Re: [RBW] Sidepull brakes versus Cantilevers

[Brian Hanson]

I have now ridden most of the brake types out there, and on my Rivs, I've had Silver sidepulls, Paul Racer centerpulls, and Tektro 720 cantis.  All of them have stopped without issue - I've locked up all three at times doing hard panic stops, and have not had any spills (other than unclipping, but we don't talk about that in this group...)

As for maintenance, by far my favorite are the Silver sidepulls.  Super easy to install/adjust.  Uber simple to release when I change a tire. 

If you want pure power, as in I'm ripping down a steep singletrack and need to slow down or die, I would go with V-brakes or hydraulic discs.  Big knobby tires have more bite, so you need more brake (Mechanical Advantage) to make them break free and skid.  Road tires don't need as much MA to skid...

I am of average height/build for reference.  If you are a Clydesdale, you would be best served by another opinion from a heavy rider.

Brian Hanson

Seattle, WA

On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:25 AM, john <john...@comcast.net> wrote:

I've been searching the archives for a specific topic which I have not found. Excuse me if I missed it.

Due to the fact that an auto struck me while riding, ruining the original the fork of my Sam Hillborne (with cantilever studs), I got a replacement fork (Thanks Rivendell!) which didn't have the studs for canti's.

Thus, I'm now using Tektro 559 sidepulls, rather than Tektro 720 canti's, which was spec'd on the bike.

I've read much about types of brakes, their various attributes, and etc. Some argue cantilevers have more stopping power (greater mechanical advantage) than sidepulls. Some argue side pulls are simple, elegant, and easier to adjust. Some say, racers have been using sidepulls for years, why not me? Others say neither option is the best; centerpull brakes are the way to go. Then, there is the linear pull brake (V brake), which is another type of cantilever, I believe. Not to mention disc brakes, both mechanical and hydraulic....

Although I value statistical analysis (Bike Quarterly), I prefer to hear from people who actually ride certain brakes, and what the like, and dislike. I'm not enough of a tech-minded person to stay with all the detail of mechanics.

The question is this: Those of you who have used both cantilevers and sidepulls on a Rivendell frame (especially on a Sam Hill, but any will do, I think), which do you prefer for stopping power (not aesthetics), and why?

That is to say, if you were to spec a new bike, and it were a "road" bike, not intended for touring with massive loads but for day rides, multiday tours, even touring any distance with less than 50 pounds, which brakes would you choose, and why?

I'm interested in knowing why Rivendell changed their choice of brakes on the stock Sam Hill. from a cantilevered bike to a side pull spec'd bike. Perhaps they save cost in frame production? Perhaps they prefer sidepulls? Perhaps they needed to purchase many of their designed Tektro 559's in order for Tektro to make them?

In any case, I'd be curious to hear what folks have to say on the topic. As for myself...I'm still on the fence. I like the sidepull's looks much better. I like the ease of adjustment. I think their stopping power is not as great as the cantilevers - at least compared to my Tektro 720 cantilevers with yokozuma pads. But they're close. Close enough? Depends on how steep the hill, how much weight is on the bike, and etc., of course. In the end, I know it's a very personal choice.

Thanks.

John

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[Cyclofiend Jim]

AASHTA* - http://sheldonbrown.com/brakes/index.html

And it's worth clicking through to the Jobst article on brake types here - http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/brakes.html

All modern brakes work.  I don't think folks are really "arguing" for one or the other type.  There are certainly tradeoffs - for example, canti's are great for using with fenders and giving maximum tire clearance, but can be a bit fiddly to adjust. It's been nice to see a resurgence of interest in center pulls, as they have the "balanced" aesthetic of canti's, yet the svelte profiles of the sidepull.  And the variety of sidepulls (thinking back to the  Grant "Wish Lists" of old Readers and remembering how he had hoped for something other than the then-current spate of uber-short-reach models...)

I've got canti's on the QB and Silver sidepulls on the Hilsen.  Never thought about one being better at stopping than the other. If I had the urge to upgrade (and somehow seldom do until the brakes are utterly, thoroughly worn out), I'd lean towards the stuff Paul makes.

- Jim

*AASHTA = As Always, Sheldon Has The Answer

[Jay in Tel Aviv]

I am quite happy with the performance of the inexpensive v-brakes on my Sam, but prefer the feel of the side pulls that came on my Brompton.
In your situation I would try the Silvers for tire clearance.

Jay

[cyclotourist]

You received all good answers John. To echo what others wrote, and add my own thoughts, I find side-pulls look much nicer than cantis or Vs. As Jim wrote, center-pulls split the difference, and probably would be my choice on a bike that could fit them. Center and side pulls have the disadvantage of not being able to open wide enough for really wide tires compared to cantis/Vs. They also have a bit more flex in them when the arms get long. That's not a performance issue as they stop the same, but some riders don't like that feel in the brake system.

So for me, I'd pick center or sides if they fit the tire I wanted to use. Easier to set up and look nicer. Performance difference is negligible in my experience.

Cheers,
David

[jimD]

+1 on the Silver side pulls.

-JimD

[Dan Abelson]

I think the key issue is tire and fender clearance. For up to 700 x 35 I like silver side pulls. I like the modulation, stopping power and most importantly ease of adjustment. For wider tires I prefer cantilever or v brakes. Once you go wider than 35 fender clearance can be an issue and depending on your brake levers you may have to deflate your tire to remove it with side pulls.

Dan Abelson
St Paul, MN

[Peter Pesce]

I've never had a bike fail to stop because of the type of brake on it. (Of course I don't do radical MTB stuff or descend mountain passes in the rain with a full touring load, so YMMV).

It's usually just comes down to clearances, aesthetics and personal preference.

-Pete in CT

[René Sterental]

John,

 

Based on your post, I'd say that if you want to improve the brake feel/power a bit more, replace the front sidepull with a Paul Racer. It will also look better in the sense of looking more similar to your rear canti brakes. That being said, I have a front Racer and a rear Silver on my Betty and I can't really say that the difference is that significant. In fact, the feel from the front Neo-Retro compared to the rear Touring brakes is much greater. So in the end, if you're happy with how the front sidepull performs, and don't care about the looks, just leave it.

 

René

[Matthew J]

Dual pivot side-pull brakes work very well.  V Brakes provide the best rim brake stopping bang for the buck.  Some day I hope to have a bike set up with those swell Paul mini-vs.

[jinxed]

I'll chime in on at least one comparison. I originally built the Hilsen I owned with Silver side pulls, but later "upgraded" to Pauls center pulls. I thought this was going to be brake nirvana, but to be completely honest, I felt the Silvers out performed the Pauls in every way. The Silvers were FAR easier to set up, looked better, opened up as wide as the Pauls, AND they modulated and stopped better. Despite having set up literally hundreds of brakes, I was constantly tweaking the Pauls to no satisfaction. Had I not ended up on a cantilevered bike, I would have gone back to side pulls no question.

[Mike Schiller]

another opinion....slightly different.  It depends on where you live. If you live a hilly or mountainous area I would choose cantilever or brazed on center pulls every time. I think Silvers are mushy compared to either. They are easy to install and adjust, but don't have the stopping power of properly adjusted canti's. The best rim brake I've ever used are the brazed on Paul Racers, but those require the addition of specially located posts and a new paint job.

 The new mini V's look promising too, I just don't care for the appearance. 

I wish Grant would put canti's back on the Sam and add them to a batch of Hilsens sometime. I think he mentioned it costs extra to put the posts on. 

~mike

[Joe Bernard]

Compared to the single-pivot Dia-Compe sidepulls on my Bridgestone RB-2, everything we have now works great. This type of brake was standard equipment on road  bikes back in the heyday of Campagnolo "speed reducers", which was market-speak for "they're light, but they don't work".

[Matthew J]

Difference between brazed on Pauls and bolt on is night and day.  I cannot recommend bolt ons.  Too much money for the stopping power you get.

[Matthew J]

> If you live a hilly or mountainous area I would choose cantilever or brazed on center pulls every time. I think Silvers are

> mushy compared to either.

 

If you prefer the look of cantis, well set up they are a good choice.  V brakes are a lot easier to set up and keep working right.  Good Vs stop as well or better than good cantis.

[Bobish]

Sorry about the "break" / "brake" switcheroos.

Perry

On Apr 5, 2013, at 6:53 AM, bobish <bob...@gmail.com> wrote:

> There was a day when side pulls were viewed as cheap and tacky. "Racing" bikes had center pulls and touring had cantis. Then, racing bikes started to get better side pulls and all was pretty well until they went to short reach models and reduced tire and fender clearance to nothing. Now that better than ever, longer reach side pulls are available, I see no reason not to make them your first choice for the set up you describe. I've used every type of break and they all stop the bike just fine. The considerations are aesthetics and clearance so if you like side pulls, that's the ticket.
>
> Perry "loves side pulls for their no fuss minimalist appeal" Bessas
>
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[PATRICK MOORE]

Since we are contradicting each other here, I'll say that the single pivots I've used, including Royal Grand Comps, work as well as anything else I've used, as long as they are mated with (1) aero levers, (2) Matthauser pads, and (3) decent housing, with interrupted housing to the rear.

I use single pivots on my fixies, in front only, and I certainly don't feel underbraked.

Dual pivots, properly set up cantis, V brakes, and discs require less hand pressure, but the difference is slight.

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[Michael Hechmer]

I have only limited experience withV brakes but lots with all the others.  The only ones without good stopping power have been Shimano 550br cantis.  I like my Neo retros and find them pretty easy to live with.  The Ram currently has Racer M's and the  tandem  posted Racers.  Center pulls outperform side pulls in fender clearance and I would add one other variable to the conversation.  Cantis tend to get very dirty, because the pivots sit below fenders, while center pulls, sitting above the fender remain much cleaner.

Michael

[Eric Platt]

Take this with a total grain of salt - my new Sam Hillborne my first bike in 30 years with sidepull brakes.  Everything has been either canti, vee, or disc.  There is some noticable flex on the Tektro sidepulls, but they still stop well.  Probably doesn't hurt my Hillborne has old Dia-Compe SS-7 brake levers which are very sturdy. 

 

For the original poster, I actually like the idea of running a cantilever in back and sidepull in front.  That way you can keep the same brake levers.  Shouldn't be a problem operation wise, and would make for a unique looking bike.

 

Do think that V brakes are the bees knees and have a lot more stopping power, but can understand if some folks don't like them.  Do have them on both my SimpleOne and Surly LHT. 

 

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 8:12 AM, samh <rbwo...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> The only ones without good stopping power have been Shimano 550br cantis.<

I have those cantis on my Riv touring bike.  The don't work very well the way I have them set up: as low as my racks will allow the straddle cable to go.  Descending while fully loaded, the stopping distance is about 100 feet.

[Jan Heine]

Much of your brake preferences depend on how and where you ride. Just like cars, where racing on a track probably would make my car's brakes overheat within a lap or two, but on the road, tire adhesion is the limiting factor (hence the usefulness of ABS for most drivers, as it optimizes tire adhesion).

Most cyclists never brake very hard, and most brakes will work fine. As somebody pointed out, all brakes will stop you - eventually. However, at least on dry pavement, there is so much tire adhesion that the brake becomes the limiting factor. Assuming skilled riders who brace themselves against the handlebars and shift their weight back, better brakes will result in shorter stopping distances. (So does lower speed!)

On your Rambouillet, the tires aren't very large. A well-designed dual pivot brake will get you plenty of brake power. If you were trying to span a Hetre with fenders, then I'd definitely recommend brakes that have brazed-on pivots and thus shorter arms, whether centerpulls or cantilevers.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
http://www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

[Peter Morgano]

I have endoed on the bike path with 30 year old centerpulls, someone came right across the path and I could not see getting around them. I have also skidded out on old sidepulls.  I luckily have not had that "opportunity" with canti's though.

On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 6:00 PM, Nick Payne <nick....@internode.on.net> wrote:

From personal experience I would say that with good brakes, centre of gravity is the limiting factor, particularly on a bike with no luggage on the rear. You can brake hard enough to go over the handlebars. I've done it when brainless motorists have put me on a collision course with them, and I've done it in races when riders have fallen in front of me. And some of those endos were long enough ago that the brakes I was using the old single pivot sidepulls.

On Monday, 8 April 2013 03:45:06 UTC+10, Jan Heine wrote:

[...] However, at least on dry pavement, there is so much tire adhesion that the brake becomes the limiting factor.

[PATRICK MOORE]

Back in high school, circa 1972, there was a school clown who would gather a few laughs by deliberately flipping a Schwinn Varsity bar-over-front-wheel simply by slamming on the front brake at 10 mph.