Questions about an OLD Sam...

[Ben Mihovk]

Hey everyone!

I'll keep this as short as I can. There's a Sam up for sale that I'm interested in. The seller says it's a Waterford Sam, which I think is pretty neat. It's orange, double top tube, and does not have the cream head tube. I think it's neat!

So questions...

It's a 64cm frame. I found some old geometry charts and found that 64cm Sams have 91.5cm of standover height. My PBH is 93.5. Does anyone feel that this is WAY too close, even if I put some 38mm tires on it? If the group thinks Riv would be able to help, I'd happily call them (I just know they're probably quite busy). 

I currently have a MIT 59cm Atlantis which I absolutely love. It's my commuter and fun ride machine...I just hate loading into my car to drive it to fun trails around town. It's pretty heavy (34 pounds with fenders and racks but unloaded). Am I fooling myself by thinking that the Sam would be a little bit lighter and zippier bike for long unloaded crushed limestone trail rides? 

Any feedback or input would be great!

Thanks!

Ben "tempted by a Sam" in Omaha

[Johnny Alien]

Can it be lighter? Sure if you built it up that way. Your Atlantis could be lighter with stuff removed as well.  A double top tube 64cm steel bike will never really be a super light bike. I think the MIT Atlantis is a very similar bike to be honest. Rivendell said that the Waterford 64cm Sam frame would be good for a PBH of 94-101 so I would say that it would be too big. Some will say its fine just bury the seatpost and stem. It all depends on how you like a bike to fit.

[Johnny Alien]

Additionally the Sam is a great country bike and limestone trail rides are right up its alley. If I was looking for lighter and zippier with some light rail trail use I would look for RIvs in this order: Rambouillet/Romulus, Toyo AHH, Roadini, Soma San Marcos

[Ben Mihovk]

I appreciate the feedback! The sizing alone is making me think the bike won't work for me as well as I want. Seeing Riv's recommendation of 94 PBH and up has got me thinking I'll just pass. 

My weight issue is just really about transport. I love the way the Atlantis is as it is built up...sturdy, can carry a ton of stuff, and as an out-the-door bike to go riding in town, it can't be beat. Just playing around with the idea of a bike dedicated to throwing in the back of the Outback and taking out and getting dirty. 

-Ben

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[Ben Mihovk]

Oooh...good ideas on other bikes. I had a shot at Rambo before I bought my Atlantis...but a Roadini seems really interesting to me, too...and it takes up to 38mm without fenders. 

Great stuff, Johnny!

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[iamkeith]

I dont think the standover is a huge issue, but be aware that those first gen sams are really long.  They were one of - if not the first - riv model to use "expanded sizing" increments and sloped top tubes.  I think a 56 would have been most comparable to a (riv) normal 60 or 61 at the time.  If you cant find old geo on riv's site, use the wayback machine and search Renaissance Cycles.  They were a dealer at the time who posted lots of images.

[Garth]

I'm about the same leg length as you Ben and when I looked into a 64 Sam I knew it would be too big for my liking. If the top tube was level it'd be fine, but it's not.

Here's the geo chart from back then ...

On Monday, August 16, 2021 at 7:56:59 AM UTC-4 bjmi...@gmail.com wrote:

[David Person]

My 62 cm Sam from 2015 has a 90.5 cm standover My PBH 96 cm and I would not want the standover to be any higher.  In regards to how stretched out those early Sam's were, my 62 cm has a front center of 65.3 cm and chart above shows the 58 cm at 64 cm FS on the earlier models.  67 cm FS on the 64.  The seat tube and heat tube angles from both eras are the same.

[Ben Mihovk]

Great input from everyone...again, thanks to all of you!

I'm not going to pursue the Sam I'm eyeballing. Gosh, I wish it would work out...price is beyond right, seller is about the nicest person I've ever chatted with via e-mail, bike has very little wear...but I think it's too tall for me. 

I'm probably better off investing a little money and time tinkering with my Atlantis, but I'm going to keep an eye out for some of the models Johnny suggested as light trail bikes, particularly Romulus/Ramboulliet. If the right modern 62cm Hillborne comes up for sale anywhere, that might be an option, too.

Thanks again, everyone!

Ben "off the ledge" in Omaha. 

[Joe Bernard]

Ben, 

As my tired old back has learned, the issue with stuffing a racked-up long wheelbase Riv into the back of a car isn't just the extra weight but that it's wayyyy over there. That rear rack is at the end of a very long lever if you're loading rear-first. Can you get your Atlantis to cover commuter duties without the racks? 

Joe Bernard

[Eric Daume]

Rear first?! Always load handlebar first so the bar can fit down behind the front seats... at least with a bigger bike in a smaller car.

Eric

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[Joe Bernard]

Not for me, but my Impala is a very long sedan. Front wheel off, slide rear first until the tire hits the backs of the front seats. Works a charm but it helps big time if the rear doesn't have 2 or 3 pounds of rack attached. 

[Ben Mihovk]

You know, I think I probably can. I think a Slimsucker or a Bagboy would be more than enough room for what I carry on a heavy day (laptop, charger block, a few books, layers and gloves I'd take off when I get to work and maybe not wear on the ride home, etc...). 

My rack is a piece of junk...I got it from Linus with my first adult bike back in 2019 to see if I liked biking enough to invest in a Riv. It's alloy and no way is it as heavy as a quality Nitto rear rack...but I probably don't need on the bike with right saddle bag. 

I load rear first into my Outback...I pop off the front wheel, lift, and ease it in that way. The handlebars flop around too much and my fender gets caught on stuff when I try front first. 

[The Snag]

I ride a 64cm Sam (same orange Waterford as you're talking about) and a 62cm Appaloosa with a PBH of 94cm. You are not fooling yourself in thinking that the Sam is a bit lighter and zippier ride, the difference is noticable. I run the Appaloosa racked and fendered for commuting and use the Sam much as you described, for longer unloaded rides on mixed surfaces. Obviously a Ram or a Rom will be even lighter and zippier but I find the Sam, with its shorter wheelbase, to feel different enough from the Appaloosa to justify it in the stable. 

I prefer more frame under me than less and the standover of the Sam is fine for me. Attached is a pic of my setup, I believe the seat height is right about 83cm. Too large for you? I wouldn't say so....

[The Snag]

Well, it's not letting me post the pic....if you'd like me to send one to your email just let me know.

[Ben Mihovk]

I would like to see your setup! Thanks for taking the time to reply.