The ups and downs of my Clem Smith Jr

[Jim Bronson]

The good news about my Clem is that I've been riding it a lot more since I moved.  I now live on a busy 4 lane highway with no shoulders, so I was having to either brave the traffic to get to a side street or trail, or put the bike on the car, which I hate to do if I'm just going out for a fun ride.  I found a gravel path behind my condo complex that goes about a quarter mile to the next cross street to the highway.  From there I can cross the highway and access the regional mixed terrain trail system.  

The shortcut I found has got pretty rough big-ish rocks so I am loath to ride my more roadish Rivendells with their relatively fragile Compass tires.  The Clem though tackles this section with aplumb so I find myself wheeling it out for rides more than my other bikes.  I also find the traction just a little bit better on the pea gravel sections of the regional trails, where the slick Compass tires might kick out a bit going around a corner, the Clem and it's big Kendas track straight and true where I point my wheels.  It just feels a little less squirrely, so to say.

Which is a good segue into what I don't like.  I bought my 65 ClemH complete and one of the things that it came with that I am not super enamored of is the Bosco bars.  This may sound odd since they are 58cm wide (I think) but they feel too narrow and too far back for me.  I feel like I might hit them with my knees when I'm out riding.  I feel I would prefer a bar with less intrusion into my midsection.  I'd also prefer something a little less upright, which I think having a bar that's not so far into my midsection will take care of itself.  It just doesn't feel dialed in the way it is now.

Looking around on Rivendell's website, I like the look of the Billie bars.  I'm just not sure if 58 will be wide enough for my preference.  I'm thinking maybe because they flare out a lot more and much less back than the Boscos, that the 58 might be fine in this form factor.  Truth is my drop bar bikes are only 48cm so having a bar not so far back like the Billie would work I think

Or there is the Aherne+MAP handlebar which is 61.5 cm wide in the wider version.

https://www.ahearnecycles.com/shop/ahearnemap-handlebar if you're not familar.  I still have some store credit at Rivendell though so this route would cost me more out of pocket.

Anyone tried either of these bars on their Clem?

The other thing I don't like is friction shifting.  Does Microshift or SunRace make an indexed 8 speed thumbie?  I was hoping to re-use the thumb pod and just get the shifter part of it, but I can only find 8 speed in friction.  I could switch to Shimano 8 which would require a different thumb pod or go 9 speed indexed T09 Microshift thumbies which would require a 9 speed cassette and potentially a different derailer.

Any thoughts?

-Jim

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[sameness]

I have some SunRace 8sp indexed thumbies just sitting around, err... shiftless. Drop me a PM if you are interested.

Jeff Hagedorn

Los Angeles, CA USA

[Zed Martinez]

I'm currently riding Billies on my Clem. I've run them on two, actually, I recently just swapped down to a 45cm Clem after admitting to myself the 52cm was too big, and I've tried the Billies on both. I like them best flipped upside down, but my wrists are still pretty fussy after a couple years of being just a little too stretched out too often, so, I'm riding them the upright way for the moment. They feel notably narrower to me than the Boscos did (I had the 58cm also). More aggressive, in both positions.Maybe it's just because as you creep up the Billies they really do get narrower fast, while the Boscos run more or less straight through the bends. The by-the-stem flats of the Boscos were a little better for dipping out of the wind, but the on-the-bends hooks of the Billie are less stress on my wrists and I can stay in them longer. The Billies come back a little farther for the same stem length, so, if you're already banging knees they won't help much with that. You could chop'em, but part of the appeal is they have enough length for two full hands before the bends, so, you can have one position behind the brake lever and one in front. I do like that about them a lot. For me the Billie has the more comfortable flare angle of the two.

[Chris Lampe 2]

Have you considered a Jones H-Bar or the upcoming RBW Wavie bar?  I recently bought the Jones 2.5 (inches of rise) loop bar and I'm very impressed with it.  It offers many hand positions and it makes the steering much more confidence inspiring.  Judging from the recent RBW catalog, the Wavie bar looks to have a similar sweep angle and it's pretty wide at 66cm.  

[Eric Daume]

I had a Clem with the stock build, and like you, I found the Boscos weren't for me. Lots of real estate, none of it valuable. I much prefer my Jones Loop on my Clem. You'll have to get a 31.8mm stem, though. It's worth the minimal hassle.

I wasn't big on the soft index/friction shifting, either. I have indexed Sram grip shifter 9 speed on my bar now. That's a nice combination with the Jones bar.

Eric

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[Eamon Nordquist]

I would think Choco or Albatross bars would work great on a Clem. Perhaps the combination of how high and far back the Boscos come could be why you're feeling they aren't wide enough? I would think a bar that got a little closer to the stem would feel better.

Eamon

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

I also swapped out the Bosco bar for a Jones 2.5 riser loop and much prefer the angle and width of the Jones. My 65cm Clem H came stock with 55cm cromo Bosco and Tallux stem. I think I’d have been happier with the 58cm Boscomoose, but traded for a Jones before purchasing a new Boscomoose and now I’m not inclined too after settling in with the Jones.

[Jim Bronson]

I should have mentioned that, friction shifting seemed perfectly fine back in the day with my childhood 10 and 12 speeds in the 70s and 80s, but now it seems out of sync.  I don't know if it's the additional 2 gears in the back or I'm just spoiled by years of indexed shifting.

But anyway.

[Lum Gim Fong]

IME Friction works great withSilver Shifters, Microshift R10/Deore/SunXCD rear derailers with 7-speed cassette and 4.5mm spacer or 8 speed cassette, both on Shimano type 8/9/10 freehub body.

[iamkeith]

I got a 59cm clem frame as soon as it was released and have had a similar love/frustration experience as yours ever since. One one hand, it's the bike that seems most appropriate most of the time and is what i most want to ride. But there have been a few nagging setup issues. After changing the build multiple times, the one i still haven't resolved to satisfaction is that of the handlebars. However, I'll say that every time i try something OTHER than the boscos (including and especially the billie), i realize how much I actually like the bosco, and end up putting it back on.

I have the aluminum 58cm version on a 130mm negative rise technomic stem because i wanted to get them as low as possible. I'm actually able to take advantage of all that real estate because my stem allows me to angle the ends significantly downward. But they're still not quite far enough away even then, and my one big, deal-killer complaint is with their flexiness. Standing or sprinting or trying to throw the bike around on rough terrain is truly frustrating and sometimes even scarry to me. If the flex doesn't bother you, the billie might be worth trying, but I'll tell you right now that it's just as flexy AND even narrower.

My plan is to try the steel bull moose version next, even though it would raise the bars more than i want. If it eliminates the flex, I'll adapt to the height and be content. If not, I'll break down and do what others here have suggested: go for the sure-fired solution of putting a jones loop or, maybe, a surly open bar on it. The only reason i've fought against going that route is because so many others of my bikes - including my Jones itself - already have them.

[Joe Bernard]

Part of the problem is the first edition Clems used those weird ratchety shifters that weren't really friction, weren't really Power Ratchets. Mostly they just sucked. Also, in my 56-years-old case, I just can't hear bad shifting like I used to. Friction is more work than when I was a youngster banging giant stem levers on Schwinn Varsitys. Gimme them clicks, man!

[jeffrey kane]

Hey Jim -- I don't know what RD came with the Clem but I can't imagine why you couldn't make it work for 9 speed just by working the limit screw (and/or B-Screw depending on how wide of a range you wanted). I'm an Index-Only guy myself so depending on budget I'd look to Shimano 9 for the shifter and any number of inexpensive cassette options to clear that part of the problem up.

On Wednesday, September 5, 2018 at 4:51:21 PM UTC-4, Jim Bronson wrote:

[Jim Bronson]

That is so true Joe!  You don't get the clackety-clack when you are a little off like you did in the days of old.  Back when I was rocking my Schwinn Collegiate, there was no question if the gear lever needed a little more trim or not.  The feedback was highly audible.  Surely I don't hear as well now as I did when I was 12 or 13, but I'm not so deaf as to miss some clacking from the back of the bike.

No the failure mode with modern friction shifting when the lever's not trimmed right is your chain jumping all over the place.  At least it is in my case.  Maybe we just need a cassette with straight cut teeth like the old ones.  The new cassettes have all sorts of CAD created funny shapes and angles to aid in index shifting.

On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 11:46 PM Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Part of the problem is the first edition Clems used those weird ratchety shifters that weren't really friction, weren't really Power Ratchets. Mostly they just sucked. Also, in my 56-years-old case, I just can't hear bad shifting like I used to. Friction is more work than when I was a youngster banging giant stem levers on Schwinn Varsitys. Gimme them clicks, man!

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[Jim Bronson]

Jeffrey,

A list member was very kind to sell me his set of 8 speed indexed SunRace thumbies for a very reasonable price.  So it will be staying 8 for now.  I don't really feel the need for more gears on this bike as others.  I like to have a lot of gears on my brevet Rivendell so I can match effort to desired pace as closely as possible, but on the Clem, well, I'll get there when I get there. 

In case you were curious though, the standard derailer on the Clem completes is Grant's favorite derailer, the big-jockey-wheel Altus M310.

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[Adam Leibow]

I didn't read anyone else's replies so apologies if this is double information - if you can find an ultegra 8s bar end shifter, you can use this with a paul thumbie for an indexed 8speed thumb shifter setup. this being said,  a while back I ordered an 8spd thumb shifter from rivbike.com - it was either sunrace or microshift, can't remember, but it worked flawlessly with an Altus RD. 

I just bought a nitto UI-12 (31.8 threaded stem) and Sycip JJJ mountain bars. Going to put these on my clem. The nitto UI-12 stem really opens up a lot of bar options, and Sycip and Hunter have some great silver bar options with nice sweep and rise that would be great on a Clem. I'll post pics when I receive this stuff in the mail & get it installed. 

[Garth]

  

   For bars take look at either a Jones bar or the Surly Open bar. The black only Surly has 53 degree sweep(25.4 stem), the silver/black Jones(31.8 stem) 45 degrees. Surly is 66cm wide and the Jones is  66 or 71.

   I suspect much of not liking friction shifting has to do with the oddities of those particular/peculiar SunRace thumbies.  

[lconley]

I am in the process of converting my Clementine to the Jones bars with the 2.5 rise on a VO stem (currently Boscomoose). I think I will end up with silver shifters on the SunRace clamps. I love the way that the base on the SR clamps can be rotated.

Laing

Cocoa FL

On Friday, September 7, 2018 at 8:51:28 AM UTC-4, Garth wrote:

[iamkeith]

Just occurred to me that I had these all sitting out and handy. Here's a photo showing a 58cm bosco, a Billie and an Open.

[Jim Bronson]

Keith,

Would you be willing to take another picture of the Billie with the stem mount lined up (about 2" forward from where it is in the pic)?

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[iamkeith]

Hard to stack them because the bends are so different, but hopefully these will give you an idea. As I noted above, the Billie doesn't seem like a bad bar at all, but it feels narrower than the numbers suggest, and definitely narrower than the Bosco. The perspective in this photo de-emphasizes the difference, but it's also a function of where you actually grip it.

[iamkeith]

[Kainalu V.]

I've got a Clem with an Albastache mounted on a dirtdrop stem, it feels wide without being too terribly wide (I've got to get through tight squeezes daily) I think it works great on anything and is quite comfortable. I've attached three photos of that, one with a 9ish cm Technomic, one with the current set up with the dirtdrop, and an overall shot from the other night. But the bar I really really really love lately is one that's got some mixed reviews here, mostly negative (Joe Bernard hates them and was trying to give them away for a hamburger!), they are the Soma 3 speed mustache bars on my Rosco. Prior to them I was using a Bullmoose bar, but I wanted a lot of room to move forward and back and the Somas give that to me, and that they took mountain brake levers meant I could swap with ease. I've attached a couple pics of those as well. Whatever you do, you can't lose with a Clem Smith!

-Kai

BKNY

On Wednesday, September 5, 2018 at 4:51:21 PM UTC-4, Jim Bronson wrote:

[Jim Bronson]

Thanks Keith.  I like the hand position better with the Billie.  I wonder if its different enough?  But then on the other hand I don't want to make a radical change and alter things that are fundamentally good about the bike.  Some of the other bars I've looked at would be a big change.  The hands move with the Billie only an inch or two up and out.

I rode the Clem today 20 miles on mixed terrain and one of the things I realize I don't like about the Boscos is my hands are constantly sliding forward.  That happens some on my roadies too but the brake lever is kind of a hard stop.  On the Clem, I keep pushing the gear levers inadvertently.  Maybe with the Billie my hands would still be sliding forward?  Or maybe I just need different grips.

I included a pic where I put my hand about where I thought it might be with the Billie bars.

BONUS PICS:  Slightly muddy Clem pics.

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

Hi Jim,
Before I traded away my Bosco bars one thing I did find that helped make them a little more useful was to tilt them back/down a bit more and install some old road brake hoods (with lever removed) at the outer curve, essentially creating more of a ramp/hood position in front of the shifters. this helped stop/prevent sliding forward too far and created a more purposeful second grip area. I’ve seen some pics of others doing the same with those diacompe knob grips. I still found the 55cm a little too narrow and much prefer the wider flare and backsweep of the 66cm Jones loop... which seems to be more consistent with the other bars you are now considering vs Bosco. But should you find yourself going back to Bosco I thought I’d share that mod that worked well for me despite the width issue.

Regarding the shifting... I have experienced some ghost shifts and other finickiness with the stock Clem shifters but otherwise love the positioning and placement so I’ve managed to accept it for now but I’ll also likely consider moving to an indexed rear in the future if there is an indexed thumb shifter that will mount on the existing pod so I’ll be curious what you end up changing it to.
Best,
Brian Cole
Lawrenceville NJ

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

Of course there is also Grant’s ballcock washer mod that achieves the same thing to create a stop/rest for your hands. I just happened to have old road levers laying around and gave them a try with great success.

[Ash]

However, I'll say that every time i try something OTHER than the boscos (including and especially the billie), i realize how much I actually like the bosco, and end up putting it back on. 

I'm on the same boat!

In last couple of months I have tried 4 other bars (some multiple times) and settled back with 58cm Bosco.   

Other than various Riv handlebars, I have also tried Jones and Open bar.  Personally I like open bar better than Jones.  

Bosco is now my everyday bar.  Will swap to open bar if any ride comes up that'll involve a lot of rough patches.

I did not enjoy Boscos initially until I got the correct size stem (11cm Tallux).   Somehow, the Ergon cork grip (which I had liked on all other bars) does not work well with Bosco.  Round grips feel perfect for this bar. 

I'm guessing the stock Clem build is intended to make it a general purpose/utility bike.  Stem length tweaks aside, Tallux/Bosco combo is great for such bikes.  I remember reading Grant making an argument in favor of quill stems.  He says that they are better at reducing vibrations.   IMO, considerable micro flexing is inherent in Tallux and Bosco designs.  It is quite noticeable how much vibrations this combo absorbs.  With Bosco, I do not feel any numbness in wrist after full day's ride.   Of course, the downside of flexiness is that they are not suitable for rough tracks.

[Collin A]

I've had luck switching the Boscos out with the MAP bars on my 52h. The most useful/comfortable position on the Boscos were also the most inconvenient, I found. The MAPs makes me less upright, but I have more control in and out of the saddle, and feel like I am slightly more efficient in my pedaling by using my glutes more than my hamstrings.

I could probably do with 66cm length (what the Riv Wavie is supposed to be), rather than the 61.5 though, because I always find myself hanging on with the inside of my hands on the very ends of the bars.

Good luck!

[Alan H]

I'm probably the odd ball here, but like Zed, I realized a 52 was too big for me. I got a 45 and have it set up as a lite mountain bike with a Bullmoose bar (Nitto 901) and I absolutely love it.

-Alan

On Wednesday, September 5, 2018 at 1:51:21 PM UTC-7, Jim Bronson wrote:

The good news about my Clem is that I've been riding it a lot more since I moved.  I now live on a busy 4 lane highway with no shoulders, so I was having to either brave the traffic to get to a side street or trail, or put the bike on the car, which I hate to do if I'm just going out for a fun ride.  I found a gravel path behind my condo complex that goes about a quarter mile to the next cross street to the highway.  From there I can cross the highway and access the regional mixed terrain trail system.  

The shortcut I found has got pretty rough big-ish rocks so I am loath to ride my more roadish Rivendells with their relatively fragile Compass tires.  The Clem though tackles this section with aplumb so I find myself wheeling it out for rides more than my other bikes.  I also find the traction just a little bit better on the pea gravel sections of the regional trails, where the slick Compass tires might kick out a bit going around a corner, the Clem and it's big Kendas track straight and true where I point my wheels.  It just feels a little less squirrely, so to say.

Which is a good segue into what I don't like.  I bought my 65 ClemH complete and one of the things that it came with that I am not super enamored of is the Bosco bars.  This may sound odd since they are 58cm wide (I think) but they feel too narrow and too far back for me.  I feel like I might hit them with my knees when I'm out riding.  I feel I would prefer a bar with less intrusion into my midsection.  I'd also prefer something a little less upright, which I think having a bar that's not so far into my midsection will take care of itself.  It just doesn't feel dialed in the way it is now.

Looking around on Rivendell's website, I like the look of the Billie bars.  I'm just not sure if 58 will be wide enough for my preference.  I'm thinking maybe because they flare out a lot more and much less back than the Boscos, that the 58 might be fine in this form factor.  Truth is my drop bar bikes are only 48cm so having a bar not so far back like the Billie would work I think

Or there is the Aherne+MAP handlebar which is 61.5 cm wide in the wider version.

https://www.ahearnecycles.com/shop/ahearnemap-handlebar if you're not familar.  I still have some store credit at Rivendell though so this route would cost me more out of pocket.

Anyone tried either of these bars on their Clem?

The other thing I don't like is friction shifting.  Does Microshift or SunRace make an indexed 8 speed thumbie?  I was hoping to re-use the thumb pod and just get the shifter part of it, but I can only find 8 speed in friction.  I could switch to Shimano 8 which would require a different thumb pod or go 9 speed indexed T09 Microshift thumbies which would require a 9 speed cassette and potentially a different derailer.

Any thoughts?

-Jim

[tc]

Alan, the Ahearne+Map bar is very easy to like.  It just feels right.  Hard to find people who've tried it and don't like it.  I have the 610 version on my Atlantis.

It comes back far enough, but not as far back as Albatross or certainly Bosco.  To give you an idea, I have mine mounted on a 11cm Technomic stem, and the ends of the grips come back 3cm behind the back of the stem (towards the saddle).

It has a very natural-fitting flare, more than Albatross, and therefore handles off-road twists and turns better IMHO than a bar that doesn't flare as much.

The width enables great control, but you're not as splayed out as with typical mtn bar.  

If the Riv Wavie bar had been out, I would have tried that first; but that bar has been delayed until November-ish according to Spencer.  I still may try it.

I also love the Jones H bar. I had one on a Clem H I sold a while back.  I like it for the same reasons as the Ahearne-Map, and would choose one over the other based on width needed (Jones is wider), strength needed (Jones is more heavy duty), and looks (I liked how the Jones looked on the Clem, but not so much on the Atlantis).

Hope that helps,

Tom

[tc]

Sorry, meant to address to Jim...not Alan.

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

I just recently stumbled upon these.. anyone know if these SunXCD downtube shifters with 7/8sp indexed rear would install directly into the stock Clem shifter pods?

https://store.somafab.com/su78spdosh.html

Brian Cole

Lawrenceville, NJ

[Joe Bernard]

I'm going to guess yes because I mounted a Shimano downtuber on one to replace the original 8-speed SunRace thumbshifter. Or I can just send you that shifter for shipping cost..let me know if you want it.

Joe Bernard

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

Hi Joe,
Thanks, very generous and yes, I’m interested but unlikely to make the swap anytime soon (family/work and simply a matter not having the time to mess with my only complete and fully functioning bike at the moment) and this also seems to be exactly what The OP, Jim Bronson, might be lookIng for as well per his original post. So I’ll defer to Jim if he wants to take you up on the offer first and has a more immediate need... and if not I’ll happily take it off your hands and set it aside for a future friction > index swap on my Clem.

Love the look of the bullmoose’d Roadini by the way and don’t think I’ve seen pics of it on this group yet... is it still a work in progress? Of course, I may have missed it previously if you did post pics as I just haven’t been keeping up with all threads lately.

[Joe Bernard]

Brian, there's a thread around here somewhere called Orange Roadini with some pics. I finally finished it up last week, I'm going to get a ride tomorrow and take some new shots.

[Lester Lammers]

The Billie bars may be what you are looking for. I tries several bars, including Bosco and Aherne+MAP, on my MIT Atlantis. The Billie bars stayed. YMMV.

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

So I had a moment of clarity and it occurred to me while riding earlier today that with Riv's inboard shifter placement they've actually reversed the location of the left/right shifters to the opposite side so they may be oriented on the inside of the bar like that.  I now recall there being mention of that back when Clem was first released (maybe in the brochure?) but now I realize why the importance of friction on both sides... otherwise that puts indexed rear shifting on the left side of the bar if keeping the pods placed/oriented the same way.  Probably doable after an adjustment period even though I'd prefer the rear indexing on the right side but more importantly I definitely want to keep the pods where they are as it frees up the bar to slide my grip fore/aft more easily.  Thanks again, Joe, but don't think it would work out as intended so I'll stick with the stock shifters for now.

[Joe Bernard]

Yes, you gotta stay with friction with that shifter placement. The problem with those is they aren't really friction, it's kind of a "soft ratchety index" designed for IGH and front derailers. Riv doesn't spec them on Clems anymore, presumeably because people didn't like them much. Whatcha need is those nifty Silver Thumbies if Grant ever gets them made.

[Joe Bernard]

Brian, here's the Roadini pics. I added them to the original thread, too.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/m5CBYUsrzVVfGrYWA

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

Thanks Joe, and the Roadini looks great!!

It’s funny with those sunrace thumbies... the top 3 gears index for me at exactly two clicks each but after that it deteriorates and I’ve found for downshifts I’ll often just pull the lever and overshoot by a click or two or three so I could upshift in pure friction until I find the right spot. Even then in a few of the mid-low gears I’ll still get some ghost shifts now and then but I’ve just developed the habit of staying completely seated during climbs and going into the lowest gears to avoid any sudden slips under load. I’m mostly riding with my 14mo. old these days and going slow and steady during climbs anyway but this also allows enough time to react and sense the ghost shift just as it begins and avoid any mishaps.

[Ash]

This is a very nice Roadini build.

Now I see why you are looking for black wheels!  Would love to see the pictures when those wheels are on.

My Atlantis is almost ready with all black components, except the headset, for which I have to take it to a shop.  Have not had time.

Q: Curious when do you use to large chainring there?  Ever?

Those are cool fenders btw.

[Joe Bernard]

"Large chainring"

HA! I tried it once just cuz it's there. It's definitely there 😬