Upright / Relaxed / Swept-Back - Style of Riding

[Jay]

I was always aware of bikes with a very relaxed geometry / setup, and it wasn't until I started seeing Rivendell bikes and watching youtube videos of people riding them that I really thought about it - is it more comfortable than drop bars, even if I have a more neutral (not aggressive) position on the bike (i.e., bars close to level with saddle)?  Would this be a good option for just cruising around, but for 1-2 hours?  If I didn't get along well with flat bars on mountain bike, would swept back bars be better?

I'm going to ramble a bit here, my apologies in advance.  I haven't thought long enough about this to formulate my question succinctly.  Hopefully you get where I'm coming from.

Quick background

- been riding a little over 20 years (closing in on 50!)

- started with mountain biking (hardtail, singletrack); moved to road; tried mountain biking two more times (I love being in nature) but didn't like the thrill/danger, and hated the idea of driving to the trail head; have been mainly on the road for last 15 years, though with 10 years of 'gravel' bikes/riding

- I've had ongoing issues with my cervical spine (nothing serious) and this leads to some problems when riding in any sort of aggressive position on the bike; I see a chiro regularly; stretch a lot; workout / strength training; have had numerous bike fits

- I have a Roadini, Salsa Fargo and a road bike (25mm tires, but custom made and really does fit like a glove, for road)

- I don't care about performance at all, I just love riding bikes, in particular when roads are not busy, or on trails, gravel roads, etc.

On a good day (75% of the time), I can ride any of these bikes and during the ride I feel pretty good (little to no pain), maybe a bit of pain after (could be neck/shoulders, but anywhere else really), and after stretching I feel great in a 1/2 to full day.  I ride 4-5x a week, workout 1-2 times spring-fall and more in the winter.  

But at least once a week, and maybe twice, I'll be riding, sometimes tired as it's after work, and within an hour I'm running low on energy and probably start to develop a bad posture on the bike, over-using my arms which causes problems in my neck and shoulders, leading to upper body aches/pains (while riding, and after).  Takes a lot of stretching and awareness to reset.  This is what I'm trying to resolve (move from 75% to 99%)

My guess is that even with a bike like the Roadini or Salsa, with bars about level with the saddle, and even with a professional fitting on each, when I want to ride but I'm lacking energy, it goes poorly.  But is that because these bikes are "kind of" aggressive (when compared to say a spine angle closer to 70% and swept back bars)?  Or is it simply a combination of age, history of some 'issues', low on energy and thus bad posture kicks in, and would any bike be a joy to ride, or should I just go for a walk on those days!?

I would love to hear from those who ride both drop bars and also swept back (or similar) in a way more relaxed geometry, or those who transitioned to mainly this style, because it almost fully resolved your issues, if they're anyway similar to mine.  On a day when you're not feeling it, but you have to commute or just love to ride, do you leave the drop bar bike in the garage and hop on your more relaxed bike, and thus avoid most of the issues you would have had on the other (slightly more aggressive) bike?

[Doug H.]

When I bought my Clem Smith Jr it was a revelation in riding. I had ridden mostly drop bars for many years and like you I would have shoulder and neck pain after long rides. The Clem with Tosco bars and an upright riding position solved my aches and pains immediately. I also discovered I could ride for 3 hours without pain and my mileage wasn't much less than with a "road bike". I recently bought a Roadini with drop bars. The bars were up nice and high so I don't think I would have experienced neck or shoulder pain. But, I decided to swap the drop bars for Albatross bars. Swept back bars are my preferred and only bars now.  This is what works for me but I don't recommend it to people necessarily. I just share my experience and preferences if asked. Another thing about an upright posture is being able to take in the scenery better as I ride. Like I said, it was a revelation for me and has transformed my riding experience.

Doug

[Richard Rose]

What Doug said, almost exactly x2.

Long time Roadie here but transitioned to MTB about 15 years ago - now 69. Never had serious issues with properly fit road bike. But after a lot of MTB riding it never felt right again. However, I started having pretty serious hand/wrist issues with straight MTB bars. Bought my Clem to have something comfortable to ride when not mountain biking. Instantly comfortable for all rides/surfaces and for up to six+ hours. So I got a Gus to have a swept back MTB. Both are superbly comfortable. Now I am back riding road/gravel when I do not want to drive to the trail. But when I do drive to the trail it’s more fun than ever.

Sent from my iPhone

On May 8, 2024, at 9:45 PM, Doug H. <dhansf...@gmail.com> wrote:

When I bought my Clem Smith Jr it was a revelation in riding. I had ridden mostly drop bars for many years and like you I would have shoulder and neck pain after long rides. The Clem with Tosco bars and an upright riding position solved my aches and pains immediately. I also discovered I could ride for 3 hours without pain and my mileage wasn't much less than with a "road bike". I recently bought a Roadini with drop bars. The bars were up nice and high so I don't think I would have experienced neck or shoulder pain. But, I decided to swap the drop bars for Albatross bars. Swept back bars are my preferred and only bars now.  This is what works for me but I don't recommend it to people necessarily. I just share my experience and preferences if asked. Another thing about an upright posture is being able to take in the scenery better as I ride. Like I said, it was a revelation for me and has transformed my riding experience.

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[Kim H.]

@Jay,

I have been a roadie for 53 years. I retired my road bike sixteen years ago. I was growing old. I became tired of riding in the drops. I wanted to ride upright. My posture in my neck and shoulders were hunched over.

Over the many years, it became a struggle with me trying to find a bicycle that I could fall in love with again. I went through about four different bicycles.

In the fall of 2022, I purchased my first Rivendell Clem Smith Jr. "L" bicycle. It was a 59cm. Over the course of a little over a year, I concluded that the 59cm size was not working for me. It was too large. I sold it. I found and bought a 52cm Clem as a "Demo" at RBW headquarters last November.  

Since then, I have adapted very well in riding the 52cm Clem. It fits me a lot better than the 59cm. I am very happy with it. I have the Nitto Bosco 58cm handlebars. These bars I really love for an upright riding position. I have zero weight bearing down on them. All my weight is on the seat and back tire. When I come home from my rides, I feel my posture is a lot straighter, than before.

I ride mostly pavement on the nearby trails near where I live. Occasionally, I will go off road, when the feeling for adventure strikes me.

The only problem I have is a personal issue in discomfort with the loss of subcutaneous fat on my bum riding my saddle at 69 years old. I am nearing a resolution with optimism.

Kim Hetzel.

As one grows older, the handlebars get higher and the gears get lower.

[Tim Bantham]

There is a lot to unpack here but I think I get the basic gist of what you are asking. For reference I ride a drop bar AHH, a drop bar Sam and a Billie bar'd Platy. I'm an older rider and I too suffer some aches and pains while riding. Nothing debilitating but it is noticeable. Sometimes more than others. Like you I experience some aches in my C spine between the shoulder blades. This is from holding my head in a position to see the road in front of me. I am also seated at a computer most of the day while working which can be harmful to your posture if you aren't vigilant.

 I am not so certain your pain is related to not maintaining a good posture on the bike while riding. I'm not a medical professional and I don't think you would come here for medical advice. At least I hope not LOL!

I would want to know what you are doing off the bike. You didn't say what you did for work but if are spending your days sitting at a desk and then you hop on your bike to go ride. Your body is in a hunched position all day long and then you are in the same position while you pedal. If that were the case I could see how some aches and pains could crop up.

Riding an upright style bike on days where you aren't feeling it may help but I'd be more inclined to shorten your ride or not ride at all. Also pay attention to your posture off the bike. Having awareness of your posture during your day to day life will be more beneficial then only making those adjustments while riding.

[Jason Noonievut]

Thanks for the responses!  Keep’em coming

Tim had some good questions, I’ve tried to answer these below:

“…off the bike?”

- I have a desk job but I use a sit / stand desk.  Years ago when I got this, it was a revelation, and really helped a much worse than now, neck; however, I notice my legs get tired when I’m standing, and again, if I go for a ride after work, and I’ve been sitting/standing 50-50, my tired legs, I believe contribute to feeling sluggish on the bike, and perhaps a poor posture as I have limited power

- I walk a lot, stretch, and practice good posture off the bike

I thought I would add that I visit my chiropractor for an adjustment every three weeks. The days shortly after, I am more comfortable on the bike.  For example, two days after my last adjustment I did a road ride with my friend, 85km with wind and even snow, I felt great. A few days ago I did a 60km ride with my friend on a perfect day with very little wind, and was really sore.  I have a chiro appointment tonight.  As I get close to the end of that three weeks, I can feel more pain and thus attribute what’s happening to the spine in the three weeks in between adjustments.  This is the closest I have to a good diagnosis!

Jason

On May 9, 2024, at 7:50 AM, Tim Bantham <tba...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[DavidP]

If you don't have a cruiser-y / townie type bike for more laid back or utilitarian rides, and you have the space and ability to have another bike then I'd definitely recommend an additional bike for this. Though if you have a couple of aggressive drop bar bikes it's certainly possible to convert one for this use.

Albatross and Billie bars are versatile because they can be setup to offer a range of back angle positions depending on where you place your hands.  I've found that using a stem 30-40mm longer than my drop bar stem puts the grips of the Albatross bar in a more upright position than the tops of the drop bar, and moving my hands up to the bends feels like riding on the hoods. You can get even lower by moving into the hooks of the Albatross bar and bending your elbows.

Tosco bars (which I have on my Platypus) can do similar things but are just a bit less roadish.

On most sweptback bars my primary cruising position is usually between the grips and the bends with the heel of the my hand resting on the grips, the palm of my hand over the brake lever clamp (a low profile clamp is good here), and a couple of fingers resting on/forward of the brake lever body.

You asked if sweptback bars might be good for riding 1-2 hours. They certainly are, but with the range of positions they offer they are also good for rides even longer than that!

-Dave

[Wesley]

Hi Jay,

I'll second what's been said here and by Rivendell: the Albatross is the swept-back bar that is least radical / closest to a drop bar.

I first put an Albatross bar on a bike of mine in 2007 and have kept them on at least one bike ever since. Unlike the other swept-back bars that Riv sells, they have a great hand position that is slightly forward of the stem clamp (demonstrated here): 

It's comfy for long hours on the bike. Like you, I find flat bars uncomfortable (they pain my wrists). With Albatross bars, my wrist position feels neutral and natural, a lot like on the lever tops on drop bars. The Albatross bar is on my everyday bike, with the drop bar road bike being used only when I want a lighter bike.

-Wes 

[lucky...@gmail.com]

Fellow older person here. I have avoided owning a “fast bike” for years due to drops killin’ me, but I recently acquired this sporty XO-1 and the Albatross bar is perfect for it! I might not actually be fast but I *feel* fast now (compared to my racked and fat-tired Atlantis) so that’s really what matters. Albatross is the GOAT. 

On May 9, 2024, at 09:50, Wesley <brooks...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Jay,

I'll second what's been said here and by Rivendell: the Albatross is the swept-back bar that is least radical / closest to a drop bar.

I first put an Albatross bar on a bike of mine in 2007 and have kept them on at least one bike ever since. Unlike the other swept-back bars that Riv sells, they have a great hand position that is slightly forward of the stem clamp (demonstrated here): 

<IMG_2689.jpg>

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<IMG_2689.jpg>

[Matthew Rebmann]

***Reposting with a correction***
A few things to keep in mind:

-Riding in an upright position will recruit different muscles in your legs and butt, you may feel it to be a bit harder to ride fast in this position. You will also catch more wind which can slow you down a bit. 

-You should keep in mind the steering axis. If your stem is too short, you can create overly "whippy" steering. Making sure your stem is long enough will resolve that issue. 

-You'll also likely want a wider saddle.

I have a "drop bar" Surly Midnight Special. It's a great bike but I'm not currently in love with the position even though my handlebars are mounted higher than my seat. I find that my "golfers elbow" is aggravated by the hand position and  I rarely use the drops. I'm also not a racer, I don't enjoy super aggressive position in which is why I have my bars mounted higher than my saddle. I acquired a Long Haul Trucker that is a small for me if I built it with drop bars (albatross bars,) but it's absolutely perfect as a swept back build. I'm in a fully upright position on it and I use it as my sometimes work-commuter, bop around town bike. I feel I have the best viewing angle for checking my surroundings on this bike. I recently completed a build of a Velo Orange Polyvalent with their Wave bars. I'd say it's right in the middle of a fully upright and neutral drop bar position (not dissimilar to my angle on the Midnight Special.) It's currently my absolute favorite ride. 

If you have a bike you don't mind spending money to convert, I highly recommend it. As Igor from Velo Orange says "change your bars, change your life." He highly advocates for switching things up. If you have the dough to spend on a new bike built this way, I think the Platypus or the Clem-L are calling your name somewhere in the distance...

Midnight Special photo is a little outdated. I no longer have racks on it, just a saddle bag support. Considering putting flat bars on it.

Long haul

Polyvalent

[Bill Lindsay]

The symptoms the OP complains about are low energy and bad posture because of low energy.  

The three suggestions I'll toss into the hopper are: 1. there may be issues with your diet, 2. maybe 5x a week is too much.  Maybe limit it to 3x a week strictly and see what that does.  Finally 3. Maybe you go too hard.  Consider using an HRM and keep it strictly in a mellow zone and see if you learn something about that relationship with your energy level and comfort level.  

Me personally, if I'm "not feeling it" I blame it on diet 40% of the time, my own mental health 40% of the time, and a need for a spinal adjustment 20% of the time.  Since those three causes are orthogonal, it can be all three at once, and those are really bad days.  On a day where my back is jacked, and I've been eating crappy, and I'm in a pit of depression, there is no handlebar that will snap me out of that triple-whammy.

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

On Wednesday, May 8, 2024 at 6:28:41 PM UTC-7 Jay wrote:

[Eric Norris]

Quick thought regarding drop bars in response to LuckTurnip:

Almost all of my bikes have drop bars. I have one bike with Soma’s “Oxford” bars (a milder version of theAlbatross?) and a Brompton with a straight handlebar to which I added forward-facing grip extensions.

On my bikes with drop bars, I ride probably 99% of the time on the tops, usually with my hands wrapped around the brake hoods. I find that comfortable and it gives me easy access to the brake levers. 

I spend the other 1% of my time in the drops because I’m not concerned about aerodynamics. There are plenty of things slowing me down, and assuming an aero posture isn’t going to do anything about most of those.

This is of course personal preference, but I like the way drop bars look. I have several classic bikes (Alex Singer, Cinelli, Masi) that were set up with drop bars and which, I think, would look kinda dumb with upright bars. Kind of like a Rambouillet with a polo seat and sissy bar (although some might really like that look).

Ride what you want and pick the bike/seat/handlebars that make you feel comfortable. But don’t assume that drop bars are going to force you into am uncomfortable, crouched posture. 

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com
Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy
YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

On May 9, 2024, at 11:00 AM, lucky...@gmail.com wrote:

Fellow older person here. I have avoided owning a “fast bike” for years due to drops killin’ me, but I recently acquired this sporty XO-1 and the Albatross bar is perfect for it! I might not actually be fast but I *feel* fast now (compared to my racked and fat-tired Atlantis) so that’s really what matters. Albatross is the GOAT. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/6919C8C9-8A7B-4764-A693-2A4FA21D13AC%40gmail.com.

[Jay]

More great points, thanks!

Some responses:

- I would convert my Salsa Fargo to drop bar.  It has Apex 1x drivetrain, and there is an inexpensive MTB shifter that works well, plus this bike is designed with drops and flat/swept in mind

- I'm liking the look of the Albatross bar, not too extreme (walk before you can run!)

- I agree Bill that diet is important, and while mine is generally quite good, on a bad eating evening/day, the next day or later day ride does suffer (that includes if I had a beer, which doesn't work for me close to a ride, let alone on one...though it did last year on a 3-day tour, so who knows!)

- I also agree re: mental health, however, sometimes a ride greatly helps my mental health, so it's often worth the trade off (if I'm a bit sore, but that's not often case after a stressful time in my life)

- I like a lot of things about drop bars, but I feel like trying something different, and with the Fargo being like a drop bar mountain bike, I thought it would be a good candidate for convert

I went for a ride at lunch today.  Just 75 minutes.  I focused on keeping my pelvis upright/straight, and having my upper back/etc tip over a bit, vs. tilting from the pelvis (bike fitter I spoke to recently called this being like asparagus coming out of the microwave, trunk is solid, top folds over a bit, make sense?).  I was on the Roadini and the hoods are above the bars, and the shallow drop to the drops is comfortable and I felt good as I moved hand positions, not tilting too much forward.  Was a bind windy on the way back and did feel that space between my shoulder blades tightening a bit, but no worse than a 2/10 on the pain scale.

[David Ross]

I’m a similar rider in terms of age and issues. I just sold my last drop bar bike and the bars were very neutral and slightly above the saddle. I absolutely loved that bike but I just can’t ride drops at this point. All of my bikes now have swept bars and it makes a huge difference. I’m riding deep sweeps on all my bikes at this point with the bars anywhere from 1-3 inches above the saddle. The reason this works well for me is that I’m able to move my hands up and down the bars depending on terrain and also move my hands to stretch my back and prevent pain. 

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[Jay]

I ended up sticking with drop bars, but making some changes after a good conversation with my chiro and a few rides on the three bikes where I paid a lot of attention to where I had pain, and my posture on those rides.

On the Roadini and Salsa, I was using 42cm bars (at the hoods hoods) with 12 degrees of flare.  First time I went up from 40cm.  In previous fittings I was told I can run a 38cm as I have narrow shoulders.  It's a trend these days to run wider, I tried it, but it really backfired given my pre-existing neck/shoulder issue.  When on the hoods my arms were not a straight line from my body, they were out a bit, and this was a minor (major at times) pain.  I replaced those bars, have ridden each bike once (1.5-2.5 hours) and it was instantly noticeable.  Pain gone.  Both of those bikes have the bars upright (tops level with saddle, hoods higher) and not stretched out.  Road bike has 40cm bars, but the reach is long and drop is 2.5cm below saddle (making the drops unreachable for me).  That's being rectified next.

I may try swept back one day, but for now I do love drop bars and the varied hand positions, and it was much cheaper to replace two bars and re-use the table (success on both counts).

On Wednesday, May 8, 2024 at 9:28:41 PM UTC-4 Jay wrote:

[Jay]

Update: I'm swapping the bars on my Salsa Fargo.  Going with the VO Granola.  I can use them with stems I have on hand, just had to add brake levers, grips and a Sram Apex flat bar shifter.  Need hew cables/housing anyway, so all-in-all the experiment won't break the bank.  I'll report back in a couple of weeks after it's built up and, hopefully, dialled in.

Very little chance I'll switch the bars on my Roadini.  I'm really happy with that set up and feel like I will not be making any changes to it for a long time (which is a delight, for someone who's always making changes to dial in fit).

[Jay]

And the verdict: not for me.  Initially it was fun.  Felt very different from drop bars or flat/mtb bars.  I had a good fit with a longer stem I used, was sized up by the shop and the fit was probably as good as it would get.  First ride was 30 minutes and I made a couple of tweaks as my wrists were bent awkwardly.  Second ride was over an hour and I felt myself wanting to change hand positions, but really couldn't.  I'm just used to drop bars, level with the saddle, where I can rest my hands on the levers, ramps, tops, and drops; slight bend forward, and that slightly different posture that comes with the different hand positions that keeps me loose.  When I got back on my Roadini with its drops it initially felt strange, but after a 2+ ride I was back in heaven (zero upper body discomfort).

I'm glad I tried it though, because I would always be wondering if it was for me.

[David Ross]

I sold my last drop bar bike earlier this year. One thing to keep in mind is that pain isn’t just about the here and now, it’s a signal that you’re doing additional damage to your body. I keep that in mind because I want to ride for as much of the rest of my life as possible. At 51, bars that are level with the saddle are what I would consider to be “slammed”! All of my bikes have swept bars these days with the minimum sweep being around 30 and the max at a touch over 70. It’s a bit of a bummer not to be able to ride the racier stuff these days, but with my current setup I think I can stay on the bike for another couple of decades. 

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[Ryan Mulcahy]

I'm 51. I have a Crust Bombora with VO granola bars and a Hilsen with drops. Love em both. I'd say the Hilsen takes a half-mile or so of easing into the ride, but at that point it's prob more comfortable than Crust -- partly cuz the different hand positions. The one other thing I'd add is that drops do not have to be synonymous with a "race" position (no idea why bike makers fill shops with machines that work only for like one percent of consumers) -- to me, the geo on the Hilsen seems specifically designed for the middle ager who wants to ride drops. There are at least a couple other bikes like this -- the Bombora, for one, which is a terrific bike with a stack, at large, around 600. Another is the Fairlight Faran. 

[peec...@yahoo.com]

I can relate to the original question.  This is true for me, at age 68.  I bought my first Rivendell 13 years ago: Sam Hillborne with albatross bars.  So very upright.  It changed my life on the bike and I have gradually transitioned away from noodle bars on the road to upright, mainly on trails and city streets.  Many options for sweptback bars but I like albatross best because they give me a straight line running from the forearm through the wrist and hand which means less wrist strain and pain (I have arthritis in my hands and wrists).  Since retiring I've been able to lift weights and strengthen my core.  Taking better care of myself has lessened back and shoulder pain.  Life's a journey.  Have fun.  tlp.

[Jay]

Update.

Last July/August I tried the VO Granola on my Fargo.  After only a few rides I didn't like it and went back to drops.

A month ago I decided to give alt bars another chance and got the VO Curvy bar.  I liked it more than the Granola.  I didn't like the round grips for some reason.  I bought Ergon GP2.  Initially, I liked it a lot better, road for weeks with these grips.  I was noticing wrist and hand pain on rides longer than an hour.  I made a lot of adjustments, and I'm still tinkering, but may throw the towel in.  Not sure they're for me though (the bar, grips, the whole Alt bar thing).  Benefits have been improved handling on sweepy trails, very little neck/shoulder discomfort.  Braking is also better.

I just don't know if I should keep tinkering with bar position, rotation of the grips, different grips.  When I got the Roadini, I went for a ride and only needed to make a couple of minor tweaks and it has been fine ever since.  I've never had hand issues on that bike, until now, but I think that's the lingering pain from wrist/hand position on the Fargo.  I'm going to avoid riding the Fargo for 1+ weeks and see if my hands are completely better.  If they are, might have to go back to drops on the Fargo.

[Spencer]

"change your bars, change your life." That speaks to me. I have drops and sweptback bars on a few different bikes and changing the bars and tires can make a bike feel new again. This goes for changing sweptback bars to more/less sweep and rise and also for different type of drops. End of the day - find what works for you on each bike and then swap things around to keep it fresh and most importantly fun and comfortable.

[Jeffrey Arita]

Jay - 

My wife and I each own Salsa Fargo's (2017 models).  Have you tried your Fargo with Salsa's "Woodchipper" bars?  You may want to try that combo as Salsa (at least waaay back in 2017) highly recommended that combo.

I built up his/her Fargo's early 2017 both with Woodchippers.  I carefully followed Salsa's advice on positioning of the Woodchippers.  We took those rigs on the GDMBR and that cockpit was excellent for heavily laden touring.  I think the combo of the Fargo's (relatively) high stack height and (relatively) short top tube allowed the natural default position to be 'in the drops' (vs. on the hoods).  Lower back and neck were not strained - at least for us.  The extreme outsweep/flare of the Woodchippers made climbing in that position feel natural and powerful.  Good width control over technical terrain.  Actuating the brakes in the hooks was straightforward since one's hands fell naturally on the levers [notwithstanding type of disc brake used - there were 18 to 20 mile long downhills along the GD, so I think anyone's hands/fingers would be fatigued unless running hydro's].

Interesting, but we haven't thought much about that combo until ruminating about it until now.

Good luck,

Jeff & Lori

Claremont, CA    

[David Ross]

Alt bars are very hard to dial in as there is a lot more variability than there is with drop bars. You need to play anround with height relative to saddle height as well as reach. In theory, swept bars should take pressure off the hands as you’re moving to a more upright position. That said, the only way I can ride sweeps is to use ergonomic grips or a really fat standard grip like the ones sold by Jones Bike. Basically, you need to spread the pressure out over a larger surface. Anyway, it took me a lot of trial and error to get it right and I’m also running custom bars made by Doom as I find the standard Riv bars too narrow for me. 

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