Who likes the original Atlantis?

[Edwin W]

The first Riv I ever saw was an Atlantis on the BART when I was living in Berkeley in the late 2000s. Didn't know what it was at the time, but I thought, that looks cool! Had a Sam, now a Joe, but I always loved that original Atlantis. Not the current one with the bow-flex second tube in my size.

I think Rivendell should do a run of the original(ish) Atlantis, with some of these aspects from those first runs:

1. The color (of course)
2. Single top tube (doubles aren't for everyone)
3. 26' wheels in small sizes, 700c in the bigger ones (I'd be cool with 26' in all sizes)
4. 45mm chainstays (maybe a hair smaller in the smaller sizes, a hair bigger in the large sizes)
5. Clearance for 2in tires with fenders

Who else would sign up for one?

What other aspects would you like?

Hankering for an Atlantis (61 or 64cm if you have one) in Nashville,

Edwin

[Joe Bernard]

I could see that, assuming they ever catch up frame production enough to change a current model. Right now the MIT Atlantis is practically identical to the Appaloosa; an original design - but from the Taiwan factory - might be a better position for that model.*

*BUT it's like asking Grant for disc brakes, he's not big on doing stuff he doesn't believe in. The Atlantis looks like it does now because he thinks it works better that way. So good luck! 

Joe Bernard

[Scott G.]

I had a Mark 1, the Toyo built version with starlight stays,

tire capacity was bit smaller and head angle a bit steeper.

Yes, I'd like to have one again, the old one was stolen.

Scott G.

[lucky...@gmail.com]

I have an older one (2004) and love it to death, though I do experience toe overlap, and nowadays would probably have bought the next size up. 

That said, it’s the only bike I have never considered selling.

I’m currently running 26” Super Yummy tires which seem fat enough, even too fat maybe. 

On Jul 30, 2021, at 15:23, Scott G. <sco...@primax.com> wrote:



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[Ian A]

I think the original Atlantis in size 56cm/26" wheel is one of my grail bikes. Have considered buying a Surly LHT and having it powdercoated Atlantis green! I'm guessing the Surly is stouter and obviously not as aesthetically pleasing and also not built at Toyo, but a good touring bike nonetheless.

In terms of 26"/559, it is becoming even more difficult to find 26" rim options and tire choice is very limited. 650b has more or less usurped 26", at least in North America it seems. 

IanA Alberta Canada who has stopped acquiring bikes and has managed to cap the stable at four. A Brompton at the right price would still be welcome though.

[lucky...@gmail.com]

I have also owned a LHT and it was nowhere near as nimble/responsive as my Atlantis. It wasn’t fun to ride unloaded, got sold. 

On Jul 30, 2021, at 16:41, Ian A <atte...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think the original Atlantis in size 56cm/26" wheel is one of my grail bikes. Have considered buying a Surly LHT and having it powdercoated Atlantis green! I'm guessing the Surly is stouter and obviously not as aesthetically pleasing and also not built at Toyo, but a good touring bike nonetheless.

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[Ian A]

Thanks for the info, Lucky. I figured the Atlantis would be more responsive, especially unloaded.

IanA

[CoalTrain]

Buy a Crust Romanceur if you want a similar frame.

[dougP]

One of my touring buds had a LHT for years, but always hankered for an Atlantis.  His wife bought him one as a surprise & of course he loved it.  He said the Atlantis was a better ride & more nimble than the LHT.  The Surly didn't stick around for long after the Atlantis arrived. 

RE: Chainstays & wheels:  The old geo charts from the Toyo days show 56 & smaller on 26" wheels with 44 cm chainstays.  58 & larger have 45.5 cm chainstays & 700c wheels. 

dougP

[Elisabeth Sherwood]

Would absolutely be in for that -- with the original geometry, please, including a size that will actually work (with drop-bar set-up) for someone between 5'0" and 5'2"!   (But, in this round, room in the fork for the 47cm frame to include a fender!)

-- Liz

[Joel S]

I get the feeling that Grant will not build bikes with his older philosophy of the shorter chain stays.  If you read the information on the new customs it says longer chainstays….  Maybe he could be convinced on a custom.  I bought the Hillborne to have shorter chainstays.  

[Eric Marth]

I think Joe & Joel have some good points, I can't see Grant doing a full run of bikes based on one of his old designs. Especially the Atlantis, given that it evolved from the XO-1 (I read Grant said this somewhere, old interview or Reader) and he has been refining it for almost 30 years. 

I agree with the LHT:Atlantis/Appaloosa comparisons above. If you take an LHT and paint it Atlantis blue-green the only thing the bikes would have in common is the paint and two wheels. I'm a current owner/rider of both bikes. 

[iamkeith]

Interesting question to think about (though I agree it's unlikely to happen.)

I have an All Rounder from just prior to when the larger sizes got 700c wheels and then morphed into the Atlantis as a production model.  On one hand, it remains my favorite and most-used "road" bike but, on the other hand, I'd definitely change a few things if I could:  

I'd choose slightly longer chainstays and slacker headtube to make it less 'twitchy" at slow speeds.  Is that the same thing other people describe as "nimble?"

I'd prefer a little more top tube slope and/or head tube extension, raise the bars without an awkward amount of stem extension, even if it made it a little less "classic" looking.

I'd like a slightly longer top tube, so that I wasn't as likely to endo over the bars on steep, rougher rides.  [Interestingly,, there were two top tube length options at the time.  Mine is the "standard," but there was a "short" option, too.  Like many of the early production models, I think the idea was to encourage - or allow - a more upright riding posture without messing up the handling by removing too much weight from the front wheel.  I suspect the Atlantis just went 'short-only' which, combined with larger wheels, is what made it notorious for TCO.   The newer, longer-chainstay models fix all of this by re-distributing some weight to the front, even if you have a long top tube and more upright (less racy) riding posture or bars.]

In the end, I think I'd basically end up with a modern rivendell, with the EXCEPTION of keeping the 26" wheels, which I absolutely love despite the unusual proportions.  (I can fit 2.4 just barely.)  Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't hesitate to get a custom Riv with 26' wheels, fancy details, and a healthy dose of Grant's evolved design ideas. I might even have it painted seafoam green (the Gus prototype that Deacon Patrick got is a little less "loud" than the atlantis, and I love it.)

[JRStern11]

I do wish I had not sold my AR, had fitted it with fatter tires but I just had no clue then.  At least it went to an iBOB list member some years ago.  

Sent from ProtonMail for iOS

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[dougP]

Elisabeth:

My wife has 47cm Atlantis & with 1.5" tires it has around 1/2" clearance between the top of the tire & the bottom of the fork.  It's an early production one & has the 44cm chainstays.  She doesn't have fenders but it looks like they would fit.  She's just under 5'2" tall, rides with drop bars, a 6 or 7 cm stem, & a bar riser adapter.  Absolutely loves the bike. 

dougP

[George Millwood]

I have 64cm Mark 1 frame (no 93), it is my favourite bike.  I will never sell it

[Elisabeth Sherwood]

Thanks, Doug!  Yes -- with 1.5" tires, there is *just* room for fenders!  Would be nice to have room for wider tires plus fenders, but 1.5" is good enough... 

That's exactly the way I would set up the Atlantis for me as well (although probably without the riser -- a Technomic Deluxe height would be enough for me, I expect).  

-- Liz

[Bill Lindsay]

For anybody wanting to emulate the riding behaviors of an original Atlantis, I'd enthusiastically recommend the Black Mountain Cycles Rim Brake Monster Cross.  It does everything an original Atlantis does.  It takes 700c wheels in all sizes, fits 2" tires plus fenders, has traditionally short chainstays, braze-ons for everything so you can set it up as a cross bike, drop bar trail bike, commuter, loaded tourer, gravel racer, brevet bike, all the way down to a stripped down 22lb club bike.  It can do everything and anything.  It does not have the lugged look if you need that look.  Every time Mike does a run, they all sell out quick.  Get on the next run if you like good bicycles. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 12:31:39 PM UTC-7 Edwin W wrote:

[frankie garcia]

When I’m riding my 26”  toyo Atlantis I sometimes feel like no other bike in the world matters as much as mine. But what’s even stranger is that I don’t have much to say about HOW it rides?

For me it’s just beautiful and carries enough of what I need it too. And if I want to smack it around a bit it’s ok for that too. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 2, 2021, at 2:33 PM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

For anybody wanting to emulate the riding behaviors of an original Atlantis, I'd enthusiastically recommend the Black Mountain Cycles Rim Brake Monster Cross.  It does everything an original Atlantis does.  It takes 700c wheels in all sizes, fits 2" tires plus fenders, has traditionally short chainstays, braze-ons for everything so you can set it up as a cross bike, drop bar trail bike, commuter, loaded tourer, gravel racer, brevet bike, all the way down to a stripped down 22lb club bike.  It can do everything and anything.  It does not have the lugged look if you need that look.  Every time Mike does a run, they all sell out quick.  Get on the next run if you like good bicycles. 

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[Fullylugged]

Bill wrote, " It does not have the lugged look if you need that look".    The Salsa and the Crust are welded frames. It's not the look, it's the livelier action you get in a lugged frame, I think.  A Rawland Norvindian felt dead underneath me, and so did a LHT.  My fullylugged Ram and Road OTOH are lively (as are my other 2 fully lugged steel bikes. An old Nashbar by Maruishi and a Waterford).  I'd take a Toyo Atlantis in a heartbeat if one came along in my size.  or an AR for that matter. 

No disrespect to the original color, but that new mermaid color is the bomb and I'd gladly use it for my next paint job.  

[Bill Lindsay]

Fullylugged said about lugs:  " It's not the look, it's the livelier action you get in a lugged frame, I think"

That's a pretty hot take.  I wonder how many others feel the same way?  The vast majority of folks attribute "liveliness" and "deadness" to tubing specs:  tubing that flexes more is more lively.  Tubing that is stiffer is more dead.  The prevailing theory lumps thick walled OS diameter tubing bikes into the 'dead' camp, and thinwall, standard diameter tubing into the 'lively' camp.  Personally, I have a bunch of bikes with standard diameter thin wall tubing and a bunch of bikes with OS tubing, and I don't think of any of them as being more dead than the others.  

Yours is the first take I've seen attributing 'liveliness' to the lugs, or that tig-welds will make an otherwise lively frame become dead.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Ray]

I'm with Bill here. I believe that material and geometry factor much more into the ride quality of a bike than the joinery(?). Lugs are beautiful and historic, and I imagine many on the board here appreciate them, but you would have trouble convincing me that any perceived difference between two bikes that are otherwise identical was not due to the rider looking to feel something that was not there.

-Ray

[George Rosselle]

I owned one of the first batch of Atlantis frames, and had it seventeen years. It was a really nice looking bike with some nice parts. But I did not ride it enough, and when I did it felt a bit dead. I also own a Rosco Bubbe, and I find that I like the ride much better, seems a bit more lively. I am also one to "ping" the tubes, I like a nice ring to it. Neither the Atlantis nor the Rosco ping like my old Fat Chance, also a tig welded frame. And it is also still fun to ride. So I agree with Bill, I don't think the lugs make much if any difference there.

George Rosselle

Loganville, GA

[Bruce Herbitter]

Doing some interwebs reading over a lunchtime sandwich, it seems most people side with Bill. Lugs are apparently stronger, and possibly prettier, and they are easier to do a tube replacement with, but tube size, frame geometry, wall thickness and tube alloy are more where the stiffness enters in.  YMMV 

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 5, 2021, at 9:12 AM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

Fullylugged said about lugs:  " It's not the look, it's the livelier action you get in a lugged frame, I think"

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[Brian Campbell]

I own two "old style" Rivendells:

2011 A. Homer Hilsen

2019 Legolas

I recently picked up a used, fillet brazed L' avecaise (Jeff Lyon) built frame with a light wieght top tube, down tube and its bit lighter overall than the similarly sized Legolas. The ride is great and it feels easier to pedal and climbs easier than either of the lugged Rivendells. I have a 46 mile loop that I do regulalry and measure my rides on Rides with GPS. The L'avecaise speed was 1.6 mph faster than either of the Rivendells. I believe its the tubes and not the lugs.

[iamkeith]

Is it possible that a tube can have shorter butted (thickened) sections at its ends if it is going to be brazed in place vs welded?  Is more material necessary to compensate for the annealing that occurs from the higher temperatures encountered during welding?  Taking advantage of such ability would require some care by builder and designer in selecting or specifying the right tubes, of course.  I've never thought about this before, but respect Bruce's experience enough to wonder if there isn't something to it. (Sorry for the continued thread drift)

[James Valiensi]

HI,

I have built many frames, some have 80,000 miles on them.

There are a few reasons tubes are thicker at the ends, which is commonly called butted tubes, but the process that makes them is called swedged. 

The thicker ends allow the frame to have a much longer life and helps reduce or prevents fatigue failure. 

If you study the equations for bending you will notice the material hardness does not factor in it. Only material property is the modulus of elasticity. The hardness figures in the equations for fatigue life. 

Some steel tubing was made from ‘air’ hardening steel. It was to be tig welded and the heat of welding would harden the joints. This allowed for shorter butts and therefore lighter frames. 

Bigger diameter tubes allows for thinner walls. 

The best riding and lightest frames I made used Columbus Peggo-Richie tubing. I’d fillet braze the joints and use a cast bottom bracket. You can fill the frame respond to every pedal stroke yet the ride was sublime and smooth. This tubing was double over-sized and designed for tig welding (Peggoretti) and lugs (Richard Sachs) and I found low temperature silver fillet brazing to work very well with it. ( I have a very special alloy for this).

Toyo Riv’s are far better frames than Bridgestones, but not quite as good as a lugged Trek form the 80’s or any steel Colnago. I learned this by fixing or modifying all these frames. A custom Riv is a very nice frame. 

On Aug 5, 2021, at 12:45 PM, iamkeith <keith...@gmail.com> wrote:

Is it possible that a tube can have shorter butted (thickened) sections at its ends if it is going to be brazed in place vs welded?  Is more material necessary to compensate for the annealing that occurs from the higher temperatures encountered during welding?  Taking advantage of such ability would require some care by builder and designer in selecting or specifying the right tubes, of course.  I've never thought about this before, but respect Bruce's experience enough to wonder if there isn't something to it. (Sorry for the continued thread drift)

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[Patrick Moore]

It's not the lugs. I've had lugged bikes that felt sluggish and tigg'd or fillet brazed bikes that felt lively. 

As to thicker-walled and over-sized tubing: that 2003 Riv Road custom you've all enjoyed hearing so much about never felt as lively as the 1999 RRc. I don't know what the difference in tubing was between the 2, but the 2 frames were for practical purposes geometrical clones, and they were built up almost identically.*

I had a standard gauge 531 fillet brazed frame with -- well, is it thin wall? .8 .4 .8 tubes, don't know if all or just some -- built in an almost exact geometrical copy of the 2003. Immediately it felt livelier and "easier to maintain a given cadence in a given gear in given conditions," much like the 1999 in fact

I wholly agree lugs have nothing to do with it. 

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Martin Alvarez]

Just hear to say that I really like both my Toyo Atlantis and my Surly Trucker.  Pretty different bikes.  Glad to have both of them. I'm curious about the BMC Monster Cross and the Crust Romanceur w rim brakes.