Cantilever brake question...

[René Sterental]

Hi all,

I've had Paul Cantis on my Atlantis (and Hunqapillar) since I acquired them. Paul Centerpulls on the Homer after using the original Silver brakes, and now will have Compass brazed Centerpulls on the custom. I've also read everything I could find, including BQ's excellent volume on brakes to understand how to adjust these brakes properly.

The question is regarding the brakes on my Atlantis. On the front it has the Paul Neo-Retro and on the rear the Paul Tourer. Per my education, the Neo-Retro needs the cable yoke to be as high as possible and the Tourer as low as possible for optimal function.

When braking, the rear Tourer brake which by design should be less powerful, feels excellent, both in braking power and modulation. In fact, I can brake really well with it alone, and use it primarily to slow down prior to turns.

Braking with the front Neo-Retro feels as if it has very little power and is very hard to stop the bike unless you press really hard. It doesn't feel as if it modulates, it's just that it's hard to stop the wheel.

My experience before was usually the opposite, where the rear brake wasn't enough on its own, but you had to be careful with the front.

I changed the pads on both brakes to see if that made a difference, but it didn't. 

Is there anything I'm missing? Is that just how these brakes work? I'm tempted to switch the front Neo-Retros for a set of Tourer brakes that were in the rear of my Hunqapillar, but am concerned I won't be able to get the cable yoke low enough with the front rack attachment. 

Any feedback would be appreciated.

René 

[Bill Lindsay]

"Per my education, the Neo-Retro needs the cable yoke to be as high as possible"

You were educated incorrectly, or made the wrong conclusion from your education.  The Mechanical Advantage (MA) of wide profile cantilever brakes like the Paul Neo-Retro is mathematically pretty FLAT as a function of yoke height.  It doesn't matter much how high you make the yoke with wide profile cantilevers.  Your description of not having enough power, and not being able to stop the bike with the front brake means you have TOO LITTLE Mechanical Advantage.  Even though the MA of your front brake is comparatively flat, the higher the yoke is, the less MA you have.  If you want to see how much more Mechanical Advantage is available to you, lower the yoke height as low as you feel comfortable lowering it.  Mathematically, it won't make a huge of difference, but it will be more Mechanical Advantage, and that might feel great to you.  If you try it with the yoke low, and still don't feel like you have enough power, then a narrower profile brake like the Touring Cantilever, has far more range of MA vs yoke height.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Jay Lonner]

My cantilever education is ongoing. I must have read Sheldon's guides a dozen times over the years, but when it comes to actually getting the brakes to work it's like being back in school where I do the reading but blank on the test.

Anyway, I've had Neo-Retros on my Hunq since I got it, and have never been happy with the braking. On my most recent dive into cantilever theory and practice (informed this time by http://www.circleacycles.com/cantilevers/canti-geometry.pdf) I determined that wide profile cantis like this do best with a low cable yoke. That wasn't very feasible for my setup, because of interference from racks and fenders, so I ended up replacing the Neo-Retros with Paul Touring cantis, and so far the braking is much improved, although squealier. So I endorse your plan of replacing the Neo-Retros with a set of the Touring cantis. FWIW, the mid-profile Shimano cantis that Riv sells and endorses seem to be widely admired, and they will be my next step if the Touring cantis disappoint me once the wet weather returns.

Incidentally, I have a set (i.e. one bike's worth) of Paul Neo-Retros for sale! Inquiries welcome.

Jay Lonner

Bellingham, WA

[René Sterental]

I'll have to go and re-read everything, can't figure out how I could have understood it in reverse. 

No matter what, it seems the Touring are going in the front when I get home this weekend. 

But I still want to understand it. 

René 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[René Sterental]

Jay,

Thanks to that article you linked to, I finally got it. Now I understand it. 

Still some practical questions: 

- Why is the typical setup Neo-Retros in the front with their lower mechanical advantage that requires so much more force to be applied? Because they're less finicky to adjust and have more clearance? If the front wheel does the most actual braking, why would you place a low mechanical advantage brake there?

What I read, and hopefully understood correctly, is that the preferred setup was with wide profile cantilevers like the Neo-Retro both front and rear, but due to the prominent brake being a nuisance with bags, panniers or other stuff, the low profile cantilevers were used in the rear instead. In fact, a friend just bought a Soma Randonneur and it came with low profile cantis front and rear. But isn't the low profile canti a better more effective brake? Or at least it would seem that the medium profile is... So why are those not available?

I now understand the how to set them up, but not quite yet the why...

Bill? You seem to understand this better

René, who wants to know more and has always asked why?

[Jeffrey B]

I've had REALLY good experiences with the cheapest Shimano cantilevers you can buy - the Altus can be had for about $8 a set (cheaper than most pads even). They are easy to set up, quiet, powerful, look good, and feel nice at the lever. Give them a shot!

[ian m]

Low profile cantis are generally as a rule stronger brakes (more mechanical advantage) than high profile. Not sure why Paul states otherwise. Getting low profile brakes set up correctly (lots of squish) was a revelation, they inspire a lot more confidence on my MTB

[Conway Bennett]

I'd read the black mountain cycles article on the topic. Also I believe I read on the Paul site that for neo retros 2-3" yoke height is good enough. I didn't read thru all the posts but have you adjusted spring tension yet?

[René Sterental]

Spring tension? What would that have to do with how well the brakes stop the bike? Besides, spring tension is the same between the front and rear brakes.

My plan is this:

- First try lowering the yoke as low as it will go on the Neo-Retros. I can do it since the Nitto Campee front rack I have doesn't have the strut connecting it to the fork crown. Note the difference if there is any.

- Swap the Neo-Retros for the other set of Touring brakes, now that I have the low yoke. Note the difference

- Since I also have a set of MiniMotos I bought to see if they fit on another bike, I may try them as well, but that would mean a potential recabling which I'm not sure I want to do. I've also been advised that they may not fit well with the 50mm fenders, so perhaps I'll just see how they fit first, before setting them up. It was suggested that if I wanted the ultimate braking power, I try the Motolites, although they'd require a new set of V-brake levers, which I'm not so hot on.

Based on all my new learnings, I believe the Touring front and rear will take care of my "problem".

I'd still want to know why the wide-profile cantilever brakes have persisted for so long...

René 

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 12:29 PM, Conway Bennett <captaincon...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'd read the black mountain cycles article on the topic.  Also I believe I read on the Paul site that for neo retros 2-3" yoke height is good enough.  I didn't read thru all the posts but have you adjusted spring tension yet?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 08/25/2016 04:58 PM, René Sterental wrote:

Spring tension? What would that have to do with how well the brakes stop the bike? Besides, spring tension is the same between the front and rear brakes.

Well, as a general statement I am not sure, but I do know this one thing from personal experience: if you want to really mess up a Paul Racer centerpull and make it so it is completely useless as a brake, mess up the spring tension.  Last time I had my VO Randonneur in to have the brake pads changed, a ham-fisted mechanic decided to play with the spring tension and literally made the brake useless as a brake.  It's a good thing it's only a couple of miles to the bike shop... and an even better thing that the head mechanic had the problem fixed in just a minute or two.

My plan is this:

- First try lowering the yoke as low as it will go on the Neo-Retros. I can do it since the Nitto Campee front rack I have doesn't have the strut connecting it to the fork crown. Note the difference if there is any.

- Swap the Neo-Retros for the other set of Touring brakes, now that I have the low yoke. Note the difference

- Since I also have a set of MiniMotos I bought to see if they fit on another bike, I may try them as well, but that would mean a potential recabling which I'm not sure I want to do. I've also been advised that they may not fit well with the 50mm fenders, so perhaps I'll just see how they fit first, before setting them up. It was suggested that if I wanted the ultimate braking power, I try the Motolites, although they'd require a new set of V-brake levers, which I'm not so hot on.

Based on all my new learnings, I believe the Touring front and rear will take care of my "problem".

I'd still want to know why the wide-profile cantilever brakes have persisted for so long...

Here's some of what Paul says about the Neo retro:

Note: These are very powerful brakes and have a tendency to overpower thin tubed frames (in any material). For none-too-stout frames and forks we recommend our Touring Canti. Also, the arms stick out a lot! For smaller frames, bikes with bags, and people with large feet there can be some interference problems, in which case the Touring Canti might be more appropriate.

Clearly they are of the opinion that the Neo retro is the more powerful of the two, and honestly after all this time you'd think they'd know their own products.

René 

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 12:29 PM, Conway Bennett <captaincon...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'd read the black mountain cycles article on the topic.  Also I believe I read on the Paul site that for neo retros 2-3" yoke height is good enough.  I didn't read thru all the posts but have you adjusted spring tension yet?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.

[Ron Mc]

All I can tell you is my Paul touring cantis f/r are the best brakes I've ever squeezed.  

[adam leibow]

http://blackmountaincycles.blogspot.com/2013/03/get-most-out-of-your-canit-brake.html

On Wednesday, August 24, 2016 at 4:49:20 PM UTC-7, René wrote:

[Michael Hechmer]

I have the neo retros on two singles and the tandem and have always had good performance from them.  If you look at Paul's setup instructions they do not say to put the yoke as hi as possible.  From memory they say something like 5".  I am not a physicist but I believe the optimal force on the lever comes at 90 degrees.  Obviously the angle changes as the arm moves upward so it is not possible to do this consistently (except with the Rodriguez Big Squeeze Brakes).  Therefore lower profile brakes generally require lower hangers than hi profile ones.

My, admittedly limited,  personal experience has been that poor braking performance is more likely to come from a mismatch between the lever and the brake as it is the cable angle and the brake.  Years ago I had SIS levers and Shimano low profile (550BR??) and the braking was scary.   I switched to Tectro levers and the braking improvement was big.  Then I switched to Paul's and the braking was terrific.

What levers are you using?  

I would also strongly suggest you contact Paul's directly.  I have always found them to be very helpful.

Michael

[René Sterental]

I'm using the Shimano R600 Ultegra brake levers. My current yoke height should he in the ballpark of the recommended height, but I'll check it when I get home tonight. 

René 

[Comotion001]

Hey Michael, curious what brand tandem you own. I have a 2007 Commotion Speedster with Avid 7 V brake on front and disk on rear. I changed the read disk from BB7 to SPYRE. I also changed out the STI levers (terrible braking) with bar end shifters and TRP brake levers. That certainly improved the braking but still far from what I would call really good. I use the tandem for loaded touring and coming down mountains can be problematic. I've been researching better braking options but haven't come across any yet.  Thanks Bill

[Michael Hechmer]

I would guess that all Shimano road brake levers are designed for side pull brakes, cant's are not given much influence.  V Brakes were designed to stop mountain bikes with relatively low weight on steep descents.  Cantis come out of the touring tradition and assume a heavy bike at more modest speeds.  I suspect that Shimano levers simply pull too much cable to work well with cantis.  I used Ultegra STI levers very successfully with Ultegra brakes, but when I put them on a bike with Shimano cantis, I all but ended up inside the back of a pickup truck.  Probably not what OP, Rene,  wanted to read.  I think it would be interesting to start another thread and see what others experience has been.  I might post the same question on the Tan...@hobbes.usc.edu list and see what comes up there.

 Tandems are another whole ball of ...bike.  Our loaded Bilenky tandem approaches 430 lbs, so stopping it is a tricky business.  Tandems do have one advantage when it comes to stopping.  Since the rear wheel maintains much better road contact than a single, the rear brake is as effective as the front.  Our Tandem has TRP levers, Neo -Retro brakes, and 9 speed bar ends.  We are not daredevils so I may not put the same demand on brakes as other people.

I have no hesitation letting our unloaded tandem roll downhill at 45 mph if I know the road and know there isn't a road & stop sign ahead.  I would not do that with a fully loaded tandem and not just because of a brake problem  A double bike, weighing 430 lbs would be pretty scary if it developed even a little shimmy.  And this is where overheated rims becomes a concern.  No rim brake will stop you if the rim overheats.  I usually alternate between the front and rear brakes to give the rims a chance to cool.  If I were coming down a long steep drop, e.g. White Face which is 3+ miles of 14%.  I would come to a complete stop and let the rims cool well before things got out of control.

If I had disk brake I would want it to be the 200mm version, but have zero experience with disk brakes, except on my cars, where they work great, but are almost as big as the wheel.

As I told my car mechanic when the brake warning light came on, " Who needs brakes, they just slow you down!"  Every time we head out on the tandem my sweetheart says, "Are the brakes on? "  To which I respond, " No honey the bike wont go with the brakes on."

Michael

[Steve Palincsar]

On 08/26/2016 06:01 PM, Michael Hechmer wrote:

 I suspect that Shimano levers simply pull too much cable to work well with cantis.  I used Ultegra STI levers very successfully with Ultegra brakes, but when I put them on a bike with Shimano cantis, I all but ended up inside the back of a pickup truck.

I have Shimano road aero brake levers on my MAP, which has Deore XT high profile cantilevers.  They work just fine.

[Comotion001]

I have a Calfee tandem with SPYRE disks front and rear with 2011 version Ultegra STI. It will stop on a dime. Of course it is a fairly light tandem. I've debated putting a disk on the front of my Commotion but would prefer not having disks on a touring bike. The bike has couplers so it comes apart for travel. The disk rotors can be problematic for plane travel. My preference for the Commotion is canti brakes. Years ago on a previous tandem I used the Arai drum brake which did a great job controlling your speed on steep decents but you can't find them anymore. 

[Justin August]

I think, to be fair, "Shimano levers" was in reference to modern STI brifters. Maybe not but I'd assume so given the long history of success of the brake-only levers and cantis from Rivendell and others.

-Justin, Oakland

[Michael Hechmer]

That's right.  I was thinking specifically of the STI levers.  

[Michael Hechmer]

That's right Steve, and looking at your setup, the straddle seems to be 4-5" up and at about 65-75 degrees.  As the brake arm lifts it moves toward 90 degrees and should gain power.

BTW, nice looking bike.

Michael

[René Sterental]

Looking at that photo, my yoke is quite a bit higher than that. I'll take some photos and report when I start working on the bike. Just got home and I'm beat.

René 

On Friday, August 26, 2016, Michael Hechmer <mhec...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

[René Sterental]

Here is the source of my original confusion; extracted from the article linked by Alan:

"Straddle cable and yoke position

To get the most out of your canti brake, it's crucial to get the straddle cable carrier (yoke) installed in the right position based on the type of brakes you are running.  Simply put, you want to try to achieve a 90 degree angle between the pivot bolt/cable anchor/straddle cable.  The angle formed if you drew a line from the pivot bolt to the cable anchor on the arm and along the straddle cable should be around 90 degrees.  This gives you a good combination of modulation and power.  It's possible to alter this angle to get more power, giving up modulation.  A rough rule of thumb is low-profile brakes require a low straddle cable carrier position, wide profile brakes require a high straddle cable carrier position.  Going even lower on a low-profile brake will give you more power, but the modulation will be lower and the brake pads will need to be set closer to the rim.  This position also will feel a little mushy at the lever.  Most lower profile canti brakes I see have the straddle carrier set too high.  This might feel good at the lever; solid feeling, you might say, but when you need to hit the brakes you won't have the power needed to stop."

See the sentence that starts with "A rough rule of thumb..."

So I checked my Neo-Retro yoke position; it wasn't too high, limited by the crown fork cable hanger, probably around 1 - 1.5" above the fender (recent photo: https://flic.kr/p/Huku4A). Lowered it to almost touching the fender, just 5 - 6mm away, and though the feeling increased slightly, the braking is still less powerful than the rear Touring brake.

Next step is to remove the rack (hassle!) to install the Touring brakes and check if the MiniMoto fit or not.

Stay tuned...

René 

--

[Brian Campbell]

This is why I no longer use cantilever brakes. V-brakes work and have allowed me to stop futzing. I know the purists are taught to hate V-bakes because they don't "look" the part, or you are lacking in mechanical skills if you don't enjoy spending time with them.....In the real world they work better, are easier to set up, easier to maintain and easier to service (especially on the road if need be). I recently set up a set of Shimano SLR mid profile canti-s on a 1983 Schwinn Voyageur SP and while they work ok, I was reminded that they are a good bit more finicky ( and the Shimano brakes are pretty well designed and easy to set up as far a canti's go) and require more time that V-Brakes.

I say go with the mini-motos' (if possible) and don't look back. You will more than likely not have think about whether or not the brakes have been "optimized" ever again......

FWIW, I used a set of Shimano XT V- brakes (silver) when I built up the Hunqapillar frame you provided me (I am keeping it BTW, figured out my fit issue)and the brakes were set up at the time of the build and have needed nothing since. More powerful that any canti brake I have ever used.

[ian m]

What is the max tire size the mini-motos will fit?

[Daniel Jackson]

Yeah. Clearance is the crux of it all. If you could accommodate 50mm tires with fenders under a v brake, many of us who use cantis might be inclined to try out some V options.

[Steve Palincsar]

What do you do to resolve road brake lever cable pull incompatibilities?

[Bill Lindsay]

Ian asked what is the max tire size that Paul Mini-Motos will fit.  

The answer depends on where your frame builder put the posts, but it is normal to run them with monster cross tires 700x45, without fenders.  With a fender and "good" fender clearance, maybe a 700x32.  If you don't need "good" fender clearance, maybe a 700x38.  YMMV depending on where your posts are.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Jay Lonner]

I would be tempted to try Motolites if I could find long-pull reverse brake levers. Paul stopped making them a few years ago, and I don't know of any other models out there. I'd love to buy a used pair of the Paul levers if any list members have a set for sale. Or maybe someone can point me in the direction of other long-pull reverse levers? I don't want to mess around with Travel Agents and the like.

Jay Lonner
Bellingham, WA

[Brian Campbell]

Tektro/Cane Creek and Dia Compe make road bar levers for v-brakes. There are no brifters that I am aware of but I have used the Dia Compe 287v with shimano bar ends for shifting. I don't like things like travel agents etc and avoid them.

[Brian Campbell]

It will work on my Hunqapillar but I think the brake arm length is a factor to consider as well. I have had good luck with the older, Shimano XT v-brakes.

[RoadieRyan]

I started out with Cani's (Avids) on my Handsome Devil but quickly grew frustrated and make the switch to V Brakes and they have worked great for 4 years.  Mini Motos huh? nice tip -if the Cantis on my newly acquired vintage touring Schwinn Passage don't work out (Dia Compe 960s)  I may give the Mini Motos a try and I won't need new brake levers.

[Bill Lindsay]

Roadie Ryan

You probably should not count on any contemporary brakes working on your schwinn passage.  Canti-post placement for TINY cantilevers like the Dia Compe 960 is far different from canti-post placement for modern brakes.  In fact if you do an image search on Google for "dia compe 960" a lot of what you will see is photos of people trying to 'update' their brakes from dia compe 960 and failing.  I think those tiny cantilevers are super cute.  Use new salmon pads and do your best.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Brian Campbell]

You can use the Shimano SLR mid-profile cantis  on that Passage w/ Salmon Kool Stops and greatly improve the braking  IMHO. I have done it three separate times to 80's Schwinn touring bikes (Passage/Voyageur/Voyageur SP)

[Brian Campbell]

Looks like this....1983 Voyageur SP. Fits 38mm  Compass Barlow Pass EL tires and fenders.

[Mark in Beacon]

Terrible pic, but here is my Clementine with 2" (50mm) tires and fenders and V brakes (and, embarrassingly enough, sans brake cable cap--on the way!)

Gravel bike has a list of V-brake arm lengths:

http://www.gravelbike.com/v-brake-arm-lengths/

The Shimano Deore XT is supposed to be a nice brake, less than $60 for the pair and they come in at 107, one of the longer arm lengths on the list.

On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 at 4:04:52 PM UTC-4, Daniel Jackson wrote:

[Bill Lindsay]

Yes. Brian is right that you can just barely use late 80s brakes on your early 80s bike. When I said nothing contemporary I meant nothing you can buy new and certainly nothing v-brake

[Philip Kim]

Jay I got v brake light levers pleas email me phili...@gmail.com as I'm on mobile now

[Philip Kim]

Paul v brake levers specifically

[Brian Campbell]

True. These brakes also allow for  27" to 700c conversion pretty easily as well on most bike from this era.

[Jeremy Till]

It may help to clarify a few things here, and define terms.  Braking "power" is a tricky term, but for the purposes of my post we could define it as amount of normal force applied by the brake pad to the rim.  This is dependent on the mechanical advantage of the braking system (brake, cables, and levers), the spring tension of the brakes, and the grip strength of the rider.  For the purposes of this discussion we will ignore secondary factors in braking such as cable stretch, housing compression, and brake pad friction.  

Mechanical advantage (or leverage) is likewise a tricky term.  It refers specifically to how much the braking system multiplies the force applied to the brake lever by the rider. Taken simplistically, therefore, it could be understood as the main determinant of power, as in "v-brakes are more powerful than cantis." However; mechanical advantage is not power for nothing; just like a simple lever, in order to taken advantage of leverage, we have to apply that power over a distance.  The brake lever travels farther than the brake pad over the course of the braking action.  The bigger the mechanical advantage of the system, the farther your fingers have to travel.  In the end, the power (remember, that's total braking force) of high mechanical advantage systems can be limited by the amount of travel the lever has between its resting point and bottoming out on the handlebar.  Since the brake pad is not moving very far, they also have the disadvantage of requiring the brake pads to be run very close to the rim, requiring exacting brake adjustment and wheel trueness.  

Low mechanical advantage systems, on the other hand, often are not limited by lever travel.  Since the leverage ratio is smaller, the total distance the brake lever has to travel is smaller, well within the range of most contemporary brake lever designs, even when adjusted for smaller reach.  It just means that the force you have to apply to the brake lever in order to achieve a given "power" (braking force) is larger than it would be with a higher mechanical advantage system.  In other words, it comes down to grip strength.  If you have plenty of grip strength and squeeze really hard, a low mechanical advantage system can let you achieve very high braking force without ever reaching the limits of your brake levers.  They also have the advantage of allowing the brake pads to run farther from the rim, so aren't as depending on exacting setup and perfectly true wheels.  

.

So in the end, it comes down to the particular rider: the dimensions of their hands, their grip strength, and their personal preferences.  If you are limited in grip strength, you would probably prefer a high mechanical advantage system.  However, given that most riders with lower grip strength also have smaller hands and have to limit the reach of their brake levers, this means that lever travel becomes the limiting factor in most high mechanical advantage systems.  While they multiply hand force more, they are limited by how far the brake lever can go before hitting the bar.  They have a limit beyond which you cannot physically brake anymore, even if you were stronger.   On the the other hand, folks with big hands and  a firm handshake can run a low mechanical advantage system, run their brake levers as far out as they'll go, and be just fine.  Since the're not limited by level travel, they harder they pull, the harder the brakes will press on the rim. 

What does this have to do with the braking components offered by Paul?  Well, here's the rub (pun intended): I'm fairly certain that the mid-profile Touring Canti has more mechanical advantage than the high-profile Neo-Retro.  Does that mean that they are absolutely more powerful than the Neo-Retros?  Not necessarily; they just create a system that is limited more by lever travel than the grip strength of the rider.  I have no doubt that a rider with a strong grip could squeeze tons of power out of a set of Neo-Retros, the type of fork-bending forces that Paul describes in their warning.  On the other hand, if you find that your braking force "hits a wall" with Neo-Retros, that you can't pull the lever any harder (and it is not bottoming out on the bar) and still aren't achieving adequate stopping power, then the higher mechanical advantage Touring Cantis might be right for you, both on the front and back.    

Paul are amazing machinists and fabricators, who care about longevity and serviceability more than a lot of companies in the bike market.  They are not necessarily super original when it comes to design, however, especially of their brakes.  Pretty much all of their brakes are copies of other brake designs, except executed with top notch materials and attention to detail.  Paul readily admits that the design of the Neo-Retro was copied from old Mafac tandem cantilevers, which back in the pre-MTB days were probably some of the most powerful brakes on the market, provided you were strong enough to squeeze them.  Tandem captains are almost by definition bigger, stronger folks.  Then along came MTBs and people of all sizes and grips strengths on single bikes with fat tires needed more powerful brakes, and along came lower-profile cantilever brakes, of which the Touring Canti is an excellent example.   

[Bill in Roswell GA]

Ref the Shimano Deore XT V brakes, I just rebuilt a 1997 Klein MTB that I've not been on since 2004. I cleaned the brake tracks, sanded the pads and was astounded at how great those brakes are (in the dry). Using shorty levers, I'm talking one finger operation per brake. A nice feature of the old XT Vs is how wide the open, easily clearing 2.2 inch wide tires. 

The old XT V brakes have more stopping power than the Ultegra 6600 sidepulls I have on a couple of bikes (flex?). Having recently taken a ride on a gravel bike with TRP Spyres, I would say the old XT V brakes are only a few hairs behind, about equal with Avid BB7s (in the dry). 

On of my riding buddies has Shimano CX-70 canti brakes on his all-rounder and those things are pretty awesome with the stock Shimano pads. My CX has wide cantis (Kore branded, but a lot like FSAs) with Koolstop CX pads setup with low straddle (the way most CX racers run wide cantis) and they are pretty good at slowing the bike down, but not as good at stopping. Levers are Ultegra 6600 STI.

If you can't run discs and need stopping power the old XT V brakes would be hard to beat (having never tried Paul or Compass centerpulls) for the money. 

Cheers,

Bill in Roswell, GA

[Jay Lonner]

Jeremy, what you write makes perfect sense and is an excellent distillation of what Sheldon has written on the subject. However, in my experience theory doesn't always work out under real-world conditions. FWIW, I am a large man (6'3", 215#) with big hands (size 8.5 glove) and a strong grip (take my word for it). In wet conditions with a heavy load and a steep descent I have found Neo-Retros to function more as speed modulators than proper brakes, no matter how hard I squeeze. So far I am happier with the Touring cantis, but they've only been on the bike for a month or so and it's been pretty dry during that time, so it isn't an apples-to-apples comparison. The rain is coming though, so stay tuned...

Jay Lonner

Bellingham, WA

[ian m]

What Jeremy says also misses the connection between low mechanical advantage (necessitating more grip strength) and arm/hand fatigue. There's a reason why systems only requiring one finger braking are highly prized for off road riding, same would go for any situation in which a rider is braking often or while fully loaded.

[Jeremy Till]

My post was not intended as a polemic, but rather simply to clarify some of the dynamics at play with cantilever brakes and point out that high mechanical advantage does not necessarily create the highest possible braking force.  High mechanical advantage brakes like v-brakes and discs (both mechanical and hydraulic) are great for mountain biking; I've used both on my off-road rigs. 

[Michael Hechmer]

Jeremy, I didn't read your post as a polemic, but rather as illuminating.  My personal experience has been that some road levers, especially Shimano SIS, pull too much cable to work effectively with cantis.  My recommendation to the OP, before spending any money, call Paul's and talk through the problem with them.  They are very customer oriented.  I would still bet that the system needs a different set of levers, not a different set of brakes.

[Garth]

    FWIW, Rene's Shimano R600 levers are regular brake only levers , they are no different than any mtb or bar end lever in cable pull.  

Everyone is just guessing as to what the issue is and all that we can do without seeing it and feeling it in person. I assume his cabling to the rear is perfectly clear of all sense of drag, but that also is just an assumption. It's gotta be perfect first and foremost :) The easiest way to check is to disconnect the brake yoke and hold it in your left and actuate the lever with lever in right hand. It ought to be smooth as a hot knife through butter. If not the housing end needs some refining. 

[Allingham II, Thomas J. (Retired Partner)]

Steve:  What are those interrupter levers?  I like 'em!  T

 

From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Palincsar
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 6:15 PM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Cantilever brake question...

 

 

On 08/26/2016 06:01 PM, Michael Hechmer wrote:

 I suspect that Shimano levers simply pull too much cable to work well with cantis.  I used Ultegra STI levers very successfully with Ultegra brakes, but when I put them on a bike with Shimano cantis, I all but ended up inside the back of a pickup truck.

I have Shimano road aero brake levers on my MAP, which has Deore XT high profile cantilevers.  They work just fine.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.

Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

---

The sender of this email is a retired partner of Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP ("Skadden") and is not performing legal service on behalf of Skadden. Use by a retired partner of the skadden.com or probonolaw.com domain names is in his/her personal capacity and not on behalf of Skadden or its affiliates.

[Steve Palincsar]

Paul cross lever   https://paulcomp.com/shop/components/cross-lever/

[Allingham II, Thomas J. (Retired Partner)]

<Very> nice

[René Sterental]

Great thread!

Here's my latest update. Two Sundays ago, I removed the front Neo-Retro brakes after lowering the yoke and finding no significant improvement with that change, which was my expectation based on the excellent article and graphs provided by Adam and further clarified/confirmed by Jeremy's post. 

Removing the front rack that was attached to the brake bosses proved so convoluted since for some reasons, the nuts holding the rack arms to the brake bossess would not come off, so after I was all done, removing it, I installed the Touring brakes and completely forgot to check if the MiniMotos would fit. I'll have to do that test some other time on the rear, where access is easier.

The net result so far, as expected, is that the front brake now feels very nice, strong and easy to modulate, but also as expected, the pads are quite close to the rim. For now, I'll keep it like that as now I like the braking very much and don't have that feeling that the front brake would not stop me on a pinch if I needed it.

Until the next brake experiment!

René 

On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 3:18 PM, Allingham II, Thomas J. (Retired Partner) <Thomas.A...@skadden.com> wrote:

<Very> nice

 

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Palincsar
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2016 5:22 PM

To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Cantilever brake question...

 

Paul cross lever   https://paulcomp.com/shop/components/cross-lever/

 

On 09/01/2016 05:15 PM, Allingham II, Thomas J. (Retired Partner) wrote:

Steve:  What are those interrupter levers?  I like 'em!  T

 

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Palincsar
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 6:15 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Cantilever brake question...

 

 

On 08/26/2016 06:01 PM, Michael Hechmer wrote:

 I suspect that Shimano levers simply pull too much cable to work well with cantis.  I used Ultegra STI levers very successfully with Ultegra brakes, but when I put them on a bike with Shimano cantis, I all but ended up inside the back of a pickup truck.

I have Shimano road aero brake levers on my MAP, which has Deore XT high profile cantilevers.  They work just fine.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.

Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

The sender of this email is a retired partner of Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP ("Skadden") and is not performing legal service on behalf of Skadden. Use by a retired partner of the skadden.com or probonolaw.com domain names is in his/her personal capacity and not on behalf of Skadden or its affiliates.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.

Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.

Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

---

The sender of this email is a retired partner of Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP ("Skadden") and is not performing legal service on behalf of Skadden. Use by a retired partner of the skadden.com or probonolaw.com domain names is in his/her personal capacity and not on behalf of Skadden or its affiliates.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.