Just Ride

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Maybe there should be a spoiler alert here - be advised that I will be discussing various aspects of the new book, so navigate away from this page if you prefer the content of the book to be a complete surprise.

I finished reading the book tonight, which if I can summarize in a line, is about all the good things about bikes that appear only when you toss racer prejudices and attitudes out the window and Just Ride. After the first few chapters, I thought that maybe the editors really sanitized GP's historically familiar against-the-grain opinions to be more blandly vanilla, hopefully to be appealing to a broader audience. The general content wasn't unpredictable to me, having read the Readers and Catalogs and most everything else Riv going back to 2004 when I wanted a touring bike and couldn't find any to buy except the Atlantis (that's how I first found Riv in the internet universe). But I was somewhat surprised that there was little to no discernible lug evangelism or quill stem absolutism or singing the praises of friction shifters, and the Retro-Grouchiness was held to a dull roar.

But as I got further along in the book, I started to think that maybe Mr Petersen has simply mellowed about the trivial details over the years (I know I have!). Or maybe more accurately, there's less to be peeved about in the bike industry now than there was 10 years ago or even 5 years ago. After all, smart, sturdy bikes with ample tire clearance and useful braze-ons and some attention to classic, non-billboard aesthetics have become, dare I say, normal. If racing bikes and gear are the status quo in the world, then I must live in a lucky bubble in South Minneapolis where I ride and fix bikes every day, as I see lots of reincarnated 1980s sport-tourers, old steel MTBs, and new(ish) Surly Cross-checks and LHTs on a daily basis, but feel like I see relatively few "road bikes" being ridden by obvious faux-racers. To the extent that bike trends have steered toward the benefit of the "Unracer" over the past decade or so, my opinion is that Grant and Rivendell played a large part in it. This is not to say that all smart bike designs and product offerings are shameless Riv-ripoffs, but that Grant gave voice to a backlash movement and opened a long-neglected market to a lot of smart, creative people who maybe couldn't or wouldn't have done it without some pioneering coattails to ride on.

[Mike]

I think you're right Jim, that a lot of things Grant advocated for are
much more easily found on bikes today than they were say 10yrs ago.

Along those lines, check this out:

http://vimeo.com/41872915

--mike

[Pondero]

Jim, not quite finished with the book yet, but had the exact same reaction.

 

Regarding your comment about living in a lucky bubble, and relatively few obvious faux-racers, I've noticed that I tend to instinctively congregate with those with shared interests.  No arguments against the improved market situation at all, but perhaps we simply find one another.  This became quite apparent last weekend when I found myself finishing a longish ride traveling the opposite direction on the same road as the MS-150 charity ride.  My guess is that there are huge numbers of bicycle rides that would enjoy the ride more if they'd read, "Just Ride".

[Alex Moll]

Good insight, Jim - and I agree with you. I don't think many in the
industry, or the hobby, or the lifestyle, realize how big an influence
Grant has had. He dropped a pebble in a pond, that just continues to
ripple out. I doubt Grant himself realizes the scope of his
contributions. I do, and I certainly appreciate all that he has done
(I know I'm preaching to the choir now.)

Cheers,

Alex Moll
Marysville, WA - looking forward to meeting Grant this Friday.

[Addison Wilhite]

I had a similar reaction that I wrote about here after the 2012 NAHBS:

http://reno-rambler.blogspot.com/2012/03/reflections-on-north-american-

handmade.html

Although I had certainly been thinking about it prior to this year...

Cheers,

--
Addison
http://reno-rambler.blogspot.com

[PATRICK MOORE]

Good points by Jim and Addison. Grant certainly was at the start of a
sea change over the last 10+ years in the bike industry -- I remember
when Rivendell was the only source (at least, the only one relatively
easy to find) for Brooks saddles and Carradice saddlebags and one of
the few voices promoting steel and friction shifting.

It's good to see photos of steel road bikes, too. That is one niche
that Rivendell has gradually moved away from, tho' they jumped back
quite a way with the Roadeo. By road bikes I mean the traditional
gofast bike meant for riding on pavement, much like the pre-crit stage
racer types commonly available up to the '80s, not all rounder types
like the Sam Hillborne. Those old racing bikes were wonderful bikes --
in my little mind, anyway, they overlap with the Japanese sports
tourers of the '80s, but my preference has always been for a
lightweight steel road bike with room for 28s and fenders, long stays
but quicker handling. I see in one of Addison's photos that Richard
Sachs makes even modern road components look almost pretty!

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 8:04 AM, Addison Wilhite
<addison...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I had a similar reaction that I wrote about here after the 2012 NAHBS:
>
> http://reno-rambler.blogspot.com/2012/03/reflections-on-north-american-
> handmade.html
>

--

-------------------------
Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
-------------------------

A billion stars go spinning through the night
Blazing high above your head;
But in you is the Presence that will be
When all the stars are dead.

Rainer Maria Rilke, Buddha in Glory

[Tim McNamara]

On May 10, 2012, at 9:21 AM, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
>
> Good points by Jim and Addison. Grant certainly was at the start of a
> sea change over the last 10+ years in the bike industry

True enough although Grant's impact goes back to the B-stone days and it just took a while for the larger industry to catch up with the fact that he had found resonance with a decent sized section of cyclers. I think that he has had a surprising impact on the bike industry over the years, given he runs a tiny bike business in a suburb of San Francisco.

In line with "Just Ride" and Jim's comments, check out the serendipitous Calvin & Hobbes for 5/10/12:

http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/

[Allan in Portland]

On Wednesday, May 9, 2012 11:15:32 PM UTC-7, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:

<snip>

but that Grant gave voice to a backlash movement and opened a long-neglected market

Hmm.  This isn't to take anything away from Grant, but I think Grant was more a keeper-of-the-flame than prophet or apostle. The distinction, to my mind, concerns causality. The precise stats get fuzzy for me, but the trends I remember well -- fuel consumption and miles driven in the US are below something like 10 years ago and on a per-capita basis it's even worse. Looking at motor vehicle travel one would think it's the recession of 1980-82 all over again.

So, have practical bikes come back into vogue because people have been converted to that _style of bike_, or has that style of bike come back into vogue because people are feeling a marked economic pinch (among a few other macro themes like environmental sustainability and diminishing to the point of negative returns of sprawl and now urban blow-back) and that _style of riding_ (ie. transportation) makes the practical bike vogue? I submit it is the latter.

In simpler terms -- yes, absolutely Grant was country bike before country bike was cool. :-) But the country bike became cool not so much because of Grant (again not diminishing his impressive contributions), but because the environment had changed to make the country bike superior. Mammals over dinos if you will.

Regards,
-Allan

[Allan in Portland]

... Mammals over dinos if you will, and in contrast to Protestants over Catholics (nb. Martin Luther).

-Allan

Regards,
-Allan

[Esteban]

Jim, you're making me eager to read it.  The thought just occurred to me, reading the responses.  Jitensha Studio opens in 1982.  Grant works at REI, rides competitively... hangs out at Hiroshi's shop.  Lots of other people around, I'm sure - influences.  Bridgestone happens.  Hiroshi's daughter Natsumi names Robert "Pineapple Bob."  Riding was fun and equipment sensible.  Riding changes, equipment changes - but sensibility stays the same.  Riv starts.  Racing takes over.  Grant persists. Then finally the industry begins to respond - only I'd say in the last 5 years - with sensible steel.  Just ride - makes sense more now than ever.

Esteban

San Diego, Calif.

On Wednesday, May 9, 2012 11:15:32 PM UTC-7, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:

[PATRICK MOORE]

I bought a '92 XO-1 in 1993 and at that point became aware of
Bridgestone/Grant/the iconoclasm that became part of Rivendell. I
joined the BOB in 1993, got on the early Riv mailing list in 1994 and
ordered my first frame at the end of that year. I was pretty aware of
what was on the mainstream market -- mountain bikes and steel/aluminum
racing bikes plus some decent but wholly uninspired hybrids (the
original 4130 Crossroads Cruz wasn't bad for the price; I owned one).
There was far less imaginative and creative product development for
bikes that weren't mountain bikes where all the energy seemed to be
going -- remember the common complaint about the death of the road
bike market?

Moreover, people whose principal motive for buying a new bike is that
gas is too high don't drive the sort of creativity that we saw in
Addison's and others' photos and with Surley, Salsa, and all the
others I can't now remember, let alone Rivendell.

I really think Grant not only kept the flame alive but sparked new
fires among all those in the cycling world who got bored with high
travel suspension and lighter than ever racing bikes.

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[Mike]

Received my copy of Just Ride via the brown pony a couple of hours
ago. So much good stuff. I liked the ending of chapter 19--Don't be
cheap and dead.

I also love the illustrations. I have a feeling it'll be a pretty big
seller at Powell's here in Portland for a few weeks. Nice that it came
out before summer. If it's really slow at work I may take an extended
lunch break and go down to Powell's to hear him. We'll see.

--mike

[Alex Moll]

Go - it was fun to hear him this evening in Seattle. Glad I went.
Alex

[Alex Moll]

Go - it was fun to hear him this evening in Seattle. Glad I went.
Alex


On May 11, 7:42 pm, Mike <mjawn...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Frank]

I'm with Alex: go. It was a nice event in Seattle, a great way to support a local business (in our case Kathleen and Freerange Cycles), and a pleasure to hear Grant speak. His talk was, as you'd expect, low key, open, and appropriately opinionated, but sort of delivered at perfect pitch. Grant makes bikes get built and doesn't do book tour talks each day, but he's pretty good at both.

Many of us on this list have learned more than we might realize over the years about "un-racing" ourselves, and that's the point of the book. I was struck by the notion that if I simply gave a copy of this book to anyone who, noticing that I ride a lot, and presuming some degree of correlative expertise, inevitably asks me for bicycling advice. Happens at least once a week.  If they started off with this book and nothing more, they'd find themselves well served. I ordered four more copies for just that reason this morning, and will keep one on the bike (you know, I have a place for it, being a guy who rides with bags and all) to give away when warranted, sort of like carrying an extra tube for someone who didn't.

My 9-year old took my dog-eared copy into the fray and came out with an inscription that said "George, I hope this gets you off to a good start. Grant". Seemed like the right thing to say.

[Lawnsbyt]

I'm so bummed I couldn't make it to see Grant last night, had to be at
work and all. How did the ride go? Hope he enjoyed seeing that part
of Seattle.

[Brian Hanson]

The ride worked out well.  Grant had to leave for the airport by 7:30, so we had to cut out the out and back to Golden Gardens, but the ride to the locks, and back along both sides of the canal was really pleasant.  We didn't have much foot traffic to contend with when crossing the locks, and even got a short stretch of dirt along the railroad track in...

Brian

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[Mojo]

I am in the boonies of western Colorado so will not get to see the GGBT (great Grant book tour).

 

But I am enjoying the book. Being a Riv member since 1995 I have heard most (all?) of it before. But still what a great viewpoint of a simple fun semi-exercise. He describes all the negative things that racing has brought to cycling. He describes in detail the fun there is to be had for the "Unracer." I have said in the recent past that I am no longer a cyclist, I am a bike rider. Now I know, I am an Unracer!

 

Its a simple but well though out book that leaves me feeling good when I put it down. Oh and the mini-chapter format is perfect for pre-sleep reading or for reading material in the bathroom (forgive me for that please). I have already given one copy away to a friend.

[Rob]

I was thinking the exact same thing Alex, after the talk and ride Friday night. Certainly Grant has had a huge influence on my own thinking about bicycles, and that's wafted its way into my thinking about architecture as well. 

Rob in Seattle

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Just Ride was on my mind yesterday when I tried to help a woman decide on her first nice bike. She wants a sporty-ish bike for Burley-pulling and it would be nice if it had a rack. Easy enough. But she's also athletic and aspires to the racer archetype. I should add that she's the type of woman that most men would notice in any crowd, which means that various bike dudes have tried to "help" her with all sorts of advice. All the usual suspects were present: the necessity and efficiency of clipless pedals, the magical properties of carbon, and the (baffling-to-me) popularity of time-trial bikes, none of which are necessary, or even desirable, in a bike for daily errands and family rides. Anyway, she was clearly struggling with the perceived compromises between making a bike useful and making a bike fast (or at least light/expensive enough to impress the racer wannabe crowd). I thought to myself: this would be a lot easier if she could drop the racer notions and stop hanging out with guys who read Bicycling Magazine as a comprehensive source of cycling wisdom.

[Joe K]

On May 17, 9:09 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>
wrote:

I thought to myself: this would be a lot easier if she could drop
> the racer notions and stop hanging out with guys who read Bicycling
> Magazine as a comprehensive source of cycling wisdom.
>

Not to hijack this thread, but I wonder if Bicycling Mag is going to
concede the commuter/casual rider market to new mags like Momentum, or
if they are going to start to pivot in their POV to include that
market too. (Not that I've read any Bicycling lately; maybe they're
already addressing this.)

Joe

[Frank]

Jim,

Nice to hear your perspective as a shop owner. Your name and Hiawatha came up in a conversation last night at a ball field here in Seattle during a discussion with one of the fathers of a boy on my son's team, who asked me about "getting a good road bike". I am in no way affiliated with the bicycle industry other than as a reformed racer and someone who now rides for fun and utility and who works on Bike Trains and Ride to School programs, but since I'm seen on a bike often, there's a pre-supposition that I "know".

I ordered 6 copies of Just Ride to hand out precisely because I don't "know", and they arrived yesterday afternoon, so I was fortunate enough to have one on hand at the ball yard. I listened for a bit, and then simply handed the book over and said "Keep it and pass it on if you find it useful, but most of what you need to think about is in here". 

I admit that I was thrilled to have a way to shorten the typical discussion I end up having, and to matador the whole thing off to Grant via the book; there's something validating when someone take the time to really make a thing, and in book format, Grant's advice carries more weight than if I were to say many of the same things. He was intrigued by the book, and I'm confident that while it might dovetail with his notions, it will certainly reduce the probability of him ending up on a Madone, and that's a good thing.

And back to Hiawatha. The gentlemen with whom I was speaking went to college in Minneapolis, and told me in passing that where he came from "you couldn't ride at all in the winter or you'd die". I told him about your shop, your blog, and suggested that in the ensuing 20 years the industry had evolved and now offered sensible alternatives to "Death by Bike in Minneapolis". 

One last thing. Grant was very complimentary of the Surly LHT in his talk in Seattle, holding it up as an example of a sound, sensible, and useful bicycle. I know you're a dealer, and thought I'd mention that I bought a 42 cm complete for my then 8-year old (bit of a stretch then), which he rides to school every day with a Burley Cargo trailer hauling a trumpet case, messenger bag, rain gear, and whatever else need to go to school each day. The bike has been phenomenal, and he's now nearly 12 and still on the same frame with no trouble. Amortized over the life of the bike, and guessing that he'll get another 2 years out of it with a stem change, it was a great deal. It's been knocked over, banged around, dropped in just about every way possible, and it's still going strong. That thing is a tank, and an excellent option for any mature kid who likes to ride and does.

[GeorgeS]

Wait! Bicycling is NOT the source of all 2-wheel wisdom? I want my
money back.
GeorgeS

On May 17, 8:09 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>
wrote:

[EricP]

All $10 or so bucks?  (I think that's the going rate.  I actually am receiving it as a gift from my mother.  There have been a couple of semi-interesting articles recently.  At one point, thought they were going to focus more on commuting and touring, but appears not.

 

Momentum mag is better, but unless you subscribe or luck out to be near a shop that carries it, it's basically impossible to find.

 

Oh, and 20 years ago, while not impossible to ride bike in Minneapolis, it was tougher.  Almost no bike paths, no studded tires and freewheels that would stop working under zero.

 

Finished my Kindle version of the book yesterday.  Besides my one paper copy, might pick up another (or two) to give to friends.  Yes, it's that good.

 

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I read the last issue of Momentum online after the Riv ad was linked.
Is it always available online for free?

Toshi

[Allan in Portland]

Don't leave us hanging... did she opt for a relaxed fit Surly to pull her Burley?

Also, I had a very similar experience, this week, in fact. In July a group of middle-aged women are coming down from Vancouver to do a ride. Their plan was the Willamette Valley the first half of the week and then out the Columbia River Gorge the second half. They are hiring me to shuttle them from Eugene to Portland mid-week and then The Dalles to Portland at the end of the week. While I try to keep route kibitzing to a minimum, their original plan was that I would take them from Eugene to about 40 miles west of Portland. This would allow them to "get more miles in" for their ride to The Dalles, which is east of Portland.

I graciously explained their intended point 40 miles west of Portland wasn't going to offer much of anything different in scenery or terrain from the previous ~120 they did to get to Eugene, but that it would have them pedaling about 30 miles of suburban semi-sprawl as they come-and-go through Portland's outer bedroom communities. My suggestion was they use the day as an option day to allow people to split into smaller groups (there are 13 of them total) and sight-see around Portland-proper. They can hit coffee shops, restaurants, taco carts, dive bars, strip clubs, whatever is their fancy. And the racers can ride the Spring Water Trail or Marine Drive or both to get their "miles in."
In the end, I think it was the strip clubs that convinced them to take the rest day.

It is a strange, though common occurrence that people come all the way out to Oregon to ride, but then do not spend any time riding around Portland because, hey, sight-seeing is "junk miles."

-Allan

[redsydude]

"... I am in no way affiliated with the bicycle industry other than as

a reformed racer and someone who now rides for fun and utility and
who works on Bike Trains and Ride to School programs, but since I'm

seen on a bike often, there's a pre-supposition that I "know".... "

This made me recall an interview with Fred Couples, years ago, where
he mentioned that his wife was taking golf lessons from a local club
pro. The interviewer asked why Fred didn't giver her lessons himself
and he said something like, 'yeah, you know, I don't really know that
much about the golf swing'.

> >> have done it without some pioneering coattails to ride on.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Robert F. Harrison]

Geez Allan. I don't recall you mentioning the strip clubs to me last week. I ended up spending all my money at art museums and such. Sigh. 

I did however ride around Portland a bit, several times. A bike ride is a bike ride. :-)

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[Aaron Thomas]

Jim,

As someone who straddles the line between Rivendellish sensibilities and club rider hammering, I can relate to the seemingly divergent desires of your customer. And I wonder whether there needs to be such a stark dichotomy drawn between a "practical" bike and one suitable for fitness-oriented clubby rides.

Others have suggested a Surly LHT. My thought is another: why not one of the new Surly Pacers, which are designed for standard reach brakes? It could be built up in a racy, weight-conscious way with a smart mix of Ritchey or FSA parts and a SRAM Apex or Rival gruppo. A Burly could be affixed when necessary. And I'm blanking now, but aren't there pedals out there that have simultaneous clipless and regular shoe capabilities? 

Perhaps she could be outfitted with two wheelsets, one with some Jack Browns for Burly duties, the other with some "sensible" (to me) 25mm performance tires, such as Michelin Krylion or Panaracer Type-D.

The only thing that might get in the way of a truly dual-purpose Pacer would be the rack, which would add unnecessary weight and drag when used for club rides.

Sounds good to me. Wouldn't mind one myself!

Aaron

[Peter Morgano]

I think that part of the issue is racy weight conscious 25mm tire riders probably aren't looking at rivendell or surly since they have aspirations to be "fast" in the club.  I banish them to madone land,  hahaha.  Sometimes you can't have it all,  why not just 2 bikes that each serve a purpose they were built for. There is enough room in even my tiny brooklyn apt for two dedicated rigs,  but neither one is for racing,  I leave that to the lance wanna bes out there in their team kit crouched over tiny plastic bikes.

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[Allan in Portland]

Well, it's not about the equipment. It's the motivations of the person picking the equipment. Biking has become associated with fitness and competition. Riding for fun and enjoyment comes in a distant second place in a lot of people's minds. This has meant a lot of people out there are miserable when riding their bikes. It has become a chore, or something they feel they have to do, like eating broccoli. It has also meant even more people have simply stayed away from riding altogether because they think it has to be a miserable, character-building endeavor.

The point of Grant's talk (I haven't read the book yet) is to free people of these ill-conceived notions. I can't decided if this is lame or not, but I'm thinking it might be apt to summarize Grant's goal as Zen and the Art of Bicycle Riding. If you're not at peace with how you ride, you're doing it wrong.

Trying to straddle some line between practical and fitness is probably still missing the point. (Though not necessarily, so please don't take offense, I'm not trying to call you out) One should only ride that which they enjoy. There shouldn't be trade-offs or balancing acts figuring one's enjoyment. Choosing to get beat-up less on 25 mm tires to go 1 mph faster, instead of 23 mm tires to go 2 mph faster is still doing it wrong. Everyone's sole and unequivocal condition should be don't get beat-up by your tires. After that is met, who cares about width? It is what it is.

Hope this doesn't come across too preachy.

Regards,

-Allan

[Peter Morgano]

Preaching to the choir man,  rode plastic bikes for years for how light and perceived "fast" they were.  Always uncomfortable,  now feel liberated on my 42s getting passed by team kit getting ready for the tour in their minds.

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[Pondero]

Totally on board with the ride for fun philosophy, but I also suspect that some of those in-training racer folks are actually having fun.  That was me 10 years ago.  But what fun is to me has changed.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

The woman in question didn't buy a bike from me yet, but the Pacer, Cross-check, and San Marcos were the three I showed her. Most of the problem is not "speed", but wanting to fit in with the clubby roadies she imagines she'll ride with someday. And those guys have preached a different sort of gospel about carbon being a magical substance that makes everything about bike riding better. I used to ride my Atlantis with 50 mm Big Apples, fenders, a rack, a grocery pannier, and flat pedals on a weekly ride like that. At least half my conversations on those rides involved my companions trying to sell me on the trappings of the faux-racer. And I was the one who was selling bikes as a job (pre-HC days).

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

I can't know her (or anyone else's!!!) motivation, desires, intention or financial situation, but it just seems that buying a good middle of the road do-everything versatile bike for a first "adult" bike is a good idea. Try it out in a bunch of different situations; club rides, commuting, CC touring, rough-stuff. Then find out what you really like and more importantly what you really are using it for. Then buy a bike that's a bit more specialized in that area. Either keep the original bike for a back up to the dedicated one, or sell it to subsidize the new one. Everyone's a winner!

I'd throw the Gunnar "Sport" for a MUSA brand and the Black Mountain Cycles "Road" as an indie brand into the mix as well.

Of course contrary to what I think is best, most people in this situation end up w/ a racey Tre-iant-alized.

[Bruce Herbitter]

A local riding buddy has a Riv'd out Surly Pacer and it is a dynamite bike. Originally done in black it was just powder coated custard at Spectrum and looks nice. Rides great too.  Maybe he'll post a picture.

 

Needs lugs though.... :)

On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Aaron Thomas <aaron.a...@gmail.com> wrote:

Jim,

 

[Toshi Takeuchi]

Buy the Pacer frame and build it up as a 650b. It's a super bike (700c
or 650b)! I'm sure the Cross Check and Long Haul Trucker are great
bikes as well. I tell my friends to find one of those used on
Craigslist as a great starter bike.

Toshi

[PATRICK MOORE]

Segwaying (that's sorta like sashaying) off this thread, I have to add
that there is a great deal to be said for a stripped down,
skinny-tired, low-bar'd gofast bike, and double that if said gofast is
a Rivendell. Most of my riding is expanded errand or "get to" riding
for which I ride my Riv commuter or the Fargo, but I've been making
myself ride the '99 gofast fixie and it is, in a word, a wonderful new
discovery every time I take it out again. I just got back from an hour
ride about town (Rio Rancho, NW of Albuquerque, so hilly and breezy),
the only "make work" errand being to stop at the PO to pick up Mom's
mail (in my Dubonnet Velo Retro musette that I keep folded tiny in the
Banana Bag). I deliberately detoured to take in some hills -- about 6
miles uphill, varying grades, out of the total 13.3. The gofast fits
so well with bar 3 cm below saddle -- giving me a wonderfully powerful
and torque-y riding position when I have to push the 75" uphill or
against wind. Yet I can comfortably stay in the hooks for 5-7 miles
non-stop.

I know it is easier to pedal despite the higher gear and it certainly
is easier to get uphill; and since riding uphill on a fixed gear is --
for me -- one of the great pleasures of cycling, so a Riv that is very
light and aero (try pushing a 29" tall, 2.3" wide tire against a
strong headwind!) is a joy to ride. (The gofast's wheels are 24.5"
tall and sub 1" wide: 85/90 is adequate for my 175 lb even on mediocre
roads.)

I have slowly arrived at the point, age 57, where I no longer feel
obliged to push 20 mph out of the driveway and where I don't feel a
ride wasted if I am not feeling ill by the time I get home -- I can
ride moderately and easily enough to warm up for the short, 10-to-35
mile rides that are typical. But dammit, it *is* nice to have a bike
that encourages energetic riding -- invites you by its position and
"feel" to push hard up a hill or to get low and aero on a windy flat.

This sort of riding and bike are wholly Rivendellian, IMO.

[Justin August]

Shouldn't we all just be having fun when we ride?

If 23mm tires and carbon is truly, in a zen way, fun for you: do it!
Mirrors, panniers, bags, steel? Do it.
650b fixed gear 70s racer to townie conversion? Do it! (I do!)

Much like underwear, as long as its not chafing others who cares what other people are doing as long as we're all having fun?

-J

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Corollary to Justin's excellent point of 'whatever makes you happy is nobody else's business', I think Grant is saying 'don't be bullied into conformity by popular bike culture, particularly by unrealistic racing fantasies'. Sometimes I think Grant likes to humorously needle even conformity with the Riv aesthetic, which he does by running non-boutique, sometimes even blatantly cheap components, having bikes that are well "beausaged" (aka beat up), putting kickstand feet on his bar-end shifters, etc. In any case, the point is to do your own thing and be skeptical of others' opinions.

Underlying all this, there is the sense that the bike industry channels us into a choice between "serious" sport bikes or geekier, less cool options, with little in between. Of course, the bike world has changed a lot in the past 5-10 years, and now there are choices in bicycles and gear available to suit almost any taste or personality.

[Justin August]

Jim-
Thanks! You're one of the folks who steered me and my family towards Riv and Surly. I just emailed GP because the Kindle version has his name as "Grant Persen" on the title page. Hopefully they fix it and push it out to us nonpaper folks. I wish I could have purchased an electronic version not through Amazon though!

-J

[Andy Smitty Schmidt]

In the long distance hiking community there's a saying "Hike your own hike." It applies equally well to bikes. --Andy

[lungimsam]

I have really enjoyed this book and learned alooooooot!
I like the way Grant gives good ole' bike knowledge in simple, plain
old English.
Makes learning about, setting up, maintaining, and riding a bike fun
again.

I have been caught up in a whirlwind of modern race bike confusion for
the last three years and just decided this 4th year of riding that I
would ride for fun miles, and not care what my average speed is. I
just ride for fun and commuting and enjoyment and to see the beauty of
God's creation. I also escort my wife to work as she likes to commute,
so there is even more time on the bike for fun. I love it! Bike riding
is fun again!

Later, I found the Rivbike site and read their velosophy on bike
design and riding for fun, I was like "Yes, now this is what I'm
talking about!".

So when I saw the book was coming out, I was glad to buy one. I am
almost done the book now, wish it could go on. I have been
highlighting it all over and look forward to rereading it. Has so much
great info in there. Thanks Grant for the fun and informative read!

[jimD]

I haven't read the book yet.

I've ridden bikes for more years than I admit, most of that was 'club' type riding with friends. The focus was on fitness and speed. As I aged that became less fulfilling and I rode less and started avoiding the climbs.
Discovering Rivendell six or so years ago was the renaissance of bicycling for me. These days I ride mostly for fun but try to maintain 'century' fitness. I have an ideal commute and seldom drive to and from work. I ride more than I ever did in my club/sport days and enjoy it more.

From my perspective, Grant is on a worthy mission with 'Just Ride'.

-JimD

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[PATRICK MOORE]

"Ideal commute." What is yours?

Mine would be: ~ 10 miles one way, no big hills or regular winds
outbound, some hills to climb on the return to make things
interesting; much if not all on a wooded, paved and (at the commute
times of day) little used bike path.

[Aside: I was annoyed when I commuted 15-16 miles one way, outbound
with 7 miles uphill, to find that my inbound, homeward times were no
different from outbound. But I realized that this is a penalty of
riding fixed: you don't make up a great deal of time on the
downhills.]

Segwaying: I differ from many in liking to ride -- well, "hard" is
putting too much stress on it; let's say "energetically." OTOH, I also
like short rides: I get bored after about an hour, usually -- must try
to ride with others, more, for longer distance interest. IOW, my
personal application of the "just ride" philosophy is to ride until I
sweat and breath heavily, even if only for a 11 mile rt to the grocery
store.

Last week, an ideal day: 12 miles home to Mom's via Mom's PO; 11 miles
Mom to home; 8.5 miles home to church for Council meeting; 8.5 miles
church back home; total 40 miles (diligently tracked on Cyclemeter on
my iPhone), of which 28 on the Fargo, the rest on the '03 Curt.

--

-------------------------
Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
-------------------------

A billion stars go spinning through the night
Blazing high above your head;
But in you is the Presence that will be
When all the stars are dead.

Rainer Maria Rilke, Buddha in Glory

[robert zeidler]

Mine is about 35 miles one way. About 3500 ft of climbing coming home and finishing with a 2 mile 8% hill. 

Needless to say it doesn't happen more than 3 times a week. 

[PATRICK MOORE]

I am impressed: 2 miles of 8% is no easy walk! Not to mention 35
miles. I'd want to do 35 miles on the bike and find another way for
the return (I'd often take a detour one or both ways to add up to 10
miles for a total of 40 rt, but that wasn't something I'd do 5 days a
week, week in and out. Age? I did this mostly between early '40s and
early '50s, but by 53 I was copping out and catching the Express bus
for the last 7 miles home. Now, I work at home and have to make
errands for riding -- I find it easier to ride if I have a "practical"
destination.

In my mid 30s I knew a BIA lawyer, younger than I, who once a week
rode from his house in Gallup, NM to his office at the Navajo Nation
capital of Window Rock, and that was only 30 miles. Once a week was
all he could manage, and that only in summer.

[robert zeidler]

I'm 55 and it sucks almost every time I ride it!  Some days I'm hoping someone I know will pass me and offer me a ride. 

Strangely, on my Riv custom a 39 x 30 does me just fine. But I have a Seven which is a good 8 lbs lighter and I can blow up the hill in a. 39 x 23. Go figure. 

[PATRICK MOORE]

Oh, weight, beyond a certain point, does indeed matter, as do light
wheels when you have appreciable climbing. I plod contentedly up even
steep hills with the amazingly heavy Big Apple Fargo wheels, dropping
into the 36X34 at the steepest parts when pressures are sub 20 psi and
I have a load, but on the gofast, with wheels that are, I kid not,
three lb lighter, with bike almost 15 lb lighter, I certainly can feel
the advantage and climb surprising things in the 75". I am very aware
of climbing performance, climbing hills as I do in relatively high
fixed gears.

[Patrick in VT]

On May 18, 8:18 am, Pondero <cj.spin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Totally on board with the ride for fun philosophy, but I also suspect that
> some of those in-training racer folks are actually having fun.

Agreed. Almost every racer I know has a lot of fun doing it. And
despite certain preferences (some misguided, for sure), a lot of
racers are actually pretty passionate about cycling in general which
is a good thing. Whether we kike it or not, cycling is still a sport
and it's not just "lance wannabes" who do it - the vast majority of
people will never race anywhere near the elite level, let alone pro
level. But they do anyway because it's fun to challenge yourself and
participate in something. It's no different than any other physical
endeavor - you can take it as far as you want.

There's a marathon in Burlington, VT this weekend - the event is about
as a good of an example as you can get of people of different
abilities challenging themselves in the same "race." 99% of the
people who line up know they will not win the race. 100% are there to
prove something to themselves without regard for winning or losing -
just finishing, or setting a personal record (the "PR") will be a big
deal. it's very similar to randonneuring. bike racing is the same.
it's all the same - we set goals and take steps to achieve them.
whatever keeps people inspired and motivated, more power to them.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

When I first started cycling as an adult, I purchased a $430 big-brand "hybrid" style bike that was god-awful ugly but served my novice self perfectly as a commuter and general transportation/recreation machine. But when I decided that I was committed enough to bikes to get something fancier/cooler, the big-brand shop didn't have any upgrades that weren't racing-style bikes or suspended MTBs. The message was clear: the only way to be a serious cyclist was to aspire to the racing image and racing paradigms. I knew that probably was not ever going to be my cup of tea. The ensuing internet research led me to conclude that a touring bike was what I really wanted, but the only one likely to be found locally was the Trek 520, and none of the local shops I called had one in stock. Eventually, I "discovered" and purchased an Atlantis. That was my first truly good bike, and even though I no longer own it, it has influenced all my subsequent ideas about bikes.

Anyway, I agree that some people who own race bikes and related kit are probably stimulated by that aspect of cycling. BUT, how many of them went that direction because of peer pressure or because they didn't know of other options?

[Peter Pesce]

Exactly. What if every shoe store in America only sold running shoes and hiking boots? And the staff looked at you cross-eyed if you dared  suggest you might want to do anything but run or hike. You'd have to dig deep into the dark corners of some internet "sub-culture" to buy loafers, or sandals!

[Patrick in VT]

On May 21, 12:03 pm, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery

<thill....@gmail.com> wrote:

> Anyway, I agree that some people who own race bikes and related kit are
> probably stimulated by that aspect of cycling. BUT, how many of them went
> that direction because of peer pressure or because they didn't know of
> other options?

I don't think there are any shortcuts to finding the stuff that
"works" for us, as individuals. It takes a lot of trial and error and
a willingness to try new things and think outside of the box before we
find the stuff that really sings. Lack of options is certainly a
problem - I suspect that for some of us, most bike shops are mostly
irrelevant. But for others just getting into cycling, it's a
perfectly adequate place to start. Peer pressure is an issue too, no
doubt. But "knowing" that there are other options and learning that
what works for Joe may not work for Jim only comes with experience and
at some point we take control of our decisions about what to ride.

it's not a coincidence that many older, experienced riders (racers
included) have some of the smarter (IMO), more personalized bikes
around. same with bike mechanics, who tend to have lots of experience
with different bikes/components. there's no real substitute for
experience, passion and critical thinking - but how many people are
willing to go that far in their decision making process, especially
with something that only amounts to a peripheral hobby? a lot of
people simply don't care that much and are happy (or content, at
least) with that big brand hybrid or whatever. they're certainly not
debating low-trail, frame flex, tire clearance, etc.

the fact that you "discovered" an Atlantis says more about you and
your approach to exploring something you enjoy doing than anything
else. most folks on this list probably don't just "scratch the
surface" of things they really like doing. that's a unique trait and
the mass-market is never going favor it - it much prefers hobbyist
contentment.

Anyway, this subject is interesting to me because i'm going through
the "learning" process now with running - i look at running shoes in
an entirely different way now that i'm developing some clear
preferences from my running experience and I'm finding options that i
simply never knew about or even considered before. There are many
parallels to cycling.

[Peter Morgano]

Peer pressure might be a big part of it but the same can also be said for the "fixie" or "29er" crazes. I know a few  years ago my LBS was full of muscle heads who were interested in going down a hill really fast who how now gone back to the gym or tanning booths where they came from. For me it isnt the gear or the marketing that annoys me about "racing  bikes" but the riders, sad to say. Here in NYC they ride around in their team kit weaving in and out of slower riders and shouting at people who are in their way, its really annoying and dangerous too. They are just truly aggravating and therefore build an animosity in most of us "unracers." Had a nice talk with two girls on their LHTs who were expressing the same concerns the other day, we have all just had it with their pretend racing dreams and acting like arrogant jerks out there.  For the record I don't have anything against actual racing cyclists, my uncle was a competitive rider for 10 years and still does 20 miles before work at 5am at age 50, the only shame is he is 6'6" so I cant borrow any of his fancy racing rigs or I definitely would take them out for a spin. I cant deny that the speed of a sub 20 bike is fun but certainly not comfy or practical for me to actually own.  Long story short, if you have racing dreams, please feel free to pursue them but dont shout at the delivery guys who are in your way because you are "training" and dont tell me my bike is slow, I am the one who is slow, haha.

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[Brewster Fong]

On Monday, May 21, 2012 9:03:40 AM UTC-7, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:

When I first started cycling as an adult, I purchased a $430 big-brand "hybrid" style bike that was god-awful ugly but served my novice self perfectly as a commuter and general transportation/recreation machine. But when I decided that I was committed enough to bikes to get something fancier/cooler, the big-brand shop didn't have any upgrades that weren't racing-style bikes or suspended MTBs. The message was clear: the only way to be a serious cyclist was to aspire to the racing image and racing paradigms. I knew that probably was not ever going to be my cup of tea. The ensuing internet research led me to conclude that a touring bike was what I really wanted, but the only one likely to be found locally was the Trek 520, and none of the local shops I called had one in stock. Eventually, I "discovered" and purchased an Atlantis. That was my first truly good bike, and even though I no longer own it, it has influenced all my subsequent ideas about bikes.

Jim, you don't say how old you are, but I'm betting you're quite a bit younger than me (I'm in my mid-50s). What you may not realize is that most LBS stopped selling or at least reduced their inventory of "touring-style" bikes in the early to mid-80s or when mtb starting becoming popular. I recall Sheldon Brown saying that it took like 2-3 years to sell off well made and reasonable touring style bikes because nobody wanted them.

 

Basically, in the 90s, everyone wanted either a mtb or racing-style bike. The only exception as you noted was Trek with its 520. Riv came along and found the niche and offered touring style to fill that void. Of course, their first bike, the Riv Standard was more "racy" with short reach brakes and clearance for only 28mm tires than their current offering. I guess you could say its been evolving.

 

Then again, I still don't get two top tubes for a 56cm frame, but that another issue....Good Luck!

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I'm 35, so I missed the bargains on touring bikes in the mid 80s. Of course, mid 80s MTBs were generally pretty fair touring bikes themselves.

[Patrick in VT]

On May 21, 2:00 pm, Peter Morgano <uscpeter11...@gmail.com> wrote:
>For me it isnt the gear or the marketing that annoys me about "racing  bikes" but the
> riders, sad to say. Here in NYC they ride around in their team kit weaving
> in and out of slower riders and shouting at people who are in their way,
> its really annoying and dangerous too. They are just truly aggravating and
> therefore build an animosity in most of us "unracers."

completely understandable. attitude counts. there's no excuse for
being a jerk. i'm fortunate to be in a scene where most of the local
pro's and competitive riders (and we have our share) are super nice
and respectful on and off the road. interestingly enough, i find that
it's usually the lower level amateur racers that are the most aggro/
obnoxious. there seems to be a real mutual respect for others at the
higher levels.

[PATRICK MOORE]

My experience, too. Albuquerque has a very extensive cycling
population among whom are many racers. I've "caught up" to or
otherwise ridden with several of the higher level ones and they have
been uniformly polite; one sponsored man telling me, "hang on, if you
want." (I wanted but realized I couldn't, thereby saving myself much
needed humiliation.) The Masters-level captain of a local team rode
with me two or three times -- we lived in the same neighborhood. (This
was some years go; come to think of it, all of these instances were
~10 years ago which says something of the decline in my speed.) The
assholes have been, at least to first appearance and seeming ability,
neophytes, like the jerk who "drafted" me on the grocery-front-loaded
Herse, of all things (huge porteur bag stuffed with 25 lb) and, when I
expressed my annoyance, passed me on the *right* resulting in some
words from me -- as well as an attempt to draft *him* which succeeded
for a mile or so).

OTOH, I think ABQ has, probably just from the size of the cycling
population, all sorts including a large and lively "hilpster"
population. Just last week I passed two women on what looked to be
very high end Dutch bikes: glossy colors, colored balloon tires, hub
brakes, full fenders and chaincases, lighting: should have slowed to
talk but didn't think about it until half mile ahead.

The bike shops here carry a wide selection of different types; even
the high end racing shop nearby carried Amersterdams and Milanos in
addition to the $4500 carbon fiber 29ers and Cervelos. They do much of
my special ordering: SS stuff, dynamo stuff, 27 mm wide Synergy rims,
ooh'd and aah'd over the trike, built my SnoCat wheels, etc.

On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 1:55 PM, Patrick in VT <swin...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> completely understandable.  attitude counts.  there's no excuse for
> being a jerk.  i'm fortunate to be in a scene where most of the local
> pro's and competitive riders (and we have our share) are super nice
> and respectful on and off the road.  interestingly enough, i find that
> it's usually the lower level amateur racers that are the most aggro/
> obnoxious.  there seems to be a real mutual respect for others at the
> higher levels.
>

>

[Rambouilleting Utahn]

On May 21, 1:55 pm, Patrick in VT <swing4...@gmail.com> wrote:

> i find that
> it's usually the lower level amateur racers that are the most aggro/
> obnoxious.  there seems to be a real mutual respect for others at the
> higher levels.

I don't think biking is any different than any other sport in that
regards.

Look around a ski area, the sponsored skiers are usually rather
pleasant. The next rung down not so much so. Probably the biggest
reason I avoid Snowbird, too many "brobrahs"

[EricP]

Have had both racing type cyclists and folks I perceive as hardcore runners yell at me.   So it's not just bikes.

 

Mentioned this before, but I "discovered" Rivendell the day after I purchased a Bianchi Volpe at a local racer shop.  Mainly as a treat to myself for some weight loss.  Along with the fact that particular shop was one I used to dream about buying from.  Especially when they had a touring section in the early to mid 1980's. 

 

Am old enough to remember numerous folks riding mountain bikes as touring bikes back in those days.  An obscure magazine called Mountain Bike for the Adventure promoted the idea.  A very early version of bikepacking.

 

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

[Steven Frederick]

Man, that's an effective analogy!  I'm going to use that...

Steve, make mine loafers.

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[Steve Park]

Chapter 34 burpee reverse-ladder kicked my butt.

Amazing how a new exercise can make you feel out of shape all over again.

[Peter Morgano]

Funny when I was wrestling we called them squat thrusts, they were still a pain though, haha. But the most exerting exercise I remember was the duck walk where you obvioulsy squat down and walk like a duck but you have to hold you ankles while you do it, man everthing burned after a minute or two, havent been in that good of shape in at least 10 years as my wife is fond of reminding me :)

On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 1:09 PM, Steve Park <stev...@gmail.com> wrote:

Chapter 34 burpee reverse-ladder kicked my butt.

Amazing how a new exercise can make you feel out of shape all over again.

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