Sweepy bars, stem length, and climbing out of the saddle

[dane...@gmail.com]

Hey guys.

I have a longer reach bike with swept back (Velo Orange Granola Bars) and currently messing with stem length.  Started with a 110mm which puts the grips ahead of the head tube.  Standing climbing in that widest, farthest back position feels normal.  When switching to a 90mm stem (110 feels a little long for these bars) the grips come back behind the head tube a bit.  I always feel that climbing standing up, steeper hills especially (I mostly ride single speed and fixed) starts to feel a little weird once the grips start creeping behind the head tube.  I was thinking about trying the  riv billie bars also I know these come back quite a bit farther.  I assume a lot of you have a lot of experience with these kind of upright bars (albatross/bosco/billie/etc.) and wondering what your experience is with grips wayyy back behind head tube and bike handling specifically climbing? Thanks.

- Dan

New Jerz

[Patrick Moore]

I haven't tried any of the newer Riv sweepback bars -- experience limited to original Moustache and an early, Riv-designed or at least Riv-sourced wider North-Road design -- "Priest Bar"? -- but on both of these and on the original North Road type I always gripped the bar far inward of the ends of the bar; with the Moustache and North Road, just aft of the curves. Come to think of it, with the "square" sweepback bars brazed directly onto stems on rod braked roadsters, and these with short top tubes and very slack heads, it was utterly necessary to grip the bar ahead of the curves while standing and torquing.

I think that any attempt to get both comfortable, seated hand positions and a standing "grip" for torquing as up a hill while holding the ends of the bar is doomed to failure. At least (a more modest assertion) I can't imagine it.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Garth]

   Dan, Your frames handling is largely governed by it's design, namely the head angle and trail.... and the riders perceptivity in general.  Dave Moulton has lots of good stuff about bike design and handling. Going back further on your bike from what you say is only to make it feel more odd. It's best you read it yourself.

http://davesbikeblog.squarespace.com/blog/2009/10/5/the-evolution-of-frame-design-part-i-the-wheelbarrow-effect.html

http://davesbikeblog.squarespace.com/blog/2007/5/4/trail-fork-rake-and-a-little-bit-of-history.html

http://davesbikeblog.squarespace.com/blog/2007/4/9/head-angles-and-steering.html

  

[Paul Clifton]

I disagree with Patrick, and without having read the articles, I think I agree with Garth. It really depends on the frame. Swept back bars work better on some frames than others. A long top tube is helpful. I climb stand with Albatross and Bosco bars with my body up in between the grips without sliding my hands forward very much. A longer top tube makes that position, relative to the pedals, more similar to a bike with drop or straight bars, where the grips are more in line with or in front of the head tube. Bar width also matters some.

Paul in NW Arkansas

[Patrick Moore]

This is true, of course, but the other person was complaining of reach problems, and my comments reflected his remarks.

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 6:26 PM Paul Clifton <paulgc...@gmail.com> wrote:

.... It really depends on the frame. Swept back bars work better on some frames than others. A long top tube is helpful.

[Garth]

You can't image it with the frame designs you've been riding Patrick. Of course you hate swept back bars on your bikes, of course you consider that "sit up and beg". The frame reach is too darn short of reach for those bars. That square pegs don't fit into a round holes is obvious, they simply don't match. 

A frame with a much longer reach is where they function best, and even then, the design of the frame's handling will effect how those bars feel in all riding conditions. I have 2 distinctly different handling bikes, the Bombadil and a Franklin custom(sport/touring), both with long reaches, tall stack heights, 13cm stems and 56cm Alba bars set up the same way. I mostly ride at say a 45-65 degree angle. With drop bars on the Franklin it was much less than that. 

The Bomba up/down hill can feel like turning a wheelbarrow,  there is definite resistance to steering inputs wherever my hands are on the bar fore-aft.... while the Franklin feels completely neutral everywhere-all-the-time meaning the bike isn't offering much resistance to steering inputs. It's free and easy, slow/fast/up/downhill, I find this most intuitive. Same bar and stem, similar frame reach, two very different experiences. I ride both all the time.  Different bikes for different moods. 

I like Dave Moulton's depiction of a vertical pencil on a table. Turning left and right is very easy. Now tilt it back some and try steering left and right. The more tilt, the more resistant it feels to turning inputs, like a wheelbarrow.

The Bomba up until the last Clem/Hillybike designs, had the the longest reach of any Riv design per given frame size. It was the only Riv frame that would work for me with swept back bars because I know how much frame reach I prefer. I can see why people say they disliked the Alba, or swept bars in general. On a frame with not enough reach you can/may end up with too much weight/pressure on your hands and feel too upright, especially when you limit yourself to the bar ends. Add that with the design of the steering and a customers intangible expectations,  and you have all sorts of opinions expressed. 

So having swept back bars with plenty of reach is a totally different experience from "sit up and beg". Yeah ... you're begging for a better fitting bike... more frame reach please !   I remember riding English 3-speeds back in the day, gawd was that awful. Waaaay too short of reach , straight up riding and your knees almost hitting the bars. Quite unstable. How anyone put up/puts up with that is beyond me ! Ahahahahahaaaaaa !!!!  To each their own. 

[Patrick Moore]

It's very easy to imagine, and anyway the point in question doesn't really involved long top tubes, it simply refers to reach. The OP said that when he installed the bar on a long stem he could climb standing comfortably holding the grips, but when seated the grips were too far away. When he installed a shorter stem, he felt comfortable seated but standing to climb and holding the grips felt "weird." I counseled that holding forward of the grips while standing might solve the problem, and gave instances. Not rocket science.

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[Dan Vee]

Thanks for the responses guys.  

I agree that the longer reach measurement (relative to the bb) Defintely helps, which this bike does have.  I have ridden sweepier bars on bikes designed around drops and always felt weird to me.  Trail on this bike is around 65-69mm depending on tire size.   I suppose it does differ a little from a riv in chainstay length at 423mm with the sliding drop outs slammed forward but does have a 20mm to play with (423-443).  I’d assume that this could alter handling slightly too weight distribution wise.  

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 8:26 PM Paul Clifton <paulgc...@gmail.com> wrote:

I disagree with Patrick, and without having read the articles, I think I agree with Garth. It really depends on the frame. Swept back bars work better on some frames than others. A long top tube is helpful. I climb stand with Albatross and Bosco bars with my body up in between the grips without sliding my hands forward very much. A longer top tube makes that position, relative to the pedals, more similar to a bike with drop or straight bars, where the grips are more in line with or in front of the head tube. Bar width also matters some.

Paul in NW Arkansas

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[Dan Vee]

Hey. 

Just to clarify.  The frame  does have a longer “reach” number also to be used with a flat bar set up.  But yes I was saying that also. 

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