring would've been touching the chainstay.

I think VO specs a BB with a 118 width for their crankset which set up well and worked great. Not too wide on the Q--though now the crankset is on my Roadeo.

Austin

Sykesville, MD