Dropbars vs sweptback bars and saddle height

[maxcr]

Hi Everyone,

Asking for your collective advice / experience here.

I recently installed a Ron's Ortho bar on my Bombadil and haven't been able to dial the handlebar angle, reach and my overall posture to make it comfortable on my wrists while putting me in a position where I feel like I can put down enough power.

For context, the 60cm Bombadil has a longer effective top tube than I'd normally choose (63 vs 59) so I thought the Ortho bar would be a perfect match. I initially installed it with a 135 Ritchey Force stem but ended up swapping it for a Nitto 120 (I might need to go even shorter!)

Anyway, this morning was very windy and I felt like I was pedaling way too hard and barely moving so I stopped and tweaked some things:

First I angled the bars a bit less aggressively since I had them really pointing down. I also rotated the ergo grips to match my natural wrist position for support.

Then I lowered my saddle about 2cm and installed it pointing up a bit more than before. 

This got me wondering, are you supposed to lower the saddle when using sweptback bars? Since your position changes and you bend your upper body way less from when going from dropbars to more of a sitting position with sweptback bars.

It definitely feels better with the lower saddle but I'm still not as comfortable on this bike as I'm on my 58 Hunqapillar with Jones H Loop bars. 

What else would you try? Should I try to get my saddle further back and my handlebars even closer with a shorter stem? higher handlebars?  Are the orthos just too wide?

This whole fit thing is an enigma to me and I would love your thoughts.

Max

[Patrick Moore]

There are so many variables that this remark is no more than a guess, but here it is in case it’s useful:

You said “pedaling way too hard and barely moving,” and asked about saddle setback. I learned long ago that I need sufficient saddle setback (with respect to bottom bracket; I measure with plumbline from nose of saddle to center of crank spindle) in order to make enough torque and avoid feeling that I am “losing the pedal stroke at top dead center.” I went from a too-forward saddle to a shoved-back saddle — your own adjustment would depend on your particular fit and pedaling style — and found that pedaling seemed much more efficient and felt much more natural.

Once you get your saddle in the right place, then you are ready to readjust your bar as required. 

Again, FWIW.

And as always, Peter Jon White at Peter White Cycles has a very good article on bike fit (starting with saddle position) buried somewhere among the pages.

Good luck, and let us know what happens.

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[Dan]

The Ortho bars are LONG. For me the trick has been unlocking the full potential of being able to move your hands back and forth along the bars as needs permit. 

One: I have a slight angle down. 

Two: I have them low enough so that the ends are around saddle height. Uncle Ron runs them even slightly lower. This is key. 

Three: I have long BMX grips (140mm) that push the levers further along the bars. 

Four: I have brake levers with low profile clamps (Paul) and thumb shifters mounted upside down. 

The combination of the above allows me to move my hands according to my needs. I might have my hands just behind the clamps generally, or on top of them if I’m going a bit faster. Climbing up hill, I grab the bars near the bends. At the end of the day when I’m tired or when I just want to ride chill, I hold the bars near the ends. Even though I’ve set them low-ish it’s still quite upright because of how far back they come. 

You’ll notice I didn’t mention saddle height, because I don’t think it’s relevant. I also think that shortening the stem might be a mistake, as it will lessen your ability to put down power! 

[J J]

Hey Max, 

I had a similar experience with a Ron's Ortho bar on a Hunqapillar. I went through a series of adjustments to try to make it feel right: stem height up and down, angle of grip, saddle fore and aft and saddle angle up and down, seat post higher and lower. Regardless of the various combinations of adjustments, my arms and shoulders felt too splayed out. As you and I have discussed on general issues of Hunq and Bomba fit, I'm a big guy with broad shoulders. I never imagined Orthos would be too wide, but splayed didn't work. 

I tried very hard to like the bark, as so many people love them. But what I finally figured out was that the bar itself was the problem. It didn't make sense to readjust everything that I know already works for me to accommodate the Ortho, especially saddle height and saddle angle. When I finally acted on this epiphany and tried an Albatross (which felt great) and then went back to the Boscomoose (which felt even greater), I promptly sold the Ortho. It is one bar that I know there is no point for me to ever mess with again. 

Another thing about the Ortho that is not strictly related to fit and adjustment was the amount of flex is displayed. Again, a lot of people seem to love the Ortho because of this extreme flex. For me it made riding feel unnerving and sometimes even treacherous, especially when there was slippage, which I could not avert even though I tried various stems, including a four-bolt faceplater. 

So all in all, I had a rather unpleasant experience with the Ortho bar. But it taught me to appreciate the virtues of the various 'Moose bars, with the integrated stems. The extra stiffness feels better, more secure, and safer to me. I ride both 54 and 58 Boscomoose bars on different bikes and like them equally. Fortunately for me, the Angle of Boscomoose bars works just right for my hands and arms. The lack of angle adjustability, the biggest drawback of the bars, is thus a nonissue for me. 

Good luck figuring it out! 

Jim

[DavidP]

My experience with Orthos mirrors Dan's. I have my bar angle set to match the saddle angle with the ends just a bit lower than saddle height. My shifters are placed up inside the bends to allow the full use of the bar. This bike is comfortable and always feels faster than I think it should.

-Dave

[Minh]

hey JJ, 

as a side question, can you get into the difference between albatross and bosco?  I'm generally happy with my alba setup, but curious about Billie or Bosco.  What do you think matters most, saddle height, reach, TT length?

On Tuesday, November 12, 2024 at 4:34:27 PM UTC-5 J J wrote:

[J J]

hey Minh. I think the main differences between the Albatross and the Boscomoose is adjustability. I should emphasize Boscomoose because I've never tried a non-Moose Bosco bar. You have a lot more possibilities for adjustment with the Albatross and a stem than a 

But here's what I think your question is after: a regular non-integrated-stem (non-Boscomoose) Bosco bar mounted to a regular stem would have more rise and more sweepback than an Albatross bar mounted to the same stem in the same stem position. So you can more readily get more upright on a Bosco than an Alba. I think reach (perhaps it's better to say effective top tube length?), matters more than saddle height and actual top tube length. Saddle height height remains constant regardless of the other factors.

Whether one needs or wants the extra rise and and sweepback that a Bosco offers on a given bike really depends on one's anatomy, bike setup, and type of riding. Boscomoose works for me on Hunqapillars and Toyo Atlantises.

I hope this helps but I'm afraid it might just cloud things more!